Are our Officers and NCOs still using 4856 as a tool to better our Soldiers and to hold them accountable on their actions and why?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:19:57 -0400

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:20 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:20:53 -0400

Our Soldiers - correction

Response by SFC Craig Dalen made May 11 at 2016 11:21 AM

SFC Craig Dalen — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:21:17 -0400

Yes, because it is important and the only true forcing function for good or bad behavior.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:21 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:21:32 -0400

I know I use them to help develop my NCOs and I hold my NCOs accountable if/when they are not counseling their Soldiers.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:25 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:25:39 -0400

And if you are, that's outstanding. Let's spread the words to encourage our Leaders to use it (4856) if they have stopped for some reasons. I have seen too many Leaders and Soldiers who are failing or fail others simply because they are never counseled or their Leaders never hold them accountable.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:48 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:48:18 -0400

MAJ - Your wording alludes to one of the biggest issues I've experienced with leaders and the 4856.

I once called in SPC High Speed and her supervisor SGT Squared Away, into my office. When I pulled out a 4856, SPC High Speed about broke out in tears. SGT Squared Away immediately jumped to her defense and swore he would take this counseling to the old man!

That's fine I said. The purpose of the counseling was because SPC High Speed was observed taking the initiative to PMCS another team's vehicle because that team's driver was taken to the hospital by his TM LDR. SPC High Speed then notified SFC Full of Bluster of a safety concern in his Motor Pool. The 4856 closed with "SPC High Speed actions reflected well upon her, her supervisor and the unit." I then informed SGT Squared Away that he was more than welcome to take the 4856 to the old man.

True, the 4856 is a tool to hold Soldiers accountable but, it also let's them know they're on the right track. SPC High Speed's actions though not worthy of an award sure as hell warranted recognition as was SGT Squared Away who always emphasized team work and initiative.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:49 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:49:21 -0400

I gave an unlimited supply of them, in my printer. Any enlisted Soldier has to receive a minimum of 4 per year. Leaders must counsel, in writing, for both good and bad. The problem I keep running across is that folks believe verbal counseling is good enough. "Virtual" counseling doesn't count. If it is not on paper, it may as well have never happened.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made May 11 at 2016 11:50 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Wed, 11 May 2016 11:50:43 -0400

Counseling happens every day, if the leadership is doing it right. I view a 4856 as the follow up to the verbal counseling,it's a check and balance that what was intended to be said was, and what was received, was.

No different then then following up a phone call or face to face discussion with an email that summarises the points made, actions agreed upon. It gives both parties in the communication a chance to review what they said, or what they heard and seek clarification if needed.
The preformatted 4856 counseling session is only useful for a specific counseling need, basically a written statement of standards met or not, actions required or failed to be done.
Or perhaps a positive / negitive performanced based single event counseling , as a "log" for use later in writing a award, evaluation, or other action.

Response by MAJ L. Nicholas Smith made May 11 at 2016 12:02 PM

MAJ L. Nicholas Smith — Wed, 11 May 2016 12:02:55 -0400

I think this depends on the culture of the organization and the personal habits or the one using the forms. I used them more as developmental tools vs. building a record. The 4856 is a valuable tool for performance and event oriented counseling to establish goals, review progress, and maintain a record of results. By keeping these records, the NCOER/OER and/or award will pretty much write itself. I did use it to cover myself when I suspected or knew I had someone who would...make my life interesting but often this was more event oriented.
I began my service in a real paperless Army meaning sometimes people took a walk to the tree line ( area J at Ft. Bragg) or the squad pressured proper behavior/performance in young troopers. These examples may sounds rough to some, but what it did do was address issues and problems without damaging their career. Don't get me wrong, there is a time and place for documentation. Like anything else, it can be taken too far where it promotes a zero tolerance environment for honest mistakes.

Response by SGT Casey Lovell made May 11 at 2016 12:22 PM

SGT Casey Lovell — Wed, 11 May 2016 12:22:59 -0400

Using them? Yes.
Effectively? No.

To keep it short - Emphasis has been take from the "accurate reporting" section, more often than not. Leaders think that conversations between involved parties are the inevitable solution, so they find the documentation unnecessary or bothersome... sooooo they plug in a template.

Sans lacking any real or accurate information regarding the Soldier (clerical issues WILL screw you if the issue becomes larger), this lack of action has eliminated any ability we might have had to track the disciplinary issues of the Soldier. I can pull a packet, but if it hasn't already garnered the attention of JAG, it's likely going to be filled with 4856s that look exactly the same, but with different dates. I can't gauge progress, I can't recommend the next step and I can't accurately educate myself on the specifics of the situation.

This problem isn't limited to the 4856. I've watched Awards go out in ceremony with blatant grammar issues that one glance would have resolved.

Response by SFC Gary Edwards made May 11 at 2016 12:24 PM

SFC Gary Edwards — Wed, 11 May 2016 12:24:48 -0400

I once had a soldier who had some financial problems. Over the course of our time at Fort Riley, I was determined to help him with his debt problems. The 1st. Counseling involved him acknowledging he had a debt problem and wanted help. I had him enroll in the debt management program that ACS/AER had at the time. Subsequent counseling sessions documented his attendance and progress. This young soldier eventually was able to break the cycle of payday loans and become self sufficient. These counselings were never used as a punishment tool or in any other negative fashion. I used them to document our discussions, expectations, his feelings, his progress and attendance to his classes which I made mandatory based on his desire to get help. Later the soldier got into some unrelated trouble and the CSM wanted to see any & every counseling the soldier ever received. He believed that if soldiers were properly guided through counseling they'd have less trouble. The CSM was less inclined to dispense discipline on a soldier who wasn't counseled but instead reprimand that soldiers leader. Nevertheless, this young sergeants counselings were all there. The positive along with the neutral and negative. So the CSM calls me and says he wants to talk to me. I visit the CSM at his office and he has nothing but praise for me. In all his years the only thing nearly all NCO's used it for were negative counselings. That was a little over 25 years ago and I wonder today if Sgt. K stayed out of financial trouble.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 1:04 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 13:04:09 -0400

In my opinion (sorry) the DA4856 is being used as a "rear end protector" only. Professional growth/performance type of counseling (when received) have become a "check the box'" type of session. Leaders are taking more time to document a soldiers deficiency instead of recognizing performance/potential and developing the generation of the Army.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 1:23 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 13:23:03 -0400

Heres the truth, some do the right thing, some don't. My expereience is everyone runs around and scrambles when IG does an inspection, or the chain wants to punish someone, but still have yet to see a positive counceling

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 3:39 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 15:39:02 -0400

Yes because it is a document of record in regards to tracking patterns of misconduct for UCMJ action and as a tool to inform Soldiers of what they need to correct or improve on.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 4:46 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 16:46:13 -0400

I'm a big fan of positive 4856s. My NCO's don't have any issues doing the quarterly or disciplinary counseling but they always forget that a Soldier can be counseled for positive things too. We use the positive counseling's as more ammunition when we submit awards or even as grounds to release a Soldier early for the day for all their hard work.. Plus the Soldiers get a sense of pride when they get the pat on the back and it helps to give a full perspective in a counseling packet.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 4:52 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 16:52:49 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member, great question and in my opinion the 4856 is being used but primarily only by NCO's and not as often as it should be. Soldiers receive their fair share of verbal counselings and on the spot corrections and although this isn't a negative process, but these methods should be used on a case by case basis and not be the norm. Officers on the other hand, receive verbal counselings more than any other form of mentorship or corrective action. In my opinion, I'd say that 3 out of every 10 Officers actually receive their quarterly counseling and support form review. This is a problem.

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made May 11 at 2016 5:16 PM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Wed, 11 May 2016 17:16:21 -0400

Are they being used to better Soldiers: no
To hold them accountable: sometimes.

To many SNCOs of the current army think that ALL counseling must be on a 4856; and don't seem to remember 22-100 under the oak tree counseling. Soldiers react better to face to face interaction that isn't labeled "counseling" I capture these on 4856s at the end of the month or quarter but I don't feel enslaved to it. I supervise over a dozen people and counsel and mentor more. If I wrote all that down that would be all I do; and has been on occasion. I don't stress about it anymore.

If there's a reason to document a counseling or expectation I make sure it gets captured. But when I spend 15-30 minutes talking to a soldier; then the next one; then pissing on some fire that popped up: I don't lose sleep over not writing every word of counseling,coaching or mentoring I do each day. Because I'm human.
My soldiers still achieve, complete mission, and are competitive for semi and fully centralized promotions so maybe the world doesn't fall into choas if you don't document every word on a 4856z

Response by CW4 Angel C. made May 11 at 2016 6:00 PM

CW4 Angel C. — Wed, 11 May 2016 18:00:46 -0400

They are surely still being used. If used timely they can serve as a more stern warning than just a verbal. Also provides a black and white plan of improvement to those needing it. One thing I like about the new 4856 is that it has a block for what the leader actions will be. I lost all respect for any supervisor stating the Soldier's deficiencies without providing the Soldier a plan of action or leader actions for guiding the Soldier to the desired goal!

Response by LTC Joseph George made May 11 at 2016 6:16 PM

LTC Joseph George — Wed, 11 May 2016 18:16:33 -0400

This article indicates no. http://www.military.com/daily-news/2016/05/11/16-west-point-cadets-raised-fist-photo-wont-be-punished.html?ESRC=army-a_160511.nl

16 West Point Cadets in Raised-Fist Photo Won't Be Punished

The decision, days before they are due to graduate, found they didn't violate military rules limiting political activity.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2016 11:14 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 11 May 2016 23:14:50 -0400

Yes. I believe it is a valuable tool. It defines your expectations and your performance if it is done right. I am about to move from being a Infantry PL to a Mortar Platoon PL. Word has it that they found out that I am by the book. A friend of mine was telling me that they were borderline dreading my arrival due to this. But it has to be done. Soldiers are expected to perform to a standard. They have to be given a measure and know how they meet these expectations. I have seen units where they don't have any clear defined standards. I am sure some of them operate fine but then some are not. It is were to find a bad unit doing the right thing. Now holding yourself and those accountable is something that can be difficult. You never want to tell your boss you want to counseled. If they are not doing it already they might not even know how to do it properly. I know that is not an excuse but that is a difficult situation. I recall when I going to my SGT board I was supposed to have my counseling packet with me containing my previous year of counselings. So I ended up signing a years worth of counselings in one day. We were deployed for a good portion of it and were not really able to do counseling but there was time catch up that wasn't utilized. After experiencing this I train my best to set the standard. I want to show them what I expect of my soldiers for when they counsel their subordinates.

Response by SGT Ivory Brown made May 23 at 2016 11:27 AM

SGT Ivory Brown — Mon, 23 May 2016 11:27:41 -0400

When I was in i used a 4856 for a job well done as well. This helpd me to write a pcs or ets award.