Are Soldiers coming from IET not meeting the standard, or is leadership forgetting the very roots that started their career?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 22:07:25 -0400

Last week, I was at MEDCOM talking with an old Commander. He was a great but very long winded Commander, lol. At the end of our conversation, he told me to follow him and he lead me to meet CSM Brock (MEDCOM CSM, for those of you who may be unaware). We met and through conversation she asked me that very question. So, I will leave it up to you. What is your opinion?

I think that everyone started somewhere, no one came into the Army at the maturity level that a seasoned Soldier has. So why expect someone to be at that level if they clearly do not have the life experience. That will come, some may take longer than others though.

Do you think that the new Soldier measures to the standard or not, why?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2014 10:14 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 28 Apr 2014 22:14:23 -0400

Well I remember sitting in a briefing with LTG Hertling when he was the USAREUR commander. He had just came from being the TRADOC CG. A soldier asked him the exact question of why we get so many Soldiers from training that fail either height and weight or PT. He tossed out some percentage numbers that would make us shut our mouths quickly. I don't remember the exact numbers but it was something like this: 5% of IET Soldiers will be sent to their first units with mildly sub standard PT or HT/WT failure however the force is sending 25% sub standard achievers to TRADOC to be instructors. Makes us really need to take a look at what we are doing and worry less about what "they" are doing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2014 10:18 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 29 Apr 2014 22:18:39 -0400

As an instructor the biggest problem is that your hands are tied. If you see a soldier that isn't quite ready yet they meet the requirements set forth in the course than there is nothing you can do about it. Also, it seems to me that it is all a numbers game. All of the leadership want good pass rates and graduation numbers. Attrition in their eyes is bad regardless if it is necessary to put out the best Soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 7:46 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 07:46:04 -0400

They are absolutely NOT meeting the standard. My response to this may seem a bit to aggressive, but I've recently had a lot of new soldiers join the section that I run, and I'm not happy. What would make a new soldier think that it's OK to send me a text message with a smiley face? What would make a new soldier, meeting their new NCO for the first time, ask about how to get a profile? What, in the name of all that is holy, would make a brand new soldier think that they could bring their spouse and child to off-site, team building training? I remember getting to my first duty station, nervous as hell, and making sure not to do ANYTHING that might even be construed as remotely wrong. You're not wearing your ID tags because it makes your chest break out? Well by all means then... Anyway, I take it all in stride. I react appropriately. I counsel, coach , and mentor. But inside....in my head...I want to hulk smash the life out of the next person to ask me a ridiculous question.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 8:26 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 08:26:47 -0400

I used to think the same way, look down upon the drill sergeants, PSGs, and instructors until I became an AIT PSG at FT Lee. There are a lot of great platoon sergeants and instructors here because truthfully it takes an amazing NCO to deal with our everyday battle rhythm. OUR HANDS ARE TIED!!! We work for them, they are told this at every briefing by higher command. We get anywhere from 200-600 new QM warriors every weekend, more than half of them in my opinion are not good Soldiers. They are very disrespectful, mouthy, lazy, and not afraid to tell you what they are NOT going to do. Most pass along with a million negative verbal/written counseling statements. As far as PT tests, they take one every week until they pass it. We do chapter a lot of Soldiers for PT and more serious offenses and some even Medically Retire after BCT. Yes you read that correctly, Medical Retirement with all benefits...

Response by SFC William Swartz Jr made May 1 at 2014 8:44 AM

SFC William Swartz Jr — Thu, 01 May 2014 08:44:36 -0400

Part of the problem began when they lowered the standards of the APFT during IET, whereas the Army standard of course is 60-60-60, IET standard is 50-50-50..when you set up a different standard, that is what some people believe is the standard. Having served as an instructor within the Armor School for both 19kOSUT and Armor BOLC, I take umbrage with the statistics that SFC(P) Gilley provided from LTG Hertling (not you yourself big SFC!) I doubt very seriously that the number is 25%. But then again, I do know that TRADOC, at least the MCoE anyways, will hijack personnel to try and beef up their numbers as far as instructors go. Case in point, me, I left TRADOC in 2010 from Ft. Knox after almost 4 years and went to Kuwait for a 1-year tour/deployment and was supposed to return to 3rd ABCT, 3rd ID at Ft. Benning, but upon inprocessing, I was redirected to TRADOC, now, I had a P2 where I no longer could run due to my knees, and I raised this as an objection to both the personnel at the assignments section and to the unit when I was to be assigned as a SR Instructor at ABOLC. It didn't matter, I tried to point out to anyone and everyone that it would look badly when conducting PRT that when it came time to run with the new LTs that SFC Swartz wouldn't be running with them and how it would appear. I know that there were more than a few NCOs in the same situation due to injuries sustained in combat or just due to health issues, but it seemed no one cared. I know to a man/woman that we had the knowledge to impart to these new LTs, and we did, but it still kind of bothered me that while none of the LTs under my tutelage said anything about it, that I could no longer run with them and it just appeared badly. So while I can only speak for what I saw at both FT. Knox for 4 years and Ft. Benning for 2 1/2, I would suggest that TRADOC do a better job of screening the individuals they assign to these critical positions rather than make blanket statements like over 25% are ate-up. But, these were merely the rambling thoughts of a retiree...."TREAT 'EM ROUGH!!"

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 1:56 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 13:56:42 -0400

First thing they need to do is make all AIT leadership structure the same. In 88M Its only SFC and SSG as the PSG. I think they need to include SGTs in a team/squad leader role. During my 2 years it was just my battle buddy and I, both SFC. I often told the privates that when they report to their units you just do go up to your PSG with your problems. You will have a SGT and/or SSG for that. Also the standards for these IET and AIT Soldiers are terrible. The 50/50/50 points on BCT APFT is terrible. Why do they get to score that? If you cant meet the standard you shouldnt be allowed to advance to AIT. I had to meet the regular APFT standards as a trainee.
I also think they should have no privledges until they graduate AIT. They are in training, transforming a civilian to a Soldier, they need to be 100% focused on that and not their Iphones, Ipods, off post or post pass, and the internet. I was OSUT 13B and we didnt get any passes for 13 weeks and only had a a couple of pay phones on the pad to call home and we all made it through. I also agree SSG Lee, our hands are tied. Instead of a PSG i usually felt like i was the privates personal assistant.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2014 8:22 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 May 2014 20:22:50 -0400

I doubt they do. Part of the reason is the kids today aren't as physically active as we probably were at 17-19 or in general. They think working out consists of playing call of duty. When I was younger my parents had me out of the house until the street lights came on. Another issue is the PRT....it sucks. However it's great for the kids that never ran a day in their lives prior to joining. I used to do PT with my future soldiers and it was the PT I did in basic. They would come back from training and tell me my PT was harder. I also think there is an entitlement issue...they all think they are special. I wish they'd bring back BDUs and black boots and teach the new soldiers how to iron and shine...gives more appreciation for the uniform. I could keep going on on this one so I'm going to stop myself.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 2 at 2014 12:09 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 02 May 2014 12:09:35 -0400

NO!!!! A large percentage of Soldiers coming out of IET are NOT meeting the standard or they are skirting the fence when it comes to passing or failing.
The problem in my opinion has nothing to do with leadership today. I don't blame the Drill Sergeants or TRADOC Leadership for the fact that a Soldier shows up at my unit soggy around the mid section or unable to take and pass an APFT.
I blame that Soldiers' parents or guardians who raised them. They failed the Soldier in the earlier stages of life by not kicking them out of the house and making them play outside with friends as opposed to letting them sit on their asses playing Call of Duty on their PS or Xbox.
They didn't teach their Soldier that shoveling chips and twinkies into their gullets was NOT ok. Basic life disciplines are NOT being taught by parents / guardians and the result is that we have young men and women who join our ranks and cannot meet the standards we set. The sad part is that our standards today are not very tough to meet. Push ups, sit ups and a 2 mile run are not difficult if a Soldier new to the military was semi-active prior to coming in. Unfortunately that's not the case, but that is not the fault of any DS or 1st line leader or 1SG or Commander.
Even if as an NCO I could go back to the old way of dropping a Soldier for 50 push ups, that won't help if the Soldier lacks discipline and is unmotivated or unwilling to meet the standards. We can mentor and we can train, but if the Soldier wasn't taught life skills and disciplines by their parents then it's a battle we won't win and a discharge is in order. There are young adults who want to join who CAN meet the standards. Why not discharge the ones who can't and make room for the ones who can?

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2014 11:09 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 03 May 2014 11:09:44 -0400

This post hits home. Hearing all of this made me want to help the new recruits even more. I help out new recruits in the Future Soldier Training program so I can personally vouch for the "xbox generation". Its a sad day when I realize the standards are just not what they used to be.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 1:06 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:06:06 -0500

Hard to say but a boot straight out of training can come with extra baggage. My honest and most unbiased observation is that I have seen with each Soldier received straight from AIT, a lessening degree in respect and professional discipline. Going through ALC I learned that now AIT is joint training as opposed to over 10 years ago when I went through. I can only assume that a byproduct of this merge is a general influence of Soldiers getting away with more due to standards of discipline having to be lightened to a degree for accomodation of softer branches (Air Force, Navy). At the same, when I actively enforce discipline that I came up learning as acceptable forms of discipline (push ups, knife hand) I have been met with resistance from the Soldier and an emotionally charged reaction (loss of military bearing). My thought is that if not knipped in the butt at the receiving unit, it can lead to a future of problems where the Soldier transitions into a leadership role and carries with them the bad habits that were percieved acceptable only making the state of discipline worse.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2015 1:18 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 19 Feb 2015 13:18:04 -0500

And with that comes the higher leaders needing to support the junior NCOs (SGT & SSG) when it finally comes to pass that you simply need to DX a bad apple. It requires so much synchrony and like mindedness from each influential party (CSM, 1SG) Down to the direct leader to agree and make it a common goal to reduce the numbers of bad troops. All the same, ONE member can say or do the wrong thing ONE time and next thing you know legal begal has found a loophole to shoot down the action that is clearly the right step for the Soldier and Army. (Shrugging shoulders) It leads to an experienced NCO to simply give up because its too much of a waste of time and refocusing their energy to more important things at hand. Soldier gets a free pass/get out of jail free card. NCo gets a migraine headache.