Are grooming standards in the military outdated and without purpose?

COL Lee Flemming — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:00:04 -0400

Beards, tattoos, and long hair...what's right and when? Discipline, cohesion and uniformity... vs. relaxed grooming standards?

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Sep 20 at 2016 9:02 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:02:45 -0400

Had tats for many years but no sleeves and not visible. Would like a ZZ Top beard. Appearance and professional image though is important today as well. Discipline is already tested in more ways than one...punctuality, job standard, expectation, and accountability are missing a lot COL Lee Flemming

Response by Maj Walter Kilar made Sep 20 at 2016 9:08 AM

Maj Walter Kilar — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:08:57 -0400

I am a big fan of differentiating standards between garrison and deployment. In a deployment scenario where military members are away from barracks/dorms/home for extended periods of time, it makes sense to relax grooming standards (beards, mustaches, hair). In garrison, I am okay with the current grooming standards, since we are a professional military and we should uphold a higher standard. As far as tattoos are concerned, I would leave that up to each service as to what image that service wants to portray.

Are the standards outdated and without purpose? I would not go that far. If I were king, I would definitely modify the standards for all deployed personnel. I certainly did not like walking between tents or trailers just to shave with cold water, but there needs to be some kind of standard to prevent someone from avoiding the shower for six months. Sometimes the silly grooming standards serve to remind military members to take care of themselves daily, even in austere conditions.

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Sep 20 at 2016 9:12 AM

MSG Floyd Williams — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:12:17 -0400

When there is time and in a safe environment grooming is still the soldier responsibility.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 9:19 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:19:52 -0400

Can't tell you how many times I saw a CSM go ape crazy after seeing a route clearance patrol come in after three days outside the wire trying to get hot chow with beard stubble before the DFAC Closed. Certainly feel there is massive room for improvement especially in the combat environment. Discipline in appearance does not equal combat effectiveness or combat discipline, in fact in many instances perfectly capable soldiers are discounted due to their gruffness or lack of administrative skills.

Response by SPC Kevin Ford made Sep 20 at 2016 9:20 AM

SPC Kevin Ford — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:20:36 -0400

It's hard to make a cohesive unit out of people who's priority is to be different.

To be clean cut is part of the ceremony of being part of the team. That's not to say no level of personal expression should be allowed, but it shouldn't be the wild wild west either.

Response by CPT Jim Schwebach made Sep 20 at 2016 9:22 AM

CPT Jim Schwebach — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:22:34 -0400

Relaxed grooming standards in the combat zone or on mission have depended on the mission in the past. Try maintaining a low profile wandering around in a Middle Eastern city or countryside clean shaven and with a high and tight. Having lived in that environment I know that getting acceptance and communication with the locals is difficult when one goes in looking like an Amrika'i. Given that, I sometimes wonder why I see operators with the appearance pictured above. Looking like Soldiers, American Soldiers, who care enough about the people who they are working with that they have studied their local tradition, culture and language is much more impressive than bare arms and beards.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Sep 20 at 2016 9:30 AM

CSM Richard StCyr — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:30:45 -0400

The combat beards are to help folks be accepted by the locals in the mid east. I never figured out the purpose for running around half necked though. Sun burn sucks and is a vector for infections. I always had a flat top and tight taper to help keep critters from latching on.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 9:41 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 09:41:13 -0400

yes , I think its time to stop this madness about shaving LOL its getting old. Im pretty sure that if needed we can shave it all off if we need to put on our pro masks

Response by SGT Tim Soyars made Sep 20 at 2016 10:24 AM

SGT Tim Soyars — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:24:28 -0400

I remember having to shave sometimes twice a day during BCT/AIT. I served in some pretty high speed units. We may have had some scruff on after a few day patrol, but never a beard. Back then, that was the domain of SF & Delta. I still lean that way. If you are going to an area and need to blend in or fit into the culture, by all means, if it's your mission, grow it. Most 18 & 19 YO PV2s and PFCs have a hard time growing a beard. Guess that's why we don't see them on Rangers, but on SF. Gotta be able to grow a beard to be in SF, right?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 10:44 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:44:06 -0400

This is a complicated question because there are many factors to consider for why relaxed grooming standards can be necessary. To start off with, you can't shed a high and tight over night, nor can you grow a beard over night. Longer hair distances the impression that someone could be a service member in environments where a service member is looking to maintain a low profile. Beards sometimes are called for for cultural reasons, and they also can defeat many types of facial recognition technology (also the reason why some service members are encouraged to wear sunglasses in media heavy environments).

That said, I've seen plenty of cases where relaxed grooming standards are used when they are completely unnecessary. There is the mistaken idea that anytime you deploy to a predominantly Muslim country you must have a beard. The reality is that in many Muslim countries, the only people wearing huge beards are radical Islamist and jihadis. Long shaggy hair is also seen as inappropriate because in many countries, it is associated with being unkept and unprofessional.

In almost any environment, visible tattoos are a bad idea for more reasons than I have time to get into. I find it idiotic that some guys try to justify relaxed grooming standards to maintain a low profile while they have tattoos up their neck and down to their wrists (I'm looking at you MARSOC).

However to be perfectly honest, a lot of reasons why the military went to clean shaven and high and tights are outdated. Beards don't prevent you from sealing a gas mask. While skin conditions and parasites can be an issue, it is nowhere near what was in past decades because of improvements to personal hygiene products.

I do think that there should be a little more give in a combat environment in terms of grooming based on the situation. A patrol coming in from a 3 day recon mission shouldn't have shaving as a top priority before they can get a hot meal. Rushing shaving when you are dirty and using reclaimed water can actually increase the chances of infection. Still, the average service member doesn't need to run around looking like a ZZ Top knockoff.

Response by Capt Tom Brown made Sep 20 at 2016 10:54 AM

Capt Tom Brown — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 10:54:41 -0400

Evidently it is something which is tolerated by the COC all the way to the top. They must have a good rationale for turning a blind eye or tolerating relaxed sloppy grooming standards but no none knows for sure. Seeing these scrotty GIs wandering around unshaven, with a proliferation of uniforms and weapons makes one wonder if such affectations a professional make. As for blending in for some reason, it seems highly likely that every American over there is immediately recognized for who and what s/he is, disguised or not.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 11:04 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:04:11 -0400

Honestly I like the idea but we have the rules in place. The reason we don't relax is because it keeps people sharp. We teach people the pay attetion to all the details not just what pleases them. Long hair take longer to clean and in most cases we don't always have the time or resources for long showers.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Sep 20 at 2016 11:39 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:39:01 -0400

One word: Gas!

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Sep 20 at 2016 11:45 AM

CPT Jack Durish — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 11:45:44 -0400

I hate to shave. Scraping one's face every day is a chore. It's infinitely less fun with cold water (or no water), especially when you have a beard like copper wire (like mine). I see no problem with a closely cropped beard (one that an adversary can't grab).

Response by SSG Ray Murphy made Sep 20 at 2016 12:02 PM

SSG Ray Murphy — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 12:02:22 -0400

Adjust for the mission, climate etc. Just to have, to have? Ludicrous speed.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Sep 20 at 2016 2:18 PM

CAPT Kevin B. — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 14:18:25 -0400

I remember having a large beard, but it was more a necessity when working outdoors all the time in Antarctica. They were legal service wide then after Zumwalt came in. I did shave it after PCSing to a MC base primarily to avoid all the side grief. Part of the grooming discussion revolves about the term "uniform". Like what we wear, there's a push to mostly look the same as well. We see it in female hair above the collar, male hair cut standards, etc. Tats have been regulated then unregulated to death mostly because if you want recruits, you have to allow it. So we've been into an operational necessity mode for some time with beards. Problem is some of our patriotic Operators get gigged on leave when they're heading back soon by the REMFs. Bottom line, I never got my buns in a wad over it with people not in my unit. I wouldn't know what their rotation was.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 20 at 2016 3:48 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 15:48:42 -0400

I always thought they went hand in hand with spitshinedboots and crispy uniforms. DISCIPLINE,! Now it's just putting on clothes for work.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 4:45 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:45:10 -0400

If we are going to be equal and uniform, let's be equal and uniform across the board, why don't female servicemembers have to shave, or cut their hair? What they're not required, to be able to use a gas mask? it's obvious that most females don't grow a lot of facial hair, but there are those exceptions out there, that can grow a full beard, and it's completely authorized within all the service branches, is regulations. Also, why should they be able to use earrings or make up?

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Sep 20 at 2016 4:53 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 16:53:54 -0400

There was a time . . .

Response by SPC John Decker made Sep 20 at 2016 5:29 PM

SPC John Decker — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 17:29:15 -0400

My vote goes to uniformity. As a member of the military, whichever branch, you are an asset. Trained to do what the CinC, DoD and other superiors want done. Tats, not visible when on duty, should be allowed. Beards, besides being a mask issue, should not be allowed as not everyone can grown one. It would allow for distraction within the ranks. Long hair is simply a matter of discipline. The senior nco that chews out troops coming back from patrol is out of line. Regardless of what regs we're talking about, there should always be circumstantial judgement calls to be made. You can't reasonably expect troops to shave while on patrol. The remnants of shaving might give away the fact that they were there.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Sep 20 at 2016 5:44 PM

SSG John Jensen — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 17:44:24 -0400

the real reason for short hair in the military?????? LICE, WWI lots of men in barracks together, the only reason for the the short hair is LICE

Response by SFC George Smith made Sep 20 at 2016 6:04 PM

SFC George Smith — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 18:04:36 -0400

Relaxed Grooming Standards are Needed if not Required in specific areas and on specific missions...

Response by SSG John Jensen made Sep 20 at 2016 6:23 PM

SSG John Jensen — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 18:23:52 -0400

virtually every culture in the history of the world - Warriors never cut their hair, it's a symbol of their virility (its in the Bible too), Who has short hair??? Slaves, they have no virility. So what does that do to your sense of manhood, I belong to that group that's the exemption, my hair is going away on its own - and now the dna scientists have given us something else for the equation, if you are an adult male with a full head of hair - it's because you have more female chromosones that a bald man

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 7:33 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 19:33:35 -0400

From a newly minted GI's perspective: when I lived in Germany, before joining the Guard, you could always tell a soldier from the rest of the crowd due to the the grooming. It was and still is a sure fire way of targeting soldiers specifically. I personally never cared about this because It never bothered me to have a few soldiers around. But from the opposite side, I kinda dislike the easy target sign on my head and face due to the lack of hair. When I had my afro and goatee, I never got asked about the military and etc, but once I started getting the high and tights, it became a dead giveaway. Personally, I think this system is a bit outdated, but it's not without its merits. I love the fact that if I need to find some battle buddies in the crowd, all I need to do is see the haircuts.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 20 at 2016 9:10 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:10:09 -0400

Personally i feel like shaving standards should be more laxed. I'm not saying go out and grow a giant bundle of manliness on your face, but maybe even the 1/4th inch rule like those with profiles. Shaving every day, especially in the field environment can open up small wounds susceptible to irritation and infection

Response by TSgt Marco McDowell made Sep 20 at 2016 9:10 PM

TSgt Marco McDowell — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:10:34 -0400

C'mon, every service has a grooming standard and uniform regs. All which soldiers, sailors,airmen, coasties and Marines push to the edge. Even now all you need to say is my face hurts and get a shaving waiver. Go full beard and it's one more thing to micromanage. I get it, operators get bushy-mane and wear what they want during ops...but I also see them strolling around in garrison looking that way and everyone is afraid to say something. What's going to be the standard for beards and goatees? Length width? Can you dye it? Faddish shaping? Is this how the general American populace envisions how the military should look or are the more comfortable with a shaven and cut look. If a dude can't sprout a full beard, can he get hormone treatments? What if it's all scraggly or spotty, does he have to shave it? Guys can barely keep a mustache within regulation, I can't imagine authorized beards working out. There are countries that allow them but those dudes aren't always fighting their system and conform to their facial hair requirements. I just can't see it happening in the US where you guys have 6 inches of hair slicked back or micro-fros as they toe the line.

Response by COL William Oseles made Sep 20 at 2016 9:51 PM

COL William Oseles — Tue, 20 Sep 2016 21:51:08 -0400

If you are in the midle of a Nerve Agent or Blood Agent attack you don't have a couple of minutes to go shave.
And when you look at the unconventional battles going on today, there are several groups using chemical weapons.

Response by PO2 Bob Haskins made Sep 21 at 2016 12:37 AM

PO2 Bob Haskins — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 00:37:26 -0400

I had tats while in. But I wasn't spec ops or in a position where it mattered such as honor guard etc.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2016 5:06 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 05:06:37 -0400

I think it's time to relax the grooming standards to a degree, both for operational and for force protection purposes. We live under a constant threat of terrorism, both at home and abroad, and service members are primary targets for terrorists, whether in uniform or not. Allowing them to blend in with the civilian population more will help to mitigate the risk. I'm not saying we should get all crazy with the long hair and long beards, but a "business casual" hair style and a short cropped beard should be acceptable, and will also help service members to blend in more. I remember watching the AFN commercials in Germany where they said we should blend in with the locals while living overseas. Well that's hard to do when we all have high and tights. The locals can spot us a mile away, even when we take the time to dress as they do.

Now in an operational setting, a little more leeway should be given, especially in the Middle East where beards are the norm. I know that many "old school" Soldiers will say that strict grooming standards demonstrait a high level of discipline, but that's just how our society has been programmed to think, but there's no did unitive proof of this. The fact is, Armies have had long hair and beards for centuries, and many of them were more disciplined than any Soldier today could ever hope to be, mostly due to the hardships they had to endure that are no longer commonplace in today's military. Now if the point is to look neat and "professional", again, as long as the hair and beard are neatly cropped, they can still be considered to be neat and professional.

Response by Sgt Lee Richards made Sep 21 at 2016 7:54 AM

Sgt Lee Richards — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 07:54:00 -0400

Uniformity is an absolute during basic training, times are different now and our country is sure different now, the men are just displaying another form of comradeship, while yes it needs to be in check, it also should be embraced.

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Sep 21 at 2016 10:23 AM

SSgt David Tedrow — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 10:23:30 -0400

Grooming standards in the military must be enforced by the area of operation. Standards are necessary and should be enforced, but that being said, they must be enforced using some common sense. Garrison personnel should be expected to meet all standards while combat area of operation should have relaxed standards.

Response by 1SG Al Brown made Sep 21 at 2016 10:25 AM

1SG Al Brown — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 10:25:36 -0400

That was the first tour uniform. Changed flack vest types 3 different times in 4 years. This argument will never be settled. FORSCOM will enforce 670-1, and SOCOM do what they need to do. Just walk fast between Camp Vance and the Green Bean, and maybe you won't get corrected by someone with nothing to do that has escaped the JOC. P.S. This is my uninformed opinion. I am a no tab leg and I know nothing about this subject.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Sep 21 at 2016 11:50 AM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 11:50:37 -0400

While many of you may agree that "beards for all" should be considered. The men posted on the topic pic are men with a unique skill sets that have contributed to a major part in the war. The whole beard thing is like the black beret. They are not as cool as everyone thinks they are. You only desire one because you cant have one. Once everyone gets one, I can guarantee you that you will not want to wear it.

Response by Cpl Justin Goolsby made Sep 22 at 2016 10:09 AM

Cpl Justin Goolsby — Thu, 22 Sep 2016 10:09:58 -0400

I don't believe grooming standards are outdated. I understand every culture is different and some cultures for instance a beard is a sign of maturity. The problem is that people don't see the purpose behind the decisions.

Anyone who has seen women fight knows why to keep your hair short. If you can get your fingers in their hair, you now have control of their movements. The same thing can be said about beards. A fistful of hair can bring a person's face down to meet my knee. Tattoos are a cultural thing. We are a global force and we deal with a lot of different cultures. We can't have possible peace talks be disrupted because LCpl Schmuckatelli has an offensive tattoo in a visible location.

Discipline, cohesion, and uniformity are all important and the grooming standards are a part of this. I think it'd be badass if we could all grow beards and get fully tattooed and look like hardcore warriors. But you have to look at it from a practical point of view. Yes we are warriors, but we must be just as equal in our long range tactics as we are in close combat tactics as we are in our diplomatic approach.

To give an enemy an advantage over us is to fail.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2016 9:37 AM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:37:14 -0400

So many well thought out responses! I agree wholeheartedly that 'Command discretion' while using common sense is not only the best answer for this question but perhaps a mantra to be used for most controversial, situation based questions. The unit commander of an operational unit should have the autonomy to modify a basic standard if they decide it will benefit overall mission success. On the flip side of that coin, I believe that the commander of troops that are not conducting operations has a duty to maintain the highest basic military standards in the interest of good order and discipline. During most military indoctrination training they shave your head, take away your civilian clothes, take away most contact with the outside world, make you talk differently, walk differently. Why? To make you into a part of that organization. When you graduate you have 2 names on your uniform: the one you were born with and the one you earned. Enforcing the basic military standards, helps maintain good order and discipline because if you hammer down on the little stuff people will think twice about breaking more important rules. More importantly though it reminds us that we are part of something greater than ourselves it reminds us of that other name that we earned.

Response by CPO James Mifflin made Sep 27 at 2016 9:44 AM

CPO James Mifflin — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:44:35 -0400

Grooming standards are fine. Sharp clean appearance. The SpecOps community has different needs... We worked inside local communities, often with there leadership... Beards were essential for respect and without that they would not pass on any information.... That's my take on this discussion.

Response by CPO James Mifflin made Sep 27 at 2016 9:48 AM

CPO James Mifflin — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 09:48:49 -0400

Conventional vs SpecOps... Two different communities... As SpecOps we needed relaxed standards while deployed. We often worked within the local clans. The clan leadership didn't trust a clean shave... That was a boy to them... They only spoke to men. Men have beards. That's my take on it.

Response by CSM William DeWolf made Sep 27 at 2016 10:26 AM

CSM William DeWolf — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 10:26:12 -0400

Realistically, there are more important things to consider when in the combat environment that stubble and hair!

Response by SSgt Kenneth Douglas made Sep 27 at 2016 10:41 AM

SSgt Kenneth Douglas — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 10:41:15 -0400

No, the military should not bend the rules to accommodate this dysfunctional culture.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Sep 27 at 2016 11:06 AM

PO2 Gerry Tandberg — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 11:06:05 -0400

I'd give those at the tip of the spear far more latitude in their appearance outside the wire. I'm not a tattoos guy, but it seems everyone; both civilian and military tattooing is very popular. I just attended my nephew's wedding. He had three tours of duty in Afghanistan, as did his best man and five of his groomsmen...all Sargent's (E5) and all extensively tattooed. They were all in their dress uniform and looked sharp with no tattoos showing. They were all clean shaven and hair cut hight n tight. I'm reasonably sure that outside the wire you'd never recognize them. But at the wedding they looked sharp and this Squid was really proud of them.

Response by Sgt Marbury Keys made Sep 27 at 2016 11:28 AM

Sgt Marbury Keys — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 11:28:00 -0400

Grooming standards should never be relaxed while stationed in CONUS or at
a home base!

Response by SGT James Murphy made Sep 27 at 2016 12:04 PM

SGT James Murphy — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 12:04:37 -0400

I can see by your picture your posting that beards in a muslim country may be one argument for relaxed. I disagree! If you are squared away and the whole UNIT is squared away it's a better Unit! Period.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2016 1:30 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 13:30:02 -0400

I do NOT think grooming standards need relaxing. I do not think presenting a clean-cut, we'll-groomed appearance is a bad thing. I have found, if you feel professional, you are more likely to act professional.
Where tattoos are concerned, I DO believe regs have gotten out of hand. I am not interested in a watered-down service where our war-fighters cannot get ink, but can look "shaggy" in uniform.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 27 at 2016 1:35 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 13:35:15 -0400

I am not in favor of changing the appearance and lowering grooming and uniform standards. These are still Military units and that means for one thing holding all to certain standards of appearance in uniform. They way You are viewed, favorably or unfavorably had a great deal to with a professional image. i found the same to be true in even Civilian Police Departments, the Dept I was on adhered to Military standards for uniforms and that coupled with a proper conduct and demeanor made our job easier and We were viewed as professional compared to Departments that didn't maintain that standard. In the long run it actually made the job easier and We felt better about ourselves as well. Except for some special operations functions that may need to blend into a non Military or non Police setting I see no advantage at all in the relaxing of standards on uniforms and appearance.

Response by TSgt Adrienne Westfelt made Sep 27 at 2016 1:53 PM

TSgt Adrienne Westfelt — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 13:53:07 -0400

The grooming standards aren't outdated or w/o purpose; I agree w/deployment situations that warrant different styles. Stateside or normal base ops or support personnel need to step up and stop pushing the limits like they are three year-olds. If your hair hits your ear, it's too long guys. If your hair can't fit inside your hat because it's too big/bunchy girls - guess what, time to fix it. Read the regulations and abide by them - I only hated being corrected for minor issues about my hair if the senior NCO saw a high ranking officer nearby! Fix the problem no matter who it is OR who is around: wrong is wrong.

Response by 1stSgt Troy Seals made Sep 27 at 2016 5:34 PM

1stSgt Troy Seals — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 17:34:24 -0400

COL, you and I know those soldiers pictured are not typical soldiers, Marines, or Navy personnel. Some of us old farts were in places for periods of time when it was difficult to look like a garrison troop. Khe Sanh, Quang Tri province, Hue during TET, just to name a few. We looked quite different than the folks at 1st MARDIV hq. As far as tattoo's, if you have to permanently ink your body to prove you are a badass, might wanna think again. What is not right is the PT standards for men and women. Same promotion system, same pay, same requirements.

Response by SFC Derrick Graves made Sep 27 at 2016 9:09 PM

SFC Derrick Graves — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 21:09:51 -0400

Based on my 20+ year of active service I would say grooming habits is an evolving entity within the military and has/will change as a by product of social changes in the civilian sector. These changes have been allowed to exist primarily as an incentive/morale booster for the 17-21 age group who are the target population for enlistment. While on active duty grooming policies are designed and modified to maintain good order and morale for the younger service members especially in regards to retention purposes. Senior leadership will continue to evaluate this aspect of military service now and into the future.

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Sep 27 at 2016 9:12 PM

SSG Wayne Wood — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 21:12:05 -0400

I think there's a time and place; I came from the era of starched fatigues and spit-shined boots in garrison - I never served in a unit that allowed slackness in either haircuts or things like sideburns and/or mustaches - this during the 70s when there was great pressure to relax standards.

I remember a time when the Dutch Army unionized and they allowed the guys to do pretty much anything appearance-wise; seeing some of our allies with long stringy hair hanging from their helmets pretty much convinced this 19 -year old troop the wisdom of our regulations.

Fact is, most of our appearance regs aren't just about appearance but hygiene and safety. Short hair discourages lice and other problems our doughboys encountered in the trenches of World War 1; by the same token I've tried using a protective mask with a beard - or even a day or two's growth of whiskers, it wouldn't seal. I do think common sense should play a role, particularly in a combat or field environment. I'll never forget the one time our battalion commander came to visit my howitzer section in Grenada. Our CSM made a comment about my chin whiskers. I showed him our last half-empty 5-gallon Jerry Can of water and explained we had brought this with us when we deployed three days earlier and didn't know when we would get any more. He nodded; I will say by that afternoon we got resupplied with clean water and I shaved.

On an earlier occasion I had just returned from a two week offpost field problem and was coming up from the motor pool on my way to lunch - and the barber shop. I passed this same CSM and we exchanged greetings. After lunch my First Sergeant called me aside and looked at me and said, "Ohy, you got a haircut."

I was kind of confused, "Yes, Top."

He explained to me the CSM passed me earlier and noticed I needed a haircut. I grinned sadly, "Well, Top, we've been in the field two weeks - I was on my way to get a haircut when we saw each other. If he'd said something then I would have explained..."

I never figured out why he didn't say something - I never hesitated to make on-the-spot corrections.

I may be old fashioned, but I believe the way we present(ed) ourselves reflect(s)(ed) on our branch. When I see guys in airports in duty uniforms I shudder. But I'm an old FOG so...

Here's a question from the E-5 promotion board back in the day:
Q: How often does a good soldier need a haircut?
A: A GOOD soldier never NEEDS a haircut.

Common sense and the mission should dictate. IMHO.

Response by MSgt Devon Saunders made Sep 27 at 2016 9:13 PM

MSgt Devon Saunders — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 21:13:12 -0400

Here's my 2 cents... I and many others have Pseudofolliculitis barbae (Bad razor bumps/ingrown hairs). And have to routinely get shaving waivers. In my case I cannot use a razor whatsoever and have to use clippers. I still get bumps and ingrown hairs because my facial hair is extremely ruff and curls back into my skin. Now, keep in mind I still have to keep it trimmed to a specific length ( no more than a 1/4 inch). For me that's a lot and I usually kept it closer somewhat of a shadow depending on how my hair acted that week. Point is this. I spent 21 years in the Air Force and had a waiver from BMT until retirement. And every base had different policies on the length of the waivers. One base might be a year another might be every 6 months!! And I still looked and acted professional with my facial hair. (For those who say you can't be professional acting ). I believe allowing neatly trimmed beards should be allowed for those that choose to or have to(medical reason) minus having to go see a technician or doctor every 6 months to a year. For a condition that isn't going to change. My hair isn't gonna suddenly become uncurly or wool like.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Sep 27 at 2016 11:05 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Tue, 27 Sep 2016 23:05:05 -0400

Some of us old farts, might have a slightly different viewpoint. Especially the seagoing types. In my day beards we acceptable in both the Navy and in my service the CG as long as they were neat and closely trimmed. Likewise, Tats were accepted as a rite of passage. Many got them to commemorate cruises, new ships, making rate, or just because they were drunk and stupid on liberty. We were no less professional for doing it, nor were we considered less professional by the public.

Some things are obviously wrong, sloppy and unkempt, unless that is needed to blend in, long hair or beards when working around rotating machinery or as part of a combat, marine security unit, etc. that might allow someone to grab you by it. That sort of thing, but otherwise, I don't have a big issue.

Response by SFC Cesar Valdez Jr made Sep 28 at 2016 11:56 AM

SFC Cesar Valdez Jr — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 11:56:04 -0400

Most of you addressed a combat scenario and as a Viet Nam and Gulf War veteran, i can tell you stories on each theater, but the bottom line is quite simple; rules have to be lax if you been outside base camp for an extended period of time. What really rattles my cage is when i am at a civilian airport and see our troops lounge in the waiting areas or hallways completely disregarding common sense and look like scum bags instead of wearing their respective uniform with pride. Yes, I am old school, "back in the day," one could not wear "fatigues" outside the post and you always traveled in your class A or B's. I know I will anger a bunch of folks, but BDU's should not be worn in public specially since they are not meant to be pressed. BTW, I have respectfully admonished both officers and enlisted if i felt that their uniform or their behavior was not proper and I will continue to do so until I die!!

Response by PO1 Scott Cottrell made Sep 28 at 2016 6:02 PM

PO1 Scott Cottrell — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 18:02:56 -0400

Well, from my time at NAB Coronado, some of the Team members were told to grow out their hair and beards, so they would not be ID'd as military personnel. And that was in the late 80's.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Sep 28 at 2016 6:29 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 18:29:04 -0400

I STILL THINK THAT THE MILTARY SHOULD REVAMP THE DRESS CODE AND GROMMING STANDARDS FOR BOTH MALE AND FEMALE IT HAS GOTTEN TO RELAXED IT SHOULD BE HARDER. SSG MARK FRANZEN US ARMY VETERAN

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2016 7:12 PM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 19:12:40 -0400

Bring the beards back and let me grow my dang mustache in a fancy manly fashion! ;)

Clean shaven faces keep the military looking professional. Arguably this is the only real reason for it. The "gas mask" argument is completely invalid. Not based on the fact that a beard breaks a seal, it does - it's minuscule, but you wouldn't want to take that chance. I say it is invalid because unless you are going to an area where such a threat is likely, you'd have time to shave. If you don't have two minutes to shave, you will probably get hit before you get a mask (at least from a Navy standpoint). Outside of those areas where such an event could take place, there's no argument outside of a professional look. The military looks more uniform and professional when clean shaven. We also look younger. However, beards have their advantages when applied with age. A well kept beard an on older higher ranking individual would, in my opinion, make him look more experienced. Beards command respect. I've seen great looking beards and really crappy ones. I've seen some who look better with breads and some who look better clean shaven. At the end of the day, it's all up to our top leadership. This really isn't a safety concern anymore - with very limited exception to certain places (I'm looking at you Syria).

Response by SSgt Jim Gilmore made Sep 28 at 2016 9:44 PM

SSgt Jim Gilmore — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 21:44:43 -0400

Grooming standards have been and always will be a matter of good order and discipline for the military. Like it or not it is also a health issue. That said, the military also has to be able to adapt to the situational surroundings - the ability to blend in with the environment on an as needed basis. There have and also will always be those who march to the beat of their own drum...like BG Robin Olds who while as a Colonel stationed in Thailand had a rather obvious, out of regs moustache.

Response by SSG Mark Franzen made Sep 28 at 2016 10:00 PM

SSG Mark Franzen — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 22:00:31 -0400

I think that grooming standards are way to relaxed it's nothing compared to when I was in.

Response by CPO Zack Lindsey made Sep 30 at 2016 8:45 AM

CPO Zack Lindsey — Fri, 30 Sep 2016 08:45:46 -0400

I seen a lot on hair and beards and that poor horse is about dead so I just would like to say something about tattoos one they are older than dirt and if they are not telling someone to to flake off I do not see what is wrong with them they do not stop someone from doing there job now if they are gang tats yea not good bad unless they where they where there before they came in than have to go by case by case what is the person like is he or she going to be a good military person or not if not we will not have to worry about there tattoo cause don't sign them up cause they will just not stand up for for what is right

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Dec 15 at 2016 5:13 AM

SFC Marcus Belt — Thu, 15 Dec 2016 05:13:00 -0500

Military grooming standards have been and should remain fluid. There were surprisingly few "high and tights" in the ETO during WWII, and they won anyway.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Dec 16 at 2016 12:37 PM

1SG Patrick Sims — Fri, 16 Dec 2016 12:37:13 -0500

Grooming standards are for all of us---If you think you're a privilege character and deserve preferential treatment ---Get out of the military and join the New York City Ballet.

Response by Sgt Marbury Keys made Dec 22 at 2016 1:21 PM

Sgt Marbury Keys — Thu, 22 Dec 2016 13:21:18 -0500

We should never relax the standards.

Response by PO1 Kevin Dougherty made Dec 29 at 2016 1:54 PM

PO1 Kevin Dougherty — Thu, 29 Dec 2016 13:54:50 -0500

Well, I come from a USCG tradition in a time when neatly groomed beards were not only allowed, but more or less expected. I do not have an issue with that. but in the end, it does depend on what and where you are and do. If it helps you to blend in and accomplish your job, fine. From what I understand, in some cultures, if you can't grow a beard you are regarded as less than a man, fine grow one. In my case, I spent a year 500 miles north of the Arctic Circle. A beard and long hair were just common sense, helping you to stay warm and protect your face in weather that at times could reach 70 or more below with 70+ knot winds. It is truely amazing how warm a beard can keep your face once it freezes over....

Response by Pvt Bruce Baker made Feb 9 at 2017 12:40 AM

Pvt Bruce Baker — Thu, 09 Feb 2017 00:40:24 -0500

No beards or long hair but tattoos ok

Response by Edward Belliveau made Mar 11 at 2017 5:05 PM

Edward Belliveau — Sat, 11 Mar 2017 17:05:21 -0500

No grooming is most important

Response by LCpl Jeff Ogg made Mar 11 at 2017 8:22 PM

LCpl Jeff Ogg — Sat, 11 Mar 2017 20:22:33 -0500

Grooming standards are intended to promote unity and teamwork. Get with it or get out. If I cannot trust you to shave your face I certainly cannot trust you to cover my six

Response by SPC David Fraidenburg made Mar 19 at 2017 10:51 PM

SPC David Fraidenburg — Sun, 19 Mar 2017 22:51:22 -0400

Depends on duty assignment and specifics of mission.

Response by LCpl Johnny Carroll made Mar 21 at 2017 8:45 PM

LCpl Johnny Carroll — Tue, 21 Mar 2017 20:45:32 -0400

only in the navy and army can you look like a scum bucket

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 8 at 2017 8:16 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Jul 2017 08:16:15 -0400

beards, tattoos and long hair are not an issue, I believe it's just the way in which some people view the military and what their customs are! not having a beard or having one does not win wars.