Are 24 hour staff duty shifts putting people in danger?

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 03:05:25 -0400

Hypothetical Situation: SM kills SM after duty shift. After a 24 hour staff duty shift, PVT or SGT or LT Snuffy has to drive 30 minutes home to his home to rest. Due to extreme fatigue, he/she passes out, and ends up in a head-on collision with another car. Lets say it's a pregnant mother and child, who both die.<br><br>Who is to blame? Snuffy or command policy? <br>

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2014 3:08 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 03:08:55 -0400

Joe Snuffy is at fault. There's no regulation stating they have to drive themselves home. I've seen many instances of significant others, or battle buddies, giving relieved staff duty soldiers transport home. <br>

Response by SSG William Patton made Apr 3 at 2014 10:35 PM

SSG William Patton — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 22:35:57 -0400

This scenario, if realistic, would fall under the rules and laws that apply to impaired drivers. We all make decisions and should look at the elements involved before making a decision. We know basic rules, like if you are tired, pull over and rest. If you have just pulled a 24, that means you have probably been up more than 24 hours and that is tatamount to being intoxicated as it relates to reaction time and/or passing out if intoxicated. The driver would be responsible for their actions, just like an intoxicated driver would be if they drive after drinking too much. We should all know our physical limitations and have common sense enough to not push the envelope if we feel too fatigued to make the trip safely.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2014 11:01 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 23:01:45 -0400

Honestly, I've never heard of an incident where a SM driving home from a 24hr shift, falling asleep behind the wheel on the drive home. Not saying it hasn't happened, but in my years I have never heard this as an issue. Also, considering I've been on a lot of 24hr shifts and have interacted with people on these shifts during my time in the military, there's usually one person on watch while the other goes down for a couple of hours. Is it right? Meh, but it happens and is probably the reason why this "issue" isn't as big as some are making it out to be.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Apr 4 at 2014 1:19 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 04 Apr 2014 01:19:50 -0400

Here's a stunning fact. Guess what, you don't have to do a 24 hour shift to be too tired to drive and fall asleep behind the wheel. It is always the driver's fault for whatever he does behind the wheel.

Should we have 24 hour shifts has nothing to do with it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 5 at 2014 3:03 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Jul 2014 03:03:36 -0400

in response to this post I had staff duty on the 3rd of july after returning from a 10 day field exercise on the 2nd which had me awake for about 20 hours a day processing fire missions. I had requested an empty barracks room so I could get a nap before driving home after my shift and was denied well as I was driving home I fell asleep and ran off the road to sleep it off because since it was a holiday week-end people did not want to answer their phone or they were out of town. So I will have to say yes they are putting them in danger

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 6:07 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 18:07:20 -0400

Bottom line is everyone wants to act like the raddest baddest soldier around and say 24 hour duty is nothing. I may or may not have been one of those soldiers myself once upon a time but that's not the point. Today is shift number 7 in a row of day on day off 24 hour staff duty for me. Sure I'm still alive and there are worse places I could be but unless you have experienced so many 24 hour duty shifts IN A ROW, then its easy to dismiss it. The fact of the matter is being up for so long at a time is incredibly unhealthy. It wears you down physically and mentally. It all goes back to that story of all the monkeys in one room beating each other up for climbing the latter. "Well that's just how its always been"

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 23 at 2014 2:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 23 Sep 2014 14:28:49 -0400

This is a difficult quesiton to answer. The Command, in my opinion, should be responsible if this were to occur. The SM can't avoid these duty shifts, unless they have a profile that prevents it, so they are forced to work 24 or more hours with no sleep before they can get off and grab some shuteye. Also, the people that have profiles (or excuses) that prevent them from working these shifts create more shifts for the other SMs to have to work, compounding the risk of an accident happening. I was under the impression that the Army was all about risk assesment and preventing unneccessary risks. Why is it then that this falls by the wayside? This is something that is going to bite a Commander in the butt one day. I just hope it's not my family that is involved when it happens!

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2014 12:27 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 10 Oct 2014 12:27:12 -0400

When I was at fort Bliss I had to drive between 20-30 minutes to get to post, and I would normally wake up at the same time as I would everyday, just due to habit, which was around 0500. So I would be awake from 0500 until I was at work at 0900 for a 24 hour shift. After said shift I had to drive the 20-30 minutes back to my home, while I know that being up prior to the shift was on my, and no one told me to live so far from post. It is still poor risk management to partake in for the command to put Soldiers in a position where something like this could happen. We are supposed to conduct safety briefs and tell our Soldiers that they need to make sure they get proper sleep prior to driving any distance.

Sorry for reviving this post.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Oct 15 at 2014 7:56 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 07:56:55 -0400

In the days of cell phones and email, staff duty is an anachronism anyway. It's time to get rid of the archaic practice..

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 15 at 2014 9:13 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 09:13:32 -0400

im not focussing on the blame. i am focussing on how to fix the problem. staff duty is a way to let leaders know what is going on. well, blackberries are too. i agree that a higher headquarters whould have some sort of duty officer or NCO there to accomplish those duties. but how do we do it. it needs to be a team. you know how many times i sat on duty where the NCO had to stay awake but the duty officer was allowed to sleep in the back? i got it. we're as hard a woodpecker lips. i usually would send my driver to bed. once, the LT came out and told me that the SPC should be up with me. i told him that maybe he should stay up with me instead, since the soldier was considered the Runner/Driver he would need the most rest.

Response by SFC Melker Johansson made Oct 15 at 2014 8:59 PM

SFC Melker Johansson — Wed, 15 Oct 2014 20:59:20 -0400

24 hours? At my old units they required us to do morning PT even if we were going to pull staff duty afterwards. That made it a 27 hours duty shift. Up at 5.30am to get ready for morning PT and then come back home around 10am the next day. I blame the command for accidents that's caused by this ill advised practice.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 17 at 2014 11:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Oct 2014 23:16:14 -0400

I would gladly have 12 hr CQ shifts more often than have 24 hr ones. It's not so bad for me as I live only about 5 mins away, but I know a lot of people live 20, 30, 50 mins away. Plus having to do PT beforehand only drains the body even more. I know that often people will let one person catch a couple hours and then switch, but technically, at least where I am, at night, the NCO is supposed to go do rounds every single hour. But then the other person would have to be awake while they're gone correct?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:26 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 13:26:18 -0500

I've been asking the same question for years now

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2014 1:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 13:31:16 -0500

A lot of times the unit will make you come in for pt before your duty. Just think about it. That's over 24 hours of no sleep. I myself have found it hard to make it home after pulling duty. I once had to pull over and take a nap. Mind you I only lived 20 min from post.

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Dec 19 at 2014 5:13 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Fri, 19 Dec 2014 17:13:08 -0500

I'd argue the command is at fault. No the command is not telling the SM to drive home after a 24 hour duty, but it is implied. Did they put a program in place to ensure SMs get home safely? Do they offer an alternate means to sleep before driving home? Was this danger mentioned in a safety brief with ways to mitigate the risk? If the soldier admitted to being too tired to drive, would the command have responded properly without unnecessary criticism for this 'weakness'? From my experience the answer to all of the above has been no.

When I am on staff duty, I try to let my runner have time to sleep even if its just a few hours. On weekends this is harder to do, since SMs are constantly locking themselves out of their rooms or causing a nuisance. Driving while sleep deprived is worse than driving drunk, but the command punishes one and ignores the other. If we don't foster an environment where its acceptable for a SM to admit he/she is too tired to do a task, then the command will always be partially at fault.

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Jan 21 at 2015 6:53 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 06:53:09 -0500

In all seriousness, what do you Army types call "Staff Duty"? For us blue suiters, that means working on the Group/Wing/NAF/MAJCOM staff and riding a desk doing the 0730-1630 gig.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Feb 9 at 2015 2:01 AM

MAJ Raúl Rovira — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 02:01:07 -0500

Staying up for 24 hours is not a normal human thing to do. Unless you are in survival mode and staff duty is not that situation. To be up for 24 hours takes a lot out of the body and mind. Personally, I am not a fan of these 24-Hour duties but it is the reality of the Army and we are stuck with it.

A responsible adult needs to asses his/her condition before getting on the wheel. Think of firefighters on shift, nurses, doctors, medical students on residency, missile officer and so on. Their jobs require them to be up way more than they should. Hopefully they assess their condition prior to getting on the road.

24 hour staff duty does not make sense. Driving after 24 hour duty for 30 minutes does not make sense. Yet, the both happen.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2015 2:42 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 09 Feb 2015 02:42:48 -0500

I see a lot of post saying that the 24 hour duty is an "archaic" process, we have blackberrys and computers, we do not need to do this anymore.

It is very important to have a 24 hour presence in the unit area. Yes it is an old "tradition" and technology has improved but it has not improved to the point of being immediately on the scene. I cannot speak for other services but we operate 24 hours a day in the Army, we don't shut down the TOC for the night and then start the battle again in the morning.

I have seen CQ and staff duty NCOs save Soldiers lives. They are representing the CDR/CSM or CDR/1SG in their absence. Their DA Form 1594 shows the CSM/1SG that discipline is being maintained and the unit (and all equipment) is secure.

I have never personally heard of anyone crashing into a family of four while returning home after a 24 hour duty, that's not saying it hasn't happened. I think most NCOs are pretty smart and let their runners "nap" throughout the shift. I was usually wide awake once everyone started coming in for the day, it was the 0200-0500 time frame that whooped my butt.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 6:20 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 06:20:36 -0400

It's absolutely still a necessary function, even with a blackberry or personal cell phone staff duty is the one phone number that ALWAYS gets answered regardless of what is going on. It also starts the ball rolling immediately if the unit has an incident such as a training accident, deployment incident, or even a car accident. It is a primary function of preventing things from becoming more serious incidents in the barracks as well.
The fact that it is 24 hours is immaterial, it has always been 24 hours since I came in and should stay that way. It is up to that NCO and Junior Officer to ensure they they and their troops are good for the commute home. Staff duty isn't so action packed that you can't put guys down for an hour each at some point throughout the night to make sure they aren't road hazards the next morning. It's the same common sense and doctrinal practice you use in a patrol base, you can cut security to 33% if the situation allows in the field so why not at staff duty?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2015 9:03 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 03 May 2015 09:03:43 -0400

The driving part is only one part of the problem. There are associated health problems that the military is getting stuck with the long term medical care for. If we eliminate the 24 hour Staff and CQ duty i wonder how much money over the course of 5, 10, or 20 years with less SM's getting disability pay over sleep issues.

Response by SGT Lawrence Corser made May 30 at 2015 1:00 PM

SGT Lawrence Corser — Sat, 30 May 2015 13:00:49 -0400

the units could/should set up a rest room for these people to get a minimum 4 hours of sleep after the shift. I almost crashed a few times trying to suck it up and drive home after CQ.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 19 at 2015 11:23 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 19 Jul 2015 11:23:34 -0400

I've had to pull duty driver multiple times since I've been to my new post. As the duty driver, I tend to get called by sections in my company that need things to be picked up or dropped off in a timely manner. I work in a hospital, and when our lab goes down everything needs to be transported to another hospital or lab specimens go bad. On one of those nights I got a call at around 0400 to drop off some stuff at another hospital. At 0430 I was at the hospital with no recollection of how I got there. About 20 hours of almost non-stop driving is dangerous and I still had to continue after that... sure I can stay up for over 30 hours, but its not a good idea.

I feel like it's my fault if I crash the TMP, but it's also my unit's fault for failing to take care of the driver. I'll follow the guidance given in the duty book. Most of us lower enlisted are taught to not question orders. Reading this post it's clear why, while most of the lower enlisted seem to think a 24 duty is a bad idea for safety, the senior members replying seem to think the answer is more disipline. In my opinion leaders care less about the soldier's welfare and just want to maintain the status quo because it's always been that way.

Leaders, just a heads up in some units this is a valid safety concern.... not just common bitching.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Sep 6 at 2015 11:42 AM

SSG Clayton Lam — Sun, 06 Sep 2015 11:42:29 -0400

Staff duty needs to be changed. There are too many levels. You have BDE and BN staff duty. You have CQ. Instead of Staff duty let CQ be the place where people sign in and out on leave. Let SSGs and SGTs pull CQ so Soldiers do not have it so often. Senior NCOs and officers should just be on call. Why should a CQ be there during the day? They should only have to be there at night. Why yell at CQ for dirty common areas such as the laundry room? It is not the fault of CQ that grown adults cannot clean up after themselves. Staff duty should be a senior NCO or an officer with a government issued cell that CQ can call if something goes wrong. The doors to each battalion have locks. If there are extra duty Soldiers, then the NCO of that Soldier should accompany that Soldier. It needs to change.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2015 9:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Sep 2015 21:55:34 -0400

The 24 hour Staff or CQ duty is as outdated as lining up 40 meters from the enemy and firing volleys from your musket.
We should reduce it to a 13 hour duty, 1700 to 0600.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2015 1:44 AM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 Sep 2015 01:44:03 -0400

there should be 12 hour shift rotations. that way its still 24 hours but now you have less risk. one for day and one for night. not that hard in my opinion.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2015 8:40 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:40:12 -0400

this happens to me but on a different senario. after 24 hours of staff duty, im heading home. i stop on a red light. then when it turns green i just drove, then suddently the car in front of me slows down. and i continue driving. i was aware that theres a car in front of me. i was aware that im about to hit the car. but instead of slowing down or stoping. i just hit the continue to drive and hit the car.

maybe just maybe. if theres a mandatory sleep cycle everything will be just fine.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2015 8:40 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Sep 2015 20:40:50 -0400

yes

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Sep 18 at 2015 9:56 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Fri, 18 Sep 2015 21:56:14 -0400

I don't think people should have 24 hour duty -- in general

Response by PO2 Jonathan Scharff made Sep 19 at 2015 7:19 AM

PO2 Jonathan Scharff — Sat, 19 Sep 2015 07:19:04 -0400

This is kind of silly to me. The Coast Guard has been handling this issue for decades correctly. It is organized more like a firehouse is run as far as 24 hour watch is concerned. There is always at least one person (usually 2) "on watch" (4 hour period) and the entire rest of the "crew" is asleep. Why, because if or should I say when the call comes in you have to go immediately and you can't be incoherent from being up 24 hours to start with. This seems like such an easy problem to fix. Make the watch shorter or add a few more individuals to the watch so that they can rack rotate, but they could all be awakened if an emergency occurs. And I have never heard of a Coastie running into a tree on the way home after a watch.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 25 at 2015 9:02 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 25 Oct 2015 21:02:14 -0400

Just because it's 24 hour shift doesn't mean it's only 24 hours awake.

Let me paint this picture of an actual REGULARE occurrence on Schofield Barracks:

NCO lives in AMR, a 30 minute drive from home to post. 225 BSB required all Staff Duty and CQ to go to and conduct PT. Our show time was 0620:

0535 Wake up.
0550 Leave house. 15 minutes awake.
0620 Accountability. 45 minutes awake.
0900 CQ begins. 3 hours awake.
0900 of the next day CQ ends... Except it doesn't. The relief NCO wasn't notified of his shift (regular occurance due to usual military communication). 27 hours awake.
1130 relief arrives. 29 and a half hours awake.

At this point, NCO has to drive to Staff Duty in order to turn in 1594s. Then they got to drive home.

Would you want your family on the road with someone who was REQUIRED to be awake for about 30 hours?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2016 9:29 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 May 2016 21:29:13 -0400

Airforce doesn't have Staff Duty or CQ. Everything all there when they come back in the morning. Crazy huh?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2016 4:20 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 08 Aug 2016 04:20:25 -0400

Well as I sit here on staff duty, trying to find things to keep me awake and stimulate my mind, I ran across this blog. We are saying 24 hour staff duty, but actually if you include personal hygiene and reasonable travel time to and from duty, this is 25 hours+ duty. The Army has always contradicted themselves. You want to implement this Performance Triad and it talks about proper rest and reducing stress but you have practices such as 24 hour duty in place. I have dozed off behind the wheel at a light while conducting security checks on the barracks and other areas of responsibility. This practice is very dangerous and someone needs to really asses this situation a whole lot. 12 hour shift duty makes perfectly good sense to me on the weekends and during the week coming to work at 1600 till 0730 the next morning makes sense to cover down for the presence of the 1SG and CO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2017 5:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:23:45 -0500

I noticed a bunch of responses are coming from people that are in a position to make these changes to their respective SOPs. Why don’t y’all make the changes allowing a sleep rotation? You can stop the whole “that’s how we have always done it” and start something new and better. I think we all agree that Staff Duty and CQ is a necessary evil, but we could accomplish it by allowing sleep rotations. Just my thoughts

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jan 1 at 2018 2:50 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 01 Jan 2018 14:50:41 -0500

I'm sorry, you are joking right? Seriously my longest time with out sleep is 96 hrs deploying my battalion to and from an EDRE. In combat it's been 48 hrs +. If you can't stay awake for 24 1/2 hours then you will be worthless in a combat mission.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 6:50 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 18:50:37 -0400

I agree that it’s important to have a presence present to represent the unit and to be available for soldiers. But I also think that the better command teams will allow the NCO and runners to rotate sleeping shifts. A persons mental capabilities decrease when sleep deprived. Once when I had staff duty in Germany I got off shift and stumbled to bed and was called a half hour later and told I was going to the field. I didn’t get to sleep until 2300 later that night. I was exhausted and it took several days to recover because when I did get some sleep it wasn’t restful because I only got five hours. I understand that as soldiers we’ll have times when being without sleep happens but not unnecessarily. Giving those on staff duty time to sleep is something all units should put in their SOP.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 28 at 2019 7:12 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 19:12:17 -0400

Ah Gee- So to rest up, Lets never ever have anybody work 24 hrs, try that in combat operations young Sir. If a flipping trooper can't work 24 hrs and function long enough to drive to his quarters, or stay over in the billets- than that sad sack should be sent home permanently! And for those crying that it is antiquated have probably never been in a unit that could/would and does deploy in 18 hours or less around the world. Part of that duty is to check on the billets, troops and motor pools of the unit, which should be important to all in responsible positions. Don't think they would let you pass on alert orders over a civilian phone/fax, etc either.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 8:36 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 20:36:35 -0400

In regards to culpability, I think it depends. Does the unit leadership utilizes polices to prevent incidents like this from occurring? I think something leaders should be mindful of is some Soldiers, particularly younger and less experienced Soldiers think they're invincible and/or are afraid of asking for help in fear of being perceived as weak or being a dirt bag. It can be easy to rationalize driving while impaired by thinking "I'm not really that tired/impaired, or I'm a good driver or I'll drive extra slow." Preaching the ethos "Army Strong" can be very useful for motivating Soldiers to push themselves to the limit. However, care should be taken that Soldiers are taking this ethos to the extreme of engaging in unnecessarily dangerous and reckless actions.

On the other hand, leaders can't micromanage their Soldiers 100% of the time. Sometimes it falls on individual Soldiers to make the right call and to not do something stupid and/or unsafe.

Response by SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM made Aug 25 at 2022 8:26 PM

SFC David Reid, M.S, PHR, SHRM-CP, DTM — Thu, 25 Aug 2022 20:26:28 -0400

It's depends on how labor intensive the job is an pace of performing those work task. Also. You should consider the economic or layout of the wotkplace.