Posted on Feb 1, 2014
APFT failure; is it ok to let an NCO retest in a week?
44.3K
239
112
5
4
1
At a recent APFT a NCO decided it would be a good idea to do the minimum amount of push-ups, sit-ups, and the run. While doing the push-ups this NCO miss counted how many he/she did. After the whole APFT was completed this person was informed. Instead of being flagged like any other person would be. This person gets to retake the APFT in a week. What's your thoughts of this?
Posted in these groups: 
APFT
APFT
Posted 12 y ago
Responses: 52
25
25
0
Unfair. No soldier should ever just shoot for the minimum score regardless. At my first unit (1st CAV!) two NCO's were doing the same thing (E5 type), after finishing both push-ups and sit-ups with the minimum score they high five'd and yelled their accomplishment. My PSG at the time saw this and went ballistic, he told them that as an NCO they should set the standard for Jr. Enlisted and that they disgusted him - he then started making them come into PT in the afternoon. And I think he was completely in the right for doing so. The soldier mentioned above should have been flagged and forced to do what everyone who gets flagged for failure does. Unacceptable that they were even attempting to just do the minimum. One of the biggest motivators in my career was when my 1SG walked past me and asked how I did on my last ruck (which was timed) my reply was that I passed - he replied with, "Is that what you want your life and career to be about? Just passing, just making it by? If so, this is the wrong career for you." Ever since then, I have pushed myself past limits I never thought possible.<div><br></div>
(25)
(0)
SGM (Join to see)
Excellent story SGT Mooney. Let me know if you are coming back to 1st CAV. I got a job for you in my BN.
SSG Marvi - CAV isnt as bad as people make it out to be, and I am a career Airborne guy ~Strike Hold!!
(6)
(0)
SFC Michael Hasbun
Flagged for passing? Interesting... (I'm refering to the NCO's in your story, not the OP's post).
(0)
(0)
SFC Kenneth Hunnell
Do you think the Army should raise the minimum to meet your best?
I see to many Soldier's right out of Basic and AIT fail a simple APFT
It would be great if everyone Maxed the APFT, then that would be the NEW standard
Now, as far as NCO's acting like fools only doing the minimum. They should have kept their feelings to themselves not spread it to other soldier's
I see to many Soldier's right out of Basic and AIT fail a simple APFT
It would be great if everyone Maxed the APFT, then that would be the NEW standard
Now, as far as NCO's acting like fools only doing the minimum. They should have kept their feelings to themselves not spread it to other soldier's
(1)
(0)
SFC (Join to see)
Interesting... unacceptable for passing the standard and had to come in for remedial after passing. Hmm did they pass the pt test or did they fail? Did they meet the standard or did they not? Does the new ncoer for E5s have a exceeds the standard block available or just a Met standard? I now know why they did the minimum. Because they knew even if they passed they still wouldn’t get credit for passing. Heaven forbid if you guys showed them respect as NCOs and gave them credit for stuff they did they might give a damn about your numbers. Also they did set an example for Soldiers. “They passed a test which there was a quantifiable standard”. I’m not one of those NCOs that’s like pt this and pt that and the war is won between the hour of 0630 to 0730. But I recognize it for what it is a standard. We don’t have push up contests with the enemy. This is one of many reasons what’s wrong with the army. It’s one of many reasons why we been at war for 15+ years. The reality is that SFC will retire and those junior NCOS are the future of the army.
(0)
(0)
20
20
0
I finally got back to this post and I see many have made several valuable comments but I would like someone to help clear this up.<div>Many, many have stated that "NCO's are the standard bearer" or " NCO's set the standard" or something along those lines. Many have added comments about NCO's doing the minimum. </div><div>People, I hate to break it to you but the minimum, IS THE STANDARD.</div><div>The standard for the APFT is 180 points, period! No one can dispute that, so when an NCO or soldier scores the minimum, that is the standard, and there is nothing anyone can do about it. No remedial PT, no extra PT, there are no unit standards allowed, the Army standard is the only standard. </div><div>Scoring higher is a personal choice or goal to set yourself apart from others. </div>
(20)
(0)
CSM Mike Maynard
SSG (Join to see), You may think it's semantics, but there is a significant difference between "standards" and "goals".
There is only one standard - the Army standard. Units can have "goals", but those aren't standards and that's why the last sentence specifically brings attention to Leaders/Units that try to replace their goals with the Army standard.
Additionally, failure to adhere to an Army Standard could result in flagging action, separation, bar, etc, but, failure to adhere to a unit goal can't.
Finally, failure to adhere to an Army standard requires discipline vs corrective action. Additional training during the duty day to overcome a unit goal weakness is corrective action and not discipline.
So, I understand what you were saying, but we have to be careful with our vocabulary as words mean things and we must ensure that the Army definition of terms remains consistent so that we are all speaking the same language.
There is only one standard - the Army standard. Units can have "goals", but those aren't standards and that's why the last sentence specifically brings attention to Leaders/Units that try to replace their goals with the Army standard.
Additionally, failure to adhere to an Army Standard could result in flagging action, separation, bar, etc, but, failure to adhere to a unit goal can't.
Finally, failure to adhere to an Army standard requires discipline vs corrective action. Additional training during the duty day to overcome a unit goal weakness is corrective action and not discipline.
So, I understand what you were saying, but we have to be careful with our vocabulary as words mean things and we must ensure that the Army definition of terms remains consistent so that we are all speaking the same language.
(5)
(0)
SSG (Join to see)
@CSM Mike Maynard
Roger that, and thank you CSM for your words of wisdom and enlightenment. However, I wasn't disputing that a Soldier meeting the Army standard can't be punished. My response to the post was because the Leader stated that there was no remedial PT (special conditioning) that could be given to a Soldier for simply meeting the standard on the APFT. Per the reg I posted this information is incorrect. He also stated that there wasn't anything anyone could do about it which is also wrong. If the NCO is normally a high PT scorer and was just having a bad day, that is one thing (which is what I meant by not being punishable. But if this same NCO constantly makes it a point to let everyone know (to include Jr Soldiers) that it is his intent to only meet the standard, the Commander could look at that as being disruptive to the good order and morale of the Unit, and also lack potential to advance in career due to not wanting/being competitive in his career field. We all know that meeting the bare minimum is not being competitive for promotion in today's Army. All that taken into account, it is the Commanders right (if he perceives the actions to be so) to bar that NCO from reenlisting as well as the option to chapter him under Chapter 13. Now I'm not saying that it will be done, or even if I agree that it should be. But to say that there is nothing anyone can do about it is bad information. Again, someone who is actually trying and meeting the standard, is a different story than someone who is intentionally only meeting the standard. If the Commander perceives that to be lack of potential to lead Soldiers, those are his options. I hope that clears up any confusion about the intent of my reply, CSM.
BAR TO REENLIST:
AR 601-280 para 8-4
d. Soldiers against whom a Bar to Reenlistment may be initiated. Soldiers may be barred from reenlistment for one or a combination of the below listed infractions or reasons. This listing provides examples of the rationale for the imposition of a bar and is not intended to be all-inclusive. Examples are—
(21) Noncompetitive for promotion:
(f) Lack of potential to become a supervisor or senior technician.
CHAPTER:
AR 635-200 para 13-2
a. Commanders will separate a Soldier for unsatisfactory performance when it is clearly established that
(3) The Soldier will likely be a disruptive influence in duty assignments.
(6) The Soldier’s potential for advancement or leadership is unlikely.
Roger that, and thank you CSM for your words of wisdom and enlightenment. However, I wasn't disputing that a Soldier meeting the Army standard can't be punished. My response to the post was because the Leader stated that there was no remedial PT (special conditioning) that could be given to a Soldier for simply meeting the standard on the APFT. Per the reg I posted this information is incorrect. He also stated that there wasn't anything anyone could do about it which is also wrong. If the NCO is normally a high PT scorer and was just having a bad day, that is one thing (which is what I meant by not being punishable. But if this same NCO constantly makes it a point to let everyone know (to include Jr Soldiers) that it is his intent to only meet the standard, the Commander could look at that as being disruptive to the good order and morale of the Unit, and also lack potential to advance in career due to not wanting/being competitive in his career field. We all know that meeting the bare minimum is not being competitive for promotion in today's Army. All that taken into account, it is the Commanders right (if he perceives the actions to be so) to bar that NCO from reenlisting as well as the option to chapter him under Chapter 13. Now I'm not saying that it will be done, or even if I agree that it should be. But to say that there is nothing anyone can do about it is bad information. Again, someone who is actually trying and meeting the standard, is a different story than someone who is intentionally only meeting the standard. If the Commander perceives that to be lack of potential to lead Soldiers, those are his options. I hope that clears up any confusion about the intent of my reply, CSM.
BAR TO REENLIST:
AR 601-280 para 8-4
d. Soldiers against whom a Bar to Reenlistment may be initiated. Soldiers may be barred from reenlistment for one or a combination of the below listed infractions or reasons. This listing provides examples of the rationale for the imposition of a bar and is not intended to be all-inclusive. Examples are—
(21) Noncompetitive for promotion:
(f) Lack of potential to become a supervisor or senior technician.
CHAPTER:
AR 635-200 para 13-2
a. Commanders will separate a Soldier for unsatisfactory performance when it is clearly established that
(3) The Soldier will likely be a disruptive influence in duty assignments.
(6) The Soldier’s potential for advancement or leadership is unlikely.
(1)
(0)
CW4 (Join to see)
I would argue that at Special Operation WOILE that your 1059 upon graduation could only be marginally achieved core standards if you did not score 80% in each event.
(0)
(0)
(0)
(0)
15
15
0
<p>Sounds like some "good ole boy" bs to me. This is wrong on many levels.</p><p><br></p><p>1. Doing the minimum in the first place. As NCOS we are expected to lead the way and set the standard. Does this mean that low pt scores make bad Leaders and high ones make good ones? Nope. But to intentionally do the minimum is bs and shouldn't be tolerated.</p><p><br></p><p>2. The fact that he miscounted tells me his grader was counting outloud as stated in the TC they will do</p><p><br></p><p>3. Being allowed to take another APFT without being flagged, counseled and placed on remedial pt tells me his NCO leadership is not doing their job, and most likely shows favoritism.</p><p><br></p><p>This is just my observation and opinion, but something doesn't add up here.</p>
(15)
(0)
SGM (Join to see)
Yes a standard is a standard and whether they miscounted or just plain messed up I would give them the chance to correct themselves.
I think some are thinking because he is an NCO it was a good ole boy system but in this situation I would have treated any Soldier the same (Junior enlisted, NCO Warrant Officer or Officer). There is a time to stick it to the Soldier and a time to sit back talk about the issue then give them an immediate chance to correct the issue.
I had a Soldier fail his PT one morning and he missed the sit-ups by 2. I asked him what was going on and he stated he was a little off today and he truly regretted not making it. I told him he would retake it 2 days later. When he retook it he scored 78% in the sit-up event.
Sometimes shi$ happens and we have to help the Soldier along. I am not advocating a free pass but just some understanding.
I guarantee I wouldn't let it happen again.
(3)
(0)
SGT(P) (Join to see)
LT Anisimov good point.
SGT Swanson if it is happening often what is being done about it ? I understand that parts of your leadership might be apart of the "good ole boy" but, have you gone to someone else or encouraged your battles to do so ? If not you have to think of it in the same light as your shining on this. Soldiers are watching and listening and waiting to see what YOU are going to do and if nothing is being done your sending the same message as the one retaking the APFT. (Not a attack, just my thoughts)
(2)
(0)
(2)
(0)
SSG Kevin McCulley
REMEMBER NCOs, we do NOT set standards. We enforce them. We exemplify them. The only people who can set standards for the Army are the Secretary of the Army & the Chief of Staff. We can set goals but not standards.
(2)
(0)
Read This Next
Continue with Facebook 
Continue with Google