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Cadet 2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 00:06:55 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 12:13 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 00:13:58 -0400

Maybe you should try the soft approach first. RP had a discussion with a similar situation what do you do if they private mouths off to a sergeant in basic training or an active duty? Give them Article 15 or do you go talk to him first off-line see if there isn't any issues at home or with him? What if he is one of those suicidal types and if you treat him too harshly he may hurt himself? Find out was ticking in that person's mind. As far as ROTC, what disciplinary actions can you do to this person if you find out that this guy's just a dirtbag? Can he horseshoe be involuntarily separated by the recommendation have your ROTC commandant or his higher? I was in State OCS so if we messed up or were peered out, we went in front of the Commandant for a 2nd chance or were washed out of the OCS program.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 12:22 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 00:22:52 -0400

The problem you see with your other Cadets came to light because when they started acting this way, the higher level Cadets before you, and including your Cadre, NEVER enforced the standard and let them act this way. As for how to fix it, it won't be an easy road. There will be all kinds of head butting that will take place. I would say to pull all the Cadets into a group and have a quick talk on the down low.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 15 at 2017 12:30 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 15 May 2017 00:30:12 -0400

Showing up and being motivated are not options for leaders. If certain individuals think it is optional, then you have a leadership problem in your ROTC unit that goes to the highest levels. I always thought in these terms; If I cross the line of departure 5 minutes late, that gives the enemy 5 minutes to regain his composure from prepatory fires. Marines die that did not have to. You cannot fix the entire unit, but you can fix the slice that belongs to you. Intolerance is not always a bad thing.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 1:18 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 01:18:54 -0400

CDT Noble, this is a conversation you should have with your cadre. When I did, they had sound advice on how to move forward. Bottom Line Up Front: You are the architect of your destiny, and you will get as much or as little out of the program as you want. You can also affect many of your fellow cadets, regardless of their year group, but only so much before it will probably be received poorly.

What they helped me understand is that ROTC is several things to several distinct groups of people. There is the training aspect, where ROTC develops future leaders. Here is where to cultivate that "Be, Know, Do" mentality. There is also the recruiting aspect, and because Cadet Command wants to make the military seem appealing to college students, I doubt you'll see strict, "Regular Army" adherence to the standard on campus.

The thing I had to deal with as a cadet was the realization that ROTC is designed this way. I was, to a certain extent, supposed to let my peers fail because that failure carries a lesson that everyone needs to learn, whether it's on campus, at LDAC, or in the Army.

So, my advice is:
- Talk to your cadre.
- Ensure that you and your element are the most tactically and technically proficient in your organization, whether it is squad and platoon battle drills, wear and appearance of the uniform, drill and ceremony, or anything else.
- Be a quiet professional, ready to impart knowledge at any time.
- Trust in the system... even though they may seem silly, the blue cards and all that STARTARTAR nonsense are crafted toward a specific goal.
- Don't be an asshole.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 2:01 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 02:01:30 -0400

If the above photo is from your unit I can see why you are frustrated.
Your experiences sound like every other complaint about ROTC.
Just remember if you cause ripples in the river be prepared to face the wave that follows.
Also the best intentions sometime backfire and you might look like a know it all prick.
I would suggest focusing on yourself instead, avoid getting into arguments with these blue falcons and charlie mike on. Set the example that you are taught by your MS instructor.
Let your actions speak rather than your words, because I think the MS Instructors will notice that more than a cadet who constantly complains about others.
How copy over?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 2:29 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 02:29:27 -0400

This can extend beyond ROTC land and into first, and subsequent, duty assignments unless properly addressed. Quickly reading previous comments I see a few options, but overall I agree with initially discussing with your ROTC peers (of course based on your Cadet structure this may require co-opting some other, more 'senior' fellow Cadets), and based on that, then going to your NCO MS instructors for their assistance before elevating it to the ROTC Cadre senior leaders.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 4:35 AM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 04:35:42 -0400

To me the military is getting to lax in teaching the basic skills. I worked with cadets a few years before the NICE ARMY crap came around. It used to be, as we all know, you got smoked. I made the walls sweat in Fort Knox, KY. I didn't know it was possible at the time, but yeah. To this day when my Soldiers do wrong they get smoked, period. I know what the new regulations say about it, but its total bullshit. Smoking Joe is not hazing, it builds character and discipline. Yelling at a Soldier, or calling them by their rank, Private or cadet, its to get their attention. W e need to be harder on them to mold them into successful leaders. A cadet is a future officer. They need to be hardened and formed into strong leaders. As we all know as senior NCO a properly untrained butter bar will make our hair grey. To conclude my spiel smoking a soldier, with his battle, or the whole group will build character and cohesion.

Response by SGT David T. made May 15 at 2017 8:00 AM

SGT David T. — Mon, 15 May 2017 08:00:46 -0400

Shamming is a fine art that can take years to fully master. Observe and emulate...ok just kidding. In all seriousness, this is something you will encounter regardless of your job. Some do their job, some don't. Unless you are directly responsible for them, there is little you can do to affect their behavior. Focus on yourself and areas within your responsibility. Anything outside of that (other than a simple on the spot correction) is a waste of effort. Don't be too concerned with others and focus on yourself. Where they slack off, you have an opportunity to shine. This will serve you well no matter what career you pursue.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 8:45 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 08:45:17 -0400

Start with your fellow cadets in your class. When I was in ROTC back in the early 90s, our class was very tight-knit and we considered ourselves family more than just classmates. We did everything together; we went out drinking together, socialized on the weekends together, went shooting together, looked out for eachother, and heck sometimes we all even changed clothes in the same room (females included) because we felt like family, and not just a bunch of kids thrown together. Because of that, we all held ourselves and eachother to the standard and above. When one of us slipped, we all helped to fix him or her. Even though I ended up not commissioning, to this day, we are all still very close, and still look out for eachother.

This is how you have to operate. Your classmates will be more than that (assuming everyone commissions at the same time) and you will be peers out in the Big Army. Those of you who branch into the same branches will see eachother over and over, or at least hear about eachother through your branch grapevine. If one of you is f-ed up, it will reflect badly on the rest of his or her peers, as you all need to hold eachother to the standard. The Army is a team, and teammates have to take care of eachother. If you do not do this, your team will suck.

So start slowly with your class. Gather them together and talk to them about the standards and how all of you can make the standard better and hold eachother to that standard. Once your class has come together to improve yourselves, then and only then can you start trying to make a bigger impact on other classes. You are going to be an MS III, which is where you can begin to have some impact on your unit. Start now. When you are an MS IV, you will be expected to lead. That means showing everyone else in your unit what the standard is, and also upholding and exceeding it yourselves. If your class, as MS IVs is dicked-up, the junior cadets will have no respect for you and your classmates, and your unit will suffer for it. The class ahead of mine was like that; always at eachother's throats, stabbing eachother in the back. We decided to NOT be that class, and did it right. You have that chance now. Make the right decisions and lead the right way.

Good Luck!

Response by SSG Tom Pike made May 15 at 2017 9:04 AM

SSG Tom Pike — Mon, 15 May 2017 09:04:50 -0400

Are you familiar with the concept of a Blanket Party?

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 15 at 2017 11:50 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Mon, 15 May 2017 11:50:19 -0400

Lead by example, show what success looks like and the advantages that come with it. Don't be a "spot Light Ranger". Do "it" because It needs to be done, do a good job, report task completion and move on. no need to point out your good work in front of others. Leader shop noticed... you will know that for sure when they keep giving YOU the tasks.
give advice and recommendations to other cadets only when appropriate.. Because they asked, or duty, task, position requires it.
If you see an unassigned task that needs to be done, ask other cadets to assist, if they say no, or yes but don't help, LEAVE IT BE. If it is an assigned task to a group, lead, follow or get out of the way. It does not have to be your way it just needs to be a way and DONE.
In the cadet program you can lead, and you can offer leadership to others, but you can not drag them along kicking and screaming. So don't waste your time. Those that want to be successful will look at ways to be better..those that want to sham, will and will suffer for it, now, or in the future when they try and continue that mentality and seniors, subordinates and peers alike who CAN drag them along, push them under or lift them up WILL.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 2:02 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 14:02:21 -0400

Having lived the college ROTC life and transition to Active Duty, I can relate to your situation. As one of the previous commenters mentions, it starts with your cadre leadership. Recommend you speak with your MS3 instructor and the Senior Enlisted advisor. Both have a wealth of experience and should assist in motivating the other cadets. Also, recommend creating a checklist of the responsibilities and expectations for the cadets - essentially keeping score. Most cadets have a competitive gene, and no one wants to be called out for not meeting the standard. Just my thoughts, but I will be interested to see how it turns out. Best of luck and stay motivated!!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 4:41 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 16:41:04 -0400

Enforce the Standards or a new Standard will be set!

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2017 6:30 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 15 May 2017 18:30:56 -0400

Cadet 2LT Private RallyPoint Member talk to your senior leadership. If they are not reporting for duty they can have their scholarships taken away. With that being said with everything you need to have documentation. So counsel them when they show up on their missed training with dates and times you called them and published report times/locations, etc. It is all about documentation.

On a similar note on keeping within AR 670-1 you also counsel. First time can be verbal, but after that it develops a pattern and needs to be documented. Like the three cadets in the photo the one of the left I could approach and say he needs to ensure he has rank on his cover and the one in the middle that her rank on the blouse is sideways. No paper needed. If they do not change it then follow-up on paper.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2017 7:22 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 16 May 2017 07:22:48 -0400

Find out why they're not coming. Do they not care, are they doing PT on their own? There's always a reason. Two instances like AR 670-1 violations and skipping PT generally point to someone who doesn't care. This means you have a chance to try and fix their attitude and figure out what motivates them.
Can you scuff them up? If not, that's too bad. If so, do it. Scuff the entire ROTC section up. Then point to these individuals as the reason everyone's getting scuffed up. Some casualty carries will help drive the point home that their buddies and their future soldiers are depending on what they do right now. In this instance, they are failing in their duties. Highlight that in front of everyone. Shared suffering builds teamwork.

Response by COL Charles Williams made May 17 at 2017 12:38 AM

COL Charles Williams — Wed, 17 May 2017 00:38:56 -0400

Cadet 2LT Private RallyPoint Member Lead by Example in all you do, and focus on what you can control... Don't sweat what you don't or can't.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2017 6:08 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 May 2017 18:08:47 -0400

CDT Noble, the best thing to do is start with yourself. It sounds like you are doing the right things -- keep it up and don't be discouraged. At the end of the day ROTC is a learning environment -- it's a place where your peers can make mistakes to learn and grow from them. It's also an opportunity for you to be a leader and show your peers what right looks like. In a leadership position hold them accountable. When you're not in leadership be a resource to your peers.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 11:58 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Jun 2017 11:58:54 -0400

There isn't much I can add that hasn't been said. Underclassmen will look up to you, they will watch you, and they will emulate you. First, set the standard by being the standard for them. Second, what I found that works for underclassmen is holding them accountable. We had issues with MS1s and MS2s not showing up to PT and labs. This will come down to the cadet leadership, stay in contact with them.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2017 12:24 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:24:00 -0400

I ran into the same thing to a certain degree when I was in ROTC. Being a former enlisted Marine it rubbed me the wrong way as well. But you have to remember where you are and what the focus is. I agree with others that have said this needs to be addressed by the cadre. They are the ones responsible for teaching, not you. The time allotted to the military cadet training (at least when I was there) was two classes per week and a lab. You can't cover all that needs to be covered in that time. So what happens (and probably should) is that they focus on the important stuff and leave the rest up to you to figure out later. I learned quickly as an officer that you are expected to know standards whether anyone ever taught you or not. The guys in your BN will figure that out too. So don't stress too much about it. Once they get to their basic course and are in the "real Army" these things will start falling into place. In the meantime, I would advise against being the guy that corrects everyone. Like I said, bring it up to the cadre and let them handle it. It's their ship to sail.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jun 15 at 2017 12:29 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 15 Jun 2017 12:29:45 -0400

Can't do much about attitude, but otherwise: Provide clear instructions, insure understanding, and follow-up. Reapply as necessary. If problem persists, elevate to next level of supervision.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2018 9:16 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Aug 2018 09:16:06 -0400

Question do cadets salute each other? or in what circumstances does a cadet salute another? or is there such a thing a a cadet saluting another?

Response by SSG Samuel Kermon made Apr 5 at 2019 6:19 AM

SSG Samuel Kermon — Fri, 05 Apr 2019 06:19:56 -0400

Lead by example. One such example is a quiet word with the other cadet(s), away from other ears and explain the situation as you see it. Perhaps this will not help but it will set the foundation for you as a future leader in dealing with personal problems. YOU become the leader for your troops and fellow cadets/officers. Our military needs you.