Ali: Conscientious Objector or Draft Dodger?

SP5 Mark Kuzinski — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:20:19 -0400

Muhammad Ali, who died last week at 74 from septic shock related to his 30-year struggle with Parkinson’s disease, may have been the greatest heavyweight boxer of al time. He was most definitely the most famous person in the world in the 1970s and a big part of that fame came from his struggle against the United States government after he refused induction into the Army in 1967. Comments please.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 7 at 2016 8:23 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:23:52 -0400

Conscientious Objector and I have no problem with that.

Response by SGT Edward Wilcox made Jun 7 at 2016 8:25 PM

SGT Edward Wilcox — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:25:32 -0400

Muhammad Ali was an extremely dedicated and brave person. What set him apart from the others who refused induction was his willingness to go to jail for his convictions. When he could have fled to Canada, he stood his ground. His faith and conviction should be a model for all of us to follow.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 8:27 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:27:58 -0400

Ali broke no laws. Ali paid the price for what he did.

I see no benefit of trying to try him now.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Jun 7 at 2016 8:35 PM

LTC Stephen F. — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:35:43 -0400

SP5 Mark Kuzinski according to the Supreme Court decision handed down on June 28, 1971. "The Supreme Court held that, since the appeal board gave no reason for the denial of a conscientious objector exemption to petitioner, and it is impossible to determine on which of the three grounds offered in the Justice Department's letter that board relied, Ali's 1967 conviction must be reversed."
The irony of Muhammad Ali nee Cassius Marcellus Clay Jr.'s position of wanting to be a conscientious objector and yet being a professional boxer is hard to escape.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jun 7 at 2016 8:37 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:37:30 -0400

For me I feel he was a dodger as I've seen many other muslims serve. I do respect him for "staying home" and facing the music, for doing so as he had his title stripped from him and he couldn't box for 3 years (I believe). I stand and salute him for this. He was man enough to stand up for the decisions he made.

Response by Maj John Bell made Jun 7 at 2016 8:38 PM

Maj John Bell — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:38:28 -0400

The Men who served were men of honor. The men who did not serve, and stayed in the US to face the consequences were men of honor. Ali was one of these.

The men who did not serve, who left the country, who were unwilling to pay the price of being an American citizen. They, who sent others went in their stead, were not "conscientious". They were selfish and self-centered. They are not men of honor. They should not have been pardoned. They should not enjoy the benefits of citizenship. If they have a good day, it is unfortunate.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jun 7 at 2016 8:50 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:50:18 -0400

Forgive me for repeating myself, but every life is like a ledger full of debits and credits. At the end, we should not judge a person by anyone thing. Rather we should look at the bottom line. Some debits are larger than others as are some credits. I would not give Ali credit for dodging the draft. (A consciencious objector may still serve in many rolls. In fact some medics were among the most courageous soldiers on the battlefield without ever carrying a weapon.) Overall, I think Ali's balance sheet in well into the black (no pun intended).

Response by SGT Jerrold Pesz made Jun 7 at 2016 8:58 PM

SGT Jerrold Pesz — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 20:58:37 -0400

Ali was a scumbag draft dodger who should have gone to jail like most of us would have done if we had done the same thing.

Response by SSgt Charles Freeman made Jun 7 at 2016 9:33 PM

SSgt Charles Freeman — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 21:33:37 -0400

It's hard for me to hold a lot of ill will towards people that refused to serve. I know that's a pretty bold statement but I figure those guys were so desperate not to go that they would probably have been awful service members and maybe ended up getting more people killed.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Jun 7 at 2016 9:57 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 21:57:08 -0400

I see the up votes going to things that describe Ali as a hero, stand by his decision, and take his lumps, etc. I think there is a generational view on this. Those of us who were around then didn't think much of his mouth, joining up with the Nation of Islam, or dodging the draft. Over time, he demonstrated he wasn't really in the tank for the Nation of Islam, his skill as a boxer was better than his mouth, and then he just spent time with people; all people. So there was more to him than what you saw on the old black and white TV. I think more have "forgiven" him than do Hanoi Jane. Then we've all seen the Parkinson's gradually suck the greatness out of his body. Then you could see the gentleness of his great soul more directly.

I still have some mixed feelings. Some of it comes from I generally don't like the idea of changing names. I didn't care for this one, or Jerry Rivers, or Lew Alcindor. But over time, it turned out to be something that didn't make a difference, hence it was (is?) my head case to deal with. At least I'm in the I wouldn't change my name camp.

We all walk interesting paths. Ali walked one that surely won't be replicated in my lifetime. So unique. Nelson Mandela comes to mind as well. Some are touched more by this loss and others not much. However, Ali was certainly part of the fabric of my life.

Response by SFC Robert Bower made Jun 7 at 2016 10:16 PM

SFC Robert Bower — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:16:17 -0400

Draft dodger obviously...

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Jun 7 at 2016 10:46 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:46:20 -0400

Draft dodger or objector, what difference does it make? He stood his ground and paid the price. he knew well what could happen.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Jun 7 at 2016 10:55 PM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 22:55:52 -0400

When I was young I absolutely HATED Ali. I thought be was a loud mouth who didn't fight like a real man, and he turned his back on his country when he was called to fight for it. I cheered for all of his opponents to be him and celebrated every time the Fists of Frazier, Norton and Spinks crashed into his head.
In the decades since he last fought I realized Ali had tricked me, like he had so many others. He may have came off as a brash asshole but deep down he was a kind man who did a lot for his sport and his country. I was able to read about some of the kind things he did. Visiting the ill, helping the poor, and I finally watched one of his last fights, against Larry Holmes.
Holmes was younger, faster and stronger and Ali was a shadow of what he once was. Holmes got the upper hand early on and started beating Ali handily. It turned into a one sided fight, with Ali taking a terrific beating. Holmes himself started asking the referee to stop the fight as Ali was helpless. The fight was stopped after the 10th round by Angelo Dundee who screamed at the referee "Im the Chief Second,, Its Over!!!"
Larry Holmes, who grew up admiring Ali was actually in tears afterwards and refused to celebrate.
Everything I had wished for came true. Ali was beaten and battered and a wisp of what he was. He fought once more than he was stricken by Parkinson's disease.
All the punches I had celebrated had caught up with him and taken him down. I saw him reduced to a shaking old man, stripped of his ability to even talk, much less talk trash. Yet he still had that gleam in his eye, the jokester, the big heart, the kindness that was Ali. It made me regret ever wanting to see him knocked out.

Response by LTC Trent Klug made Jun 7 at 2016 11:09 PM

LTC Trent Klug — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:09:47 -0400

Ali went with his conscience. At least he stood for something, unlike marathonr Bill Rodgers.

Where I draw the line now, but didnt know it at the time, or just was too young to understand, was his affiliation with the Nation of Islam. Knowing what I know now about NOI, I just didnt, and still don't care for the man.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2016 11:22 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:22:32 -0400

CO, he never tried to evade or escape. He was selected, he said no and gave his reasons for doing so. Im also pretty sure he was very vocal about not going even before he was selected

Response by SSgt Ken Reilly made Jun 7 at 2016 11:48 PM

SSgt Ken Reilly — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:48:24 -0400

Draft dodger!! refused to fight for America, called himself a conscientious objector, but admitted that if Elijah Mohammad told him to pick up arms for a holy war, then he would. He just decided he was too important to fight in this particular war.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 7 at 2016 11:58 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Tue, 07 Jun 2016 23:58:52 -0400

DRAFT D-O-D-G-E-R! Just like Bill Clinton!

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Jun 8 at 2016 1:45 AM

SGT Shawn Schweinberg — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 01:45:17 -0400

Leave the man alone. He just passed away.
If these issues mattered they would be out and talked about a long time ago.

Response by SFC Mike Edwards made Jun 8 at 2016 2:12 AM

SFC Mike Edwards — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 02:12:26 -0400

Don't wait until a person, A real man that can't defend himself to bring this type port kind of judgement on him. Please let him rest in peace.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 3:30 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 03:30:04 -0400

Muhammad Ali was a true man of peace, a man of conscious. Yes, many conscious objectors were drafted and took part in the Vietnam Conflict. But are you truly objecting to war if you are assisting other to do it in your stead? I believe the man that transports the bullets to the fighters is just as much of the war effort as the fighters (and believe me, as a prior infantryman, and now a support MOS, it took years of maturity to finally see that).

In the age of our country at his time, the African-American saw more hostility from his own government and Caucasian Americans then the people we were going to war with. This fact is something I feel many of the Ali-condemners of our time (coincidentally Caucasian?) will and could never understand, since they have never felt the sting of institutional racism.

He knew his decision would cost him everything, but he didn't run away like many people did (including former presidents). He lost his career, but became much more. But don't take my word for it, listen to his words in the video below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vd9aIamXjQI

No Viet Cong. Called Me Nigger

Muhammad Ali did not support war

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Jun 8 at 2016 4:26 AM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 04:26:53 -0400

http://www.npr.org/2016/06/06/480958894/muhammad-ali-a-poet-in-and-out-of-the-ring

Muhammad Ali: A Poet In And Out Of The Ring

"The Louisville Lip" was famously as fast with his words as with his fists — years before the birth of hip hop, he was a battle rapper flipping similes and metaphors in a language all his own.

Response by SGT Michael Kiumbe Reynolds made Jun 8 at 2016 7:08 AM

SGT Michael Kiumbe Reynolds — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 07:08:04 -0400

Why hasn' t been brought up about all of the times that Trump has found a way to evade Military Service!?! THEN the gall to POWS!?!

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Jun 8 at 2016 8:46 AM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 08:46:59 -0400

Both, you have to put into context of the times. In the 70s you avoided the draft by declaring yourself a conscientious objector among other reasons, having a child or attending college were the most common amongst my friends. For whatever reason the powers that be rejected Ali's claim and punished him as a draft dodger. He paid his price for this and went on to greatness. IMHO he was no more a draft dodgers than my buddies who went out and had families just to get out of the draft, and there were many of them.

Response by SFC Robert Bower made Jun 8 at 2016 10:53 AM

SFC Robert Bower — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 10:53:14 -0400

Even Elvis didn't dodge the draft! He was just a showboating draft dodging terd if you want my opinion... What did he contribute to society? His job was boxing... So, he went to work, so did I for 26 years, F him!

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Jun 8 at 2016 11:12 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 11:12:25 -0400

I was always pretty mad at him for refusing to be drafted esp when other notables were or had done their time, got out, and went on to successful careers. Esp irritating were his widely broadcast political rants against the war and having no issues with them North Vietnamese. I always thought declaring himself a CO and a Muslim was just a ruse to dodge or otherwise avoid the draft. As it turned out he remained true to his newly established religious beliefs for the rest of his life, took a 3 yr suspension from boxing at his prime, and beat the legal rap all the way at the supreme court. I came to respect him for being true to his beliefs. As others have said he did not 'run away' but stuck around to take what society had to give him, and came back even stronger.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Jun 8 at 2016 1:50 PM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 13:50:15 -0400

I loved his quote when he was asked why! Many citizens refused induction. he proved that you can still be a great American and object to the violence of war(especially that one). It's his right and it inspired others to exersize that right. This is what we fight for, ours and other citizens rights to exersize their beliefs.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2016 2:07 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 14:07:09 -0400

Hi, SP5 Kuzinski.

We are a snapshot, take no prisoners, death before dishonor group, ready to instantly put life or limb to our country. I would not expect or have it any other way. Those that neglected to answer our nation's call to arms will always deserve our ire. Again, that is as it should be. There is no room for cowards here.

Ali objected to the war effort, objected to his induction into the armed forces, and paid a huge price for it. He didn't run or hide. He took the hit, at the expense of his career. He had a different battle to fight, and stood up for his beliefs against insurmountable odds. That had honor.

Response by SMSgt David Zobel made Jun 8 at 2016 2:46 PM

SMSgt David Zobel — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 14:46:54 -0400

His religious affiliation, misguided or not, completely met the criteria of "Conscientious Objector" status. The government's decision to disqualify and prosecute was wrong headed, and the Supreme Court eventually said so.

Response by SSG Delanda Hunt made Jun 8 at 2016 6:01 PM

SSG Delanda Hunt — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 18:01:36 -0400

Draft dodger, but he was a great boxer and overall a good person.

Response by 1SG Michael Bonnett made Jun 8 at 2016 11:35 PM

1SG Michael Bonnett — Wed, 08 Jun 2016 23:35:15 -0400

He was a racist....google his bluebird speech...

I had a Klansman we caught and was kicking out (that whole member of organizations that advocate the unlawful overthrow of the United States thing, plus they are racist assholes...) who had magazines with some of Ali's quotes....yes the Klan quotes Muhammad Ali...

May all the racists be stuck in the same room for all of time...

Response by PO3 Sherry Thornburg made Jun 10 at 2016 9:55 AM

PO3 Sherry Thornburg — Fri, 10 Jun 2016 09:55:39 -0400

Most older folks will say the two are the same thing, but in his case, I think objector is the better term. http://alphahistory.com/vietnamwar/muhammad-ali-refuses-to-fight-1967/

Muhammad Ali explains his refusal to fight in Vietnam (1967)

Heavyweight boxing champion Muhammad Ali was drafted in 1967 but refused to enlist, leading to his arrest, trial and conviction for draft evasion.

Response by COL Mikel J. Burroughs made Jun 14 at 2016 6:56 PM

COL Mikel J. Burroughs — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 18:56:04 -0400

SP5 Mark Kuzinski It is what it is and he paid for his convictions. Just think how overcrowded our jails and prisons would have been if everyone refused induction? Maybe we would have saved half of the 58,000 that died and did meet their obligation to this country! Thoughts on that anyone?

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 15 at 2016 2:10 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 14:10:27 -0400

This was proven in court. Do your research.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 25 at 2016 10:56 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Jun 2016 22:56:42 -0400

Conscientious Objector. As a premier celebrity, Mr. Ali would have understood that he was more valuable to the US Army alive than dead. As such he more than likely would have been well aware that the Army would have placed him in some special MWR type position where he would have coasted through the Vietnam Era making USO morale appearances without having never hear a shot fired in anger. Instead he stuck to his convictions and lived with the consequences which were financially and professionally ruinous. He didn't run to Canada or some other sympathetic country; he stayed in the US and left himself open to the hate filled vitriol of many who reviled him as a traitor. I can understand why Vietnam Vets would have animosity for Mr. Ali but I could not agree with them on this.

Response by PO1 Ralph Hernandez made Jan 22 at 2018 10:32 AM

PO1 Ralph Hernandez — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:32:48 -0500

Although I don't agree with his decision, I respect his decision. It's the reason we all served. What bothers me is Ali calling himself a conscientious objector while beating the crap out of his opponents.

Response by SPC David Willis made Jan 22 at 2018 10:38 AM

SPC David Willis — Mon, 22 Jan 2018 10:38:22 -0500

Why is it OK to avoid the draft due to schooling or small issues that plenty of combat troops have enlisted with anyway, but not ok to avoid the draft because you fundamentally disagree with war? Folks jump on democrats all the time for calling Trump a draft dodger, but the reality is that he was. He avoided the draft on education deferments and due to some issue with his shins. Now evidently his body was fit enough to play college baseball but not fit enough for war, but even though his was "legal" he dodged the draft.