Are Naval Officers Sailors?

CMDCM Gene Treants — Sun, 01 Dec 2013 22:57:10 -0500

With the fresh interest in this question, i do need to point out that it was asked over a year ago originality. At that time there were some Officers who were upset that there were being asked to recite "The Sailors Creed" while in the training pipeline. This was a requirement by CNET, RADM Rondeau.

The Sailor's Creed

I am a United States Sailor. I will
support and defend the Constitution of the United States
of America and I will obey the orders of
those appointed over me. I represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those
who have gone before me to defend freedom and democracy around the world. I
proudly serve my country's Navy combat team with Honor, Courage, and
Commitment. I am committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

Response by CH (CPT) Heather Davis made Dec 2 at 2013 12:54 AM

CH (CPT) Heather Davis — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 00:54:48 -0500

Master Chief; respectfully we are all Soldiers first in the Army. I am out of my lane to comment but from my understanding the Navy was derived from the British. That being said their is a distinct class system between the Officers and the Enlisted. The Officer's have their mess and the Enlisted eat in the galley. Unlike the other services, there's a bright line dividing officers and enlisted.
Officers eat separately and wear different uniforms. Their living areas — "O
Country," as it's known — are often off-limits to enlisted. For ages, they've
called themselves naval officers, a distinction in keeping with the hierarchical
order aboard ship. The person who swabbed the decks was a sailor, a term
ill-suited to the ship's commander. By contrast, the term "sailor" was reserved
for enlisted men and women.

Response by CMC Robert Young made Dec 2 at 2013 6:36 AM

CMC Robert Young — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 06:36:29 -0500

Master Chief, I have to agree with CPT Davis' comments regarding how our situation came to be as it is. The Coast Guard makes the same organizational distinction as our heritage so closely parallels that of the US Navy. That said the Army and Air Force have similar cultural tendencies so we are not out of step with or sister services. My own observation is the US Marines got it right; every marine is a marine regardless of pay grade. This point was driven home several years ago while watching an interview with Marine Corps Commandant of the time. The initial question asked solicited some biographical information to which the general answered, "I am marine rifleman fortunate enough to currently be assigned as the commandant." It was clear that there was no distinction between officers and enlisted members with regard to their affiliation to the Marine Corps.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Dec 2 at 2013 8:17 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 08:17:34 -0500

I have thought about your question for a while now, and I have been considering if it is different in the Marines, and as far as I know, which is from the enlisted side, in the Corps, we are all Riflemen first, no matter what our job. That is drummed into us from day one, that no matter how we serve, we always have two MOS's.

That said, I served with some incredibly good officers, who made a point to be an integral part of their units. They PT'd with us, often ate with us, and not a few times, backed us up when necessary. I had the honor of knowing one Captain, who, upon knowing one of his troops had a terminal spouse, quietly worked thru others, to pay electric bills, buy groceries and find care for his children so that the Sergeant could spend those precious hours with his wife.

I have seen, in the Air Wing, how many officers made a point of getting to know the people who kept their aircraft flying. It may have been a sense of personal safety that pushed this view, but those squadrons were often very tight, even with the divide between officers and enlisted.

My point is, in the Corps, there is also a large divide between the ranks, but we always understood, that this was in some way necessary because of our first job in the Corps, those officers and upper enlisted, demands that we perform our job without thought to who might or might not survive... or show favoritisim in any situation. No Marine ever calls another by their first name, and quite frankly, we are shocked when we hear others of various ranks, do so. I am not sure if that makes sense in reference to your question, but that is the way I saw it.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 12:03 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 12:03:57 -0500

In the Seabee, community there was a bit of a discussion on whether or not the Officers were Seabees or just CEC Officers (just by the enlisted side.) But I have to say this. I am a Naval Officer. I am also a Sailor because I am supposed to the example for those I leader. I am a CEC Officer, but I am also a Seabee not only because I wear the patch but because I get down in the dirt with my Seabees.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Dec 2 at 2013 4:31 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 16:31:10 -0500

Are we perhaps making this more complicated than it is? Are you in the Navy ? Congrats, you're a Sailor.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 2 at 2013 10:01 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Dec 2013 22:01:23 -0500

Or should be asking are sailors Officers?

(Que the music)

Response by LtCol Dann Chesnut made Dec 3 at 2013 11:05 AM

LtCol Dann Chesnut — Tue, 03 Dec 2013 11:05:39 -0500

A Marine is a Marine no matter what the rank. Officers in the Marine Corps are Marines. As a Marine enlisted man, and as an officer, at no time was I in the Navy, albeit the USMC is identified as in the Department of the Navy.

Response by CPT Keith Steinhurst made Dec 10 at 2013 11:42 AM

CPT Keith Steinhurst — Tue, 10 Dec 2013 11:42:35 -0500

In my opinion, all Marines are in the Navy, but not all sailors are in the Marine Corps! Semper Fidelis Chief!

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Mar 19 at 2014 7:10 AM

CPT Richard Riley — Wed, 19 Mar 2014 07:10:03 -0400

As a son-in-law to a former PO3 Newmister (RIP), if your service is Navy - your Navy & with that you ARE a sailor ... goes with the territory. Just as all Army are soldiers, all Air Force are airmen, and all Marines are - well - Marines. To get all caught up in minutia over what to call whom is somewhat silly (or from another perspective petty) but at the end of the day you are what your service holds. It's really kind of simple.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 11:01 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2014 11:01:37 -0400

MCPO Treants,

Wow, I am shocked that some Naval Officers would not consider themselves Sailors. I am a Soldier and my fellow officers would tell anyone who says otherwise that they are nuts. Tell a Marine Officer that he is not a Marine and you may get punched.

Personally, I think attitudes like those displayed by the "offended" Navy Officers are a major contributer to the 'us versus them' attitude between some groups of enlisted and officers; it denotes a lack of respect on the part of the officer for the very people that they are charged to lead and care for.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 4:40 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2014 16:40:58 -0400

I am an Army Officer in the current rank of Chief Warrant Officer Two. If someone asks me what I do on the weekends, I will say "I am a Soldier in the Army Reserve."

Response by LT Ken Anderson made Apr 2 at 2014 3:17 PM

LT Ken Anderson — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 15:17:14 -0400

Are Army Officers soldiers??

Response by SSgt David Thompson made Apr 2 at 2014 4:38 PM

SSgt David Thompson — Wed, 02 Apr 2014 16:38:13 -0400

Yes, Naval Officers are "sailors". As others have said, the terms "soldier", "sailor", "airman", and "marine" are respective of service and not rank/grade. As a MCPO, I'm sure you've "corrected" many "naval officers" to this fact. Unless things have drastically changed since I was in. I have seen many Sergeants Major correcting Captains and below. It certainly reminds those officers that it is they who serve their country. And not the enlisted who serve them. I'll admit though, that I've also seen many "elitist" officers, and many (if not most) have been academy grads.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Apr 3 at 2014 2:23 PM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 14:23:30 -0400

All members of the Air Force, regardless of rank, are Airmen!

The Airman's Creed[1]

I am an American Airman.I am a Warrior.I have answered my Nation’s call.I am an American Airman.My mission is to Fly, Fight, and Win.I am faithful to a Proud Heritage,A Tradition of Honor,And a Legacy of Valor.I am an American Airman.Guardian of Freedom and Justice,My Nation’s Sword and Shield,Its Sentry and Avenger.I defend my Country with my Life.I am an American Airman.Wingman, Leader, Warrior.I will never leave an Airman behind,I will never falter,And I will not fail.

Airman - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

An airman is a member of the air component of a nation's armed service. In the United States Air Force, it can also refer to a specific enlisted rank. More informally, it can refer to any member of an...

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 3 at 2014 8:00 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 Apr 2014 20:00:09 -0400

Admiral Burke, an officer who served 3 times as Chief of Naval Operations said it himself.  If you've ever seen his headstone, at the Naval Academy - it has one word: Sailor.  If it's good enough for a naval warrior - it should be good enough for the rest.

Response by 1stSgt Don Brazeal made Apr 25 at 2014 7:32 PM

1stSgt Don Brazeal — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 19:32:41 -0400

Marines are Marines, officer or Enlisted. We Marines are all cut from the same bolt.

Response by TSgt Scott Hurley made Apr 25 at 2014 9:04 PM

TSgt Scott Hurley — Fri, 25 Apr 2014 21:04:55 -0400

Here is a joke I heard some years ago:

An individual sees the Joint chiefs and walks up to them. He first approaches the Chief of Staff Army. Hi Soldier he says. The CSA looks at him and says I am not a soldier I am a General. Taken aback the individual says ok and walks on. He next approachs the CSAF. He says "Hi Airman". The CSAF looks at him and says "I am not an Airman, I'm a General!" Again the individual is taken aback and walks on. He approaches the Chief of Naval Operations. "Hi Sailor." The CNO looks at him and says "I am not a Sailor, I'm an Admiral." The again is taken aback and walks on. He spies the Commandant of the Marines. Going up to him and expecting the same response he says "Hi, Marine." The Commandant looks at him and says "Your Right, I am a Marine."

Now Moral of the story is, regardless of branch, and whether your an officer or enlisted. You are either a Soldier, Airman, Sailor, or Marine. So I think everyone should realize that as well as the fact that WE as a whole are all United States Service Members regardless of RANK.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2014 4:15 PM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 16:15:52 -0400

Without any question yes. Officers are Sailors. For any support of that assertion I point to the memorial to Arleigh Burke in the Admiral Arleigh Burke Memorial. On the plate of the memorial below his picture is the word, "Sailor."

Response by MAJ David Todd made Jul 12 at 2014 10:48 PM

MAJ David Todd — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 22:48:19 -0400

As an Army officer, I considered myself a soldier. Still do, even if retired.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2014 11:04 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Jul 2014 23:04:07 -0400

They sure as hell are SAILORS, regardless of what some of the mis-informed "O's" think. I have corrected more than one Officer who failed to stand at attention and recite the Sailors Creed with the rest of us. Regardless of the rank, whether Officer or Enlisted, we are all Sailors.

Admiral Arleigh Burke's grave reads as follows because he got it,

ADMIRAL
ARLEIGH A. BURKE
SAILOR
UNITED STATES NAVY

ROBERTA G. BURKE
SAILORS WIFE

Response by CAPT Peter Ross made Jul 13 at 2014 12:01 PM

CAPT Peter Ross — Sun, 13 Jul 2014 12:01:28 -0400

Samuel B. Roberts. Questions?

Response by PO1 Sharon Walters made Jul 15 at 2014 12:25 PM

PO1 Sharon Walters — Tue, 15 Jul 2014 12:25:23 -0400

If you are a member of the US Navy you are a sailor regardless of your rank. Yes, as some of the other comments state, there are glaring lines between the different ranks but there is a purpose for those lines to maintain order. However, some people, once they cross those lines (advancing) 1. forget where they came from 2. think they are better than those on the other side of the line.
If an officer considers it an insult to be called a sailor then they shouldn't have joined the Navy.

As an officer in the Navy, how does he/she know what needs to be done and how it needs to be done, to be able to direct and lead those sailors that answer to him/her, without the knowledge of being a sailor if he/she is NOT a sailor?
- Are the officers born with this knowledge? (no)
- Did they get all this knowledge in school? (no - not even in Annapolis or OCS. Most of the nitty-gritty, day-to-day stuff is learned on the job, as situations occur, not necessarily out of a book)
- Did this knowledge come with their officer uniforms and collar devices? (no - even tho a big chunk of them think they know everything as soon as they put their bars on)
-- If they're not born with it and they didn't get it in their schooling & it wasn't issued with their uniforms then where does the necessary knowledge for fulfilling their requirements & responsibilities of being an officer come from? This knowledge comes from learning the job. And I hate to burst a lot of "O-country" bubbles, but learning the day-to-day operations of running a ship and being at sea (even if you aren't the one actually doing all the work) is by definition being a Sailor.
* - YourDictionary.com - The definition of a sailor is a person who lives, works or travels by sea. EX - a person serving in the navy.
* - Websters new world college dictionary -
1. a person who makes a living by sailing; mariner; seaman
2. (a) an enlisted man in the navy.
(b) any person in the navy
3. a person sailing on a vessel
4. a straw hat with a low, flat crown and flat brim
* - American Heritage Dictionary -
1. one who serves in a navy or works on a ship
2. one who travels by water
3. a low-crowned straw hat with a flat top and flat brim
* - Wiktionary - one who follows the business of navigating ships or other vessels; one who understands the practical management of ships; one of the crew of a vessel; a mariner; a common seaman.

Now, of the 14 examples above from 4 different sources, only 1 of them specifically mentions rank. And from ALL 4 sources, the first/primary definition of sailor is some version of "someone that works on a ship or at sea". You can't be an officer in the Navy sitting on dry land now can you? Guess that makes them sailors whether they like it or not and if it's such a disgraceful burden to be called a Sailor then they should just get out and let those that are proud to wear the label step up and take their place.

On a related sidenote - there ARE some officers that are NOT sailors and for safety sake should get out asap - I once had to explain to one of my ships junior officers the cardinal points of the compass and how I knew, without looking it up somewhere, that 90 degrees was due east & 270 degrees was due west (This officer was one of those people that needed to see something in black and white before they would believe it and being an Electronics Technician, I am a "communicator" not a "navigator" therefore my knowledge in this situation was not reliable even tho "communicators" also rely on "navigation" type information), .....ummmm....6th grade science class?? The REAL scary part of this....this officers duty station was bridge officer......responsible for decisions made driving the ship.....at night !!!!

Response by CDR Thomas Gatliffe made Jul 27 at 2014 10:52 PM

CDR Thomas Gatliffe — Sun, 27 Jul 2014 22:52:48 -0400

I consider myself a genuine sailor in the most basic sense. I was fortunate enough to actually "sail" in a 45-70' sail-powered craft for several hundred miles across the western Atlantic, three different times. At 72 I can still tie a bowline one-handed, steer a course by the stars, and gauge the prevailing wind and seas in my sleep. That said, I also always tried to be at least as proficient in basic skills as those in my division, department, or command throughout my career. That often meant getting down and swinging on a wrench when the chief or senior petty officer urgently needed an extra hand dealing with an engine room casualty, flaking down an errant bitter end and bight of line during a midnight UNREP, reading the troubleshooting steps aloud for my Chief RM or ET while they tried to get gear back on line, or generally whatever was needed to support the mission. Above all, I tried to LISTEN to and learn from those who had already been down the road before trying to tell them how to get there. Sometimes my chiefs didn't completely agree with some aspects but they always knew that I understood their concerns before I made my decisions and I tried to confidently leave the details up to them. There is one inescapable fact about sea duty: "We are all in the same boat, literally, and we can ultimately sink or swim individually or steam together as a team."

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Aug 2 at 2014 12:23 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 02 Aug 2014 12:23:57 -0400

Sailor first and foremost. Rank is important and gets my due respect but you wear the Uniform of the USN or USCG you are a Sailor. Doesn't mean the Graduates of the Knife and Fork school won't take some good natured ribbing from me though. Haze Gray and Underway!

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 2:11 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 14:11:27 -0400

Sailor definitely.

v/r GT

Response by PO3 Michael Pierotti made Apr 23 at 2015 3:14 PM

PO3 Michael Pierotti — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:14:59 -0400

There were many officers I would consider to be great men / women and sailors I met during my service. They "earned" the respect of the enlisted like myself. Those I proudly saluted and served with.

I also had the unfortunate experience of meeting many officers who I had difficulty saluting and only did so because I didn't want to have to explain to my skipper why I didn't salute them. Those officers I would not call sailors. Just glorified collage graduates with officers school under their belts.

Response by PO1 Donald Hammond made Apr 23 at 2015 3:15 PM

PO1 Donald Hammond — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:15:31 -0400

This is like ... DUH! Yes. They are.

Response by CPO William Zaczek made Apr 23 at 2015 3:16 PM

CPO William Zaczek — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:16:33 -0400

Nice response "Birmingham, AL".

Response by SGT Richard H. made Apr 23 at 2015 3:23 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:23:52 -0400

I have two brothers in law (they are brothers) who are retired Navy officers...one a Captain, the other a LCDR. They call each other "Sailor". That's good enough for me.

Response by PO3 William O'Rourke made Apr 23 at 2015 3:25 PM

PO3 William O'Rourke — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:25:44 -0400

Previously it was written, "I represent the the fighting spirit of the Navy Bluejackets who have gone before me..." Officers did not wear bluejackets.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 3:28 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:28:08 -0400

Plain and simple. Army officers are soldiers. Naval officers are sailors. Marine officers are Marines. I am a retired Army officer. I am proud of the title Soldier.

Response by PO2 Mark Zawadzki made Apr 23 at 2015 3:37 PM

PO2 Mark Zawadzki — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:37:06 -0400

Yes, of course, by the very definition of sailor. Why do you ask this?

Response by SCPO Reid Flade made Apr 23 at 2015 3:38 PM

SCPO Reid Flade — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:38:29 -0400

As a 26 year retired SCPO, this is one of the dumbest questions I've seen. Of course they are sailors. Why, because they are part of the NAVY. To say otherwise, you would then have to say any job that doesn't actively have a sea billet, would have to be classed as something else. Tell me what's the difference between a doctor, or dentist assigned to a carrier and one stationed ashore. Just the place they park their car. Pick a Captain and a Chief Petty Officer, what's the difference? The Chief has been promoted one more time than the Captain. OK, the Captain has more seniority and probably is a better ship handler, but if the Chiefs he had as he was gaining his experience were worth their salt, they were training him. That's what used to be expected. I don't know if that's taken seriously anymore. What it boils down to, we are all sailors. Different jobs, different responsibilities, but all of the same cut of sail. Maybe that's been forgotten. Maybe it needs to remembered. Hooya!

Response by PO3 Kevin Murray made Apr 23 at 2015 3:39 PM

PO3 Kevin Murray — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:39:51 -0400

In legal definition only, every person who joins the Navy is Sailor. However few officers in my experience try to ingratiate themselves with their crew, or only as much as they have to. They eat separately, live and work separately and even have completely separate uniforms as opposed to just separate insignia.... You can't even WALK through most "O-country" if you're enlisted. I always felt looked down upon by many Naval officers regardless of my level of self-worth, which I ASSURE you is high! My CHENG was usually awesome, my M.P.A. on the other hand - I can count on 2 Habs how many times he was in the machinery space in 3 years! Smh

Response by PO2 Kevin Smith made Apr 23 at 2015 3:41 PM

PO2 Kevin Smith — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:41:20 -0400

Jar heads, Coasties, Fly Boys (and Gals), Grunts, Ground Pounders, and Whack - a - Moles... Shut up, your answers don't matter! And, who was asking you anyway!? If you are / were in the Navy... you are a Sailor!

And for you Officers who responded - you are elitist; But, none - the - less... Sailors!

I am a United States Sailor!

"Squidley"

Response by PO2 Mark Zawadzki made Apr 23 at 2015 3:43 PM

PO2 Mark Zawadzki — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:43:30 -0400

Bluejackets are enlisted, however the creed does not define sailors, only a subset.
If I were to say that beagles are dogs, does that mean that chihuahuas are not dogs?

Response by LCDR Karl Stout made Apr 23 at 2015 3:50 PM

LCDR Karl Stout — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:50:03 -0400

One can call themselves a sailor once they have been at sea. However, it is more proper for a navy guy to say informally "I am a sailor" than a "soldier." We are not soldiers. So we must be sailors in the context of soldiers sailors marines.

I do not call myself a sailor. One afternoon at sea does not a sailor make. Any officer of a ship is a sailor as sure as Popeye is!

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 3:53 PM

SN Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:53:42 -0400

There's no question. Say what you want about the divide between officers and enlisted, but a sailor is a sailor. Regardless of rank and rate. There is no grey area there.

Response by SFC Trevor Sauders made Apr 23 at 2015 3:57 PM

SFC Trevor Sauders — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 15:57:01 -0400

No it's an enlisted term.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Apr 23 at 2015 4:02 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:02:07 -0400

Marine Officers are Marines first, and proud to be so.

Response by LT Michael Watson made Apr 23 at 2015 4:14 PM

LT Michael Watson — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:14:01 -0400

As a former Naval Officer, I consider myself as a Sailor. I treated my men and women with respect regardless of their rank as I could, and did, learn much from each of them. I made certain my team was taken care of before I took care of myself, maybe because my father and uncles were all prior enlisted and that is what they taught me. Yes, there is/was a line, but everyone is there and we all counted on each other to do their job to complete the mission and to come home.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Apr 23 at 2015 4:47 PM

PO1 Todd B. — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:47:06 -0400

It depends on the man or woman wearing that uniform and the respect they have earned...

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 4:48 PM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:48:39 -0400

Yes.

Response by LCDR Mike Roshaven made Apr 23 at 2015 4:50 PM

LCDR Mike Roshaven — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:50:35 -0400

Wow, great question Master Chief. As an officer with no enlisted time, my first reaction would be to say that I don't rate that term, or title. It's not from some high horse that I say this, but I did not go through boot camp. Boorda went through boot camp, so I see his thought on everyone calling themselves a Sailor who served in the Navy. I just don't think I deserve that. But reading some of the other comments, I can understand the other perspectives as well. A Marine is a Marine, regardless of O or E. Same for Soldiers. What I have read here, about this more modern force regarding themselves as Sailors more readily, reciting the Sailor's Creed, etc- might also be a demerit of the generation I come from, of the time I was in. Not sure. But a great question, it's made me think. I am a Sailor, and Thanks to all for making me realize it. I just have to live that vicariously on my pontoon boat now, rather than an FFG or DDG like I did back in my day!

Response by LCDR Timothy West made Apr 23 at 2015 4:53 PM

LCDR Timothy West — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:53:48 -0400

Plain and simple, if you're in the Navy then you're a Sailor.

Response by SCPO Ken Badoian made Apr 23 at 2015 4:56 PM

SCPO Ken Badoian — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 16:56:30 -0400

Yes if they are line officers. USNA grads spend summers at sea. I think it is in their second year they so aboard ship and do enlisted jobs. In their third year they learn bout the junior officer role. That said I am sure most would not like to be called sailors but naval officers just as senior enlisted would like to be addressed as Chief, Senior, Master Chief. I was, am. and will always be a Senior Chief Petty Officer, United States Navy, Retired. When they piped me over the side during my retirement ceremony I sail "you can take the sailor out of the Navy but can never take the Navy out of the sailor". MMCS(SW)(SS) USN Ret.

Response by PO2 Gerry Tandberg made Apr 23 at 2015 5:07 PM

PO2 Gerry Tandberg — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:07:27 -0400

Technically, Naval Officers are also Sailors. They sail off into the sunset just like all the rest of us in the Navy. However, the Sailor is generally considered to be the enlisted men and women in the Navy.

Webster's definition of Sailor:
1. a person who makes a living by sailing; mariner; seaman
2. an enlisted man in the navy
3. any person in the navy
4. a person sailing on a vessel
5. a straw hat with a low, flat crown and flat brim (I had to include this)
Wow, can we all be right?

Response by PO2 Johnathan Kerns made Apr 23 at 2015 5:19 PM

PO2 Johnathan Kerns — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:19:57 -0400

In my opinion, Naval Officers are not Sailors. I'm speaking from my experience only but there is too much of a distinction between Officers and Enlisted for this to be the case. I currently work with alot of Soldiers and I don't see as much of a distinction between O's and E's. Just as an example , an Officer in the Army wears the same ACU's as an E-1...just a different rank etc. In the Navy , the only uniform that I shared between O's and E's is the coveralls. (Are coveralls still standard issue? Lol)

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 5:25 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:25:14 -0400

Naval Officers are sailors, no doubt about it. They are and always will be. We are all sailors.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Apr 23 at 2015 5:26 PM

PO2 Skip Kirkwood — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:26:51 -0400

Do you want the answer to be "yes" or "no"? I can make a case for both. Read everything below, you will be able to do that also!

Response by CAPT Robert Rivera made Apr 23 at 2015 5:42 PM

CAPT Robert Rivera — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:42:11 -0400

I'm not even sure why the Master Chief is issuing this question. Last time I checked, when I went to sea, that's what sailors do, so I've always assumed I was a sailor first, and an officer second. Did I miss something in my 30 years of service?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 5:57 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 17:57:16 -0400

I think each service has it's own term for those that join. Navy happens to be sailor, Army is soldier.. and I think regardless of rank, each person deserves to be called by that name if they desire.

Response by PO3 Brian S. Spicer made Apr 23 at 2015 6:00 PM

PO3 Brian S. Spicer — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:00:57 -0400

Yes, in the Navy we are all Sailors who sail the seas. Naval Officers consist of Commissioned and Enlisted Officers.

Response by LCDR Halinganji Kanani made Apr 23 at 2015 6:01 PM

LCDR Halinganji Kanani — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:01:10 -0400

Of course Naval Officers are Sailors. The only reason this question gets asked is because of some confusion raised by the common practice within the Navy of using the word "sailor" as shorthand for enlisted person.
Obviously, words can have multiple meanings, and "sailor" is no exception. It's perfectly accurate to refer to all members of the naval service as Sailors, and it is also common usage to refer to the enlisted corps as Sailors. People will know what you mean by the context.

Response by PO3 Brian S. Spicer made Apr 23 at 2015 6:03 PM

PO3 Brian S. Spicer — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:03:33 -0400

Yes, we are all Sailors who sail the seas. Naval Officers consist of Commissioned and Enlisted Officers.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 6:07 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:07:44 -0400

I understand the distinction made between officer and enlisted, but like many other things that has "evolved" in our nation,the term sailor had taken on a new meaning. Anyone in the U.S. Navy is a sailor. As a naval aircrewman, I've got more time in the air than actually sailing. SWO's have all of the basic ship/sailor knowledge. Still I read that I am the actual sailor when I haven't been sailing much at all.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 6:09 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:09:27 -0400

Hmmmm so is "SAILOR" of the year ever awarded to an officer? ....I rest my case.

Response by LCDR Tony Kosloski made Apr 23 at 2015 6:24 PM

LCDR Tony Kosloski — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 18:24:10 -0400

I am a retired O-4 that served 16 years Enlisted and 14 as an Officer. Damn straight I'm a Sailor!
"The LDO/CWO posses on thing that the Direct Commission can pretend but can NEVER attain; the sure knowledge of what goes on in the heart and mind of an a Enlisted Man/Woman"

Response by PO1 Donald Schaufus made Apr 23 at 2015 7:26 PM

PO1 Donald Schaufus — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:26:00 -0400

Sailors yes, mariners probability not.
Not many are ship handlers, even some that are supposed to be.
No ship today should be involved in a collision at sea.
Just look at all the people that have been relieved.

Response by PO3 Nichalas Enser made Apr 23 at 2015 7:29 PM

PO3 Nichalas Enser — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:29:47 -0400

Fairly often, heard folks within the Navy use the term 'sailor' to refer to enlisted folks or anyone junior to them. Recall one time, for instance, when an officer called out, "Watch what you are doing, sailor!", to a line handler. Cannot really see Naval Personnel saying anything of the sort to a superior enlisted or commissioned person. Something more likely would be "Look out for that car, (Chief/Sir/Ma'am)!"

From outside of the Navy, officially and unofficially, most often hear it as 'enlisted and commissioned sailors', 'enlisted and officer sailors', 'enlisted and officers', or just 'sailors'. In the civilian world, have seen papers say things like "All of the sailors on the ship were lost" or "The pay-cuts will effect all sailors".

Honestly, as other have said, believe that anyone who has served in the Navy are sailors.

In common use, would say that, within the service, it refers to those more junior than the speaker. Outside of the service, it refers to *anyone* who is assigned to/works on any type of ship and enlisted or commissioned personnel in the Navy.

Response by LT Bill Brandon made Apr 23 at 2015 7:40 PM

LT Bill Brandon — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:40:00 -0400

On a ship, you're either a Sailor or a Tourist. Regardless of whatever pay grade I happened to have been, I always aspired to be the former, not the latter. That was a long time ago. Maybe things are different now.

Response by PO3 Richard Freitas made Apr 23 at 2015 7:40 PM

PO3 Richard Freitas — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 19:40:39 -0400

I'm actually amazed that anyone would even ask this question. The Navy is the Navy ... and anyone in the Navy is a sailor - from recruit to Admiral. It's that simple!

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 8:16 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 20:16:06 -0400

Well if Marine Officer's are Marines, just like the Enlisted. Army Officer's are Soldiers, Air Force officers are still Airmen. It stands to reason Naval Officers are Sailors.

My 2 cents

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 8:36 PM

CPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 20:36:29 -0400

In my opinion Master Chief the Navy needs to take a look at other branches and the interaction between officers/enlisted. We are the only branch that separates our enlisted from officers by uniform, messing, etc. We are a team and should look and act like one. I have said many times to myself, "why are we the only branch that segregates our rank structure?" Don't get me wrong I love the Navy but it's time to make a few changes for the better. The Navy needs let go of some of the old out dated traditions. I have heard too many times, "because it's tradition." I not saying let go of all traditions but some. We are all sailors and they should know the sailors creed, everyone in the Navy should.

Response by CPO Jim Turner made Apr 23 at 2015 8:58 PM

CPO Jim Turner — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 20:58:34 -0400

Are naval officers sailors? Yes. Enough said.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 23 at 2015 9:25 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 21:25:32 -0400

Officers were probably upset because the Sailor's Creed contradicts the Officer's Oath of Office:

I, [name], do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

Officers swear to support and defend the Constitution, but obedience of orders is only covered indirectly, as a duty of the office. Officers are expected to always evaluate their orders and instructions in light of their Constitutional obligations.

As for the question of "Naval Officers" being "Sailors": the naval services, broadly defined, are the Navy, Marine Corps, and Coast Guard. Marine officers are clearly not sailors, but I certainly hope Navy and Coast Guard leaders rate the title!

Response by MCPO Bob Hankins made Apr 23 at 2015 10:18 PM

MCPO Bob Hankins — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 22:18:31 -0400

Truly some of the best sailors are Naval Officers.

Response by PO3 Rod Arnold made Apr 23 at 2015 10:20 PM

PO3 Rod Arnold — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 22:20:34 -0400

Rank plays no part in being a sailor!!

Response by PO1 Todd Cousins made Apr 23 at 2015 11:03 PM

PO1 Todd Cousins — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 23:03:15 -0400

Master Cheif you have asked one of the hardest questions to answer I have seen in a while. Well done! Here is my attempt to answer from an old retired guy who spent most of his career with Marines until my last five years. Which I was a small boy IDC three of those.

As a young sailor the Marines taught me what unity and togetherness truly means. I had to fight with Captians and Majors at meal time in the field because they wanted me to eat before them. They saw each Marine and sailor under their command not just as subordinate but as a family member. Mission always came first but their men's and women's health ran a close second. Everyone I served with from Private to Sgt to Gunny and officer saw themselves as a rifleman first and their rank second. It was not that way in the ship. I had officers and cheif's alike that didn't listen to me or any first simply because they whore first class in third collar. There is a distinct and palpable difference of rank on a ship to include living arrangements, treatment and even food quality. These differences lead to the feeling that officers and chief's weren't sailors like the rest of us. I don't think either way is wrong and I won't say officers or chiefs aren't sailors, I believe they are, but that it means different things to each in the navy and the same thing to every Marine.

My two cents there.

Response by PO1 Gregg Mundy made Apr 23 at 2015 11:15 PM

PO1 Gregg Mundy — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 23:15:09 -0400

Do we as adult military personnel really need to answer such an out-of-touch question. Don't we have more important things at hand then to worry about a Sailor's Creed? With the world full of doubt about everything we do, do we really need to micro-manage the status and jobs our military personnel?? Just because you can or can't recite the Sailor's Creed does not make you a Naval Officer or a Sailor. To answer your question, of course Naval Officers are Sailors? Does the sun rise in the east and set in the west??

Response by PO2 Kevin LaCroix made Apr 23 at 2015 11:48 PM

PO2 Kevin LaCroix — Thu, 23 Apr 2015 23:48:35 -0400

Yes, but they are a different type of sailor. Their job is to instill disipline and order and be a point of focus when it is time for action. Some officers forget this and get hung up on management and being the "boss".

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 5:42 AM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 05:42:51 -0400

The idea that a commissioned service member is somehow elevated above the status that his fellow service members hold is Ludacris. Whether you swab a deck, or navigate a CVN, or get your boots dirty in a foreign country, a NAVY person is a sailor. An officer saying hes an officer, not a sailor only disrespects the other service branch officers and makes the Navy look silly.

If you look it up, the Sailor's Creed was designed around the principles of junior officers and senior enlisted..

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 7:18 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 07:18:42 -0400

If these "officers" don't want the title, I'll happily take it from them. Jerks.

Response by CDR Mike Kovack made Apr 24 at 2015 7:32 AM

CDR Mike Kovack — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 07:32:46 -0400

Damn straight! ;)

Response by PO1 Aaron Baltosser made Apr 24 at 2015 8:12 AM

PO1 Aaron Baltosser — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:12:39 -0400

If an 'officer' has a problem with reciting the Sailor's Creed, they require immediate correcting. My old Master Chief referred to that correction, as "recalibrating". By refusing to recite the Sailor's Creed, or having some petty complication over it, they forget one simple truth. When that same officer says "I'm an officer in the _ _ _ _." They can't say Navy, without including themselves as a Sailor. Sailor dies NOT mean Enlisted. It means quite simply a seagoing tradition, of sailoing and Sailors. Originally, the best officers were those that were well versed in how to sail a ship. If they now see it as somehow a description they would rather avoid, perhaps they are "just paying their loan back" which is something I've heard an officer say during my career.

Response by LCDR Tony Kosloski made Apr 24 at 2015 8:14 AM

LCDR Tony Kosloski — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:14:54 -0400

Master Chief by chance do have a link to that story? I would be very interested in reading it.

Response by PO1 John Dworske made Apr 24 at 2015 8:26 AM

PO1 John Dworske — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:26:04 -0400

I served for 23.5 years; in the fleet; but mostly as a Seabee. Everybody in the Navy should be considered as a "Sailor"! We are or were in the Navy afterall. PS; Bravo Zulu to those still serving!

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 8:27 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:27:45 -0400

Like John Paul Jones and Arleigh Burke before me, I too am both proud and honored to wear the titles of Officer, Gentalman, Warrior, Leader, and Sailor.

We lead men and women at sea, and to the shores of foreign lands far from home. I may never know what causes a man to reject, hide from, or down-play who and what they are in life, but I know this much; I am a Sailor.

Response by MCPO Dennis Didier made Apr 24 at 2015 8:46 AM

MCPO Dennis Didier — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:46:02 -0400

People in the Navy, all ranks, rates, designators, corps, etc., speak "sailor:" deck, bulkhead, line, aft, etc. I would reckon this makes them sailors. I attended a rear admiral's retirement ceremony several years ago and included in his comments was this: "after 35 years, I consider myself a pretty damn good sailor." For those who choose not to refer to themselves as sailors, you are literally and figuratively missing the boat.

Response by CPO Dr. Jeffrey Reppert, Ph.D. , C. P. M., ITIL made Apr 24 at 2015 8:46 AM

CPO Dr. Jeffrey Reppert, Ph.D. , C. P. M., ITIL — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:46:27 -0400

Absolutely!

Response by CPO Charles Osgood made Apr 24 at 2015 8:51 AM

CPO Charles Osgood — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:51:07 -0400

We are " SAILORS " when we take the Oath of Service to our Country . YES there are differences between rate and rank but each has a job . The Navy has special events , Crossing the Equator , Panama Canal Crossing , Suez Canal , Antarctica and " CHIEF Initiation " . There have been many Captains and Admirals who have asked to become a " Chief "through initiation .

Response by CAPT Gary Foster made Apr 24 at 2015 8:52 AM

CAPT Gary Foster — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 08:52:06 -0400

If you are commissioned into the United States Navy as an officer then yes, you are a Sailor. You are charged with leading men and women Sailors from all backgrounds and warfare specialties, no matter where you serve. Both Staff Corps and Unrestricted Line Officers wear the uniform and must lead. It is unfortunate that not everyone wearing the officer uniform goes to sea, and that is in many cases not the fault of that officer. But that does not make him or her any less of a sailor.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 9:34 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 09:34:03 -0400

Absolutely

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 10:20 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 10:20:58 -0400

I saw this in another post but can't seem to find it now our I would like it and comment there.

I did not know that Adm Arleigh Burke simply has the word "sailor" on his gravestone.

I got to meet he and Bertie, "Sailors Wife", once when my ship the USS Jospehus Daniels won the Arleigh Burke award, I think in 1987. He was not in good health so at dinner we mainly got to hear Bertie tell stories of their life in the Navy. She told us a story of when he was the CNO he would spend his weekends travelling between DC and Norfolk picking up sailors that were hitchhiking. Since this was long before the internet no one really knew what the Admiral looked like so he was able to grill them for info on the state of affairs on the ships like how the food was, repairs, ect... He would return to work Monday morning with all these specifics and the senior Navy staff never figured out where he was getting his intel from. They were truly a Sailors Sailor and a Sailors Wife in every since of the word.

Response by LT John Stevens made Apr 24 at 2015 11:56 AM

LT John Stevens — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 11:56:26 -0400

You can bet your 6#9&1%4 @$$ I am.

The REAL job of being an officer is to LEAD Sailors. You cannot lead sailors without being one. That does not mean officers are better. It only means that we are taught different skills and given different responsibilities. I always saw one of my primary responsibilities was to learn as much as I could about what my men were required to do so that I understood the challenges they faced so that I was then better prepared to help them do their job.

Response by PO3 Robert Gunderson made Apr 24 at 2015 12:12 PM

PO3 Robert Gunderson — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:12:51 -0400

I went to dictionary.com and looked up the word Sailor and it states "1) a person whose occupation is sailing 2) a seaman below the rank of officer 3) a naval enlistee 4) a person adept at sailing. 5) a flat brimmed straw hat with a low flat crown. Origin 1400 sailer agent noun from sail (/browse/sail) (v.). Spelling with -o- arose 16c., probably by influence of tailor, ETC., and to distinguish the meaning "seaman, mariner" from "thing that sails." it replaces much older seaman (/browser/seaman) seaman and mariner (/browser/mariner) (q.q.v). Old English also had "merefara" "sailor". Applied as an adjective from 1870 to clothing styles and items based on a sailor's characteristic attare. So my conclusions are this according to definitions 1 and 4 the naval officer is a sailor, according to definitions 2 and 3, no, and according to definition 5, no one is. and according to the derivations (word origins) The naval officer is a sailor. I go like this depending of what definition you use, the Naval Officer, is and is not a sailor. If an officer wants to call himself a sailor I know which definitions he is using if not I know the other way around. I am a sailor in all definitions exept #5.

Response by PO2 Stephen Green made Apr 24 at 2015 12:38 PM

PO2 Stephen Green — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 12:38:29 -0400

Really? Is this honestly a debate. They wear the uniform and work right next to any other man. Of course they are sailors. ....!!!

Response by PO1 Matthew Vaughn made Apr 24 at 2015 1:07 PM

PO1 Matthew Vaughn — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:07:37 -0400

Depends on how you look at it... But the answer is YES. If you are in the Navy, wearing a Naval uniform, you are a sailor. There are some sailors, officer and enlisted both that never serve on a ship, but they are still sailors. This doesn't happen too often as far as I know, but it does happen.

Response by LT Garth Young (Ret) made Apr 24 at 2015 1:21 PM

LT Garth Young (Ret) — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 13:21:26 -0400

Sailor: One who sails. On a ship or boat? Ever been on a ship or boat?
You're a Sailor, regardless of Rank, Rate, Enlisted, Commissioned.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 2:43 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 14:43:08 -0400

Yep, I'm a Sailor.

Response by PO3 Eddie Sinsmeister made Apr 24 at 2015 4:29 PM

PO3 Eddie Sinsmeister — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 16:29:20 -0400

All this controversy over "A WORD".

Would it just be "easier" to rename the creed. From Sailor's to The Naval Creed or The Navy Creed.

Response by PO2 Mark Saffell made Apr 24 at 2015 4:46 PM

PO2 Mark Saffell — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 16:46:02 -0400

I have one question for all you Naval Officers. How do you expect to lead the men you are appointed to lead when you cant relate to them and stand up and be counted as one Sailor to another? The Navy is based upon some long standing traditions. When i was in the officers crawled on there hands and knees and kissed the Royal baby's belly just like the rest of us. They went through the same ceremony as I did to become a Shellback. How do you think us Shellbacks would have looked at you if you had skated around that tradition and said your not a sailor like we are. I will bet you money Admiral Halsey would proudly say he was a sailor first and an officer second.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 5:16 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:16:58 -0400

If as an Officer one were not also a Sailor, I think one would have a very short, very dismal, very frustrating Naval career.

Response by PO3 Michael James made Apr 24 at 2015 5:44 PM

PO3 Michael James — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:44:20 -0400

Believe me I have heard them called all sorts of things.. some I will not repeat.. However I have Never heard them called "sailors".. but what else would the be called ?? Wanna be Marines ?? With Respect..

Response by PO3 Michael James made Apr 24 at 2015 5:48 PM

PO3 Michael James — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 17:48:29 -0400

Believe me.. I really have never heard them called " Sailors ".. I have however, heard them called all sorts of other things.. some I refuse to repeat... That said, what else would they be called ??? Wanna Be Marines ?? ... With Respect...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 7:35 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 19:35:47 -0400

What an odd question. Of course they are Sailors. They may be Naval Officers, but they are still Sailors. Just don't call them "shipmate." ;)

Response by CAPT S C Garriott made Apr 24 at 2015 7:45 PM

CAPT S C Garriott — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 19:45:00 -0400

Good officers are good sailors. Great officers are great sailors and great warriors. You can not lead what you do not know.

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Apr 24 at 2015 8:56 PM

PO1 Glenn Boucher — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 20:56:37 -0400

If you are in the Navy then you are a sailor, if there is any question otherwise than maybe those people have other bigger issues than being called a sailor going on. Be proud of who you are and what branch of service you serve in.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 9:47 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 21:47:18 -0400

Well I believe they are Sailors first just like Army Officers are Soldiers first. However, officers are supposed to have latitude in regards to orders. That is why the judicial process is different. Majority of baby boomers have missed or obscured this fact when mentoring Gen-Xers and Millennials. An abundance of confusion about what is consider "discretion" of give rank and duty positions therefore ensued across all branch. You have abuse of power (toxicity, ethics violations, and poor judgement) and weakness (analysis paralysis in regards to ROE, and compliance with illegal or unethical behaviors). Resistance by officers to the phase "obey ALL orders" has merit. But rather than tell you why, I will challenge you to do research. To motivate you, think of the "by the book" examples the resulted in unnecessary lose of life or mission failure. Think then why we have rules and orders and the peril of not following them. Then consider we should obey most of the time but we will have to deviate some times. Now consider the one who created the rule or gave the order is not present or is unable to provide sound judgement when deviation is required. So you then turn to the next level decision maker responsible to use discretion. That officer will have to account for his or her decisions.

A naval example -officer: "he said go forward" nco: "come on sir not into a hurricane" officer: "but I follow the sailor's creed" nco: "dam"

Response by SSgt Robert Clark made Apr 24 at 2015 10:45 PM

SSgt Robert Clark — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 22:45:02 -0400

Guess I am over simplifying things but I always thought if you were in the Nave you were a sailor, if you were in the Army you were a soldier, if you were in the Marine Corps you were a marine and if you were in the Air Force you were an airman. Maybe I'm wrong?

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2015 11:20 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Apr 2015 23:20:52 -0400

My daughter serves as a Seabee, and they are fondly referred to as 'dirt Sailors', but when speaking to the CMC, he referred to the men and women in his unit as 'troops'. That threw me. So, I guess all Sailors are not considered Sailors.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 1:37 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 01:37:09 -0400

While not a sailor, I can say from the Army perspective that those who are in the Army, regardless of rank or job, are considered Soldiers. Notice the capital "s", as the Army has adopted this capitalization as it is considered a title.
I would not want to be under the command of an officer who does not embrace the profession which he has been entrusted as a guardian. Indeed, they do not belong nor deserve to serve in the military or any leadership role at all!

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Apr 25 at 2015 2:24 AM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 02:24:34 -0400

That's a good question that I never thought about but yes, they're Sailors too. If you're enlisted, I don't recommend walking up to one and saying "hey Sailor" because some might think it's not respectful. It is like there is officer staterooms and crew's berthing on ships. Since when isn't an officer part of the crew?

Response by CDR Dan Campbell made Apr 25 at 2015 2:52 AM

CDR Dan Campbell — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 02:52:22 -0400

Interesting viewpoints. I started out as a lowly sailor (yup, seaman recruit) and I never gave it any thought after that, even when I retired as a commander. I guess I don't see any need for a sailor's creed. It's another example of the Navy wanting to be like the other armed forces...as in those god-awful pajama uniforms that we wear now.

Response by CPO George Mac made Apr 25 at 2015 8:56 AM

CPO George Mac — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 08:56:55 -0400

I am and will always proudly consider myself a sailor. Well put, PO1. If it was good enough for John Paul Jones and the likes of Admiral Burke, that's good enough for me. You don't like it. Shut up and get out of MY Navy. Tjis falls right in step with thoses who whine about sea duty. If you don't want to get underway, what the *&^% did you join the NAVY for? Please do me a favor....shut up and drive on. Jeeze.

Response by CPO Norman Mauldin made Apr 25 at 2015 9:48 AM

CPO Norman Mauldin — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 09:48:28 -0400

We are all sailors (Naval Officers and Enlisted). If your primary duty finds you on the deck of a ship, the shoe fits. If your rank or rate is a Naval rank or rate, suck it up, YOU ARE A SAILOR. If you don't like it, join another branch.

Response by LT John Stevens made Apr 25 at 2015 11:28 AM

LT John Stevens — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 11:28:34 -0400

A slightly different perspective here -- I am not certain that every sailor that serves is a "Sailor." I am not suggesting that you have to be a Sailor to be a good man or woman. Many aviators are not Sailors. There are many great aviators -- if you don't believe me, just ask them. ;-)

I think that figuratively speaking, Sailors have salt water in their blood. There is something about the sea making it like a loving wife. Long periods of calm, beautiful water, dolphins, sunsets, the smell of islands as you approach them. The sea is a beautiful lady.

But then there are raging storms, gusting winds, and blue water over the bow, the ship surging forward on its mission, the sailors with perfect coordination and lack of fear walking the wildly moving decks, climbing the bucking ladders, and sometimes climbing high in the ship to do their duty.

Sailors may complain and commiserate about being at sea, but the deep down truth is that real Sailors love every minute of it.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 3:01 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 15:01:19 -0400

BLUF: Yes

My two cents:
Officers also swear to support and defend the Constitution.
Officers also obey the orders of those appointed over them. (Even Admirals work for someone.)
Officers also represent the fighting spirit of the Navy and those who have gone before.
Officers also proudly serve their country's Navy combat team with Honor, Courage, and Commitment.
Officers are also committed to excellence and the fair treatment of all.

If "The Sailor's Creed" is what defines a Sailor, everyone in the Navy is a Sailor. You could replace Officers with Seabees, SEALs, etc. in all the sentences. I whole heartedly believe that we should be proud of those things that make us unique, but that we should identify first and foremost with those things that unite us. We are Americans first and Sailors second. Everything else follows. When that time comes for someone to drag you from the fire (or visa versa), that person will be an American. Depending on your assignment, they will most likely be a Sailor, but could be a Soldier, Marine, or Airman. They could be an Electrician's Mate, a Builder, a Corpsman, ... They could be a Seaman, a Chief, an Ensign, a Comander ... They could be African American, Asian American, Mexican American, Irish American, ... They could be Catholic, Baptist, Muslim, ... The possible variations are endless, but in the end, we are all Americans fighting for our (imperfect, but nonetheless) great nation.

Response by CPO Lawrence J Butera Jr made Apr 25 at 2015 6:51 PM

CPO Lawrence J Butera Jr — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 18:51:40 -0400

If you are in or were in the U S NAVY you are a sailor. Maybe some skimmer feels its degrading to be grouped with his men But that's life . I have been stationed with Aviators and Submariners and never felt they treated us like an inferior. I was a TDC(AC) and NO I never went to sea other then five (5) Cruises on a Liner .

Response by CPO Mohadib Paul made Apr 25 at 2015 8:56 PM

CPO Mohadib Paul — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 20:56:40 -0400

They are commissioned Sailors......

Response by SN Greg Wright made Apr 25 at 2015 9:24 PM

SN Greg Wright — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 21:24:43 -0400

When I was in, many times, I've seen superior officers call junior officers 'Sailor' when addressing them. I think we'd find in an official poll of the entire cadre that most consider themselves sailors. Just my opinion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2015 11:07 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 Apr 2015 23:07:32 -0400

I had to learn this creed and said it with pride during Navy Diver School!

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 26 at 2015 3:17 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 03:17:29 -0400

Yes. I thought... Army = Soldier (E-1 thur O-10), and USMC = Marines, USAF = Airmen, and USN (all) Sailors....

Response by SN Trevor Sanchez made Apr 26 at 2015 7:15 AM

SN Trevor Sanchez — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 07:15:50 -0400

When I was in the Navy, the phrase " I will obey the orders of those appointed over me", had one more word that was obviously taken out. That word was "Lawful". The phrase was: I will obey the "lawful" orders of those appointed over me. Seems things have changed to where even if you know the order is not "lawful". You have to obey it. This is one of the reasons the group "Oath Keepers" have come into being.

Response by SN Josecaridad Pendas made Apr 26 at 2015 4:07 PM

SN Josecaridad Pendas — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 16:07:56 -0400

A marine out in a Battle against an enemy is a marine whether you have a leaf or bars or chevrons on the uniform he is still a MARINE. If I am at sea onboard my ship in a Battle against my enemy I am a SAILOR no mater my rank.

Response by SN Josecaridad Pendas made Apr 26 at 2015 4:26 PM

SN Josecaridad Pendas — Sun, 26 Apr 2015 16:26:05 -0400

A marine in a battle against his enemy is a MARINE, the enemy is not aiming at the Leafs, Bars or Chevron's on a uniform. If I am on my ship out at sea in a battle the enemy will not be aiming at my rank, just as the MARINE, SOLDIER, AIRMAN I am a SAILOR not A RANK.

Response by PO2 David Hagwood made Apr 27 at 2015 7:38 AM

PO2 David Hagwood — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 07:38:52 -0400

Is a Marine Officer a Marine? Is an Army Officer a Soldier? I'm sure they would proudly answer "yes". It has pissed me off to see Naval Officers not reciting the Sailor's Creed because they feel like they want to set themselves so far apart from us that they don't even want to call themselves Sailors for some reason. They are, by definition, Sailors; and they should show their pride and show their willingness to be a part of the team. We have a rank structure; but every service is a team, enlisted and officers together.

Response by LT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 1:31 PM

LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 13:31:56 -0400

I have been and always will be a Sailor. It should be noted that it was a small subset that actually objected.

Response by CDR Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2015 5:17 PM

CDR Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 17:17:37 -0400

Well, as a Naval Officer and former CPO who's never been assigned to a ship in my 22 years in the Navy, I don't know that I'm qualified to answer this question, but former CNO, Admiral Arleigh Burke, chose to describe himself simply as "Sailor" on his tombstone. If the CNO can consider himself a Sailor, then that should be good enough to answer the question.

In all practicality, I believe a Sailor to be, well...someone who knows how to sail, or at least navigate and pilot a ship. In that sense, I guess I'm not a Sailor, nor are any of the "Dirt Sailor" officers and enlisted I know.

Just my two cents.

Response by SPC David S. made Apr 27 at 2015 8:41 PM

SPC David S. — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 20:41:39 -0400

I would be curious to know if the Merchant Marines from King's Point would agree with this as they are the only service academy with a authorized battle standard. As to the creed I certainly would hope that all Naval officers would instill these qualities, however we all know its far easier to recite words than to apply them.

Response by PO2 Steven Erickson made Apr 27 at 2015 9:01 PM

PO2 Steven Erickson — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 21:01:18 -0400

Ye be yankin' on me hawser, right Master Chief?

We're ACTUALLY having this discussion? ARRRRGGHH!!!!!!!

I hereby SOLICIT and INVITE any officer who wears or wore a USN, USCG or USMS uniform that does NOT consider him/herself to be a SAILOR to send me a personal message explaining his/her position. I promise to listen (read) each response with an open mind... really... because I'm having a hard time believing that such a person exists.

That said, I do believe that some Naval Officers would be "offended" by having to recite the Sailor's Creed. (On the boat, we nukes "calibrated" these officers quickly - nearly every submarine officer had to be a graduate of NNPT and had to qualify as Engineering Officer of the Watch [EOOW]. And anybody who's served on a nuke boat will attest to the independence, "belligerence-capacity" and snarky-ness of nukes.)

I swear on the memory of Admiral Rickover that I will update the entire RP community on how many messages I get. 7:^D

Response by SN Kelton Channing made Apr 27 at 2015 10:35 PM

SN Kelton Channing — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 22:35:32 -0400

I never felt so un appreciated in my life until I joined the navy. I was expecting a sense of brotherhood and family,but what it was Is the complete opposite . Officers look down on you like you are disgusting. I think this separation needs to be fixed, because I don't see anything good coming from treating some like kings and others like scum.

Response by SGT Richard H. made Apr 27 at 2015 11:27 PM

SGT Richard H. — Mon, 27 Apr 2015 23:27:06 -0400

Here would be my litmus test on a question like this: Can you effectively lead that which you are not?
Can someone who is not a Marine be a leader of Marines?
Can someone who is not a Soldier be a leader of Soldiers?
Can someone who is not an Airman be a leader of Airmen?
Can someone who is not a Sailor be a leader of Sailors?

I came up with a "No" on all four questions. There you have it. Scientific elimination at work.

A Naval Officer is also a Sailor....or not an effective leader of them.

Response by PO2 Christi Ballard made Apr 28 at 2015 6:46 PM

PO2 Christi Ballard — Tue, 28 Apr 2015 18:46:15 -0400

As a 3rd generation sailor, I would say this to the "officers" in training. If you didn't want to be a part of the greatest fleet in the world, then why did you join? Similar to those that don't want to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, remove their hat when hearing the "Anthem", etc., if you don't like it, roll out. No one asked you to join. See ya. Leave. Don't let the door hit ya where the Good Lord split ya!

If however, you wish to not be known as part of the problem this country is facing, then suck it up buttercup! We neither want nor need your kind. Perhaps your cushy life, provided in great part by SAILORS, has caused you to forget just how your freedom was gained and is maintained.

As a matter of fact, nevermind about being called a sailor. You don't deserve the honor.

Response by CH (MAJ) William Beaver made Apr 29 at 2015 5:04 PM

CH (MAJ) William Beaver — Wed, 29 Apr 2015 17:04:28 -0400

Does a frog bump his butt when he hops?

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Apr 30 at 2015 7:29 AM

Capt Jeff S. — Thu, 30 Apr 2015 07:29:16 -0400

Do Naval Officers study "Navigation" as part of their ROTC/Naval Academy curriculum? It's a pretty intensive course and teaches you how to navigate a vessel the old school way, taking into account not only the vessel's speed and heading, but the effects of wind, current, etc. that must be compensated for. Do they teach boatswainsmates how to do that?

The Navy officers are traditionally a lot more separated from their enlisted counterparts, not only in how they dress and what they are taught, but in how they work and live. Marine Officers by comparison are a lot closer to their troops. In Marine culture, a Marine is a Marine first, and then the distinctions are made from there. I would expect the Navy officers to consider themselves Sailors first, and then make the distinction from there.

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made May 20 at 2015 12:36 PM

SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA — Wed, 20 May 2015 12:36:01 -0400

Of course they are.

Army Officers and Enlisted are both Soldiers.
USMC Officers and Enlisted are both Marines.
USAF Officers and Enlisted are both Airmen.

So why would it be any different for the Navy?

Officers and Enlisted are both Sailors.

Response by LTJG Frederick Birchmore made May 20 at 2015 12:40 PM

LTJG Frederick Birchmore — Wed, 20 May 2015 12:40:45 -0400

Always wanted to be a sailor. Read my Dad's Bluejacket Manual soon's I learned to read. After receiving the draft notice in 66 (Army! Vietnam!) I fled into the sheltering harbor of the Navy recruiting station, where, because of my degree, they said I should be an officer. I thus succumbed to the temptations of officership. Sparkly uniforms! Private stateroom! Stewards to shine your shoes! Silver napkin rings at the wardroom table! Exotic, peaceful ports o'call, perhaps the Mediterranean! You can see the relief in my face in the Cua Viet River photo on the port side of this writing. Aboard ship, especially the large ships, the gap between Os and Es was pronounced and emphasized by architecture. Smaller vessels were more cohesive. On my boats, of course, we all looked the same, at least to those guys in the treeline. Which opens a thought -- What if Marines , like the shipboard Navy, employed a caste system, and the officers, in the field, wore like a big plume of feathers on their helmets, to show that they were the most important target? Guess it worked for Pickett's Charge, where all those officers, wearing the feathers, in front of the horde, received the first and most attention from both sides...

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made May 21 at 2015 2:23 PM

MAJ Keira Brennan — Thu, 21 May 2015 14:23:25 -0400

What a cool question on the existential level Master Chief! In some ways in the Army you aren't "really" a soldier until your done with your MOS training. In the Marine Corps isn't if once you've graduated from Recruit Training? In the Army, as a prior enlisted Officer (5yrs), I always felt that the "Joes" (GI Joes) were the enlisted troops and officers were...officers. But I am an AMERICAN SOLDIER.

Just like MacArthur said in his retirement speech to Congress, "Old soldiers never die, they just fade away..." If a 5-Star with 50 odd years of service thought himself a soldier, so can I!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made May 23 at 2015 7:15 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Sat, 23 May 2015 19:15:55 -0400

Officers of any respective branch are Soldiers, Marines, Airmen, Coastguardsmen, etc. If Offices do not perceive themselves as Soldiers first and foremost (in the Army, for example) then this is a red flag to me.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2015 10:03 AM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 25 May 2015 10:03:06 -0400

Of course they are!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 7:47 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Jun 2015 19:47:59 -0400

Dumb question!

Response by LCDR Karl Stout made Jun 10 at 2015 2:12 AM

LCDR Karl Stout — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 02:12:56 -0400

I am sorry to have to enter this public discussion again but I do not have the ability to email you.

Master Chief, I have put a lot of thought to this discussion. I misstated at first, as I have admitted, I never meant to take away anyone's "sailorness'" I simply do not call myself a "sailor." I add this to my reasoning, I am a Staff Officer not Line. It seems presumptuous of me to call myself a "sailor" when any line personnel, officer or enlisted" would take precedence over me in a lifeboat during a ship's evacuation. Perhaps if I lived through such an emergency I would feel like a sailor. I carry around a DOD Geneva Convention ID that says I am a non-combatant, "for medical and religious personnel who serve in or accompany the Armed Forces" I was trained to state I was a non-combatant if captured, to identify myself as medical personnel.

I call myself " a mean old Navy guy." That suits me better. Retired works too, I feel that explains who I am. Or Navy Nurse is better, that is more specific to my role in the navy, "mean old navy guy more specific to my personality, retired to my sense of duty. If someone said to me, "OH! you were a sailor!" I would not correct them. But I would not bestow that honor on myself.

Respectfully, I am sorry about any misunderstanding
LCDR Stout NC USN (mean ol' navy guy)

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 10 at 2015 2:16 AM

PO1 John Miller — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 02:16:39 -0400

YES. If you are in the Navy, then you are a SAILOR, period.

I've had this argument with Seabees before. They seem to think that they're not Sailors since they rarely ride ships. I tell them, "your uniform still says US Navy no matter how much you think you're a Marine. You're a Sailor."

Response by PO2 Brad Colonna made Jun 10 at 2015 4:31 PM

PO2 Brad Colonna — Wed, 10 Jun 2015 16:31:19 -0400

Yes. Discussion over.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 29 at 2015 4:01 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 Jul 2015 16:01:22 -0400

There may be some Naval Officers who don't consider themselves Sailors, but I've never met one.

Response by Jacob Casaus made Jul 30 at 2015 12:48 AM

Jacob Casaus — Thu, 30 Jul 2015 00:48:48 -0400

Of course they are

Response by MCPO Bob Shea made Aug 4 at 2015 3:05 PM

MCPO Bob Shea — Tue, 04 Aug 2015 15:05:33 -0400

I know this is an old post however...I was a BMCM and pretty sure that qualifies me as a sailor but you're damn right officers are sailors! From Ensigns right up to Admirals I've had them all working side by side!

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 9:03 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Aug 2015 09:03:17 -0400

I would assume they are Sailors. Marine Officers are Marines. I am surprised that they would get their skivvies in a knot over reciting The Sailors Creed.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 10:20 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 10:20:27 -0400

Former officer...proud LIFETIME sailor!

"How long ye been in the Navy?"
"All me blooming life Sir...I was born on the crest of a wave and rocked in the cradle of the deep.Every bone in me arm is a spar, and when I spits...I spit tar!"

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2015 11:05 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 11 Aug 2015 11:05:03 -0400

I own it now, but.... it's never truly encompassed officers the way that Maine or Airman has.

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made Mar 29 at 2016 3:53 PM

SFC Marcus Belt — Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:53:29 -0400

I served in the USN for 4 years: '90-'94, and I guess my reply would be: to lead Sailors into combat, one must (generally) be a Sailor. God bless ADM Burke...I was part of the commissioning ceremony for DDG-51.

Response by Maj John Bell made Nov 1 at 2016 7:40 PM

Maj John Bell — Tue, 01 Nov 2016 19:40:27 -0400

Funny thing, while public opinion would say that an officer with a commission in the USMC is a Marine. Public Opinion is wrong. Officers in the Marines are Naval Officers [go ahead say were Navy officers and I'll dot your damnable eyes! :) ] The correct title is not "Marine Second Lieutenant." The correct title is "Second Lieutenant OF Marines". (substitute the rank of choice) Source is Naval Etiquette. And that is the way each of my commissions reads.

My opinion though I am proud to be considered a Marine and love the lads and lassies dearly, Marines earn the title in boot camp; a regimen I never went through. IMO I think the title applies to Mustangs.

Response by LT Bill Brandon made Nov 3 at 2016 1:26 PM

LT Bill Brandon — Thu, 03 Nov 2016 13:26:23 -0400

It's written on the heart. If "Sailor" is not written on the heart, then rank or commissioned/enlisted state or reciting a Creed won't make a man or a woman a sailor. Only the heart does that. You've got it or you haven't.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2016 12:04 PM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:04:13 -0500

I have always thought Army = Soldier, USMC = Marines, USAF = Airmen, and USN (all) Sailors. (E-1 thur O-10) With all of the changes that have been going on of late the term of military personal fits all.

Response by LT John Stevens made Nov 17 at 2016 1:23 PM

LT John Stevens — Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:23:45 -0500

I will not attempt to speak for others; However, as a Surface Warfare Officer in the US Navy, I took great pride in the fact that I could, and did at times, perform the exact same work as the sailors I led and with whom I worked.

I was never as good as any one experienced and trained sailor, but I considered it my responsibility to fully understand what I expected, or demanded, of the men and women with whom I served. As A, E, IC, and R Division officer, I learned to weld, braze, lag, repair pumps, machine metal, and perform every other task of the men in my division. Additionally, as a "Deck" officer, I learned the skills of bridge standers, Bosuns, and Signalmen. I could read flags and understand flashing light Morse Code (although not terribly well). As CIC Watch Officer or Tactical Action Officer in CIC I knew how to plot, operate all CIC equipment and sensors, and analyze the information therefrom. Once, I beat out all of the Bosuns on my ship in a Piping contest using a Bosun Pipe;-))

Where I earned my bars as an officer was that I brought leadership, a wide range of knowledge across all of the skill sets represented by the sailors who reported to me, as well as the specialized training I received in the skills and abilities required of an officer.

Yes -- I did consider myself a sailor. Yes, there is still salt in my veins.

Response by MCPO Dennis Didier made Nov 18 at 2016 8:23 AM

MCPO Dennis Didier — Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:23:50 -0500

I have a nephew who retired after 35 years in CG as a two star. He held command of six cutters, plus all the sea duty needed to get to that position. At his retirement ceremony, he considered himself to "be a pretty good sailor."

Response by Cadet Rubino made Mar 28 at 2017 2:35 PM

Cadet Rubino — Tue, 28 Mar 2017 14:35:49 -0400

Of course, if you serve in the United States Navy, you are a Sailor, no matter what rank, rate they are, they are still Sailor's.