Active Duty Officer demanding civilian employee to shave and get a haircut

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Sep 2014 15:02:12 -0400

So, there's an upcoming entertainment activity for everybody who lives in this particular military installation. The officer is the Department Director and the rest of the employees are civilians (reservists and retirees). In the meeting, the Captain addressed to an employee (active duty retiree) and told him: You better get a haircut and shave that beard. The employee replied: With all due respect Sir, my days for haircuts and shave were over couple years ago.

How would you react as an officer and/or civilian employee? Are you an officer in charge of civilian employees? Were you trained to deal with civilians? Are regulations for military personnel apply to civilian personnel in your department?

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:24 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:24:10 -0400

The Captain was overstepping his authority. AR 670-1 applies to you and me, not to civilians unless they're in a position that requires them to wear the Army uniform.

Your civilian who is an active duty retiree was a lot nicer than I'd have been in that situation.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Sep 20 at 2014 2:30 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:30:39 -0400

That is some dangerous ground. Military we have one set of rules which are very strict. The same rules do not apply for our Civilian Employees and may actually violate laws and or union agreements.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:33 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:33:45 -0400

Officer Fail. Everyone I work with is a civilian, they are not soldiers and they have no issue telling you that.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:33 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:33:35 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member - Probably just as he did and especially taking care to take it in stride and respectfully declining. You can never go wrong with that approach of being humble but firm. PO1 William "Chip" Nagel CW3 Private RallyPoint Member 1LT Sandy Annala

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Sep 20 at 2014 2:41 PM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:41:47 -0400

Civilians in my unit would likely tell him..where is that in my PD?

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made Sep 20 at 2014 2:43 PM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:43:06 -0400

I would have responded in the same manner that the civilian did.....

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 2:57 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 14:57:11 -0400

Sounds like someone is on the ego-tripped fast track to a short career. I hope he/she can pull their head out of (where ever they have it) and find some better judgment.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 3:28 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 15:28:37 -0400

On a lot of contracts I've been on the ex-miltary generally fall into two different categories; those that will do their best to blend in with the military types and those that will do everything possible to violate every military regulation they can and literally wait for some well intended but poorly educated military type to inform them they are to be within regulations. The rest, as they say, is history. The ex-mil (now civilian) lays into the hapless military type ... and usually gets by with it.

I think the civilian in the given scenario showed a great deal of respect and treated the Captain a lot gentler than many I know. Of course, civilians in a shipyard are not what I would call the "more PC crowd", though I don't know of any that fail to render honors for colors. Most of the civilians I have met in shipyards are doing the job because they love the Navy - plus the money isn't bad either.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 20 at 2014 5:35 PM

SGT Richard H. — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:35:41 -0400

I'm with pretty much everyone else here. The Officer is asking something of the civilian (Also VETERAN) that he can't ask, and the guy is declining in a diplomatic but firm manner. Officer Fail.

At this point, I think the Officer's only graceful way out of this would be to explain (very tactfully) that he wishes to portray a certain appearance and offer the guy a paid day off during the event or just swallow his pride, apologize, and let it go.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 20 at 2014 5:44 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 17:44:20 -0400

SPC Lasey Lopez Santiago,

This is an interesting post and brings forth some interesting issues. As a Soldier, I was bound by AR 670-1 and AR 600-9 for appearance, unform standards, height, and weight. As a civilian and retiree (I work for US DHS not DoD) I am not.

I think your civilian remember that regardless of correctness, we apply the principle of loyal dissention. By relating he was no longer bound by the grroming standards of uniform personnel he delivered the appropriate message without demeaning the Captain's authority. Personally, I probably would have gone a step further and requested to discuss the matter privately with the Captain after the meeting and then been very frank about the issue and what was NOT going to happen.

The care and feeding of civilians in many ways is quite a bit more complicated than dealing with Soldiers and not as often taught, but there are classes for Soldiers supervising DoD civilians.

Great topic. Thank you for bringing this up.

SFC Joseph M. Finck USA (Ret)

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 20 at 2014 7:12 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 19:12:05 -0400

Civilians (GS) are required to follow a dress code and appearance guidelines according with their hiring contract. If it doesn't specify slacks, collared shirt, tie, clean shaven, etc., the military members trying to add to their duty description might as well try pissing in the wind and see if he can keep his uniform dry. Is it worth opening yourself open to a lawsuit for wrongful termination or creating a hostile work environment?

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Sep 20 at 2014 7:47 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 19:47:43 -0400

That's messed up. Civilian employees are not required to follow the same appearance, ht/wt, uniform policies as military. Expecting or demanding that they do so just shows one's ignorance about who the regulation applies too. Now, if an employee came in completely unkept and smelly, that is a personal hygiene issue, and probably should be addressed politely and delicately.

Response by CPT Mike M. made Sep 20 at 2014 8:07 PM

CPT Mike M. — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 20:07:10 -0400

I think it's extremely possible to look completely professional with longer than military regulation hair and with facial hair. It's also possible to not look professional in doing those things, it just depends on how they present themselves. There are Companies out there that require a military like personal appearance and I think it's undue micromanagement in the civilian world. As long as workers keep themselves clean and presentable, that's all that should be needed.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2014 10:30 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:30:56 -0400

Are you sure the Captain was serious? I find it hard to believe that one of my peers would say something that stupid and actually mean it. Was he an O-6 or O-3 Captain?

In my last assignment I worked in an office with several retirees and really enjoyed working with them. One of the guys had gained a significant amount of weight since he had retired and was working hard to lose it by going to the gym every evening after work. I would occasionally joke with and tell him that I would see him at PT formation the next day at 0630 but I never expected him to show up. I can only hope that this was a similar situation and the Captain didn't expect the guy to shave.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Sep 20 at 2014 10:42 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 22:42:28 -0400

I'm going to play devil's advocate on this one.

First off, what environment was this in? Was this an office environment with personnel military and civilian who dealt with the public and had an image to maintain, did they deal with suit and tie dressed individuals while the military wore class As or Bs or was this a CIF loading doc or container port. Possibly something in between the 2 extremes?

What kind of appearance did these civilians maintain? Did they wear well groomed facial hair, have the 3-day no shave look or was the facial hair unkempt and sloppy looking. Understand that civilian and military may have different grooming standards according to reg or contract, but that could still stir the office pot if the extremes are too drastic. Yes sounds like the CPT could have taken a better approach, but did what he was attempting to do by enforcing an appearance standard have merit?

Never heard any MLB player that got picked up by the Yankees ever complain about or fight the fact that they had to abide by the strict hair and facial grooming standards in their contract, while other MLB teams allow their players to look like, IMHO, complete scrubs with unkempt hair and beards. Funny that way how money talks.

Response by Cpl Dennis F. made Sep 20 at 2014 11:50 PM

Cpl Dennis F. — Sat, 20 Sep 2014 23:50:27 -0400

During my civilian Govt. Service I had a clothing allowance and issued PPE that I made full use of, so that took care of my dress code...as far as grooming, I slide between sidewalls and the Ted Kaczynski look, depending on my mood. When I separated from active I said I would never stand in another line or get another haircut. I once looked like Cochise and have an old Indiana Press Pass to prove it. (I have gotten a couple of haircuts, but still refuse to stand in a line) I'd probably tell him to "go piss up a rope" and walk away, but I haven't played well with idiots for quite some time.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Sep 21 at 2014 1:36 AM

SSG Trevor S. — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 01:36:53 -0400

I hope to respond as well as the retiree you describe if ever faced with a similar situation.

Response by SPC Randy Torgerson made Sep 21 at 2014 2:24 PM

SPC Randy Torgerson — Sun, 21 Sep 2014 14:24:07 -0400

Mmm, that is a tough one. If the civilian employee directly works for an active duty employee, there should be a policy somewhere that either addresses this or provides authority for the active duty/civilian. Lets remember that the top guy in charge of all active duty personnel is a civilian. Haha, having said that, just because your active duty does not mean in that capacity you may be like any other supervising employee who is in charge, your active duty status may not even be an issue. So then the question is can your civilian supervisor at a civilian company require an employee to shave and or get a haircut...? I think that as a business owner myself, the answer is yes. Food service industry can also tell you if your hair is too long or your beard is to fluffy...

Maybe you can't in some cases tell an employee how to dress, what to wear, how to look..... but you can not hire them, you can find a way to terminate their employment. I would not hire anyone for my company who has visible tattoos that are larger than a 50 cent piece. And there better only be one or two of them. Those of you who tattoo up and down your arms, neck, legs, etc.... Won't work for me. I like tattoos, I have one on my arm, but it is never visible no matter what I wear. My clients just don't want to see it. Same goes for piercings... Although those can generally be taken out and the holes will heal... I would not allow anything more than a tiny little diamond on your nose. No earring holes I can stick my thumb through, no lip rings, etc.... Want to pierce your nipple, have at it.. as long as I can't see it through your clothes. I'm all for expressing yourself, but I don't have to let you do it on my dime. Appearance is important. Why do you think that the military has always wanted to see pressed uniforms and shiny shoes? Why do a lot of businesses either require or the sales people know that wearing a suit is better than jeans? As a civilian working for an active duty person he should have known that the standards are going to be hirer than working for a civilian especially since the civilian has been active duty in his life.

Does the active duty person have a right to make the civilian get a haircut? I don't know. But the civilian should take into account the reason he's being asked and not always be a rebel just because he can. I'm just saying......

One of the main reasons RP exists, is to prepare active duty to life as a civilian. This conversation is an outstanding one. And it should be considered by all.

Response by CPT Ahmed Faried made Sep 22 at 2014 10:22 AM

CPT Ahmed Faried — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 10:22:01 -0400

Civilian employees assigned to military units in Afghanistan fall under certain aspects of UCMJ but not a single one of them are held to Active Duty grooming standards so I am quite confused why stateside this CPT felt he had authority to do so.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Sep 22 at 2014 12:33 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:33:04 -0400

I would politely ask him to show me in my PD that describes such grooming standards. Now if certain civilian dressed like a slob and didn't attend to personal hygiene, that is one thing. But if it's just a matter of "making things look good" that CPT was way out of line.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 22 at 2014 12:50 PM

SSG Pete Fleming — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 12:50:59 -0400

Speaking as someone who has done overseas contracting. This is a gray area. It all depends on the dress code of the site/location. If you sign and agree to the requirements set for that location you, even as civilian are obligated to comply. Even in non governmental jobs (retail, food services...) dress codes and standards are set. When I was 16 and got a job at a hardware store the first thing I was told is that my mallet had to go... and away it went. At the same time, I have seen positions working directly for the US Government where there was no set standard and people (men) had ponytails and such. That in no way interfered with the performance of their job. It just depends on the set standards at that location. Either meet the standard or get a different job.

Response by PO1 Ken Johnson made Sep 22 at 2014 4:53 PM

PO1 Ken Johnson — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 16:53:27 -0400

I agree with the reply.... I have shaved one time since my retirement. I asked my Mom what she wanted for Mother's Day and she replied.... "you to shave your beard off!" I did. She asked me how long it would stay off, and I said, "It's called Mother's Day, not Mother's Week, or Mother's Month..."

It started back on Sunday evening after I left her house. Now, I keep it trimmed, but the civilian employee is correct unless his job description said differently when he took the job.

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made Sep 22 at 2014 5:40 PM

MSgt Roger Lalik — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:40:49 -0400

The civilian did a good job of handling the Captain with respect. Personally, I think I would have hiked a leg and farted......

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 5:52 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 17:52:44 -0400

I would react pretty much in the same way. I know that I will be retiring in about 6 months. Along with that will come hair on my head, where it will grow that is, and a beard. I will continue to wear them as long as I possibly can.

I would love to have seen the look on the face of the Captain. Actually I would have probably paid money to do so.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 11:59 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 23:59:24 -0400

I probably would have been blunt and just told him that it don't apply as a civilian. No need to be tactful as a civilian- id be nice, but It would probably come across the same as telling a kid "NO" in a candy store.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 23 at 2014 3:10 AM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 03:10:44 -0400

I might say "I got your shave and a haircut"
Civilian hires are not easily commanded if it isn't in their job description........
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ds6w7SkHyw

Roger Rabbit Shave and a Haircut

No toon can resist the ol' "shave and a haircut" bit.

Response by Sgt W Hibshman made Sep 23 at 2014 9:09 AM

Sgt W Hibshman — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 09:09:03 -0400

That is silly to even consider. They're civilians. There as no grooming requirements beyond socially acceptable hygiene.

Response by CPO Rick Felty made Sep 23 at 2014 11:26 AM

CPO Rick Felty — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:26:38 -0400

I love it he spoke with respect to the officer, and reminded him. That he is not under any obligation to. Shave or get a haircut. He is a civilian, the officer needs to back up. Shut his mouth and keep his military standards to himself. !

I would have done the same thing, combed out the beard and wore a Mohawk the next day orchard it stand up straight. The civilian did not even have to call him sir.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 11:33 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:33:24 -0400

sounds to me like that officer has nothing else to do. I am sure someone in his chain that will be happy to employ them and use them for something better than what they are doing !

Response by CH (MAJ) Thomas Conner made Sep 23 at 2014 11:40 AM

CH (MAJ) Thomas Conner — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 11:40:32 -0400

Since as of Friday I am now a retiree, I do not plan to shave or get a haircut for at least a year. Doing it everyday for the past 22 years was enough, besides has anyone noticed the cost of razor blades these days?!

If a wet-nosed captain told me to get a haircut or shave, I'd laugh then tell them to mind their own business. If it was in the job requirements, that would be different, but otherwise, it's not his concern!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 12:52 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 12:52:17 -0400

It gets really dicey there. I do HR Support for the USAF, and there is no dress code for our employees here based on their union agreements and coredocs. Basically, if a civilian wants to show up in jeans, a ratty t-shirt with long greasy hair, there is nothing legally that can be said. Now most don't do that, but if a supervisor were to tell an employee what to wear, how to cut their hair etc...that would be a union complaint and an investigation would follow, likely with the supervisor receiving retraining at the very least...

The employee acted appropriately in the situation but still has every right to file a complaint with the union if they so choose. Sounds like the Captain needs to be educated on where his authority with regard to civilians ends, before he has a career changing issue. The next civilian employee may not take it as well.

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Sep 23 at 2014 2:34 PM

LTC Thomas Tennant — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:34:51 -0400

That captain needs to be taken to the mediforical wood shed. I hope the union reps were there councel her.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 3:03 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 15:03:53 -0400

I'm curious. Is it possible the Capt thought the civilian was a reservist who worked there in a civilian capacity while not activated? I can't even comprehend how an officer would think that a civilian would have to meet grooming standards.

Response by SFC Wallace Lopez made Sep 23 at 2014 5:36 PM

SFC Wallace Lopez — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 17:36:41 -0400

The Officer can recommend a civilian to shave and get a haircut but he can't make a civilian do that.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 10:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 22:32:27 -0400

Is the civilian employee in a high profile position or dealing with the general public? This is important to determine if the employee's appearance has any impact on the "optics" involved (I've been wanting to use that word for a week now). If there is no published dress code or requirement for the civilian to be clean shaven with a certain type of haircut the supervisor has exceeded his/her authority. Military height weight and grooming regulations do not apply to civilian employees with the exception of mil-techs who must wear the uniform as part of our job - otherwise we are just civilian employees wearing a uniform.

Response by SSG Maurice P. made Oct 19 at 2014 9:53 AM

SSG Maurice P. — Sun, 19 Oct 2014 09:53:32 -0400

i thought that the Civillians on base were under a GS 14 or 15 not under the military that was the way they had it in Hawaii in the late 70's and early 80's

Response by SSG Clint Browning made Oct 20 at 2014 12:36 PM

SSG Clint Browning — Mon, 20 Oct 2014 12:36:23 -0400

Seems to me that the Captain needs some training concerning the reach of his command regarding his civilian employees. AR 670-1 does not apply to anyone outside of the Uniformed Services, unless this is a contracted employee with appropriate clauses in their dress code. I think the employee in question issued the correct response, but perhaps could have done so behind closed doors with the Captain. That being said, I probably would have said the same thing (or close to it). "Sure sir, I will get right on it" (Sarcasm, rolls eyes).

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 6:19 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 18:19:20 -0400

SPC Santiago...when I stop laughing I might have answer.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 6:55 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 18:55:33 -0400

SSG Private RallyPoint Member, I'm sure you have received many replies to this post. The Captain was out of line. Civilians don't have to have a particular (especially military) haircut, and they're allowed to wear beards. The Captain was out of line.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 9:22 AM

A1C Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 09:22:19 -0400

I think the worst part of this request was the fact that it was brought to the employees attention in front of other staff members rather than in close quarters and it seems like it could have been demeaning to the man which is understandable. If the captain had such an issue with the man's grooming standards he should have approached it in the proper manner, I know that if there is something wrong with my uniform or my hair is falling out of my bun anywhere I like for people to let me know in a more private setting that way I don't feel so embarrassed about my mistake. Overall, the captain seems to have been overstepping.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 11:13 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 11:13:04 -0400

It all depends on the uniform policy of the company he is working for. If the grooming standards are listed, he is obligated to follow them. If they aren't in writing, you can't back it up and make them adhere to rules that don't exist.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 12:51 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 12:51:16 -0400

I suppose we could take the high ground and simply say "no hablan engleze" --this situation is not that uncommon with our contractors too. Some people feel very strongly that if you wear a uniform for any reason you must be subject to the same rules as they. The Geneva Convention sees things differently.

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 2:59 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 14:59:21 -0400

Interesting story...

While working for Raytheon at Camp Pendleton, I had a great working relationship with the maintenance chiefs and officers of the squadrons that were serviced by our team. One day while scheduling aircraft, the Maintenance Chief and I were breaking for the day and he said something about the pony tail I was wearing at the time.

We had a great working relationship and I politely told him, "eff you top." At that point, the maintenance office became extremely quiet and he shouted to the Marines, "it's just the slimy civilian." Everyone had a chuckle and even the AMO said, he wished he had the balls to tell the MGySgt that same thing.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 8:10 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:10:53 -0400

I am admitting my ignorance here.

How would this same scenario apply if the DAC was also a Reservist. Let's make it more interesting and say that the CPT also happened to be his Reserve Unit Commander.

I am fairly certain that the grooming standard would not apply unless the DAC was attending the event in some quasi-official capacity and getting paid an RMA (or similar pay) to attend. An example would be a unit family day picnic where the place of duty was the event but the uniform was civilian dress.

Response by 1SG David Niles made Oct 26 at 2014 8:15 PM

1SG David Niles — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:15:21 -0400

I think I would tell him to learn his CBA, (Collective Bargaining Agreement)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 26 at 2014 8:59 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 Oct 2014 20:59:16 -0400

As a Reserve Officer and DA Civilian, I think the civilian employee responded appropriately and "respectfully"

Response by PV2 Abbott Shaull made Feb 5 at 2015 3:02 PM

PV2 Abbott Shaull — Thu, 05 Feb 2015 15:02:23 -0500

Would of responded the same way.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2015 8:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 08:40:03 -0400

This really bothers me, actually.

I am currently in Afghanistan, and every time I see a DA Civilian that is walking around in uniform with everything unbloused, haphazardly thrown together, it irks me to no end. But, there is nothing that can be done.

As an officer in charge of them, you have no say in the way they wear the uniform. However, if I were a DA Civilian, I think the former "Joe" in me wouldn't let me wear the uniform like hot garbage.

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Apr 16 at 2015 8:47 AM

SSG Leonard Johnson — Thu, 16 Apr 2015 08:47:53 -0400

This all depends, this situation here it depends on whether there is ranks for the civilian workforce to maintain some sort of standards and does the officer have the authority and the right through regulations and through agreements to make this dude do that. Look, I'm not a big fan of civilian workforce on installations. However, if there's no regulations or no contract agreement, I do the same thing as a civilian dude what did, and basically tell the officer where to go.
With all that said, I used to be a small business owner. I owned my own trucking company. If someone was going to drive a truck mine, he not or she's not going to look like a trashy truck driver. They are going to look like a professional. Clean-cut, haircut, clean-shaven when they show up at the dock of someone's business they're going to look like a professional like they want to be there to help them. It's my business, my money, and this person will agree to my terms or I will tell him or her to don't let the door hit them in the ass on the way out. In my profession as a over the road trucker we have such a high turnover rate, and such a high demand, drivers are a dime a dozen, and I can always find a new one within seconds after kicking one out.
And that goes for all small businesses or large businesses. It depends on what the hiring agreement was.

Response by LTC Thomas Tennant made Apr 7 at 2016 3:24 PM

LTC Thomas Tennant — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:24:02 -0400

HeHeHe.....I had just retired and was growing my first beard. A young major tried to "tell me how cows eat the cabbage" and I had to politely take him off line for a little LBE leadership counseling. While I can not repeat what I said but remember fondly how beaten downed he looked once reality hit. He later turned out okay and still keeps in touch.

Response by 1SG Patrick Holmes made Apr 23 at 2018 4:31 AM

1SG Patrick Holmes — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 04:31:06 -0400

The civilian was correct.

Response by 1SG Patrick Holmes made Apr 23 at 2018 4:32 AM

1SG Patrick Holmes — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 04:32:26 -0400

Good luck on the officer getting his head out his ass!

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 27 at 2018 9:22 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 27 Jun 2018 21:22:23 -0400

Where is the question?

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jun 27 at 2018 10:39 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Wed, 27 Jun 2018 22:39:48 -0400

SFC Mark Merino Pissing in the wind?

I was driving the 151 Jeep while departing NTC.

I suggested the shotgun rider get a Coke from my ice chest.

He did. The Coke caused ‘Nieto’ to have a problem. He solved it by whipping ‘it’ out and relieving the pressure on his bladder!

W/o side curtains on the 151, we suffered from his instant solution!

Is SFC Mark Merino SFC Mark Merino on the net again? - it has been a while for you and 1LT Sandy Annala !

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Jun 28 at 2018 9:01 AM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:01:48 -0400

The below is an excerpt for Air Force Instructions...I am sur each service has these for civilian employees. NO WHERE IN THE AFI DOES IT STATE ANYTHING ABOUT GROOMING STANDARDS OTHER THAN THOSE IN THE FOOD AND MEDICAL POSITIONS.
As a current civilian I would refer them tot he AFI and just tell them it ain't happening...and me be ingme would probably let my hair grow out and get a longer beard just to spite the CC it they were a jackwagon. If they worked with me I would probably go along and maintain my current standards.

AFI36-703 18 FEBRUARY 2014
Chapter 4
DRESS, APPEARANCE, AND RELATIONSHIPS
4.1. Professional Public Image. Employees are expected to comply with reasonable dress and
grooming standards based on comfort, productivity, health, safety, and type of position occupied.
Due to the diversity of work functions and locations, appropriate dress standards may vary
significantly.
4.2. Civilian Dress. Employee attire will be in good repair, and should not be considered
offensive, disruptive, or unsafe. Commanders or civilian equivalents may establish and publish
civilian dress standards. Such standards should be consistent with the provisions of paragraph
4.1, above. Management disagreement with styles, modes of dress, and grooming currently in
fashion is not an adequate criterion for making such a determination.
4.3. Civilian Uniform Wear. Military grooming and appearance standards do not apply to
civilian employees. However, employees who wear standard uniforms, such as those prescribed
in AFI 36-801, Uniforms for Civilian Employees, or medical or food service personnel furnished
uniforms under Table of Allowances 016, may be expected to comply with grooming and
appearance standards for employees in similar occupations employed by other Federal, state, or
municipal governments. Air Reserve Technicians will adhere to the requirements as those
prescribed in AFI 36-2903, Dress and Personal Appearance of Air Force Personnel, when
wearing the military uniform in civilian status.

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Jan 15 at 2024 4:44 PM

SSG Eric Blue — Mon, 15 Jan 2024 16:44:34 -0500

Seriously? Most times, I know that the civilian would tell the officer to shove it, where they can shove it, and how hard.