Posted on May 16, 2022
Why does the US Army persist with the rank of SP4?
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Responses: 158
It think the question isn't why their are still spec 4s, but instead why their are not still spec 5-9s. NCOs are leaders. Not everyone has the interest or quite frankly the capability to be a good leader. We are dealing with an increasingly technical needs in warfighting. In order to attract and keep the talent we need, we need to recognize that the need to keep senior technical people. This means they need to achieve higher ranks as they get more knowledgeable (including higher pay); either by higher enlisted ranks or by warrant officers (or more likely a by lot more of both).
A mistake a lot of organizations make is moving their best technical people to management when they don't have the capability for it or interest in it. Without an alternate career path, they just leave those organizations or sit unhappily when they reach their level of management incompetence.
I understand the question to some extent in the context of combat arms MOSes but as we watch Russia in Ukraine play out we understand what happens when we ignore the other parts of the force we need.
A mistake a lot of organizations make is moving their best technical people to management when they don't have the capability for it or interest in it. Without an alternate career path, they just leave those organizations or sit unhappily when they reach their level of management incompetence.
I understand the question to some extent in the context of combat arms MOSes but as we watch Russia in Ukraine play out we understand what happens when we ignore the other parts of the force we need.
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SPC Paul Gooch
I'm thinking about buying a new paintball sniper rifle to shoot some people in the butt with. You may find me in the?
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SPC Michael Brown
If we switched the Army to a Spc Route I think it would help our retention and given the changes to the Army based on speciality needs I think it's prudent. WW2 had its Tech ranks I think we should bring it back ASAP.
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PO3 James Bobiney
I knew alot of soldiers when I was in who had no interest in being a hard stripe, which it seemed the Army was always pushing everyone to become. It doesn't mean they couldn't lead if they had too, ie; a combat situation. I was convinced back then and still today that had the Army kept the specialist ranks alot of soldiers would've stayed in til retirement.
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SPC Michael Terrell
SSgt Former18thASMKadena83 Atkinson - I was 26T20. I left active duty after two years, because I got no respect, or cooperation to let me do my job. A lazy E-8 lifer who couldn't figure out how to schedule three people to provide seven day a week operation of an AFRTS TV station, so you worked two days, got three off, worked two more. The next week, you just worked the three days. This just used two of us, while the third did nothing . My MOS was Depot level, so I not only ran the station 50% of the time, I spent additional time keeping the station running. I averaged 140 hours, every two weeks yet that ass would volunteer me for additional duty on /my days off'.
I also had 'rank' try to tell me how to do my job, when they had never been to a TV station, let alone maintain one. The Base Information Officer informed me that I needed to 'polish the hand tools, and paint the inside of the tool cabinet'. I was to 'Keep the studio floor so shiny' that he could see his ugly face which wasn't allowed per our SOP.
I told him where to go when he tried to confiscate the equipment manuals which would only be issued 'if and when he deemed it necessary'. I told him that if he touched the, that I would break his fingernails all the way to his elbows, and ordered him to leave the restricted area which was off limits to everyone but the operator on duty. He called me a 'Insubordinate SOB', and called our General. He needed a mew ass when the General finished, and was told to stay out of my way.
I also had 'rank' try to tell me how to do my job, when they had never been to a TV station, let alone maintain one. The Base Information Officer informed me that I needed to 'polish the hand tools, and paint the inside of the tool cabinet'. I was to 'Keep the studio floor so shiny' that he could see his ugly face which wasn't allowed per our SOP.
I told him where to go when he tried to confiscate the equipment manuals which would only be issued 'if and when he deemed it necessary'. I told him that if he touched the, that I would break his fingernails all the way to his elbows, and ordered him to leave the restricted area which was off limits to everyone but the operator on duty. He called me a 'Insubordinate SOB', and called our General. He needed a mew ass when the General finished, and was told to stay out of my way.
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It's because in the Army an E4 is not a team leader. An E5 is a team leader, E4 is a pay grade that is a natural progression from E1. That means that an E1 and E4 can hold the same exact position by grade and MTOE. Obviously you can't just make everyone a corporal once they make two years in service. It's kind of like why do we have 2LTs and 1LTs?
Why don't we get rid of that and make people earn E4 in the Army? Probably because E3s don't make anything, not that E4s make much more. An E3 with three years is making under $30,000 a year. It's hard to reenlist someone who feels broke and doesn't see their selves getting promoted.
Why don't we get rid of that and make people earn E4 in the Army? Probably because E3s don't make anything, not that E4s make much more. An E3 with three years is making under $30,000 a year. It's hard to reenlist someone who feels broke and doesn't see their selves getting promoted.
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SFC Patrick Tipton
SGT Robert Wager Correct you are. Hardest promotion to get is Corporal. Hardest tangible object for a Corporal to get...anyone....a unit coin. The Army and local leadership is the most stingy with those to things.
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SPC David OLin
There was to much Old buddy things happening to get a promotion to E-5 for me.
If you didn't have the right NCO that liked you forget about being promoted.
So, I like the Air Force which my son is in, which you take a test to get promoted up to E-6. No board until after that.
If you didn't have the right NCO that liked you forget about being promoted.
So, I like the Air Force which my son is in, which you take a test to get promoted up to E-6. No board until after that.
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I'm totally for bringing back the Technical Ranks. The Army has a glaring blind spot in its philosophy toward NCO's. I'm not sure how something so obvious can be so blatantly overlooked, but the Army somehow automatically lumps together "Leader" and "Leadership". Those two words are related, but not mutually exclusive, nor does one automatically lead to the other.
A Leader is such, based on position, rank, social hierarchy, or some other form of placement. Leadership has many qualities, some subtle, some pretty obvious, but it's one of those things, that "you know it when you see it"... you either have it, or you learn it, but It should not be summarily attached to a rank, and it's it's reason why the NCO Corp struggles at times. Some guys are great worker bee's that there is nothing wrong with that. Placing them in a position they clearly have no desire for, nor the qualities to embrace it does every Soldier a disservice.
*rant complete
A Leader is such, based on position, rank, social hierarchy, or some other form of placement. Leadership has many qualities, some subtle, some pretty obvious, but it's one of those things, that "you know it when you see it"... you either have it, or you learn it, but It should not be summarily attached to a rank, and it's it's reason why the NCO Corp struggles at times. Some guys are great worker bee's that there is nothing wrong with that. Placing them in a position they clearly have no desire for, nor the qualities to embrace it does every Soldier a disservice.
*rant complete
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MSG (Join to see)
It's because back in the cold war days the combat arms only mentality leadership decided the army should act more like the Marines and all soldiers needed to be infantry first and their specialty first but also second. The Army has then spent the next 35 plus years trying to convince themselves that all members must aspire to be competent combat arms effective leaders even if their job was a D main rear echelon type job. Only combat always. They lost more knowledge and skill along the way than they ever gained.
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SGT (Join to see)
I agree. I’ve always said the Army looses so many people who are amazing at their jobs because of the “up or out” mentality. Not every soldier is leadership material, current NCOs are blatant reminders of that. One issue I do see though, is the lack of respect for corporals from SPCs. That issue would definitely need to be nipped in the bud.
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SPC Michael Terrell
I tested out of the Army's hardest Electronics school in 1972, while in Basic. I was told that no one had ever done it, and never would. I scored over 93%. I was assigned to a TV station at Ft. Greely, with two men who had gone through that school. They had no hands on experience, but I had seven years, at just 20 years old. One of the two was a useless alcoholic, while the other struggled to do actual troubleshooting. I'm still in contact with him, and he still thanks me for teaching him mre than the Army school, or any other job that he's had in thee 50 years.
I was taught 'Logical troubleshooting' starting at 13 years old. Quickly find the real problem, and fix it properly the first time. Avoid temporary fixes, whenever possible.
The Station Manager wanted me court martialed 'for destruction of Government property' after I built a replacement TV tuner for a piece of test equipment. The OEM part was NLA, and a custom built part would cost more than the equipment was worth. By the time the dust settled, I was promoted to SP4, at just 18 months. I've newer played nicely with fools.
I was taught 'Logical troubleshooting' starting at 13 years old. Quickly find the real problem, and fix it properly the first time. Avoid temporary fixes, whenever possible.
The Station Manager wanted me court martialed 'for destruction of Government property' after I built a replacement TV tuner for a piece of test equipment. The OEM part was NLA, and a custom built part would cost more than the equipment was worth. By the time the dust settled, I was promoted to SP4, at just 18 months. I've newer played nicely with fools.
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SPC David OLin
SGT (Join to see) - Cpl. should be removed altogether or SP4 should be removed. If the goal is to be an NCO then keep Cpl.
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