Are marksmanship badges just like diamonds and are forever?

2015-02-23T16:25:23-05:00

I have seen a discussion about the wear of marksmanship badges. I might have a different perspective of this. Regulation states:

AR 600-8-22

8–47. U.S. Army Basic Marksmanship Qualification Badges a. A basic marksmanship qualification badge is awarded to indicate the degree in which an individual, military or civilian, has qualified in a prescribed record course and an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified.

DA Pam 350-38
11-c. AC table of distribution and allowances (TDA) units with personnel assigned individual weapons will qualify semi-annually.

My take on this is if you are required to qualify every six months and have not you are not longer qualified with that weapon system. Hence, you can't deploy our do many other things with that. If you let this time lapse you are past your required time. So you would no longer be qualified. In 8-47 it states "to denote each weapon with which he or she is qualified." As I stated if I qualified with a M9 in Basic Training over 14 years ago, which I did, I am no longer qualified since I have never refired M9. But if so would you still wear it since that was reflecting your last qualification? Should it be your current, or most recent active qualification?

Do marksmanship badges last forever? Shouldn't we all be wearing our grenade qualification badge from when we qualified in basic training? Keep in mind that your qual will drop off your record after 2 years.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Feb 23 at 2015 4:40 PM

2015-02-23T16:40:04-05:00

1LT Rosa,
Your question and your discussion post imply two different things. I think the answer to your question (are marksmanship badges permanent or must be renewed) is:
- Your reading of the regulations is correct. Marksmanship badges must be consistently re earned.
- This makes marksmanship badges different from tabs such as Ranger and Sapper which are permanent but can be revoked by competent authority if the wearer commits illegal or unethical acts.
- This makes marksmanship badges similar to the APFT badge which must be re earned semiannually.
- I believe that badges such as Air Assault and senior/master parachutist are also permanent but can be revoked in the bearer commits illegal or unethical acts. Also, in the cases of these badges, there is a difference between being qualified (passing the course/meeting the requirements) and being current (having met the requirements recently within a specified duration of time).

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 23 at 2015 4:49 PM

2015-02-23T16:49:38-05:00

For the sister service side, the AF Marksmanship Ribbon is permanent once awarded.

Response by GySgt Wayne A. Ekblad made Feb 23 at 2015 4:55 PM

2015-02-23T16:55:02-05:00

Marines are required to requalify . . .

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 4:55 PM

2015-02-23T16:55:19-05:00

My DD214 still shows Expert in Rifle and Pistol and Sharpshooter with Grenade. Until I go back to the range and my qualification changes, that's what I would wear if I ever had to put my uniform back together again. I believe that makes them pretty much permanent.

Response by SGT James Elphick made Feb 23 at 2015 5:08 PM

2015-02-23T17:08:06-05:00

In the 82nd they just told me to throw on an expert rifle for my dress uniform. I eventually qualified expert about 2 years later as part of the EIB but none of it is documented on my DD214.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Feb 23 at 2015 7:21 PM

2015-02-23T19:21:08-05:00

Well, you're an officer now, so you don't wear your marksmanship badges.... ;o)

From my understanding weapon qual badges, you only wear it as long as you're qualified for the weapon. The badge you also wear changes with your score. IIRC only driver badges are permanent.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2015 7:33 PM

2015-02-23T19:33:50-05:00

CPT Private RallyPoint Member: Wait... you should have expert in anything you're required to fire... it's really simple for officers... just get your Skillcraft pen out and start punching holes... ;)

On a more serious note: The regulation says semi-annually. I believe there is a regulation which states if you are unable to qualify due to not being able to get to a range (due to mission, deployment, whatever), you may wear your last marksmanship badge up to one year after qualification. I am not positive as to what regulation it was (perhaps 670-1)...

Most commands, from what I've seen, tend to ignore your quals until it's time to go in front of a promotion board, or perepare your OER/NCOER - where they'll look at your actual last qualification.

Personally, barring extreme circumstances, there's not much reason you can't get qualified, even while deployed (I've done it every deployment).

It's also not that difficult to find out what units are doing qualifications on the weapons you want to qualify on, and arranging something with them in most cases.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 23 at 2015 11:49 PM

2015-02-23T23:49:28-05:00

Okay, so this is kind of off topic, but I have a question for all of you. The last time I went to the range, I grabbed on the coat tails of another unit and shot a 37. I was kind of pissed, because I didn't get another chance to fire. Understood, but I got off track already. Anyway, I know I shot a 37 because the unit gave me my target and I counted the holes in the black. I take it back to my unit and give it to my 1SG (per her instructions). About a week or so later, I noticed my ERB said 35 (what I shot last qual). I called my NCOIC and inquired...to make a long story short, my 1SG saw my target, decided it was incorrect and 're-graded' it giving me a 35. She did not keep my target. What, if anything, can I do?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 12:13 AM

2015-02-24T00:13:32-05:00

I read it as you do Sir, the only difference would be when working in TRADOC. Although I managed to qualify while working in TRADOC as well.

I was however recently schooled that I was incorrect for wearing the Rifle BAR when I qualified with an M4 which is a Carbine. Proves that anyone can be wrong. :)

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 24 at 2015 3:49 AM

2015-02-24T03:49:03-05:00

Get more badges and you won't have to worry about wearing the marksmanship badge..Bahahahaha!

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Feb 24 at 2015 8:37 AM

2015-02-24T08:37:21-05:00

They're also a girl's best friend.

Response by SGT Bryon Sergent made Feb 24 at 2015 11:50 AM

2015-02-24T11:50:08-05:00

The only way you can wear one of the three badges is to be current in your qualification. You can't wear something that you have not qual'd on. I haven't qual with a 50 cal in 4 yrs. Can I wear it, NO! I Qual'd expert with my M-9 and Sharpshooter with my M-4. That's all I qual'd on so that is all I can wear! like you said you Qual every 6 to 12 months. They go by you last Qual. If the unit has deployed and not been to the range since you left and you are not going back to the unit till after your 90 day yellow ribbon. Active isn't going to give you the money or rounds! So there for you wait til you go next. IF it is over two years no you can't wear it. I I retire and can wear my Uniform then that is showing what I got out with and is a different story!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 25 at 2015 10:31 AM

2015-02-25T10:31:35-05:00

Question: By regulation, don't SMs need to requal with those weapons systems in order to keep wearing those badges? Or can they qual once and then just wear it forever? According to regs...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2015 12:11 PM

2015-03-04T12:11:06-05:00

As I understand it will be worn until next qualifications. The grenade badge is dropped after two years. If you are in a TDA unit that owns no weapons then it will stay on the uniform until you qual again. As it was explained to me by a CW4 that was also the unit SSA it is a reflection of your last qualification

Response by Alan K. made Jul 10 at 2016 8:56 AM

2016-07-10T08:56:35-04:00

By the book your right....They go in the case...! Unless you re-qualify on it.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 10 at 2016 7:16 PM

2016-07-10T19:16:27-04:00

Eric, see below:
AR 600-8-22
1-31 c.11 - "An award for previous marksmanship weapons qualification is revoked automatically whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification. In the event a badge is authorized for firing a limited or sub-caliber course, it is automatically revoked if a record service course is subsequently fired. If the bar, which is revoked automatically, is the only one authorized to be worn on the respective basic qualification badge, the award of the badge likewise is revoked automatically. An award once revoked will not be reinstated."

8-54 d. - "Permanent Orders are not required for award of the Marksmanship badges. Approval of marksmanship badges may be announced via memorandum, letter, roster, or other locally devised form."

Combined with the other regulatory guidance you identified, my read is:

1. Qualify with weapon, awarded badge.
2. Required to qualify again on a variable basis (semi-annually, annually, every three years depending on who you are).
3. New qualification either renews, changes, or revokes the awarded bar [badge].

By the published regulations, if you stop qualifying with that weapon for whatever reason, the last badge awarded would still be appropriate for wear, even 14 years later. As you mentioned, one really can't be considered qualified past two years. I think the regulation should be rewritten to reflect that.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Jul 18 at 2016 2:02 PM

2016-07-18T14:02:26-04:00

Personally I think if you have earned an Expert Infantry Badge (EIB), you should have the right to wear the expert badge as long you are in service. That's just me.

Response by SFC Don Ward made Aug 1 at 2016 10:47 PM

2016-08-01T22:47:12-04:00

Must be a 2Lt masquerading as a seasoned officer.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Aug 2 at 2016 3:41 PM

2016-08-02T15:41:14-04:00

Cause we are proud of our accomplishments. In the Infantry we had to qualify every year (That was many decades ago, just glad they don't require you to retrain for Drivers Badge :-)

Response by SGT Edward Thomas made May 28 at 2017 5:28 PM

2017-05-28T17:28:25-04:00

I did a records check a few years ago thinking they'd (st Louis) just send me a listing. They didn't. They sent every medal, ribbon, appurtenances and badges. Yes it included expert rifle and grenade bars.

Response by CW5 Jack Cardwell made Oct 9 at 2017 3:19 PM

2017-10-09T15:19:13-04:00

Always an exception. The Excellent in Competion badge is a permanent award. Orders are cut for this award. Can be awarded for rifle or pistol and takes precedent over qualification awards. Covered by AR 350-66.

Response by CW3 Harvey K. made Feb 8 at 2018 3:40 PM

2018-02-08T15:40:20-05:00

There is a seemingly minor misquotation at work here, with considerable impact on the meaning of the reg.
You quoted the reg at 8–47 as "an appropriate bar is furnished to denote each weapon with which he or she qualified". You later referenced 8-47 as stating "to denote each weapon with which he or she is qualified."
Assuming your original quote of the reg at 8-47 is accurate, it refers to an historical, documented fact -- the individual is awarded a bar for a "weapon with which he or she qualified". In other words, they have indeed both fired the course, and qualified at some skill level meriting an award.
Your later reference to 8-47 changes that. The change to "is qualified" connotes currency in the skill level. That was not present in the original text of the reg at 8-47 --- only the fact of having fired the course and having qualified at some undetermined time in the past is stated as pertinent.
It appears to me that a strict reading of the reg would imply that whatever qualification, with whatever weapon, remains in effect, unless and until the individual again fires that weapon for qualification.
Of course, it seems foolish to an old Marine like me to see "appropriate bars" for expert qualification for such weapons as e.g. "hand grenade". I begin to wonder if there is a V-ring in the hand grenade target. But if the Army issues that bar for that weapon, it looks like it remains in effect until a re-qualification takes place.
I recall that I fired a 224 in boot camp with the M-1, and only made sharpshooter. My reserve unit could not schedule a re-qualification firing, so my unit spent a half-day firing a "familiarization course" instead.
Should I have removed my sharpshooter badge, because it was a little over 2 years before I could re-qualify (as an expert rifleman)?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 4:28 PM

2018-02-08T16:28:51-05:00

Good point Sir. When I trained with the USMC III SOTG out of Okinawa for their Combat Handgun course. I was told by the instructor that the men assigned to that unit had to qualify everyday with what they were assigned to use or, they were removed from the unit.
With that said, they were very serious about their weapons, that unit had to respond to any crisis in the Pacific and Asian areas. I guess the USMC III SOTG Unit was kind of like the Army Delta force today.
One thing for sure, their shooters were top of the line, and very proficient with their weapons.
Thirty six snipers that can engage 36 targets all at the same time, with precision results, one shot one kill.
Being active with a SWAT team in my police department, re-qualifying with your assigned weapon was, and is, very important. In my opinion, still wearing your basic training expert pin, yes it's a conversational piece for what you were then, but your life counts on how well you shoot today.

"Your weapon is only as good as it's Shooter." Salute, and be careful out there!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 8 at 2018 4:48 PM

2018-02-08T16:48:54-05:00

The regulation states that marksmanship badges are revoked "whenever an individual, upon completion of firing a record course for which the previous award was made, has not attained the same qualification". That's the only cause listed for revocation of the badge. It does not say anything about expiration, time lapses or any other cause.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 8 at 2018 5:09 PM

2018-02-08T17:09:07-05:00

They're temporary, if you shoot expert with an M4, you wear Expert - Carbine. 366 days later you shoot Marksman with an M16, you take off the Expert - Carbine and put on Marksman - Rifle, 2 days later you actually go to a grenade range and do the grenade assault course as a Sharpshooter, you add that as Sharpshooter - Grenade, to the right of your Marksman - Rifle.
If you go to a qualifying competition and get the badge - you will be permanently awarded the Distinguished Badge for that weapon system.

Response by SPC Gary Welch made Jul 14 at 2018 1:43 AM

2018-07-14T01:43:49-04:00

If you don't watch it expert will come back to bite you in the ass. We went to EIB one time they told us we could use our last expert qualification on our personal weapon for EIB mine was the m-60 which was fine till I realized I had to carry it on the timed road March I could have qualified expert with the m16a2 buy no had to be a badass

Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Jul 14 at 2018 7:29 AM

2018-07-14T07:29:32-04:00

No they do change each time you qualify, thankfully mine all stayed the same, looks like the way they're arranged at the top. Mine goes expert- rifle, sharpshooter -pistol, marksman- grenade.

Response by Sgt Michael Clifford made Jul 19 at 2019 7:59 AM

2019-07-19T07:59:51-04:00

In the Marine Corps you must qualify every year or have an explanation as to why.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 26 at 2020 11:24 PM

2020-01-26T23:24:55-05:00

The one and only clasp I have heard of that was permanent, was grenade. I do not know if that is truth or not. I earned mine in basic, and never threw again. So, I really can not say. But, what I do know is, that I did swap badges between Expert and sharpshooter many times while I was in the Army. Although, I do carry the expert rifle ribbon from Air Force Basic and that was back in 1984.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made May 22 at 2022 2:33 PM

2022-05-22T14:33:45-04:00

I think that while you are on active duty you are required to requalify semi-annually,so you should wear the badge of your most recent qualification. So skill do deteriorate if not kept up. You may have qualified Expert in BCT with a Drill Sgt standing over you telling you what to do. Then ten years later you can't hit the broad side of a barn. I have served as a range safety for units where a senior SP4 didn't know how to insert a magazine in a weapon.

Response by CW3 Chuck Huddleston made Jan 10 at 2023 5:52 PM

2023-01-10T17:52:51-05:00

Wear it, you earned it!!!