A soldier is getting chaptered out of the army and continues to be disrespectful and not fulfill their duties. How do you handle it?

2014-10-28T15:18:13-04:00

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 3:28 PM

2014-10-28T15:28:51-04:00

Article 15, and if necessary change the type of discharge

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 3:48 PM

2014-10-28T15:48:50-04:00

The number one thing to do in this situation is make sure you stay within regulation on any corrective action. A soldier who is getting chaptered may be looking to ruin a few careers on his way out, and if you act without thinking you could endanger your own career or the NCOs under you. You also need to make sure your chain of command is willing to support the corrective actions you take.

My first step would be to sit down and talk to the soldier. Explain that you understand he's going through a hard time but that doesn't absolve him of his responsibility to act like a soldier. Make it clear that his actions won't be tolerated and that he's just going to make things harder on himself. If that doesn't work you will have to implement corrective actions.

With a situation like this a lot depends on the specific actions of the soldier. There's a big difference between cursing out a superior and having a disrespectful tone. If the soldier has a disrespectful tone, isn't showing up to formation on time, or other small things I would solve it through corrective action.

With a soldier getting out it can be difficult to find corrective actions that actual make an impact. The most effective corrective action would probably be cutting into his free time. If he shows up late you make him stay late. If he is disrespectful you can make him come in on a Saturday and have him develop a class on the importance of respect in the military. It is important that NCOs be there during the corrective training and actively counsel and guide this soldier to show him that it isn't punishment but corrective action designed to fix a specific deficiency.

If he is being blatantly disrespectful or refusing to show up to work at all that is an issue that will probably need to be solved through the chain of command and possibly UCMJ. Depending on your chain of command and how soon the separation is scheduled to happen they may just decide to ignore it, but doing so could set a bad precedent for other soldiers in the unit.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 5:07 PM

2014-10-28T17:07:49-04:00

You keep on performing UCMJ on him. Bring him in and let him know that there is much more in store for his sorry a$$ and if he keeps being a sh!+ bag that he's going to spend the rest of his waking hours raking leaves and moving rocks while he's in the military. Company grade, summarized, Field Grade...stack it up. Suspend the pay withholding and leave it up to him. If he jacks it up, you revoke that thing and $425 comes out of his pay for two months. Then...since he jacked up again, you start another UCMJ packet, put him on 15 and 15 and then suspend the pay withhold again. Rinse and repeat until he has no time and no money...and then walk his sorry a$$ to the gate when the chater is complete. This ain't about holding this kid's hand and letting you know you care...this is about compliance. There are rules. It may not work with him, but everyone else is going to see him being mercilessly beaten about the head and shoulders with the "Big Red Book of Pain," and decide that they don't want any of that. Your discipline problem will remain with that soldier.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Oct 28 at 2014 8:25 PM

2014-10-28T20:25:21-04:00

At this point, counseling and trying to improve the Soldier is over. Inform him if he complies, he last remaining days in the Army can be easy until he is processed out and if not, do exactly as LTC Halvorson says. Continue UCMJ and he will comply or it will eventually lead to a UOTH or worse for his term of service. There are rules and he still must follow them.

Response by SPC David S. made Oct 28 at 2014 8:37 PM

2014-10-28T20:37:18-04:00

UCMJ until the cows come home.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 28 at 2014 9:09 PM

2014-10-28T21:09:10-04:00

Have him confined to base and given additional duties until separation date. If he continues, maybe charges should be brought up. You can be court martialed right up to the last second until the final out processing paperwork is signed to including time while on terminal leave.

Response by SSG Genaro Negrete made Oct 28 at 2014 9:44 PM

2014-10-28T21:44:54-04:00

I have to say, it's surprising to see so many one word/sentence answers to this. I've seen the equivalent of a doctoral thesis come out of a question regarding 670-1 or a specific badge (yea, the CAB, you were thinking it)

I've seen this happen a few times. In one instance, the soldier went so far as to become destructive to his own barracks room. There wasn't much left to do. The soldier was almost permanently on extra duty. As far as I knew, he was literally in either ACU's or PT's for the last few weeks of his time in the army. 1SG did a pretty good job of keeping him occupied with menial jobs around the company so that he wouldn't spread is particular brand if dissent among the newer soldiers.

I understand that even the best of us NCO's won't reach every soldier. For some, this career just isn't meant to be. If given the opportunity, I'd talk to the soldier just to try and understand his or her train of thought. What experiences and choices led this soldier to where they are today. If nothing else, it may be worth while to know and keep from happening to other soldiers.

If all attempts to find the root of the problem have truly been exhausted, I would tell the soldier that the big green weenie will continue to grind away. No amount of disrespect or laziness will "stick it to the man". He or she will only end up poorer and more pissed off from the UCMJ that will continue to pile up.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 29 at 2014 6:09 AM

2014-10-29T06:09:04-04:00

Hmmm, oh yeah, confinement for up two years. Just because a soldier is being chartered doesn't mean you can't use the UCMJ the problem is too many are afraid or just don't want to bother.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 29 at 2014 8:43 AM

2014-10-29T08:43:29-04:00

We used to have units bring problem soldiers to the MP Station for us to keep them in the Detention Cell, which we could do for up to 24 hours. The unit had to declare that the soldier was "disruptive" and that they could not handle him. As long as they picked him up in 24 hours it was OK (and many brought him back for another 24 hour period after having him out for a couple of hours or so). One soldier tried to claim "illegal confinement", but his claim was not upheld as the unit (and we) could clearly show that he was "out of control".

If he is truly out of control (which includes continual failure to follow orders) and is being disruptive to the good order and discipline of the unit, I would prefer court-martial charges and request pre-trial confinement. I think that advising him that, if he did not shape up before his administrative discharge, it would be revoked and replaced with a court-martial and confinement, could change his attitude. I would give him a choice of spending another 30 days or whatever at his current location until discharge (only if he straightened up) or more time than that in a Regional Confinement Facility or the US Disciplinary Barracks at Leavenworth.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Oct 29 at 2014 9:35 AM

2014-10-29T09:35:31-04:00

"Congratulations, soon to be Private Freakin' Civilian. Your chapter is now being changed to a dishonorable discharge, you malcontent little so-and-so. Let's start with confinement, loss of pay, as much extra duty as I can legally give you, and some of SSG Everett's inventive punishment detail... like shoveling all the snow off the grass, cutting the grass, then putting the snow back and smoothing it down nice and uniform."

Can we do that still? I don't know, I made all that up except for the last bit.

Response by COL Mark Ellis made Oct 29 at 2014 11:34 AM

2014-10-29T11:34:22-04:00

Some great advice on here. Not trying to repeat what others have said as I think they have it right and not trying to provide advice regarding actions you have already taken, but some "creative collaboration" with your Senior NCOs and a "friendly" JAG should provide some helpful advice and courses of action. Not knowing what UCMJ/Article 15 actions have already been taken limits the ability to provide specific advice; however, with that "creative collaboration" there is often (but not always) a way to deal with these problems. I know you know, but always, always work with your Senior NCOs in these matters. Try to find a JAG at USMA who has experience in combat arms as they are more likely to have had direct experience with similar situations, appreciate the situation better and provide some non-textbook/non-theoretical/non-academic advice. JAGs in the Department of Law may speak more freely with you than those in the SJA's office, especially if it is based on a "hypothetical" situation.

Pardon the "war story." As a battery commander in Korea long ago, we had several bad apples. Fortunate to have outstanding NCOs. If something got to me, I knew the NCOs had done a LOT to try to rectify matters. One solider (still remember his name after 30 plus years) was disrespectul to NCOs (eventually officers), went AWOL (found in him hiding in the armoire of a "lady of the night"), would spit and throw feces at people and did a lot of other things. Started pretending he was crazy and we knew he wasn't. He almost fooled the shrink in Seoul, but was returned to our unit and we initiated court martial proceedings. The young JAG serving our unit wouldn't do anything helpful and would not even attempt to get pre-trial confinement. Soldier went AWOL again (don't remember how he got off our compoud without a pass), 2nd ID MPs found him and put him in the Division's stockade. While in his cell, he somehow got some broken glass, stripped down naked, threw feces (recurring theme with him) at a MP in the cell block, overpowerd the MP by using the broken glass as a knife and broke out of the cell. MP got out of the door to the cell block, but soldier was running amok naked in the cell block. MPs called the JAG office and a JAG went to the stockade. Upon assessing the situation first hand, the JAG advised the MPs that they could shoot the soldier if he broke through the door. Two different JAGs, two different kinds of help and advice. Other soldier kept doing things that we could never quite get him on. 1SG and I were going through the barracks one night and I swear he was smoking weed on his bunk. Although the 1SG and I were pretty fast, this guy was at the other end of the barracks and got away from us in the night. Next morning solider was in my office with 1SG and his Section Chief. After a short speech to the solider with no yelling, no raised voice, etc., I simply said "I have 30 days left on this compound before I leave country and so do you. Up to the next battery commander if you'll spend more time on the compound." Soldier had to ask 1SG and his Chief what that meant. 1SG and Chief came back to my office laughing their a$$es off. Passes were a privilege back then in Korea and not a "right."

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 22 at 2014 2:01 AM

2014-12-22T02:01:08-05:00

I saw a problem soldier get UCMJ'd and chaptered out. He initially had like two months before his separation date but he became an even bigger shitbag. Willfully disrespecting people, acting out, refusing to follow instructions. So they had the MPs take him away, and like two days later he was gone. I was the billeting NCOIC at the time and I had to assist his chain of command supervise his room getting packed up.

Long story short, whoever it is could probably end up getting more and more stuff stacked on there. And if they're really unfortunate, I'm under the impression it might even end up with a court martial and dishonourable discharge.

Response by SPC(P) Micah Lavigne made Dec 23 at 2014 12:01 AM

2014-12-23T00:01:36-05:00

In today's society the glorification of criminal role models is rampant in our youth's culture (I am assuming the Soldier is young). I assume the Soldier has good attributes but tosses it away with disrespect and poor discipline. If you have done everything before his chapter to get him to shape up, then its time to make an example out of him. CSM (RET) Jack Tiley once said "The most valuable thing to a Soldier is time". A leader giving their time to help a Soldier progress, or take a Soldier's time away for wasting the Army's time. If it were up to me I'd start tightening the leash every time. If he lives off post restrict him to barracks, assign an NCO escort, slap more recommended NJPs ect. You done your best to help him now its time to show that every action has a consequence. A leader is not a friend he is a leader a strong support and stern disciplinarian. I hate having to tear down Junior enlisted when the NCOs are not present but if I don't they will walk over me and It is my duty when there is no NCOs to complete the mission. Take his time and money he is only making it harder for him to get a decent job (any job now) and if it keeps up listen for any signs of admittance for criminal activity. Admitting to planning a criminal career to a Government official (Soldier Mailman Law Enforcement ect) is a Federal offense and if found guilty will spend time in a Military Prison followed by a Federal term. make it known to your men. You will stand by your men but if they think that a NJP or chapter means they can do what they can continue their indiscipline the Army is going to slam them and you are going to support it. I remember when I was a PVT our Battery Commander made us witness a Court Marshall for a Soldier who repeatedly pissed hot in a UA and denied it claiming second hand smoke. I last remember him being escorted out in Shackles to the TMP. I think he is still in Federal Prison. It was rough for him and his family, but he made his choice and lost. A bunch of us newer Soldiers all but shook the idea of even jokingly talk about illegal substances out of our minds.

Response by SFC Vernon McNabb made Feb 12 at 2015 8:22 PM

2015-02-12T20:22:57-05:00

http://www.ncoer.com/wall.htm

This should help.

See the section "Challenging or Defying Authority"

WALL-TO-WALL COUNSELING FM 22-102 New Page 2

You will find many helpful ideas about how to prepare and write NCOERs. We have gathered the links and put them on one webpage.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Mar 25 at 2016 12:18 AM

2016-03-25T00:18:39-04:00

Keep performing UCMJ on him. When they're finally out, they'll also have a bad conduct discharge. Wish that could have happened to the POS that slept with my wife, but his former chain of command didn't have the balls to chapter him out for adultery.

Response by PVT James Seiber made Apr 4 at 2017 5:13 PM

2017-04-04T17:13:27-04:00

Continues to be disrespectful and not fulfilling their duties sounds like a possible mental issue. Sounds like a commitment for psychiatric observation. Some type of issue or issues may be going on causing their behavior to be the way it is. Have them committed. Other than that, continue to apply the UCMJ for each infraction until that person is properly discharged. Any behavior after discharge via phone, email, etc... if appears threatening, turn over to law enforcement. No matter how unprofessional said person is, you as the person in authority must maintain professionalism at all times despite what your personal feelings may want to do.

Response by SGT Mathew Husen made Apr 11 at 2017 1:24 PM

2017-04-11T13:24:33-04:00

Reality will come when he gets dropped off outside the gate

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2017 1:38 PM

2017-04-11T13:38:22-04:00

There have been multiple cases where multiple article 15,s have been requested and turned down because the cost and length of time they will have left

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Apr 11 at 2017 2:00 PM

2017-04-11T14:00:39-04:00

CCF for a while. If that doesn't work, stop the chapter and start the court martial.

Response by COL William Oseles made Apr 11 at 2017 2:15 PM

2017-04-11T14:15:43-04:00

The long course at the USDB or a BCD Special Courts Martial is always an option.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Apr 11 at 2017 2:29 PM

2017-04-11T14:29:00-04:00

Back in the day the 1st Sgt would handle it in private, but that was a long time ago. It wasn't about your feelings. Now you have to 15 him forever, but you can take away money and hand out embarrassing shit details till the day he's done. Just can't imagine anyone so mis adjusted it comes to this but there's always a sad sack somewhere. I only saw one in my unit, he wasn't insolent he just refused to do anything, he was 15 and confined to quarters I believe, half pay, don't know what kinda discharge, but dishonorable should apply.

Response by PO3 John Keas made Apr 11 at 2017 2:29 PM

2017-04-11T14:29:01-04:00

Did you ever consider that those reactions aren't working with him for a reason? Perhaps there is an underlying reason...such as there is a civilian trying to get out of that uniform at any cost?

There could also be some psych disorder as well, I am not qualified to diagnose that, but it does seem to me that there has to be a reason behind the behavior.

When corrective action fails, there is a reason. It should be the chain's responsibility to find out why, and not pass the buck. Sadly that doesn't happen often enough, because of of departmental needs, but still...

Response by SPC Rob Lewis made Apr 11 at 2017 3:25 PM

2017-04-11T15:25:24-04:00

Had a blue falcon that decided the army was not for him, F@#K up everything he touched. Was demoted to slick sleeve private, moved to gopher in the motor pool and eventually booted out.
The thing that pissed all of us off, while being head gopher he got more time off and more non-supervised time than before he F#$K up.

Response by SGT Tom Recupero made Apr 11 at 2017 4:32 PM

2017-04-11T16:32:19-04:00

What do you expect? It takes way too long to kick someone out. Paycheck plane ticket on a Friday see ya. Keep them around for months knowing they're going home no matter what? I'd be wasted.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Apr 11 at 2017 10:36 PM

2017-04-11T22:36:49-04:00

Brig

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 14 at 2017 11:27 AM

2017-04-14T11:27:25-04:00

UCMJ, take his $ and if it continues courts-martial

Response by MSG James Hughs made Apr 20 at 2017 10:38 PM

2017-04-20T22:38:05-04:00

I was the hard labor NCO for the Southeastern Signal School.....had this happen several times.... FIRST I consult the chain of command on how much support they will give me SECOND I counsel the troop explaining what can happen if he continues to be a pain in my.....neck. ...... including a court martial , stockade time and possible dishonorable discharge.... and the ramifications of each on his future. FINALLY If he continues to fail to cooperate.....follow through on your promises
I put a man into a court martial.... he was dishonorably discharged.....he was thrown out of the civilian union.....and had to find a new profession in civilian life......later he called me long distance from New York telling me I was the only person he remembered from his time in the Army and invited me to New York and be his guest at his night club.....needless to say I never accepted his generous offer....

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 17 at 2018 12:22 AM

2018-03-17T00:22:50-04:00

Sounds like it’s time for a blanket party!

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Mar 17 at 2018 1:01 PM

2018-03-17T13:01:08-04:00

The only times I ever had to get stern with someone, I was getting mail, we all had to get it in one of the enlisted dorms, I was walking out, I've told this story on here before a SrA, I think, had his fatigue shirt open in the parking lot outside thendorm, eut annopennneer can in his hands...he was with two NCs, both also in the from, I'd gathered, on a Sgt I think maybe a SSGt, the other a MSGt or SMSgt, as I recall...anyway, I just turned as the SrA called rowdily to a friend across the lot and stared...and stared.. And stared...finally, the twomNCOs realized, and the more senior of the two toldmthe SrA to lose the beer can, and close his shirt, and basically ratchet it down sevl notches on the decibel meter...there were a couple of other disciplinary things I'd also watched one day I'd been spending with the O-6 who was the installation commanderz, an O-3 I was assigned to had !e do it as part of orientation, however. that, esp, stands out in my mind. I justmfiguredmit was worth relating. there were as couple of other things, as I'd said, once while at USAF OTS where injad to give an OT de!edits for wearing sunglasses, which was strictly forbidden, however that story esp stands out in my memory, hope was of interest, many thanks....

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Mar 17 at 2018 1:32 PM

2018-03-17T13:32:01-04:00

Stop the Chapter Action and change it to a Special Courts Marshall with pretrial confinement. You still have the concern for "good order and discipline" among your other troops.
ACTION BY THE CONVENING AUTHORITY - "The convening authority or other person taking action under this section, in his sole discretion, may order a proceeding in revision or a rehearing."
BUT I am not a lawyer - see your JAG.

Response by SFC Donald Souza made Mar 19 at 2018 7:45 PM

2018-03-19T19:45:49-04:00

Restrict him or her to the barracks

Response by SPC Charles Keiser made Mar 24 at 2018 6:09 PM

2018-03-24T18:09:11-04:00

It's called the brig , there they have little or no chance to lmped on others !

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 25 at 2018 11:53 AM

2018-03-25T11:53:58-04:00

Just ask them if they want a simple chapter or a BCD!

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 13 at 2018 5:12 PM

2018-08-13T17:12:08-04:00

I thought that is what Charlie's Chicken Farm was for?

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Dec 31 at 2018 2:06 PM

2018-12-31T14:06:58-05:00

Is he ETSing? use the military discipline, inform him he doesn't have to walk out of active duty with a h9onorable discharge, and that he WILL LOSE HIS GI BILL BENEFITS WITHOUT AN HONORABLE DISCHARGE UPGRADES DON'T COUNT.

Is he already being administratively discharged? Tell him that can change to a punitive discharge.

Punitive discharge? What the hell do you expect?

Seriously, some of these questions just make me think you guys are trolling.

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Mar 24 at 2019 4:08 PM

2019-03-24T16:08:57-04:00

NCOs should ask him if he wants an easy time or a shitty time in these his last few months of service.

Response by SSG Cecil Stroud Jr. made Mar 24 at 2019 10:22 PM

2019-03-24T22:22:30-04:00

Okay you are an NCO. I guess you must have slept through PLDC and BNCOC. Mentor, coach and teach does not mean you have to be a bully with rank. Sit him or her down with another NCO present. Talk to them. This could be a immaturity issue. Let them know that they will get a general discharge. It DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY get upgraded. They have to show cause. I have used remedial training and it works. I agree CCF needs to be brought back to correct a hard head that has an attitude problem. Counsel on paper and counsel some more. Any UCMJ with counseling statements and his refusal to get their head out of there fourth point of contact. All you need is a couple field grade article 15’s and you can recommend a chapter 10 with an OTH. The worse you can do is recommend a summary court-martial. Which is a guaranteed OTH. Joe Shitbag goes to JAG and cries bullying or hazing and you don’t have a paper trail, then your ass is in the wind. If they contact a congressman. Your nightmare has begun. You are also going to have to explain why you didn’t do a rehabilitation transfer to another unit. The only discharges I recommended was for drugs and alcohol and AWOL. It is our job to train, mentor, coach and teach.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Mar 25 at 2019 1:06 AM

2019-03-25T01:06:20-04:00

Let him finish his contract in the brig.

Response by SFC Richard Bennett made May 2 at 2019 1:03 AM

2019-05-02T01:03:58-04:00

I had the duty to bring troops to LBJ in Viet Nam before they were going to be dismissed from the Army. It took me up to two days to get them there depending on where we were. I never had a problem. Hindsight tells me I was lucky. I would tell them that they were getting what they wanted, that is OUT. No problems made that as quick as possible. On one occasion I had to take an NVA or Viet Cong to LBJ and that was interesting, two day trip. I was not an MP.

Response by CPT Robert Holden made Nov 19 at 2019 1:38 PM

2019-11-19T13:38:37-05:00

We had a guy like that in basic . He knew he would be out in a few days but kept screwing with everyone. So we threw him a party . A blanket party.

Response by SPC Greg Campbell made Nov 19 at 2019 6:51 PM

2019-11-19T18:51:07-05:00

suprised the other members of the unit put up with his crap

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Nov 19 at 2019 7:36 PM

2019-11-19T19:36:03-05:00

Process him for court martial and let him spend the rest of his time in the brig, followed by a BCD. Or just shoot him.

Response by SGT Robert Hawks made Nov 19 at 2019 9:00 PM

2019-11-19T21:00:31-05:00

Forget chapter court martial confinement to the stockade till trial.

Response by PO2 Loren Gilmore made Nov 19 at 2019 10:46 PM

2019-11-19T22:46:32-05:00

When I served in the Navy, once a year they had a Project Upgrade in which a service member E-3 and below could be outed from the Navy for not performing to military standards. Was wondering if this was still an active practice. It seemed that these kind of discharges worked pretty fast and as a corpsman that did those discharge physicals, seemed to be the best for the command.

Response by CPT Larry Hudson made Dec 8 at 2019 5:13 PM

2019-12-08T17:13:27-05:00

Chain of command can deal with situation, but it requires charges