9mm a better round than 40 or 45?

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 09:59:55 -0400

That is what the ballistics geeks at the FBI are saying.

http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

The FBI is Going 9mm: Here Comes the Science

UPDATE: There have been some questions about the origin of this FBI statement. As the word of the FBI’s solicitation for 9mm handguns became public, they were hit with a flood of questions fr…

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 10:26 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 10:26:59 -0400

I'm not sure I want to trust my personal decision making re: rounds on the FBI's labs. The FBI's labs don't exactly engender trust for me - they've deliberately lied on several trials as to their supposed ability to determine which batch a round came from and thus track the round to the buyer.....so I'm not trusting much on the FBI's labs.....

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Oct 10 at 2014 10:48 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 10:48:04 -0400

Here is the reality: a pistol, as a offensive combat weapon, is weaksauce. The purpose of a pistol is to give you a portable, handy weapon that allows you to fight your way to a bigger, more effective weapon. ALL pistol rounds are anemic compared to a rifle or shotgun. The hitting power between a 9mm, .40 and .45 are marginally incremental at best. There is no huge jump. Where the differences in terminal ballistics come into play are the size of the holes they make. .45 makes a bigger hole than 9mm. Bigger hole = more tissue destroyed and faster blood loss. However, there are trade-offs when you choose a bigger round such as lower magazine capacity and more recoil (or at least perception of it). Personally, I like the .40. I don't shoot my pistols enough where the concern of excesisve wear becomes a problem, and I find the round a good trade-off between power, shootablility and capacity. But I understand where the FBI is coming from and the the logic behind their decision. However, one must be careful with extrapolations. This is a LAW ENFORCEMENT ballistic study and may not necessarily be applicable to situations outside of law enforcement. Example: 9mm is a great round particularly when modern JHPs can bridge the terminal performance gap. But in the military world where we are restricted to FMJ, a bigger round is better.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 11:01 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:01:05 -0400

9mm are also lighter and clips can (obviously) handle more of the smaller caliber (usually 1-4 rounds, depending on the clip/gun in question.

If you're using the pistol as a defensive weapon (which is the vast majority of instances when it is used, those are CRITICAL factors.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 11:08 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:08:36 -0400

Bottom line, M9s alone are really only issued to those not going outside the wire (often), so I don't really see the point of "stopping power". If you're a gunslinger, you'll have a .556. It's a FOB weapon at best, and I'd rather have 40-50 rnds of 9mm vs 10-15 .45s at the same weight. If I ever had to use my M9 downrange, it would only be to get the hell out of whatever situation I was in until the big guns can show up.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 11:11 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 11:11:06 -0400

Than vs then?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 1:14 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 13:14:17 -0400

I currently shopping for a new handgun and have been tossing back and forth the struggle between 9mm and .45acp. This is for home defense and though I love the low recoil of the 9mm which brings the pistol back on target quickly for the double tap, there is something to be said for the .45acp. Though in my experience with the Marine versions of the 1911 with a floating barrel, it was always not a where you hit but if you hit. I may have to go shot placement over stopping power.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 10 at 2014 2:33 PM

SPC David S. — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 14:33:05 -0400

I think the real science is that a .45 round costs double a 9mm round. I bet this has something to do with it. .40 is a good middle of the road round.

Response by SPC James Lowe made Oct 10 at 2014 5:01 PM

SPC James Lowe — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 17:01:15 -0400

Stopping power is a myth. A miss with a .22 is just as effective as a miss with a .50bmg. Shot placement is what matters, and I can have more 9 mm rounds in a magazine than I can with a .45. Not that I plan on missing That many times, but you'll never know how many people are coming your way either

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Oct 10 at 2014 6:16 PM

Cpl Brett Wagner — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 18:16:28 -0400

The FBI says... Isn't that the same law enforcement agency that went from .38 to .45 to .357 to .45 to 10 mm to .40 back to .45? How long has the 9 mm been around? ANd just now the FBI, the world's leading law enforcement agency, says 9 mm is the best? The best for what? Three 9 mm rounds did not kill the pope, granted he was the pope, I would bet that if those were .45 ACP rounds he would have died. I think it was the FBI that did not know Anonymous was listening in on their phones calls with the MI-6 until those calls were posted on the Internet. I think the FBI should go ask the Moro Indians what they think of the .45

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 11:02 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:02:45 -0500

My response to this; use whatever you feel comfortable shooting.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Nov 14 at 2014 6:45 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 14 Nov 2014 18:45:59 -0500

The article makes some great points, when the projectile is unrestricted the argument for 9mm is very good. Our current interpretation of the Hague and Geneva convention (which I, as a decided non-lawyer find very flawed) requires us to use FMJ. When using FMJ a bigger hole=more damage, you can feel it in the recoil, Newton's third law is unavoidable, the force you feel is the same force the target feels, just concentrated more narrowly. If we could use JHP or frangibles or DPX, really any Cor-bon products, the 9mil might make the most sense as our sidearm of choice. But shooting FMJ? the .45 offers bigger holes, and mag capacities can be expanded through new tech offering double stacking and a little extension off the magazine.

Personal story. A team I was assigned to (after incident) as a combat replacement was attacked by an Afghan Civil Order Policeman with an AK-47, he killed two members of the team and wounded four. The return fire from the team was all from their M9s. The attacker was struck in the wrist and the chest. He ran around behind the nearby building before falling down. He survived until a QRF medic from the local Coalition Battle Space Owners arrived. He is alive today, and probably will be released from prison before he serves his 10-15 year sentence (it would have been more if his victims had been believers.) Maybe he would have survived being hit with a .45 slug in the chest too, but I have my doubts.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Nov 15 at 2014 12:04 AM

SSG Maurice P. — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 00:04:11 -0500

THE 1911 WAS AND STILL IS A POWERFUL HAND GUN...A MARINE CORPS CAPTAIN ON IWO JIMA KILLED 4 OF THE ENEMY WITH HIS 45.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2014 3:57 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Nov 2014 03:57:21 -0500

No doubt with a FMJ restriction the .45 would be a better choice. That’s probably why the Army and Marines want to go back to it. However, as private citizens we have no such restriction. With the good self defense ammo on the market for 9mm this closes the gap some between the two calibers. I like the .45 and have a few, as well as several 9mms, and now only one .40 S&W. I admit to being like a woman with shoes and carry several different handguns depending on the season and what I’m wearing. Though, more often than not I carry my full sized S&W M&P 9mm in the colder months, and my S&W M&P Shield 9mm in the warmer months. The full sized has an 18 +1 capacity and the Shield an 8 +1 capacity.

My reasons for leaning towards the 9mm:
1. Good self defense ammo available
2. Cheaper to shoot meaning I can afford to practice more often
3. Higher capacity
4. Easy for my wife and kids to shoot

While shot placement is key, in a stressed situation my accuracy will likely suffer. I prefer to have more rounds to send down range. One .45 in the torso versus three 9mm. I’ll go with three. More organ damage, more blood loss.

For the 1911 diehards, I own a couple. They’re fun for the range, but I see them as an outdated design. If I carry a .45 it’s my H&K UPS compact or my Springfield XDs. The XDs was under the Christmas tree two years ago. I have an amazing wife. A Ruger LCR .357 the Christmas before.

Response by CPT Chris Loomis made Sep 26 at 2016 11:38 PM

CPT Chris Loomis — Mon, 26 Sep 2016 23:38:50 -0400

I'm a huge proponent of the .40 S&W. It's served me well in civilian life.

Response by LCpl George Gocheff made Mar 16 at 2023 2:44 PM

LCpl George Gocheff — Thu, 16 Mar 2023 14:44:44 -0400

Terminal ballistics and accuracy prove the .45 the best performer. In my prime, I could maintain a group under 6" at 100 meters with the .45ACP. The 9mm couldn't do much better at 24 meters. Hit a 300 pound target that's high on coke with a 9mm and he will keep coming - not so with the .45!