4/4 for a needs improvement (either some or much, doesn't matter)

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 22:49:43 -0500

So I wanted to generate a discussion on the SR marks of an NCOER and a Needs Improvement.

My argument is this:

NCOERs are over-inflated and people are afraid to give true ratings. Marks 1-3 indicate "success". If you give someone a needs improvement (let's use failing an APFT ro 600-9 for argument's sake), what rating would you give them?

I see too many NCOs receiving 2/2 and 3/2 and so forth and so on like that is a result of a needs improvement.

How can you say that an NCO is a "success" by rating them a 1-3 when they haven't met an Army standard?

Facts to support my argument:

The regulation only states that one cannot receive an among the best when they get a needs improvement. However, the XFDL NCOER will pop up with an error if you try to block anyone anything better than a 4/4 with a needs improvement saying that the SR comments don't match the rater comments.

Your thoughts?

EDIT: Added the image of the pop up error message you get if you try to block someone better than a 4/4 after giving a needs improvement

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Dec 26 at 2013 11:12 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Thu, 26 Dec 2013 23:12:56 -0500

5/5 Court Martial (grievous error in judgement)
4/4 UCMJ (Art 15 company or Field Grade/relief for cause) (lack of good judgement)
3/3 Failed Army standard (APFT/ABCP) (lack of discipline)
All would justify a needs improvement (some or much)

I understand the issue of the XFDL, but that isn't the only form and the error code can be over-ridden (can't it?).

The other thing is to take a look at the "Whole Soldier", are there enough other areas that generate excellence bullets to warrant keeping the NCO if their discipline can improve? Are there extenuating circumstances? Could you see a Squad leader with a FG Art 15 get a relief for cause and still come out with a 4/2 based on other factors?

Response by SGM Matthew Quick made Dec 27 at 2013 11:40 AM

SGM Matthew Quick — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 11:40:59 -0500

I understand your point, but also, due to Army Directive 2012-03, SSGs and above not serving under an indefinite contract and who receive a NCOER with an entry of "4-Fair" or "5-Poor" will receive an IMREPR code of 9W (Not eligible for continued service due to NCOER/NCOES eligibility criteria) and will not be eligible for continued service.

If SSGs and above are currently serving on an indefinite contract, Commanders should consider separation actions.

Yes, NCOERs are over inflated, but how can this be corrected without 'punishing' a 2- to 3-year group of NCOs that would most likely be a test-bed for an eventual change?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 27 at 2013 7:42 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Dec 2013 19:42:28 -0500

Was hoping this would generate more discussion!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 8:20 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 20:20:02 -0400

SFC Jones, I too feel the same way you do and have in fact given an NCO a 4/4 or such rating for failing the APFT or HT/WT and not meeting the standard. I think if more of the corps started giving fair evals and not the inflated ones, it would change the system of having to over inflate or rate someone because it may hurt their career. Last I checked Leadership is being upfront and having the candor to tell someone that they do not meet the standard and are out of the norm for the orginzation to which they currently belong and if they want to continue to be part of it, then it is time to choose abide the parameters of it or leave.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 3 at 2015 1:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Feb 2015 01:59:31 -0500

NCOER's are way over inflated. Hopefully with the new changes we can bring the "paper gods" back down to earth where the rest of us hard working Soldiers live and survive. NCOER's need to be more personal and show the real Soldier that is being evaluated. This is where we get NCO's in jobs that are clueless as what to do because they have not put in the time on the job and just get thrown into the job set up for failure.