APFT failure counseling, counseling agreement not met by chain of command. Is this something I can fight?

2020-02-05T20:03:40-05:00

If I sign a counseling post apft failure and it states that I'm required to be on a remedial pt plan and the remedial plan never happens not once but three times (the previous two were made erroneous but not for that reason) are these counselings valid? Is this something I can fight a chapter process with?

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Feb 5 at 2020 8:24 PM

2020-02-05T20:24:20-05:00

Yes they are! Now, time to get real...

If you show up as required, then PT your ass off, don’t wait on others. Show your initiative and commitment to improve yourself!!!!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 5 at 2020 8:25 PM

2020-02-05T20:25:59-05:00

Wait a blasted minute your profile says recruit/civilian- either you are or you aren't. You signed a counseling statement- then NOW you should be in remedial PT, not before. You had better read the UCMJ, the service is NOT REQUIRED to give you a 2nd chance period. If you are a recruit in training, then if you have 3 different instances, then sure they can send you home as um-trainable.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2020 10:07 PM

2020-02-05T22:07:14-05:00

Fail numerous APFTs and continue to try to find legal loopholes... Sounds like just the type of Soldier every leader is looking for.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 5 at 2020 11:08 PM

2020-02-05T23:08:45-05:00

It is far better to take responsibility for your deficiencies by acting on a solution, rather than blame others for how they failed you. You might be correct that leaders didn't provide the remedial training, but you are wrong because being physically fit is an individual responsibility. If others "failed you" don't compound that by failing yourself. Get a trainer if you have to. There should be a master fitness trainer in the battalion or a personal trainer at a gym. There is all kinds of information on the web. There are all kinds of PT studs at arm's reach. Just get the job done. The only one who will pay consequences is you, and you won't be successful fighting a chapter simply arguing the chain of command failed you. Pt is an individual responsibility.

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Feb 5 at 2020 11:11 PM

2020-02-05T23:11:50-05:00

Passing the APFT is much easier than shithouse lawyering and scooping for loopholes.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 5 at 2020 11:17 PM

2020-02-05T23:17:38-05:00

You failed an APFT. That is you failing to meet standards of the army. They should have flagged you and they counseled you about the failure and indicated remedial PT. Then you repeat the process twice more? Yes, the counselings are valid. They counseled you, it was then up to seek out the remedial PT. You screwed yourself. Yes, they can chapter you and you have no leg to stand on. They should have chaptered you after the second APFT failure but they were either being kind or you slipped through the proverbial crack.

There are no loopholes. None. Your looking for loopholes and it sounds like the Army cannot get rid of you fast enough for its benefit.

I hope you mature once you are made a civilian and prove to be of some benefit to an employer.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Feb 6 at 2020 12:49 AM

2020-02-06T00:49:17-05:00

PT is an individual responsibility. It is YOUR responsibility to meet/exceed the physical requirements. The COC can choose to help you with remedial PT, but are not obligated to adjust their requirements to assist you in meeting yours.

YOU put yourself in this predicament - this is not the Army, or your Commands fault, take some personal responsibility, accountability, and face the consequences of your action/inaction - It should NOT TAKE your NCO's or Officers to light a fire under your ass to behave like an adult. This is real life, not the liberal fantasy of school or home where it's never your fault, it's the system or someone else.

Response by MSgt Michael Smith made Feb 6 at 2020 9:55 AM

2020-02-06T09:55:39-05:00

You should know that most of the time the regulations are written that it is the member's responsibility to meet standards regardless of all the mandatory plans.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 6 at 2020 10:17 AM

2020-02-06T10:17:52-05:00

Private RallyPoint Member Civilian | Recruit
Are you even in the military or are you a cadet someplace?
Did you forget to update your profile perhaps?
If actually in the Army, are you at a unit or still in IET? (Basic or AIT)

You need to go see TDS, nothing said here will be as valid and specifically on point to your situation as what they can guide you to.

That said, unless you have a short term justifiable reason to fail multiple attempts at the APFT, please consider separating from service. The APFT at minimum standards is surpassable by any non injured, non sick SM physically fit for military service..

Please see AR635-200 Chapter 13, Separation for Unsatisfactory Performance , para 13-2e
"e. Initiation of separation proceedings is required for Soldiers without medical limitations who have two consecutive failures of the Army physical fitness test per AR 350–1"
AND
13–4. Counseling and rehabilitation requirements
"Before initiating separation action against a Soldier, commanders will ensure that the Soldier has received adequate counseling and rehabilitation. Because military service is a calling different from any civilian occupation, a Soldier should not be separated when unsatisfactory performance is the sole reason for separation unless there have been efforts at rehabilitation. Paragraph 1–16 prescribes the counseling and rehabilitation requirements. "
AND
1–16. Counseling and rehabilitative requirements
AND
AR 350-1 , Physical readiness training program, para F-5, l (3)
"(3) Soldiers who fail a record APFT or fail to take a record APFT within 12 months will be flagged in accordance with AR 600–8–2. In the event of a record test failure, commanders may allow Soldiers to retake the test as soon as the Soldier and the commander feel the Soldier is ready to test (not to exceed 90 days). RA and AGR Soldiers without a medical profile will be retested no later than 90 days following the record APFT failure. "

And please understand, Military service is not for everyone. If you are struggling to meet minim APFT standards with no authored justification (injury or disease ) You will likely struggle with many other facets of military service.
Additionally your seeking assistance in "beating" the system, vice improving your performance is as telling as anything else that perhaps military service is not for you.

Response by SFC David Sepeda made Feb 6 at 2020 11:38 AM

2020-02-06T11:38:41-05:00

Well we’re there specific dates that the remedial PT was to commence? Also, did you attempt to do PT on your own as well? Remedial PT implies that it would be conducted during the duty day.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2020 11:44 AM

2020-02-06T11:44:34-05:00

You can fight the chapter by passing your APFT

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 6 at 2020 2:16 PM

2020-02-06T14:16:02-05:00

How badly do u wat 2 stay in?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2020 2:23 PM

2020-02-06T14:23:15-05:00

So you're essentially saying that you would only do the remedial PT if you had leadership present? The Soldiers Creed in which you learn day one states, " I am disciplined, physically and mentally tough"
Those aren't just words you learn, but words that you live by.

Response by CPL Earl Kochis made Feb 6 at 2020 3:55 PM

2020-02-06T15:55:19-05:00

If you can’t pass this pt test you damn sure will not pass the new one when it goes into effect!! Two you are listed as a civilian trying to find a loophole for someone’s failure.. if you cannot pass a pt test as it stands right now or do the work on your own to make sure you pass it “ which ultimately is your responsibility” there are gyms provided as well as plenty of tracks and roads to run on!! Then you need to just sign the paperwork and go find a civilian job you can do because you are not built to be a soldier!!!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2020 9:54 PM

2020-02-06T21:54:56-05:00

Yes it is something you can fight. I am going to assume you are trying with all your might to train on your own and pass it, but yes you can fight it, if the effort to pass on your own is there. You never know what exactly is going on with a soldier, physically or mentally.

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made Mar 16 at 2020 10:42 PM

2020-03-16T22:42:06-04:00

First of all what part did you fail. The Army Standard score of 180 or the commands standard XXX? If you failed the command standard and I seen some with no less of a 300 score. If you meet the Army standard score of 180 then you meet the standard and can't be reprimand, counseled, ordered for remedial PT or get booted out for failure of meeting Army standards (BMI). However I have seen commanders set a much higher score but when the standard score has been meet.
Here is a formula they might use. Command Standard 300 - Army Standard 180 = 120. So they use the 120 score as a failure to meet Army Standards. So the reprimand, counseling, ordered for remedial PT or get booted out for failure of meeting Army standards (BMI) process begins. I have seen it and been there and challenge it. We'll I won my case and did retire. Remember that you don't have to kill oneself to prove your worthiness to others, just only to the Army, Air Force, Navy, Marines & Coast Guard. If you can do more, than great. If your doing less, work on it.