Posted on Sep 30, 2020
Jake Lang
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Hello RallyPoint, hope everyone is doing well. Unfortunately, I have run afoul recently with a situation involving a comrade/friend/superior. Normally I'd post this on some other site as it is not militarily related (at most, the only thing remotely related to the military is that the friend in question is a veteran himself - a former 0311 marine), but I've run out of sites to go to with advice on this (as many allow very little articulation for an explanation).

SHORT BOTTOMLINE VERSION:

I act as executive officer for an organization, the commanding officer slipped up quite a few times already and the organization itself is going nowhere with the chartered objectives of the organization. I've thought about leaving/resigning, but the men under our charge want me to stay. There's even talk amongst the guys that they want to vote me in as the CO's replacement. I am not a fan of that idea as the CO is not just my superior, but a friend that I've known for the past 11 years (I knew him since he graduated from Pendleton long ago).

Either way, was hoping to get your guys' thoughts and advice on this.

FULL DETAILS:

I won't go into to much details, but I'm part of an all volunteer organization (executive officer/vice president to be exact) that is in the process of transitioning over to a FEMA certified (our individual members are suppose to be certified) organization (at least that was the original plan). Now we're trying to achieve our Red Card (firefighter volunteer certification). Throughout the past 8 years, we've transitioned over to something else three times already (first a decent size paintball/airsoft group, then a real-steel gun club - as we were all avid recreational shooters as well, now to our current form - a volunteer crisis response group). In all those 8 years, we've had not much to show for it. No major recreational events won, no trophies to show for, and even though we want to get our certs - we have yet had any.

Recently, I've also noticed that our designated leader (my immediate superior, the commanding officer/president) of the organization (the one who's been in command ever since we got together years ago) has lost his charisma/charm on me and others. Back then when something went south or didn't go according to plan (which actually happened quite often now that I think about it), I found some of the reasons to lie in his decision-making (or lack thereof). When I did bring up attention to this - along with faults that I owned up to, he'd immediately agree on my flaws, yet (I laugh now thinking about it) when I bought up what I perceived as issues that he himself should've made a call on, he immediately goes on the defensive (calmly at first). Eventually if I ever pushed further on a subject about his lack of decisions or actions, he got pretty red and started cursing me out (to which he would just call it the "heat of the passion"). I laugh more so now because he always kept saying that if we ever felt like he was messing up, to let him now, yet when I provide even the most minor of constructive critiquing, he goes ape-crap crazy.

To be honest, I don't know. I've been friends with the guy for over a decade, other than this, he's a good guy, but he's really starting to screw the pooch here a bit, the only thing he hasn't done yet is sleep with everyone's ladies behind our backs (and I am not using that lightly, he literally let a nobody into our comms without notifying us just because the stranger asked him - probably regaled my friend with how he could try and help us with things. Our CO/Pres legit breached OPSEC with that). And once again, he always says he has an open door policy, yet when anyone of us or us as a group calls him out on something, he either curses everyone out or thinks we're spewing nonsense. As if to add on the juvenility of it, when we did bring forth an issue on him, he just kept going "None of ya went through what I did? What about you XO, you ever gone through Marine Basic? What about you Seniors? Any of you gone through training like that? Didn't think so!". Should one of our jobs be a security detail/base-line tactical stuff, sure - he'd probably be our most knowledgable individual, but other than that, I'm not too sure.

A little tidbit, couple of our senior members bought up the idea of voting on having me replace him, but I doubt I have the heart to do that. I may or may not make better calls than him (I am willing to admit my weaknesses whereas he doesn't), but to screw a friend that I've known for years that way. I don't know, that ain't me. Also the fact that I hate being in the spotlight. These guys are good people, they like our CO/Pres also, but some of his mess ups are wearing on them, too.

I've thought long and hard (yes, in come the jokes) on walking away from this, I've thought about just packing my stuff and heading home for good, but at the same time, a lot of the guys under us are asking me to stay when they heard of that possibility. I've pretty much almost made up my mind that by the time I ship off to basic next year or so, if things haven't changed (if we don't start getting our crap in order and squared away), I'm just gonna resign my post right before shipping off and wish them the best.

Bottomline is that this guy (our CO/Pres) is messing up and I see the group still without direction and going nowhere. I plan on leaving, but the guys under us ask that I stay. They even mentioned voting me in as his replacement, but again, I'm not a fan of that as the man's been my friend for the past 11 years and I myself am not a fan of being in the spotlight.

Anyways, if I could get some advice and thoughts on this from anyone (especially some 0311 marines, both former and current), I'd appreciate it. Thanks guys and I hope you guys are all doing well.
Posted in these groups: Toxic leadership logo Toxic Leadership7282552 orig Organization
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MSG Preventive Medicine Specialist
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I'm sorry. In all that, there were so many off to the side tangents I lost track. Is there a question in this? Can you shorten this down with a BOTTOM LINE UP FRONT question?
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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My apologies Sergeant. Bottomline is that I'm currently second in charge of a group of volunteers in a crisis response group, my immediate superior (and the overall de facto guy in charge) is screwing up and although he invites criticism, he doesn't take it well since I (and a few others) have pointed them out. I had planned to leave/resign, but a lot of the guys have asked me to stay even though the organization is going nowhere right now. The guys even mentioned voting me in as his replacement, even though I expressed no desire to do so as the man has been a friend of mine for over a decade.

Bottomline question is: What are your thoughts and advice?
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MSG Preventive Medicine Specialist
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Jake Lang - If you don't want to lead it, and you planned to leave, then go with your initial instinct and pop smoke.
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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Thank you for that advice, Sergeant.
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LTC Hardware Test Engineer
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how big is this organization? it sounds like it's just a small group of guys and you've let this dude stay in charge for far too long. also sounds like you need a leader who can give your group a sense of direction and purpose instead of bouncing from one goal to another without ever achieving anything. You have, IMHO, two options. 1. be the change you desire or 2. pop smoke.
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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We currently have 16 active members and 3 reserve members (although there was once a time when we had near a platoon sized organization). The only reason I have any qualms about leaving is because the rest of the guys have asked me to stay. And although I have major issues with replacing our CO as head of the organization (as I don't like backstabbing friends like that), the thought did pass in thought and I did enjoy the thought of how I would do things differently and how I believe they would change the organization for the better. Thank you for the advice, Sir.
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LTC Hardware Test Engineer
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Jake Lang - it just sounds like you CO likes the idea of being the boss but either doesn't want to actually do the job or doesn't know how. Curious as to how be came to be in charge?
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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When we originally started out as just a group/club (a paintball/airsoft group), he was the one that bought all members together. There was no vote on the leader, but he made himself de facto leader. Originally we had no qualms about it because he was the one that bought us all together, so we figured that it was only right for him to take charge. Throughout our evolutions/transitions, there were issues that were there, but at the same time, our first two transitions were merely for recreation (even though we also didn't go anywhere with them when we had a chance). His position was never questioned because (even though yes, there were some mess ups) he was a good friend to many of us and the mess ups didn't cost that much at first. He's always been an ass-hat with a superiority complex, but he definitely was able to pull people in with his charisma, the guy's definitely people person (at least when you first meet him). He's definitely one of the vets that wants meaning in life and other things, reach out and build a group/organization for a purpose.

To be honest, him just wanting to be the boss, wouldn't be all that farfetched to me either. I can't help but think that he just wants people around him for his own entertainment. He definitely doesn't view everyone as his equal in a sense as (again) he sees himself as somewhat of an intellectual superior individual. But for those faults, I have yet to find a friend that has been just loyal - if not more so - than he is. I know that's kind of weird, but that's the best way I can put it. He keeps trying to regal us with his grandiose ideas (even though someone else already thought it up), but that's all that they are - ideas.
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SSG Brian G.
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Wow, ok. First? A LOT of stuff in there that no one here needed to know in relation to whatever question you have. Shorten it down by like... 4/5's of what you have. Who is this person in relation to you and what is the problem that you are having with him?
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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My apologies SSG G, my fiancee got off early from work and requested a pick up right in the middle of this long essay I wrote.

The main beef is that the organization that I'm acting as XO for is going nowhere, the CO (who has also been my friend for the past 11 years) is messing up quite a bit. I at first thought about leaving/resigning as I felt it was pointless to stay (again, because we are going nowhere and due to our CO screwing the pooch a few times), but the guys under us asked me to stay, they even bought up the idea of voting me in as the CO's replacement, which I am not a fan of because the guy's been a friend of mine for the past 11 years.

Main question is: What are your thoughts and advice for this kind of situation.
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SSG Brian G.
SSG Brian G.
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First off, is it even that kind of business structure? Most, in fact none that I know of are that way.

Second, heavy is the head that wears the crown. It's part of leadership. If the guy is screwing the pooch and things are suffering for it, then that needs to be addressed with him and in such a way where he cannot duck that ball. You do it by showing where it was his decision to do or implement X and this was the result. Friends are great and all but this is business.
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Jake Lang
Jake Lang
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Ah again, my apologies SSG G, it's more of a volunteer group mostly, if there's an earthquake or (more recently) a wildfire, we're to go an assist as volunteers (right after we get our certs...to which we have yet still obtain because our CO believes we are going to fast). To top it off, he keeps wanting us to jump to different certs before we even finish them (which to be honest...drives me up the freaking wall at times), we almost finished our baseline medical skills certs, but due to the recent wildfires in California, he now wants to move to getting our Red Cards (firefighter assistance certs) - which I am all for...as long as we finish our medical certs first. But no, he insists that we get on the Red Card certs double-time. His issue is that he believes that he is some sort of intellectually superior individual in which no one is smart enough to understand him or his ideas (otherwise, he wouldn't have shot down every solution we proposed and we'd probably be actually certified on a few things and get things done).

To even add on that part, I proposed we give our guys our version of basic training since a lot of these certs require physical fitness and some know-how on certain things, but he said that would have to come later (he basically wants to be at step 24 already when we haven't even started on step 1 yet). I used as an example how (since he was in the Marines and I figured this analogy would serve best) that no recruit goes to Infantry School before Basic, and he simply retorted with "Hah Basic, something I actually went through and you didn't, you're funny."...Not gonna lie, I legit had a WTF moment right there and he said that we needed to jump on every opportunity ASAP.

If I may ask SSG G, how would one bring the hammer down on a person when all they do is find excuses? He's the type of guy that finds an excuse for any accusation, if I showed him a whole list of mess ups, his excuses would range from "Yeah, I had work that day" all the way to "Bro, I was just not feeling it that day".
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LTC Hardware Test Engineer
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Jake Lang - bottom line: sounds like he is an ineffective leader at best and if you want your group to actually ever accomplish anything you need to replace him.
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