Any advice for a new Platoon Leader in regards to property management?

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:25:14 -0500

I will have the honor of taking a Cav Scout platoon in a couple months. Technically and tactically I feel prepared, but I do not feel as prepared to handle property as I should be. I am seeking advice, experiences, and references. Thank you in advance!

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 20 at 2017 2:35 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:35:08 -0500

I would start by looking at the umpteen posts on this site. There is already a wide cross section of advice out there. https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/cadets-are-often-told-to-listen-to-our-ncos-after-we-commission-how-can-we-achieve-a-good-balance-between-taking-advice-and-being-in-charge?urlhash=2292296

Cadets are often told to listen to our NCOs after we commission. How can we achieve a good...

The one piece of advice that cadets receive more than any other is probably that we'll need to listen to our NCOs. The excellent reasons for a new 2LT to look to his or her more experienced Soldiers and NCOs are numerous and in many cases self evident. Nonetheless, a new PL is and has to be in charge. How can the recently commissioned officer lead and further hone his or her skills and do the right thing by his or her Soldiers while still...

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 20 at 2017 2:41 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 14:41:59 -0500

Trust, but verify.
Its not present unless YOU have seen it.
If it has a serial number, its not accounted for until YOU have seen it.
If it is not present physically, its not accounted for until YOU have the the adjustment document in your hands, or a service order that indicates in the shop status.
If its on your hand receipt account for it., after accountability .If it is not going to remain physically in your control, have the end user sign for it. Its your subordinates job to do the same, its your job to ensure they do theirs.
Everything has a TM, the TM is PART of the accountable items..if the TM is missing, you do not have full accountability., TMs show you component items, sub assemblies, and sometimes installation kits, though many times they have their own TM and UI as well. Components to includes cases, tools, non durable items COUNT as accountable items. Even non durable items should be accounted for, if not present, are they on order with valid status? Rags, lubes, ect need not be present, or even on order to consider the line item accounted for.. But you should be taking notes of what you don't have...and then dealing with that.

IF, the TM covers multiple versions of the same item, you may need an expert and informed opinion as to which sub system you are signed for, or which competent items go with your issue type or version.. The Company XO SHOULD be the property SME for the company, in concert with the supply sergeant. If at any point your just not sure..the CDR is the tie breaker. "Sir, the HR says Im supposed to have 9 ea MA1234XZ's but the TM says depending on unit they are issued to, they can come with sub component set 1a, 1b or 3c.. Which set is your company supposed to have?? He talks with his XO..and they decide component set 1a is correct.. make sure that is annotated on your HR before signature.
Installation kits are ACCOUNTABLE items as well... So not just 12ea ABC 327 Radio sets, but if they are installed in a vehicle likely they have a separate installation kit your responsible for..SOMETIMES that even includes unused cables or parts not used in YOUR specific install, but still part of the kit.
You should trust your Soldiers... Property accountability involves no trust.... its either accounted for, or its not.
You do not "trust" that item is in the shop because someone told you so.
You do not "trust" that unit is with the deployed SQD at NTC doing a 90 day tasker, because someone told you so.
You do not "trust" that item was supposed to be taking off your hand receipt two months ago, its fine Sir , we turned that in already, because someone told you so.

Response by LTC Jason Mackay made Feb 20 at 2017 3:00 PM

LTC Jason Mackay — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:00:49 -0500

Generally officers do not sign for property until they are Captains and taking command. A TTP is for the NCOs, particularly Platoon and Section sergeants to sign for property. This leaves Platoon Leaders as disinterested parties to do periodic inventories for Commanders. A Company may only have two levels of subhandreciepts in PBUSE, which will be headed into G-Army pretty soon if ain't already.

If you are going to be signed for property:
- get with the commander and the supply sergeant and ensure that you are on the same supply catalogue for sub components. The FLIPLs are usually not that your unit lost a tank, it lost all the sub component items that are not bolted down.
- don't count anything you can't touch, nor account for anything you didn't read the serial number off the data plate off of.
- if you have multiple non-serial numbered items with a separate LIN, have them laid out at the same time so you don't count the same one.
- arrange for the supply sergeant to be at your inventory so that adjustments can be made in real time, also do sub hand receipts and short annexes do not have discrepancies.
- IMMEDIATELY sign equipment to subordinate squads and individual users to ensure that you are not personally on the hook. Conduct periodic inventories, recommend monthly 10% and a 100% when a HR holder changes. Ensure items are adequately secured with key control. Conduct post field checks for losses. Report losses and initiate FLIPLs upon discovery. If you do this religiously, you won't be held liable for losses in a FLIPL.
- Read 735-5 and ensure you understand liability and the different types of responsibility. Understand the types of negligence.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2017 3:03 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:03:09 -0500

If you don't have eyes AND hands on the item(s), don't sign for it.

Response by Maj John Bell made Feb 20 at 2017 3:18 PM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:18:51 -0500

Seek advice and counsel from your supply chief and supply officer, and your maintenance chief and maintenance officer. I do not know what the Army calls it but we (Marines) used to have Consolidated Logistics Inspections (CLI's) conducted by Division staff. If the inspected command and the inspecting team for a Battalion will allow it, observe someone else's CLI, as often as possible. Make sure you take your SNCO and/or senior NCO's if allowed, or if limited numbers can go, send them and have them come back and teach you what they learned.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Feb 20 at 2017 3:40 PM

MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:40:51 -0500

Personally, I NEVER signed for anything I hadn't seen with my own eyes and touched with my own hands. Once your signature is on the form, it's too late to go looking for missing items. SGM Erik Marquez has some great advice to follow.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Feb 20 at 2017 3:46 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:46:03 -0500

Get a copy of the work order for anything sent out to higher level maintenance.
Call the maintenance activity to confirm it is located in their system.
If serial number items are changed out due to maintenance, immediately work with the property book office / supply room to give ****copies**** of the change document and make sure you confirm the changes on your property book before re-signing.
Keep the originals!!!!

Response by SFC Dennis A. made Feb 20 at 2017 3:56 PM

SFC Dennis A. — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 15:56:38 -0500

If it isn't there it's just that "not there". Once it's all there now one takes it or moves it until they've signed for it.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Feb 20 at 2017 4:03 PM

SPC Erich Guenther — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 16:03:10 -0500

Never lose focus and don't ever turn your back on a physical layout during a layout inspection because that's when the NCO's and SP4 Mafia are flipping the tools and whatnot around on the tarps to make it look like everyone has everything. Ohhhh the things my eyes have seen with naive and over trusting officers.....lol.

Response by CPT Jacob Swartout made Feb 20 at 2017 4:17 PM

CPT Jacob Swartout — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 16:17:29 -0500

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member Allow your PSG to walk you through the first layout so that you understand what right looks like. Use the TMs when they apply and confirm parts/components with Usable on Codes (UOC) because not all equipment or property require the same items. Different variants don't always have the same items as you will learn when you see this in TMs. If you don't see it, do not sign the inventory sheet. Your CO expects a thorough inventory, especially sensitive items by serial number. Ask ahead if there any shortage annexes or equipment/property at BDE for repairs because you will physically need to see them despite having documentation that they temporary signed for and transferred to another unit.

Hopefully you won't run in the issue where a sister unit couldn't find 10 pairs of NVGs and then realized that those 10 sets were a lateral transfer by BDE directive from the BDE PBO a month earlier. Your PSG should set you straight and explain what needs to be done. Learn from your NCOs and do well.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2017 4:33 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 16:33:38 -0500

2LT Everett, you have received some good advice here by the RP Team. I would add that you task, direct, delegate an individual under your supervision to develop your platoon property library on digits. You should have a -10 for every item in your platoon with component listing. Once you layout the platoon equipment take a photo of each item or at least the high dollar items. Once you conduct an inventory, ensure you take notes on any issues with the equipment and maintain that information in case of a FLIPL down the road.

Next, develop a Hand Receipt Book with all current HRs and each of the sections under the responsibility of how your platoon is organized. It could be by track commanders, dismounts, ect. But, someone is ultimately in charge of section, team equipment. Use the MTOE as your guide as to where property is distributed.

Next, on a calendar add every property inspection and then add that to your training schedule. You have 100% of your property and every month you should inspect 10% of it. This will be based off your Company Commander or by the Company Commander's 10% by LIN item inventory. The BLUF is to conduct a 10% inventory regardless of your Commander conducting an inventory. This limits liability.

Understand that when you have a Soldier that is a 90 day loss that you need to see their HR and any equipment they may be signed for. Most of the FLIPLs my Company Commander's experienced where due to them allowing someone to PCS or ETS and no one conducted an inventory.

Property Accountability- ensure a PVT or a PFC is not signed for $40 million worth of gear. And do not allow one person to sign for platoon equipment and then distribute it. That one Soldier is now liable for the loss and they have no real understanding of the supply system so they get the short stick.

Property Management is the same as Maintenance Management- if you make it important then your Soldiers will too. Add property management on every NCOs counseling paperwork. It may not be an issue now- but not having a spare barrels or T&E for example will become an issue.

Best of luck.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2017 4:53 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 16:53:55 -0500

Hold your Soldiers accountable. If you do not, they will "lose" BII and COEI faster than you can blink. This means statements of charges or FLIPLs for things that appear negligently lost during field training exercises. Make sure you do recovery inventories thoroughly to identify missing equipment and always assist the CDR in his/her cyclic inventories. Nothing sets the standard quite like a PL holding members of their PLT accountable in property. DO NOT pencil whip inventories and always check for the BII/COEI of each item (not just the serial numbered end item).

Make sure you counsel your PSG and SLs about their role in property during your rater and senior rater counseling sessions. Property accountability is definitely a key component in an NCOER and this block sets the MQ NCO apart from the HQs.

Good luck!

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 20 at 2017 5:31 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 17:31:55 -0500

Trust, verify, eyes on, serial numbers; you name it. All good comments. The one that I'd add is to make sure you are only responsible for the correct list. Over time, some property manager wannabes gets a fly up their bung hole and decides to add crap to the inventory list. Then the people following get to wallow in that stupidity. So make sure you have the correct short list and compare it to the list they are trying to hang you with. Get with the S-4 to have the delta between the two lists resolved. If it shouldn't be on the list, delete it. If you don't need it, collect it on inventory and turn it in. You have a specific TOA and that's where you should put your effort into vs. carrying someone else's head case garbage around. BTW, your list should be comparable to other similar mission platoons for the basic gear with adds for the specialty stuff your unit is responsible for. Your senior NCO will appreciate your interest in downsizing the inventory cluster. He/She will have some good ideas on where Stupid is at.

Response by MSG Jay Jackson made Feb 20 at 2017 8:21 PM

MSG Jay Jackson — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 20:21:23 -0500

LT, I would get with the maintenance officer or warrant to verify the status of equipment that is away for maintenance. Maybe go see some of your equipment to verify the serial number. Mistakes get made ok. As for the rest of your equipment, get very familiar with shortage annex and the TM used to account for the BII and COEI. Some of these items make a piece of equipment NMC if not on hand. Also some items have alternate NSNs. A lot of the advice I have read prior to my post is new officer gold!! Good luck and may you not have any missing items.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2017 8:23 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 20:23:01 -0500

Get the hand receipt and get your own TMs. Make sure they are the updated version. Inventory all COEI/BII. Annotate all shortages properly on the shortage annex. Make sure you sign down everything to the lowest level before you sign that company hand receipt (trust me, your CO won't sign his/hers until all dub hand receipt holders sign).

It is your responsibility to keep everything FMC and to make sure all shortages are ordered.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2017 11:56 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 20 Feb 2017 23:56:43 -0500

NEVER SIGN FOR ANYTHING UNTIL YOU SEE IT, TOUCH IT, and then sign it down to the next user!

Response by SSG Laurie Mullen made Feb 21 at 2017 12:32 AM

SSG Laurie Mullen — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 00:32:42 -0500

Alright, true story here. One unit that I was in went through three Platoon Leaders within a year. I was a squad leader at that time and during the change over from the first one to the second one I was detailed out so I was not there when the inventories should have been done. When we changed over from the second one to third I had all of my teams lay out their equipment so that it could be inventoried. While we were doing this the second one came by and started laughing at us because we were doing the inventory. I couldn't understand why he found it so funny. He said that when he took over they didn't do any inventories because the NCOs had signed for everything and so they were responsible for it. The first one told him that he didn't need to inventory any thing. He then left and I told the third one that we were going to do the change over the correct way, at least for my squad. Yes, the NCOs were responsible for their equipment, but the Platoon Leader needs to know what's missing and ensure that there isn't any broken or worn out pieces that should have been repaired or replaced. Inventories are a pain in the butt, but they are necessary.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 21 at 2017 9:24 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 09:24:16 -0500

As SGM Erik Marquez said, trust, but verify or as I say it, in God we trust in everyone else we verify. When it comes time to do a lay out, have your hand receipts ready and be ready to count. If the HR says 15 pins, then count 15 pins. Then make sure you make copies of any new or update HR for the property.

Do not accept the initial HR without the proper lay out, even if you are told there is no time. Make the time. Do not sign for anything for without putting eyes and hands on it and verify by SN.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Feb 21 at 2017 11:34 AM

MSG Brad Sand — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 11:34:00 -0500

Don't lose anything.

When something is lost, make sure the person responsible, is held responsible, and when things happen in the military, as they will happen, take care of your soldiers.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2017 12:48 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 12:48:20 -0500

When you first inventory your PLT property, have the TM handy with the list of BII/COEI because you are signing for that too. Anything not there should be on a shortage annex. Sign down your PLT property to the Vehicle Commanders/Section SGTs below you. Ensure you have a solid chain of custody. If you feel uncomfortable signing for something, don't. Get help from another PL or your XO. Good luck!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2017 2:24 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Feb 2017 14:24:05 -0500

record keeping is key, always have hand receipts for your stuff and conduct monthly inventories.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 22 at 2017 5:40 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 22 Feb 2017 05:40:20 -0500

Listen to SGM Erik Marquez Excellent advise, I can only add, "DON'T BE A NICE GUY". Good luck!

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Feb 25 at 2017 7:08 PM

MAJ Raúl Rovira — Sat, 25 Feb 2017 19:08:50 -0500

If you do not see it, do not sign it. When you do the inventory do it with the section NCO and the one who will have direct responsibility for the property. This way the hand receipt and sub hand receipts are all done at the same time.

Response by MAJ Norm Covalt made Mar 2 at 2017 12:34 PM

MAJ Norm Covalt — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 12:34:50 -0500

As the SGM said, if you have not touched it, it is not there. To make it short you do not make enough money to let it go by. Touch it, verify the serial number, mark it off your list, hand receipt it down to the user level. Over twenty years I bought one thing, a hammer $7.50, that was the last thing I bought.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Mar 2 at 2017 12:55 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Thu, 02 Mar 2017 12:55:24 -0500

A few thoughts:
-This is one of the areas where you can ruin your entire career with a stupid mistake. Follow regulations and process exactly, take notes, get help if needed
-There's probably Army or Defense Contracting Agency computer-based training on this subject. I found this type of training very valuable as a certifying official while working as an Army Civilian
-There's an inventory available from the previous PL. I recommend checking it very closely with your Platoon Sergeant's help. Don't be pressured or tricked into feeling bad about wanting a complete accounting for all the stuff you're signing for, it's your ass on the line.
-Once something is in the Supply System as an accountable item, it's difficult to get rid of it. I had a statistics text book I had to sign for every year. It was out-of-date and nobody every looked at it. I asked the supply person how I could get it off the inventory or dispose of it. Answer was incredibly complicated. I decided to continue to account for it and passed it to my successor when I retired.