Are soldiers losing their military bearing?

2015-10-04T04:45:06-04:00

Are Soldiers losing their military bearing and feeling more sense of entitlement?

Are we failing to enforce and demonstrate place & position?

Response by TSgt David L. made Oct 4 at 2015 5:01 AM

2015-10-04T05:01:56-04:00

I think society in general has gone towards the "entitlement" attitude. Troops that used to do the right thing and perform their duty as expected now have to be ASKED to comply. I've tried to raise my sons to do the right thing but in a peer based environment they would probably follow the lead of others and wait to be asked to do something. I hope I'm wrong as they both want to join the military.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:05 AM

2015-10-04T05:05:35-04:00

Army is getting too soft.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:14 AM

2015-10-04T05:14:36-04:00

What do you think are some solutions to this problem?

My answer is every NCO simply enforce the standards of the United States Army and thier Units, 100% of the time.

Soldiers see the inconsistency and it gives them more reason to grow in the Army that way.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:31 AM

2015-10-04T05:31:07-04:00

It appears Soldiers are losing their bearing because of the type of Soldiers we are bringing in to the force today. This younger generation was raised with parents who hovered over them in an overly protective mode. Children were told it was ok to challenge authority figures if they felt they were being abused. This was done with the the best of intentions but it did not foster thenrightntype of challenges. What one considers abuse, another may consider it just being enforcement. Children are given participation trophies or medals and many events don't have winners and losers. This fostered the mentality that you should get rewarded for basically just showing up. It didn't matter how little or how much effort you have, you all got the same reward so then why bother going above and beyond? So now we have Soldiers that believe they can challenge EVERY order given, not just the immoral or illegal ones. They feel they deserve recognition for doing their job. If my SGT passes an inspection for her meal card program, then she gets "good job" from me. That's it. No award should be given because it IS her job to pass an inspection. Now, if she had inherited a program where the last inspection had been "red" and this time it was "outstanding", then maybe I could see an award being given. I'm all about recognizing Soldiers for deserving acts, but not for just doing your job. I mean seriously, if a Soldier failed the APFT and then passes the next one, do they deserve to be rewarded for that?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:35 AM

2015-10-04T05:35:33-04:00

I will earn everything I can legitimately... The Army doesn't owe me anything... I owe the Army the dedication that I promised when I signed my contracts for service and those for continued service each time I reenlisted... That's the reality... These fictions of paid dues, and entitlements are not suppose to be the take over. Our respects due, are in the ranks and positions that we hold...

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:36 AM

2015-10-04T05:36:02-04:00

Yes I do believe the entitlement mindset has start to plague the ranks. As the "X" generation shift into leadership roles they tend to embrace that entitlement position overlooking place and position.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Oct 4 at 2015 5:56 AM

2015-10-04T05:56:12-04:00

Yes they are, and the Army is getting too soft.

Response by SFC Joe S. Davis Jr., MSM, DSL made Oct 4 at 2015 7:25 AM

2015-10-04T07:25:07-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member great topic, its a different era and the "entitlement" attitude is in full effect in my opinion. I think ALL need to appreciate the sacrifice of Duty Country Honor a lot more in todays modern military. Just EARN IT, The Movie PVT Ryan says it all:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZ4Ycgnsuwk

Prvt ryan "earn this"

Response by SFC A.M. Drake made Oct 4 at 2015 8:04 AM

2015-10-04T08:04:20-04:00

Interesting topic. I believe that's a yes on both. If you try to enforce the standard then you maybe considered toxic or overbearing. If those soldiers under your leadership sense that something is amiss then they will continue with what they think is right. I'm really looking for some good solutions on this one. I just think that America as a whole is on the moral decline. What was considered right when I first entered the service is now considered wrong. Just as the Roman Empire went; I'm afraid America is heading in the same direction.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Oct 4 at 2015 8:07 AM

2015-10-04T08:07:05-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member Great question SSG Carter. I first noticed discipline problems in lower enlisted when I was a 1SG in 2007. IMO when the promotion points dropped, there were a lot of NCOs that got promoted to quickly or shouldn't have been promoted at all. There were, and probably still are, NCOs that didn't have the intestinal fortitude to make corrections on Soldiers because either A) they were friends with said Soldier or B) they didn't have the balls to make corrections. I saw it a ton of times. I lost count of how many times I had to correct a Soldier and then an NCO because they wouldn't do their job. Another factor in all of this was the Army granting waivers for Soldiers that prior to GWOT would not have been allowed to enlist. Lots of malcontents came in in the mid 00s.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 9:55 AM

2015-10-04T09:55:03-04:00

Can you be more clear by what you mean by entitlement, I am not trying g to be cynical but in many cases one simple word can make a big difference if meaning.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 9:56 AM

2015-10-04T09:56:42-04:00

I believe Soldiers are a product of their leadership. One NCO can't enforce the standard; it has to be a team effort by a cohesive NCO team.

I don't believe it has anything to do with the type of people coming into the Army. I was pretty messed up coming in, but I had leaders that took me under their wing and invested in me. Looking back on those leaders actually stirs up emotions for me, because they cared.

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Oct 4 at 2015 10:16 AM

2015-10-04T10:16:54-04:00

I believe the issue was the same after every long period of war. I joined after Vietnam, same was said back then. There needs to be a balance in deployments, training, and garrison. Like it or not millennial are now the largest group in the workforce.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 10:39 AM

2015-10-04T10:39:46-04:00

Unfortunately, the entitlement phase is a product of our society. It is challenging to deal with, but as leaders we need to adapt and overcome. I think one of the biggest issues right now is that leaders (new and old) have lost touch with leading by example. Too many leaders pick and choose what they want to enforce, as well as what they want to follow themselves. I think the 14+ years of war, and little Garrison focused mentality has a lot to do with that. Also, from what I've noticed is we have too many NCO's that are stuck in "the army has gotten too soft, or the old army was" phase. If you find yourself constantly saying that then you are part of the problem. As an NCO, you have to be resilient and have the ability to adapt. Today's enlisted Soldiers are more educated, raised differently then the army of 20 years ago, and do not know what the "old Army" was like. I have had many problem Soldiers and have found ways to make them better Soldiers or professionally showed them to the door without having to use the old tactics of LET ME SMOKE HIM, Ya that'll teach him right. Lead, counsel, mentor, and truly be there to know and understand your Soldiers and you will find a lot of fully capable and motivated Soldiers. Over the last 5-6 years, I have noticed most of the Soldiers with continuous problems USUALLY have that first line supervisor who has a lot of problems themselves, both (career and personal). I personally do not like the way things are headed, but as an NCO it is our job to make sure we play with the cards we are dealt. I don't think things will change anytime soon because of our society as a whole unfortunately..

Response by CPT Richard Riley made Oct 4 at 2015 10:45 AM

2015-10-04T10:45:58-04:00

Sadly, there is not just one accurate answer to this dilemma. Society has an influence on military life as does the younger generation of troops cycling into our forces. Tried and true common sense lessons my grandparents taught and guided me with have been muted by current day, fast paced, immediate expected results lessons. To say that all newer generation individuals adopt this way of thinking is unfair and inaccurate, but so many are surrounded by this influence every waking moment of their lives and that is a tremendous influence to overcome.
To call it a failure may be harsh, but we first have to find a way to make it attainable.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 10:46 AM

2015-10-04T10:46:21-04:00

We promoted way to fast in the Army. So some of our leaders (NCOs) backbone are weak or contaminated. As a result we have NCO fraternizing with Soldiers, being friends, but most of all don't have a clue about being a NCO because their mentor was rapidly promoted and he/she doesn't have a clue on being a NCO. Therefore the is the result.

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Oct 4 at 2015 11:19 AM

2015-10-04T11:19:43-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member No they are not losing their Military Bearing. Do they have sense of entitlement? Probably some... but that is societies fault as much as any soldiers. If you keep hearing that a soldier or service member should get "this or that"... It soon becomes the mind set and thought that that is an entitlement.

I would submit the more important question to ponder on the "military bearing" issue is that are we as leaders "role modeling"? From my perspective traveling around I'd have to say we are "collectively" in need of some help and some reinforcement training in showing soldiers "what right looks like"... We should be a little more humble and a little less egotistic.

In 30+ years of service... Soldiers and Civilians tend to take on and display those traits the see from their leaders... right and wrong! I'd also submit that a tactful "on the spot corrections" work wonders not only on the person... but those around. The catch is the Soldiers have to see it "up" not simply "down".

I once had a SFC, when I was a SGT, tell me to "correct down... not up"... the 1SG heard him say that... and what 1SG Nelson did was show everyone around that that was "the wrong damn answer"... and right, wrong, or indifferent... he did it in front of everyone. That sent a message that was loud an clear!

My 2 cents

Response by SSG Kevin McCulley made Oct 4 at 2015 11:42 AM

2015-10-04T11:42:42-04:00

Right before I retired it was considered offensive to address a private as a private without including their last name... Junior Enlisted troops know that, much like their teachers in highschool, they can destroy your career with a word and officers will wont fight for NCOs. Thus, the power dynamic has shifted the other way round.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 11:58 AM

2015-10-04T11:58:29-04:00

Yes Soldiers are losing their military bearing! And there is a lost of discipline from all the ranks. What i have seen is that Leaders want to be their Soldiers Friends instead of their Leader! Having a good work environment is great and as a leader you should be able to house that type of environment but not at the cost of discipline.

Response by SFC Michael Seiber made Oct 4 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-10-04T12:17:17-04:00

Yes they are. Soldiers these days have a sense of entitlement. It's this generation.
Trying to resolve this is difficult due to the Army "tying our hands" when it comes to dicipline. Some leaders are afraid to say anything to fix the situation or enforce the standard for fear of retaliation.

I'm not playing that game anymore. As a leader that has a great 1SG who does not tolerate this makes life much easier when dealing with Soldiers like this.
Know your rights and "show your teeth" when it comes to Soldiers like this. They'll learn one way or the other. Keep counseling them too.
If they have an issue, then do the best you can to remove the individual from our ranks. It's too easy now that the Army is downsizing.
Plus, it sends a msg to the other Soldiers.
I hope this helps.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 12:30 PM

2015-10-04T12:30:29-04:00

It's hard to say. It could be that you simply notice more stuff as you make your way up in the ranks.

At the same time, it's a new Army, and Soldiers get liberties sooner than we used to get in the day.

Response by PV2 Scott Goodpasture made Oct 4 at 2015 1:22 PM

2015-10-04T13:22:36-04:00

Hell the whole country has lost its bearing. I work in the electrical field as a civilian and have for about 20 years. This new generation of apprentices is the most worthless, lazy and whiney bunch of shittards that ever polluted the gene pool

Response by CPL Timothy Lane made Oct 4 at 2015 1:23 PM

2015-10-04T13:23:29-04:00

Leaders ask for sacrifice of others. But they reap rewards. Leaders will not be there after soldiers career ending injury .

Response by COL Ted Mc made Oct 4 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-10-04T13:29:30-04:00

Staff; I believe that they are.

I also believe that the fastest solution to the problem is for a few more officers to start saying "Sergeant, Get a grip on those people." and then leave the NCOs to get on with their jobs (which also means supporting the NCOs' decisions as well as "guiding them" (read as "cutting them a new one in private") if the decisions aren't correct).

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-10-04T13:36:05-04:00

Unfortunately, much of the self discipline that was ingrained in earlier generations is sadly lacking in most of today's generation. Political correctness has cost us- stop beating around the bush and come right out and say it when someone has messed up or done a wonderful job. Feelings get hurt and someone cries "foul".

Response by SSG Joe Ann Bess made Oct 4 at 2015 1:41 PM

2015-10-04T13:41:45-04:00

Yes we are.

Response by MSgt Erik Copp made Oct 4 at 2015 3:03 PM

2015-10-04T15:03:15-04:00

Yes and yes

Response by LTC Stephen F. made Oct 4 at 2015 3:11 PM

2015-10-04T15:11:46-04:00

In general, I do not believe that U.S. Army Soldiers are losing their military bearing 1LT Private RallyPoint Member. Most Soldiers have displayed military bearing though most of their military service to this nation. In and out of uniform Soldiers display military bearing because we are trained to do so and because we are proud of our service to the USA.
There are some individual Soldiers who do not display military bearing and lack discipline in general.
These Soldiers are rare.
In some cases units lack military bearing and military discipline in other areas. In those cases, the fault generally lies with leadership both NCO and Commissioned Officers. That is sign of systemic problem which needs to dealt with accordingly through counseling, bringing in good leaders, removing bad leaders with appropriate comments on efficiency reports [NCOER, OER], and reassignment of the junior soldiers only if necessary.
Entitlement is another matter. Soldiers should feel entitled to the honor of honorable military service; the benefits associated with military service including the facilities which are located on base; and the privileges including discounts based on military service which are provided by off-post merchants and corporations including restaurants, sporting facilities, theme parks and travel.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-10-04T15:14:05-04:00

SSG Tyshaun Carter,
We as leaders are failing to teach, enforce, and demonstrate proper military bearing. I would never have been corrected by a Master Sergeant when I was coming up. Someone else would have corrected me first. I never even talked to my First Sergeant, except on rare occasions, when responding to his question. As a matter of fact, I only spoke to a Sergeant First Class when spoken to. The only NCOs I dealt with were Staff Sergeants and Sergeants. Today, I have observed that Soldiers are much bolder (unprofessional) than when I was coming up through the ranks.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-10-04T15:16:52-04:00

Everyone always seems so quick to blame it on some entitled generation rather than to look in the mirror.

Is today's junior enlisted force the same as it was 10-20 years ago? Hell no!

Our leaders need to evolve and learn how to connect with this generation, discipline them, and motivate them. Stop trying the same thing that worked 15 years ago and step up to the plate and lead your troops.

I think we have untapped potential in the force because leaders haven't learned how to adapt. Today's junior enlisted members joined our military with the knowledge that we have been at war for 10+ years. I don't think their commitment is the issue.

The failure or success of our force rests with our leaders abilities to evolve.

I think the real is question is--are you up for the challenge?

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Oct 4 at 2015 3:25 PM

2015-10-04T15:25:29-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member Great question. Prior to retirement, I noted a change in attitude among some younger Soldiers. In my experience, it was dealt with quickly by NCOs enforcing the standard. Mostly I noted what I referred to as the generation Y ers. You provide direction as an NCO or Officer, then PVT Snuffy responds with, "but why Sergeant?" Somehow, because an NCO, SNCO, Warrant Officer, or other Commissioned Officer directed them to do something was not enough. I tended to take a moment to impart the education which was passed on to me with regards to bearing, discipline, NCO support channel, and chain of command. This turning negative behavior into a train, teach, and mentor moment. Never, did I answer their question on why. There times because of mission requirements this is not possible. I hope and pray for those of you still actively serving this training happens before necessity, for then it's too late.

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Oct 4 at 2015 4:18 PM

2015-10-04T16:18:41-04:00

It may interfere with them taking selfies in many cases.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:17 PM

2015-10-04T17:17:08-04:00

Yes...see my latest post.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 5:55 PM

2015-10-04T17:55:20-04:00

We don't see the same structured approach to instilling standards in today's military, and there is an increase in NCOs who came from this decreased buy into professionalism that are refusing to confront the issues in an effort to strengthen their social relationships with those who are failing to meet standards. The cycle will continue until we can not only provide strong mentors to junior NCOs but also motivate them to seek these mentors out.

In an age where we put personnel in for quarterly awards simply because we have to, it's hard to expect anything more than mediocrity across the ranks. While I can appreciate the "Culture of Respect" the Air Force has adopted, it's now time to switch gears, go back to basics, and begin a "Culture of Accountability". You know the standards, now enforce them, and expect them to be enforced on you.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Oct 4 at 2015 9:09 PM

2015-10-04T21:09:12-04:00

The millennials that are joining the armed forces today are doing so to avoid the authority their parents are bringing to bear. Boy are they in for a surprise. But I can't be sure of that. When my son was in Basic in Columbia, SC we drove up to visit him mid-way through. The barracks were sloppy, "gig lines" were apparently not taught (or enforced) and I never witnessed a DI telling a recruit to drop and "Give me 50". My son hadn't even SHAVED that day! Are you kidding me? Is this the "New" ARMY? That was over 20 years ago, I'll bet it's worse now!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2015 10:29 PM

2015-10-04T22:29:40-04:00

Nope...you lead the Soldiers you expect to have. Set the standard and expectation immediately and don't waiver. Respect garners respect.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Oct 5 at 2015 9:58 AM

2015-10-05T09:58:29-04:00

In the 90's the Army was going through it's drawdown from Desert Storm. What makes then different than now, isn't the Soldier itself, but how things were done back then to the Soldiers. SNCO's were feared. Not in a negative way, but in more of a respect factor. You knew to make it, you were going to work your ass off. Hell SGT was bad enough! Didn't always work and some got through, but for the most part the NCO Corps was solid. You also had a focus on basic Soldiering. D&C, giving proper PT, respects to others and the flag, room and regular uniform inspections, boots had to be shined, haircuts. Simple stuff back then that pissed everyone off, but to mention it today would bring scorn and headaches. Everyone wants to talk about preparing for war or deployment (ISIS doesn't march, why should we...wrong answer), and it's VERY needed, BUT basic Soldiering skills should go hand in hand. It gives a certain level of basic discipline to each troop, and while upsetting them, gives each a competitive edge against the other. When was the last time a formation was moved from point to point in cadence? The last time a counter column was called? I know that uniforms aren't to be pressed or boots shined, but uniform inspections? Regular and irregular room inspections? Health & Welfare's? I believe if the Army went back to stressing the basics of Soldiering along with battle tasks, we'll see a different type of Soldier. What we cannot continue and are continuing, is constant redundant change where a standard on Monday is no longer the standard by Tuesday morning. Soldiers require a certain level of programming; a safety net they can fall back on to guide them. Having a new reg every two days isn't going to help. The idea of going back to some of the basic training standards of before is good. But this whole get a patch at the end of a cycle is another "everyone wins", and is wrong.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 11:54 AM

2015-10-05T11:54:46-04:00

This is why! Why are we focusing on Russia when ISIS beheads innocent
people? So many questions to the motives of our CIC.

– First published … October 04, 2015 –

Russian fighter jets have attacked 10 Islamic State targets in Syria in their latest airstrikes, destroying arms depots, training centers and infrastructure, Defense Ministry says. In the last 24 hours, Russian military aircraft have performed 20 sorties.

Armored Sukhoi Su-25 ground-support fighter jets have attacked a jihadist training center in Idlib province, also destroying a workshop producing suicide belts, according to the newly-released Defense Ministry report.

Three depots with munitions, arms and material assets have been eliminated with pinpoint strikes. As a result of direct hits from KAB-500 air bombs, installations and munitions have been taken out.

Sukhoi Su-24M and Su-34 bombers inflicted airstrikes on eight terrorist installations near Jisr al-Shughur in Idlib province, the ministry said.

http://www.veteranstoday.com/2015/10/04/russian-airstrikes-continue-to-pound-terrorist-targets-video-footage/

Russian airstrikes continue to pound terrorist targets - video footage

Jim W. Dean - Russia continues to roll out its bombing campaign, putting on display for us all the systematic destruction of terrorist infrastructure prior to a ground offensive by the Syrian army.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 12:00 PM

2015-10-05T12:00:58-04:00

Yes and no SSG Carter. I can only speak from my active duty years that ended in the mid 1990’s, and what I read here. I am currently far removed from my Army roots and enjoy this forum to see a bit of what’s happening. It’s been over 30 years since I’ve been in Graf.

Soldiers having a sense of entitlement? Probably, but isn’t all our society expecting more of everything.

Losing their military bearing? No more or less than in past times. When I first shipped into Germany I immediately shipped out to Graf for training: where in an open bay barracks I saw a fellow soldier beat within an inch of his life for razzing a fellow soldier for his snoring. No one lifted a hand. It taught me to keep my mouth shut and let people work out their own problems; a good life lesson.

I could tell more stories about soldiers losing it but I won’t; the point is that there is good and bad with us every day. We just work with it best we can… and don’t lose faith. As mid-level and senior NCO’s we have a responsibility to keep training our junior enlisted and officers the best we can.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 12:19 PM

2015-10-05T12:19:45-04:00

Maybe outside the infantry. Or maybe at least in my company, the few that do show this behavior are quickly put in their place.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 12:26 PM

2015-10-05T12:26:49-04:00

Absolutely!! I've seen soldiers challenge regulations because they did something wrong and try to cover their butts. But they don't know the regulations that they are trying to use. It's tiring seeing this over and over again with the same soldiers.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 12:48 PM

2015-10-05T12:48:34-04:00

Haze them.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 1:15 PM

2015-10-05T13:15:35-04:00

That is a great question. Yes, I do think that Soldiers are losing their military bearing. I have been seeing a lot of Soldier getting real comfortable with Superiors...for example SPC talking to a SGM , you get to the parade rest until he/she tells you to at ease. I see soldiers in that situation talking with their hands on their hips, arms folded etc. They continue to do it because they aren't being corrected. Just the other day, I corrected a female Soldier about her faddish haircut and "French" tip nails. Her response was her Chain of Command doesn't say anything. My response to that was " just because they don't saying anything doesn't make it right, you need to read the regulation and correct yourself." One of her NCO's saw me talking to her and I explained what the situation was. They agreed and the Soldier was instructed to correct herself immediately. Making on spot correction on situated don't call for ignorance, be polite be respectful and get the job done.

Response by SSG Red Hoffman made Oct 5 at 2015 2:45 PM

2015-10-05T14:45:34-04:00

I have to say that before I joined the military, I was disrespectful, challenged all authority and was arrested several times. THEN, I went to basic training. BCT. In the 70s, the DIs took no shit and gave no quarter. My attitude was definitely adjusted and when I was sent off to my first duty station, I was a young man who respected authority and had drive to succeed in all tasks given. I do not believe the parents of new enlistees can be blamed for the soldier they became. What I blame is how soft BCT has become. Co-educational training, running PT in Army issued tennis shoes vs combat boots, cadence becoming G rated due to the segregated training formations and people getting offended by a few staunch and raunch words. No...the military has become soft...period. As soon as you tell a soldier 'they aren't allowed to do that,' they will begin to think they should be able to question everything. Discipline is the most important aspect of being a soldier. The lack of it can get you and your fellow soldiers killed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 2:50 PM

2015-10-05T14:50:04-04:00

This is what happens when 1) you have yes man leadership that loves this P.C. Bullshit... 2) you can't make soldiers immediately physically regret their actions. The army is going to hell in a hand basket.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-10-05T14:59:05-04:00

Soldiers are,
The military's standards and discipline have been up rooted by the politically correct and lazy. Our society has been changed to where mediocrity is rewarded IE: Participation trophy. Today's military is hurting by that same attitude with new soldiers coming in the ranks. The uniform changes have also taken it's toll as well. We don't shine boots or Iron uniforms, this helps develop and reinforce adhering to standards and paying attention to detail. It is common place to see soldiers in ACU OR OCP uniforms in public. I was raised in the "old military" and if you went off post off base in uniform it was going to be in at least a class B uniform dress pants an the short sleeve shirt.
Back to your question after that short tangent. As leaders we have had the rug pulled out from under us. can't smoke a Joe anymore cause it may hurt his feelings. Back in the day there was a wood line for a reason. NCO's are part of the solution to help. We as NCO's must strive to achieve the highest standards so Joe has something to relate to as "whats right". we must treat all Joes the same with no favoritism. We must also expect the same standards from the Joes. If we slack any the Joes will see weakness and take advantageous

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 2:59 PM

2015-10-05T14:59:47-04:00

advantage

Response by MSG Floyd Williams made Oct 5 at 2015 3:02 PM

2015-10-05T15:02:36-04:00

Yes, because the standards is being lowered as times goes on, and the mentality of the younger people enlisting with issues that the Army isn't permitted to address and change.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 4:00 PM

2015-10-05T16:00:00-04:00

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Veterans are fighting back! With Votes not guns! You don't have to be a Veteran to join

Response by SSG John Bacon made Oct 5 at 2015 5:06 PM

2015-10-05T17:06:57-04:00

This is what happens when you fundamentally change Basic Training and stop "beating the Civilian" out of the Individual and make them a team player.

Response by SGT Rick Ash made Oct 5 at 2015 5:16 PM

2015-10-05T17:16:05-04:00

You bet. Most are useless to start with as they are Millennials but BCT should fix some of that. My generation of boomers was also taught to challenge all authority but many of us were "hippies" and some like me still are. Challenge Authority, most will fold.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 5:49 PM

2015-10-05T17:49:06-04:00

Great question SSG Tyshaun. We need to enforce the standards, we as NCO need to be able to made on the spot correction, If we see loss of Military bearing from subordinated, peers, senior we need to correct that is called General Military Authority.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Couch made Oct 5 at 2015 6:57 PM

2015-10-05T18:57:23-04:00

I am a retired SFC I have noticed some of the younger soldiers think that they are owed something but that is just my opinion it's a different army since I was in I came in old school

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 8:31 PM

2015-10-05T20:31:49-04:00

I see it on a daily basis, I have to remind Soldiers that I am a MSG. I just recently PCSed to my unit from a highly disciplined unit. I was told that in my new unit that there was a lot of "the good old boy" system. I have decided that all I can do is show them what is right and hopefully it catches on.

Response by Cpl James Waycasie made Oct 5 at 2015 11:09 PM

2015-10-05T23:09:47-04:00

I'd have to say yes as far as a lot of active young soldiers I have met. They do not seem to have pride or carry themselves properly anymore. A lot of them are rude and mouthy when you speak with them. I actually crawled a young Marine who had been through boot and school and was home on leave. He was in his summer short sleeve uniform. He was being loud and obscene. I went up to him and said Semper Fi Bro, don't you think you should tone it down a bit in public especially being in uniform? He got pretty smart with me so I grabbed him by his shirt front and shoved him against a car and told him , look you little punk I was a Marine before you were born and you better square your sh#t away before I square it away for you got it? He said "Yes Sir" I brushed off his shirt and said carry on. He squared up his shoulders marched off to his car and got in and left. I just shook my head and thought really? What is happening to the Corps.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Oct 5 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-10-05T23:26:47-04:00

I think perhaps, but we (the military) allowed this to happen in the mid 2000s as we struggled to maintain end-strength; we lowered standards and turned a collective blind eye. That takes time to repair. I also believe, we are prone (every generation is) to think things were always better back in our day. On 911, we old Soldiers feared the new troopers were not hard, nor ready, and they all proved us wrong. I think all will be OK.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 12:04 AM

2015-10-06T00:04:41-04:00

Times have changed, leaders need to change with the times, I left basic in 79 with a broken arm and a better attitude, that won't work today, These kids are much smarter than we ever were, the training needs to fit each Soldier, no "one size fits all" will work anymore, As leaders WE need to adapt and over come, weed out the trash and train the rest to be the best. Lead by example and you will be the winner in the end.

Response by CSM Carl Cunningham made Oct 6 at 2015 12:12 AM

2015-10-06T00:12:17-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member , I would say that you had to have bearing before you could lose it. We are an Army of transition right now and you have a few schools of thought dividing the Army at every level. And if the seniors can't agree on everything, then how can we get the junior leaders on the same page. Now, when it comes to standards and discipline, we are failing at that as an NCO Corps. WE, the NCO's, should be taking more pride in our uniform and appearance, and we should be setting the example at all times. We also need to enforce the Army standard, while we set the example. It is just that simple. It isn't personal, NCO's don't hate Soldiers, but we need to put our big girl/boy pants on and enforce standards and discipline.

The key to fixing this is at the SGT/SSG level. If I stopped and corrected every deficiency I witnessed during the day, I would not get anything done....nor would I get anywhere. A CSM/SGM or even a 1SG/MSG should not be making on the spot correction all day. It should not get to that level. The SGT/SSG's are probably the most powerful in the NCO Corps. They have the power to enforce these standards, because they are who the Soldiers work for. I no longer correct Soldiers, I grab the nearest NCO and ask them why they are not correcting ate-up Soldiers.

I could write a book on this subject/issue. It cannot be fixed alone. It will take all of us in the NCO Corps to step up our game.

Response by CPL Johnny Davis made Oct 6 at 2015 12:51 AM

2015-10-06T00:51:48-04:00

As a U.S. Army Iraq Vet 01-04, I truely hate to admit it. But I also do believe that alot of these soldiers, like kids of this younger generation do have entitlement issue's. When I served I did my basic at Fort Knox, we weren't allowed to have cell phones, headp phones and what's this crap about stress cards Iheard ssomeone talking about? When I did basic we didn't have any of these things and we got along just fine without them. Yes, basic would have been easier to call home, if we hand cell phones. But we were their to be trained to help us serve over sea's. Also if it was for my training I hate to admit it, but I'd be dead. My training help saved my life. So I think, they shouldn't have to go easy on privates in basic training, especially since they are their to learn servival skills, skills that can possibly save their lives and I speak from first hand experience about that. So I say, no they shouldn't have such easy basic training especially since they may need that training since their is a good chance that some may even end up fighting oversea's. But then again, Idid my basic training in 01, so I don't know if it is as easy as some have said it has gotten. Unfortunately for me I was hurt while serving and lost sight in my right eye, so I didn't get to reinlist. So I truely hope that these matters are worked out asap. Hooooaaaahhhhh

Response by SSgt David Tedrow made Oct 6 at 2015 12:57 AM

2015-10-06T00:57:51-04:00

I believe there is a lot less military bearing throughout the military these days. Depending on what unit a person is assigned, you can tell the difference in bearing and professionalism.

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 1:40 AM

2015-10-06T01:40:31-04:00

I can tell you it's partial. Me, being a crew chief, working slave shifts everyday to appease the expeditor. We grunt on how crappy we have it and how we never get the thank you we get, but we still follow orders and no bitch about it. I enlisted early last year and I'm the same way. Bitch about it under my breath but still get the job done. Depends on who you are as a person

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 2:30 AM

2015-10-06T02:30:02-04:00

I believe as NCO's, it is incumbent upon us not only to set the standard but to enforce it. If we let one group grow lax then we foster an ideology of entitlement. I had a soldier cuss me out in June, I counseled her for insubordination and recommended UCMJ. The senior DFAC leadership opposed UCMJ and sat on the paperwork for 30 days before deciding against UCMJ. I took leave and upon returning found that not only did nothing happen but they sent her to the soldier of he month board. When I inquired about it I was recommended for UCMJ and told to shave off my mustache. I received a company grade article 15 for failure to follow a direct order and knowingly disregarding a lawful order. So yes I blame senior leadership for coddling these soldiers and siding with them against the NCO corps!

Response by PO2 Sam Tkach made Oct 6 at 2015 7:20 AM

2015-10-06T07:20:03-04:00

Where did you get this impression from, sir? If you could provide examples, that would help.

Response by MSgt Eric Roseberry made Oct 6 at 2015 7:46 AM

2015-10-06T07:46:41-04:00

My Army experience is limited, I'm the son, brother, and father of soldiers. My brother had stories of camaraderie and mission, daily pt and endless formations. My son graduated basic, standing tall and proud. He redeployed from Afghanistan with an unmatched love and appreciation for the US. He was a well trained, confident and capable medic. The two years between training and deployment tell a different story, absent leadership... Even junior NCO's were uninvolved in my soldiers daily life. Specialists learning on their own how to shape the next generation... They were doing their best but discipline isn't built on smoke.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-10-06T07:56:44-04:00

I can't speak for soldoers, but for Airmen coming in between 08 and 13 I felt this was the case. Not sure what the change has been after 2013...maybe my move to an Ops squadron from a support squadron, but I have seen much better motivation and preofeesionalism from the young Airman as of late.

Response by SSG John Sundberg made Oct 6 at 2015 8:05 AM

2015-10-06T08:05:41-04:00

In our volunteer military the Cadre MAY be more intelligent than the assigned leaders.the issues are 1) Timing - is there still time to discuss before action; 2) Response -considering and evaluation of the questions; 3)A respectful phrasing of both the question and the answer. Discussion, properly conducted may very well provide a reason why the obvious won't work or may provide a better way to address the problem.

Response by MGySgt Marty Pack made Oct 6 at 2015 8:27 AM

2015-10-06T08:27:00-04:00

With the attitudes of the current generation, of entitlement and "why me?", who didn't see this coming? I started noticing it before I retired in 2013. Personal accountability and responsibility are rapidly becoming a thing of the past...and, unfortunately, our services are a reflection of our society.

Response by TSgt Jose Cabrera made Oct 6 at 2015 9:21 AM

2015-10-06T09:21:55-04:00

Damn I here this from Soldiers everyday, The clicks that have formed are amazing. You get one Bad NCOER and your kicked out of the Army after 20 years of service and 4 tours and not even given the chance to retire. Or fudging your PT Scores because you FAT Bodies can't cut it! Damn I saw it happening during the 90's and went into the Air Force Reserve Where it was worse. An E-7 get busted for embezzling over $150,000 and get busted to E-6 and then with a year gets promoted to E-7. That Why I retired after 25 years of service. Everyone thinks they're entitled to everything. Your not entitled to shit until you earned it.!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 10:40 AM

2015-10-06T10:40:19-04:00

What does anybody expect from a generation that all got trophies for participating and were always told that they're special little snowflakes... just like everybody else. Those of us in leadership positions are partially to blame though, because we keep inadvertently rewarding the bad behavior.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-10-06T10:43:11-04:00

This is serius issue, Leaders from top to botton have to enforce such military bearing and behaviors that are not rigth. These problems are affecting the performance of soldiers, NCOs and officer on the battlefield.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 11:05 AM

2015-10-06T11:05:28-04:00

Here's the opinion of a Sailor who worked alongside Soldiers...

When I first entered the service in '96, it "felt" like a peace time military-The focus was on all those important aspects of training for war-not conducting a war. After 9/11, everything changed, and I could "feel" it when everyone and their uncle wanted to "identify" with a war that was quickly becoming less conventional, more "Special Operations" oriented, etc.

As far as discipline goes, I think we have to consider the fact that we re-defined so many missions in such a short period of time. Overnight, personnel who only carried (unloaded) weapons on watch were training with IBA and loaded weapons. We started crossing "lanes" in terms of what service members outside of true "combat arms" were expected to confront.

Then-the uniforms.

Berets...
"Desert Boots"...

The Marines had their distinctive, very modern, almost "futuristic" MARPATs, and everyone envied them. The Army got ACUs...then, there were those crazy blue digi-cammies for the Navy and retro-revival "tiger stripe" for the Air Force. Velcro...Velcro everywhere.

Sailors and Airmen found themselves in Army convoys...living like "Soldiers", but not. Naturally, there are cultural and regulatory differences. "Combat Patches", what are the true "Field Standards", who gets a CAB...you've heard the litany of complaints. Hey-I'm guilty myself; first thing I did "down range" was opt for the "modified" , aka unsat DCUs.

Then, we throw in the societal impact of one of the most divided decades in U.S. history, and you get young people in who are "trained" not to conform...not to take things at their word...not to "obey". It's an activist generation intent on change...entering a military that has slowly let go of the tools it has used for generations to impose conformity, loyalty and obedience.

From some of the older vets I've spoken to...this has happened before, and coincides with the adaptations the military makes to plus up numbers during a conflict. You need a lot of first term enlistments...a lot of "five and dive" officers...true long term folks are rare, and survive the inevitable "purges" post action.

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Oct 6 at 2015 11:07 AM

2015-10-06T11:07:51-04:00

I'd have to say same problems, with different generation. I am sure that the WWII troops have something to say about the Korean War troops, who have something to say about the Vietnam War troops, who have something to say about the Desert Storm troops, etc.

Do I feel like our force is weakening? No.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Oct 6 at 2015 11:12 AM

2015-10-06T11:12:56-04:00

I can't speak to the Army as a whole, but when I was Active Duty Infantry, I didn't really notice a general lack of military bearing, but what a culture shock when I transitioned to a transportation company in the Reserves! It was a whole different world...but with the same uniform. And I'll admit, backsliding is easy when you're 90% civilian, so it truly takes a conscience effort to maintain one's military bearing in the part-time Army.

Response by GySgt Michael Lathon made Oct 6 at 2015 11:33 AM

2015-10-06T11:33:27-04:00

As generations change, so do standards and those holding the reigns of power to enforce them.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 12:01 PM

2015-10-06T12:01:32-04:00

I think it has more to do with society than specifically with the military. When I first enlisted, we were non rates, and our NCOs made sure we understood the only thing we rated was to keep our boot mouths shut, and if we didn't like it, get promoted. Similarly, my dad simply told me, you joined the Marine Corps it didn't join you. That made sense to me. Today we have the every kid gets a trophy and everyone's feelings matter generation. Now there's a belief that all servicemembers are equal regardless of rank or MOS. "One team, one fight" being an example. As leaders, we can instill a sense of pride and stoicism in younger servicemembers, as well an understanding that mission accomplishment comes before troop welfare. One thing many of us are guilty of is not wanting to be the bad guy, or take ownership of an unpopular decision. We must take ownership of our subordinates ultimately it is our responsibility to shape them as soldiers, sailors, airmen or Marines.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 12:16 PM

2015-10-06T12:16:34-04:00

Let me rephrase your question. "Are leaders losing their willingness to lead?" Granted I have been retired for a couple of years, but I lead with the intent of "bend to the standard or I will make your life a living hell". I refused to accept less than the minimum standard. I wrote counselling forms instead of charge sheets and was not afraid to bring them out come promotion time. If you got nonrec'ed, you have tried harder, but that was on you.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Oct 6 at 2015 12:17 PM

2015-10-06T12:17:39-04:00

If so, it's because we've let it happen. If you're not the guy or gal calling people on their bullshit, who is? I'm not saying we all need to be head hunters, because I don't believe in vigilantism as a leadership tool. That said, this problem is indicative of how far society has devolved in the last several years, not least due to people, read: leadership, who think they're beyond reproach.

But it isn't so. Several highly-decorated officers have been held accountable for the deeds or misdeeds, as it were. The good thing about the UCMJ is that it's fair and relatively quick in its deliberations, and certainly so in comparison with civilian courts where cases are tied up for years before deliberation. It may not be prosecuted to the extent it should be, but it certainly is a measure of the accountability we hold or should hold ourselves and our subordinates to.

But back to military bearing, because I veered off course just then: ALL NCOs, not just the senior enlisted, should be enforcing standards. Again, ALL. That's part of the NCO Creed. If you haven't looked at that in a while, you probably need to. Not just our subordinates, but also our junior officers who occasionally need a course correction, too. This is more a problem of leadership, or the lack thereof, and people who are unable or unwilling to confront their fellow service members.

This has to change.

Response by MGySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 1:02 PM

2015-10-06T13:02:36-04:00

The Armed Forces are no longer immune to the moral decay of society.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Oct 6 at 2015 1:31 PM

2015-10-06T13:31:15-04:00

Yes, they are
Especially the new young generation, they have been influenced.

Response by SPC Lorne Smith made Oct 6 at 2015 1:41 PM

2015-10-06T13:41:25-04:00

I felt this was an issue in the late 90's. I personally believe there are a a few reasons which have already been covered. I think (but could be wrong) that soldiers aren't getting the proper mental training in Basic, and that as those soldiers have advanced, they are less inclined to be good leaders which enables and encourages lower enlisted to discard what bearing they may have. This is based on my own observations in combat support units.

Response by SMSgt David A Asbury made Oct 6 at 2015 2:08 PM

2015-10-06T14:08:42-04:00

We must remember what George Washington said. It is simialr to this, "How we treat our veterans from the past wars is determining what type of soldiers we are getting today to fight future wars. The bearing should be what we teach in basic training, tech school and by supervisors on a daily bases.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 2:27 PM

2015-10-06T14:27:45-04:00

As traditions are removed, modified, and replaced, the soldiers that have been in for a while will be nostalgic for how things once were, and will fight to preserve traditions because it plays on their psychology.

That said, change is inevitable. I could care less about "Military Bearing"(I'd just use the term "professionalism". I feel as though it's something that holds us back when we are addressing people by titles and with our hands at our sides or behind our backs. We should foster collaboration and communication, and traditional drill and ceremony and customs and courtesy do not help that to happen.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 2:56 PM

2015-10-06T14:56:32-04:00

I don't think I have enough time in my day to go into detail my feelings on this matter. I will keep it short and sweet. YES. Through the insane amount of PC coupled with the downfall of "tough love" during Basic training and AIT, a large proportion of new Soldiers are coming into the military with exactly what you described; an utterly ridiculous high level of self entitlement, lack of discipline/military bearing, and to be blunt, a DON'T GIVE A S&*T attitude. And as many of these exact same Soldiers fill our ranks and progress into leadership positions, this feeds and escalates this issue ten fold. Military policy is no longer driven by what creates a more combat effective and cohesive unit that is better for the greater good of the unit, branch and country, but rather driven by the individual needs of those who fail to conform to the ways of a battle proven way of life.

Response by SPC Donte Hill made Oct 6 at 2015 3:02 PM

2015-10-06T15:02:17-04:00

What I was entitled to was outstanding leadership, tools, equipment and weaponry necessary to accomplish the mission. That is all

Response by PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 4:57 PM

2015-10-06T16:57:58-04:00

The question raised by this discussion/question is; What will you as NCOs do to contribute to the solution? Are you willing to mentor and take time from personal life in order to instill or reestablish that bearing and discipline? What's forgotten or omitted is the fact that the new soldiers or junior NCOs were not the ones who softened the standards. It is the senior NCOs and officers in high places that saw fit to make changes that have been detrimental to discipline and bearing. It was in fact the "old Army" that took away smoke sessions and deemed it as hazing and what not. So working within the new parameters and guidelines that are currently imposed on leaders, what will you do to ensure good order and discipline?

Response by 1SG VonErick Trim made Oct 6 at 2015 5:28 PM

2015-10-06T17:28:01-04:00

yes

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Oct 6 at 2015 5:32 PM

2015-10-06T17:32:36-04:00

I feel they are and I do not e NCO doing anything or saying anything to them when they see soldiers screwing up off post. When I was in I would take soldiers out side a store or were ever we were and jump there shit never did it in public

Response by Cpl Sean Tucker made Oct 6 at 2015 5:51 PM

2015-10-06T17:51:18-04:00

I noticed a lack of discipline when civilians got involved in our military daily duties . Boot parties were a direct connection to respecting your upper ranks. When I was in the Marines wall to wall was a regular practice to teach discipline point blank

Response by SFC Everett Oliver made Oct 6 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-10-06T17:58:44-04:00

Good Lord I hope not.........And not from what I've seen of the young recruits from here...But I am aware that this small village is still family oriented and the community is involved with all the parts of it. Everything from a Garden club to the Seniors Club, Boy scouts, girl scouts and in a village of only 1200 people nearly every student is either in the band on the cheer squad or on one of the sports teams

Response by SSG Jesus Sijalbo made Oct 6 at 2015 7:28 PM

2015-10-06T19:28:03-04:00

I guess that boot camp needs to untrained those unusefull behaviors and produce better soldiers and service members. Maybe we need to bring back the so called (Field Counseling Method) or just need to revise the soldiers creed more often. They may have a point but it doesn't make it right in a military situation or mission oriented. Get it Done!!! God Bless.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2015 8:00 PM

2015-10-06T20:00:52-04:00

I've been wrestling with this since after boot camp. The disrespect for the rank and selfishness. I've actually had soldiers say "I don't work like that" when I said he's a E-6 your and E-4 you carry out the order. It's the liberal mindset (I don't have to follow the rules, I do what I want). We are losing pride, professionalism, and respect for the ranks. Also, I do lay it on leadership for not enforcing the rules. There was a time when thought was oh shit this is the military they don't play, I better follow the rules strait to the "T" or I'm gonna get punished. What happen to that military? I want to be in that military.

Response by SGT Christina Hernandez made Oct 6 at 2015 9:02 PM

2015-10-06T21:02:07-04:00

I feel like it has very little to do with the NCO's per say. These new soldiers are a product of a society that now gives a 50 in a class just for showing up and putting their name on the paper. They also aloud to question authority as very yong children. There are no boundries and the children are in authority. I weep for the future.

Response by SSG Brian MacBain made Oct 6 at 2015 9:22 PM

2015-10-06T21:22:06-04:00

I been retired since 2006. I can only respond before I had retired. I have seen that NCO's are getting worried about being "Politically correct". I have seen good NCO's careers ruined when a lower ranking soldier (female) decided to call rape just because that NCO was correcting her. Even though it did not occur, that NCO career was over. Again, I been out since 2006, I hope that got fixed and NCO's are doing what they (male and female) are suppose to do.

Response by SPC James Moya made Oct 6 at 2015 9:26 PM

2015-10-06T21:26:40-04:00

There is a combination of factors as to why lapse in discipline is taking place: weak leadership, low morale, dirt bag NCOs, and for some reason many of you NCOs and Officers became afraid to stand your ground. Last I checked an order was an order was an order and carries with it UCMJ action under articles 89, 90, and 91 if disobeyed. Start handing out UCMJ. We have a reduction in force taking place, if someone doesn't want to be there, get rid of them! Leadership is intrusive. So start flexing that rank and using your big boy and big girl voice to stop this trend of poor discipline. CSMs get with it! Get out of the office and start randomly visiting your soldiers. Weak leadership starts with the CSM and if you aren't engaged or engaged enough, you need to splash some cold water on your face and remind everyone how you earned your rank! If you see a 1SG or PLT leader that just can't seem to get with the program, FIRE THEM and put someone else in charge that knows what the hell they are doing to stop your soldiers from mimicking bad leadership.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 12:11 AM

2015-10-07T00:11:34-04:00

All I hear is ITS a New Army... people are getting let go more often... no room for error

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 1:00 AM

2015-10-07T01:00:44-04:00

A real quick solution is to stop giving chances we need to have a pattern of misconduct in order to do UCMJ but if you read the manual it is straight forward once is enough. Writing multiple counseling a are a courtesy not a right. Next is get off the politically correct carriage we are in the Army and soldiers need to know that the only entitlements they have is to have three hits and a cot and some times one or the other is cold. As for the lack of respect well we somehow mixed up respect of Rank and respect of person we seem to think respect of person is mandatory and respect of rank is earned wrong flip the two around. Lastly I was raised with little money and a lot of yelling and an occasional beating and guess what I fit in just fine with the Army lifestyle we need to stop making excuses and go back old school break down civilians to build soldiers.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 1:35 AM

2015-10-07T01:35:24-04:00

Most of the soldiers they bringing in are garbage. P.O.S's just looking for a job.

Response by SFC David Brunk made Oct 7 at 2015 2:20 AM

2015-10-07T02:20:23-04:00

Wow, it sure has changed since I was in. Entitlement in the military? Every award, every medal I was awarded I earned save one, the National Defense Service Medal. When I performed as expected I got an ATTA BOY and a pat on the back. When I screwed up I got a boot in the butt. Hell, I've even had officers over me get medals for what my teammates and I accomplished. We excelled at our mission because it was our job, not for recognition and not because they "motivated us". It may begin because of the type of soldiers they're bringing into the military today, but it's up to the leadership to maintain command and control. If a subordinate gets out line because he feels entitled, then he needs to be put in his place. Granted there are good ways and bad ways of doing this.

Response by PO3 James Conner made Oct 7 at 2015 3:41 AM

2015-10-07T03:41:54-04:00

These topics are always hard to deal with. It's an easy trap to fall into, the line of thinking where one generation isn't awesome like my generation. Each generation is roughly the same as the last.
My personal experience, had an e5 want to get out a few months early so he could attend college the coming semester. Personnel said, "hey no problem here's the packet. Fill it out and have your chief sign off and you're good to go. He does this, he goes to his chief... long story short, the chief screws him.
Or my BAS blew it's budget and couldn't provide drugs to us line guys.
Or we would come out of our Tuesday through Thursday FX and get bitched at because we smelled...
Or the Sergeant Major who decided his guys were getting to soft so he closed the showers and the laundromat off at the FOB even though my Seabees had dug a well that provided enough water to run all the hoses, showers and laundry all day every day (BTW he cited saving water as his official reasoning)
Or any number of examples of bad leadership. You know, ask people why they got out / are getting out. Most of us talk about experiencing bad leadership.

In my honest opinion there are a lot of leaders who feel entitled and are in fact worthless.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 7:15 AM

2015-10-07T07:15:20-04:00

Sometimes the orders i'm given are outstandingly stupid. I do them to the best of my ability, however i'll admit I bit** about it whenever there are no NCOs present. In my honest opinion, I think myself to be a good soldier. I've been asked by many levels of my chain-of-command to consider reenlisting. I don't want too because I see soooooooo many of my peers reenlisting - And let's just say I don't want to be anywhere near the vast majority of these people in combat. They can't shoot, they can't PT, they can barley pass a simple class on Korean drivers training. I've considered just failing two PT tests just to get out of the Army. None of my NCOs in my current unit, nor my last even take soldiers under their wing. In my own opinion, I'd say 2/3rds of the junior NCOs i've ever had over me were incompetent leaders. Why does it seem to me that the terrible soldiers get waivers for rank, sent to good schools like Air Assault, WLC, and get the opportunity to do the actual "Soldier" stuff while I get chosen to sweep, mop, combat gardener all because of the excuse "We want you here because I know you'll get work done." It's become insanely hard to deal with the "green weenie". I don't mean any disrespect to any NCOs on here who don't deserve this comment, but if you want the junior enlisted soldiers to start being soldiers again, then the NCOs who are promoted and given the responsibility to lead soldiers should actually learn how to be a 'leader of soldiers', just like your creed states.

Response by SSG John Lambert made Oct 7 at 2015 7:31 AM

2015-10-07T07:31:33-04:00

You all realize that your leaders said the same thing about you when you came in? And their leaders said the same thing about them? I learned something early in my career and it's this "it's a pretty piss poor NCO who blames his Soldiers for his failures". I'm so tired of hearing NCO's bitch about "Soldiers", or "Privates". I guess most of you came in the military knowing everything and were perfect. It's your job as an NCO to not only set the standard, but to train, mentor, inspire. Seriously, quit bitching.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 8:59 AM

2015-10-07T08:59:42-04:00

I think overall, the culture of the Army has changed and things that would be considered undisciplined before are more acceptable. For instance, when I was a young Private, a Junior Enlisted Soldier would never freely go start a conversation with the First Sergeant or Commander if they saw them out in the company or motorpool. This is pretty common these days though. Through the long process of train, deploy, reset, deploy it was figured out that leaders at all levels needed to be more engaged with their troops, just to keep a finger on the pulse of that Soldier's well being. I think some took this a bit too far, and now Soldiers don't feel that there is any kind of barrier between them and their leaders, more like their leader has just been in longer and makes more money. And it is difficult because the Soldiers that were Privates when this started happening are likely Staff Sergeants or Sergeants First Class by now.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 9:25 AM

2015-10-07T09:25:38-04:00

I chalk it up as a problem from the root. Bad parenting and lack of guidance. Then they join up, and today's Army, I believe, fosters an environment of "accepting" a low grade Soldier, to include lack of respect, decency, moral fiber, and integrity. However instead of cutting the fat we, the Army, must "rehabilitate" these individuals from the 18+ years of poor instruction.

Also, we need to stop "protecting" people, if they don't meet the standards; chapter packet.

No disrespect is meant. I apologize for the abrasive response, I just feel that there are two major steps that we can make to RADICALLY improve our military:

PT test + height and weight; failure = chapter.
Make strenuous recruiting restrictions. Id rather have 9 SOLDIERS than 2 Soldiers and 7 issues.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Oct 7 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-10-07T11:36:58-04:00

I feel that people are a product of their environment to a degree. Willingness to learn, and a true belief/dedication; both for and to the seven Army Values; cannot be stressed enough. The U.S. Army acronym that stands for Leadership is underrated. Loyalty, Duty, RESPECT, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage. These attributes make up how a real Soldier should act, carry, condone himself or herself.

In my opinion there are lots of gangbangers -those that have only joined the military since they had no other way to get out of jail time. Lots of soldiers from my experience ; prone to violence and deviant acts of horror. Toxic leaders and those plain stressed out( after multiple deployments) is something that is real and in every unit I served in. We need a way to completely weed out these types of leaders, to somehow ensure that the, "good ole boy systems are not in place"; then and only then will the military have leaders of nobility as the overwhelming majority.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 11:48 AM

2015-10-07T11:48:24-04:00

I think there's three points to make in this discussion.

1) This is a generational thing. Older generations seem to look down on younger ones, no matter when or where. This is very acute here in the military.
2) People join the military looking to get something other than a career. Most kids enlist to pay for college or gain a trade, they're already look at life after ETS. To that end, they want to see the return on investment, ASAP.
3) I think that, in the Army, for example, NCOs at IET need to have more time to work on instilling the "profession of arms" into recruits. This is done well, even now. And NCOs in the field need to reinforce that training, by mentoring new troops and hold them to high standards. The same goes for officers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 12:05 PM

2015-10-07T12:05:46-04:00

Speaking from the lower enlisted point of view, it's not so much as losing it, it's what you become accustomed to after you've finished your Basic and MOS School. I came when we were still in BDU's and you were expected to present yourself as a person of character both on and off duty. You were expected to respect rank regardless of being in a training status or at the local eatery socializing. Once u arrive to your actual duty station, some, not all, are very relaxed and you don't see the proper bearing being demonstrated from some higher ups more or less the incoming new recruits. This in itself, although it doesn't mean you should display the same thing, creates an ongoing disruption of what the regulations versus real life scenarios present. I don't think it's so much of losing something that was drilled into you from day 0 of your military training, but more of if its required of me to do it and my higher ups don't become a living, breathing, walking example of those same regulations, then why should I? In the end, all soldiers, no matter what rank, are direct reflections of their leadership, and of the leadership has no bearing, then no soldier involved in the link will have any.

Response by SPC Andrew Griffin made Oct 7 at 2015 12:13 PM

2015-10-07T12:13:41-04:00

It has been declining for awhile! Particularly since the Past 10 Years! The reason for that is NCO's aren't allowed to be the Pitbulls they once use to be! That's what you get when you lower the standards and water down Tradition! Officers need to stay out of NCO's business! Allow them to Lead!

Response by PO1 Glenn Boucher made Oct 7 at 2015 12:34 PM

2015-10-07T12:34:46-04:00

I feel that this has been slowly going on for at least the last 10 or so years. I see it when I go to the Navy base where I live and also when I see service members out in town in their working uniforms.
You see a service member in their working uniforms in town and many are very sloppy looking, wrinkled up, pants unbloused or not properly tucked in, depending on the service. Many wearing their covers cocked at different angles, boots very dirty or unpolished.
And the worst part is that I have seen many E-6 and E-7 looking like stereotypical thugs with their pants hanging down showing their ass.
If the mid level and senior enlisted cannot keep a standard how do you expect junior enlisted to maintain standards?
No matter if we are military or civilian if we see leadership not conforming what is the incentive to conform?

Response by SFC Edwin Watson made Oct 7 at 2015 12:52 PM

2015-10-07T12:52:25-04:00

I enlisted in '93, right after the Post CG told the Drill Sergeants they couldn't beat the crap out of you in front of the formation any more. So they waited till they got you to the woodline. Then that stopped, then they couldn't get in your face so the spit would fly into your eyes when they cussed you out, and quit letting them say your mama did things with goats, and it progressed downhill. Now I understand Drill Sergeants can't even raise their voice beyond a certain decibel level when talking to you in a gentle tone. Soldiers don't fear the consequences of their actions, so we have a breakdown in discipline.

Response by SSG John Erny made Oct 7 at 2015 1:20 PM

2015-10-07T13:20:48-04:00

Never go anywhere with out your military bearing! ......Runs for cover!

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Oct 7 at 2015 2:06 PM

2015-10-07T14:06:29-04:00

"Back in 1775, in Tun’s Tavern, recruiting started for the new Marine Corps. The very first Marine enlistee came in, signed the papers and took an oath. He was then told to go outside and wait for the other enlistee’s to go through the process. They would assemble later on the front yard.
After a few minutes the second enlistee came out and had a seat on the steps beside the first.
The first man looked at the second and began, "Son, let me tell you about the Old Corps."

Every generation is slightly different than the one before it.
Would Chesty Puller have been considered an outstanding Marine during the 80's or 90's?
No. He would have been labeled a shitbird because his boots weren't shiny enough and he didn't get 3 haircuts a week. He would have never made it to past 2nd Lt.
I've been retired 6 years, but I was still getting great kids in until the end. They required a different kind of leadership, but then again, so did we.
I remember having several Vietnam era Senior SNCOs that just knew the Corps would never survive with the useless kids coming in then.

Response by SFC Rick H made Oct 7 at 2015 3:14 PM

2015-10-07T15:14:22-04:00

Greetings- on the subject of " are Soldiers losing their Military bearing and / or feeling more entitled?" I'm a retired soldier- been retired for quite a while now however, I work around soldiers each and every day. I joined the Army in 1977, did Boot Camp at cold @$$ Fort Dix in March. Hmm, talk about discipline- that we were. We even learned to fear a Corporal. Up front and down and dirty- most of my leadership back then were Vietnam vets- they didn't like to write you up- no Sir. They had other ways of gaining our attention. I was told early on by the E5s, E6 and E7 types, there is no difference in the power and / or authority of any NCO rank- it was all about the person wearing the rank and if he/she deserved that rank. I learned to be a " hard nose " NCO from the day I made SGT / E5 - but I also learned to be fair (in accordance with the rules or standards; legitimate.). I never liked speaking more than once to my soldiers; it is not yours to ask why, but how high? I explained what a good manager- NCO was for them. When a new NCO arrives and takes over a squad, platoon or section, his/her job is to make change happen. Either the soldiers will earn a promotion, demotion, awards- no awards or other favorable / unfavorable events will take place during their experience in your leadership style; your soldiers will experience a change. Its not fair to anyone not to learn what a talented/caring manager as an NCO is and will accomplish. A talented manager will not leave any soldier the same as they were found. You, the NCO cannot be your soldies friend, no buddy crap in my act- oh, that means no " hanky panky " either. We are here because we raised our right hand and promised we will serve our great Nation- our people with pride and dignity- we are held to a much higher standard as soldiers than our civilian counterparts will ever be. I would share this with my soldiers; if you decide you don't want to be a soldier anymore, I WILL be happy to send your happy @$$ packing back home to your momma- that's where they end up anyway. Finally, to all NCOs- stop making excuses and do your job. Make certain you know your job- soldiers learn quickly if you fall short! Do not fear giving orders to your soldiers- that's your job NCO's. Professional Non Commissioned Officers are the backbone of the Army- lead, follow or get the hello out of the way! HOOAH!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2015 4:41 PM

2015-10-07T16:41:01-04:00

Just clarify something for me please. These are not talking points from the White House because too many veterans are angry is it? 1LT Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 5:44 AM

2015-10-08T05:44:34-04:00

Ever since NCOs have lost their power to enforce the standard by curving back on the way they can enforce corrective training. I agree with the previous statement; the Soldiers that we are letting in the Army who lack discipline. The Army want numbers not quality of the Soldier. the Army Let the Good Quality, Standard Bearing, Goal Oriented, Disciplined Soldiers go.....this is what you get, this is why we have these discussion. Maybe I'm Old School..........

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Oct 8 at 2015 8:46 AM

2015-10-08T08:46:30-04:00

The question assumes these people had any bearing to begin with and also presupposes NCOs have been doing their job. My impression is Soldiers do what they think they can get away with, and the NCOs have been letting them do it.

Response by SGT Apollo Sharpe made Oct 8 at 2015 8:54 AM

2015-10-08T08:54:23-04:00

When NCOs' power to correct soldiers are curtailed by higher leadership, this is the result. We once had a large toolbox filled with the required tools to tighten a young soldier up & mold them into the type of soldier that every service member would be proud of. Nowadays, I have no idea how we actually win wars. If things continue in the direction that they seem to be going, we won't be a superpower much longer.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 9:20 AM

2015-10-08T09:20:46-04:00

The fact is that enlistments are no longer filled with mindless conservatives the way they once were, this is not a generation that will end up with 58,000 KIA like in Vietnam, 4500 KIA in Iraq, 2300 KIA in Afghanistan.

The conservative culture that has hobbled our military and our nation is being phased out and the enlisted ranks are now being filled with more intelligent recruits, who will not simply put up with taking dumb commands from the too many Republicans who still pollute the higher ranks.
This will make for a smarter military and a more effective armed forces.

Conservatives who don't like it can go join the Taliban; the're anti-feminist, anti-gay, anti-Obama just like you! They cling to guns and religion just like you! They're idolatrous patriots and religious traditionalists just like you! Taliban, Russians and conservatives are all anti-gay and anti-feminist, natural allies! They're all unchristian just like you. Conservative values are unAmerican, they're Islamist! Obama drones the buzz out of Taliban conservatives on a daily basis, he's got a Predator missile with your name written on it!

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 10:40 AM

2015-10-08T10:40:04-04:00

I'm gonna go with YES!!! and its proportional to the time spent down range.....the more time downrange the less military bearing and professionalism they show in garrison. The standards are the same no matter where you are stationed but the collective tends to let things slide in a war zone and then fails to real things back in tight upon return.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 10:59 AM

2015-10-08T10:59:45-04:00

I don't want to be one of the few officers to comment on this thread, but reading through the usual sentiments bothers me. I think the answer to the question is to first ask "Who is responsible for Soldiers' military bearing?"

The answer, no doubt, is NCOs. Shifting the blame onto the Soldier for lacking military bearing is, I believe, irresponsible. I'm open to hearing arguments to the contrary.

So, I would like to ask a follow up question. If Soldiers are losing their military bearing, what does that say about our entire leadership corps, officers included? Being a professional means putting the blame where it belongs and then dealing, aggressively, with the problem.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 11:14 AM

2015-10-08T11:14:19-04:00

This goes again to the idea that people want to censor speech.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 1:53 PM

2015-10-08T13:53:09-04:00

It seems so.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Oct 8 at 2015 2:19 PM

2015-10-08T14:19:37-04:00

Today’s younger soldiers and officers are the product of the current generation of our society.

Millennials are very different from the Generation X (or Xers). The Xers and Baby Boomers have more similarities than Xers do with the Millennials.

Basic training may do its role but clearly the institution, more specifically Army leaders, are failing to enforce the standards. I see it from E1 to O6. From the soldier doing it to leaders endorsing it or ignoring the issue. This creates inconsistencies for the leaders that engage into solving issues of military bearing.

Some issues are easy to address while others are more challenging depending on the organizational dynamic, norms, internal office politics of the unit and/or the rank of the individual. There is a danger of becoming the black sheep in the unit.

No silver bullets here.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 2:56 PM

2015-10-08T14:56:28-04:00

1LT Private RallyPoint Member As the old saying goes, "Change starts from the Top down." There are too many issues in the way of professional growth and correction. Some examples are males are afraid to correct females; corrections are typically enforced by senior personnel; etc. The reality is there are far more junior than senior personnel in the military and without a sense of ownership/responsibility of self then these lessons have less impact. We all were there and some of us had a harder time growing up in the military than others but we all evolved into something better and greater than when we started out. The growing pains hurt but we always, eventually find our way.

Response by PO1 Michael Fullmer made Oct 8 at 2015 6:35 PM

2015-10-08T18:35:50-04:00

I can't speak to soldiers, but, I can say a large number of the sailors I know certainly are.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 6:38 PM

2015-10-08T18:38:12-04:00

The army has changed. We are doing a draw down and the Army is slimming down. Conversely, this is not the 1st time this effect has happened, think of Vietnam. Lastly, we have to understand this is not the army or the society of the US Army of the 80s or even 90s (Desert Storm Era), there is a focus from society (the basis from which the Army draws and serves) on different cultural values and this is reflected in individuals who join. They will bring their own perspectives and viewpoints, such is the way when people join an organization, especially one as big as the Army.

Now, understand that, this shift has been just more visible because of as someone earlier mentioned, a re-focus on the Garrison environment, so more enforcement and re-interating of the standards Army wide. They haven't change but, how the Army reacts and responds does change and bobs and weaves as new personnel come in and old ones retire or leave.

If you feel it isn't for you, then you can leave or not re-up, or you can do your role, re-educate the junior NCOs and junior enlisted as to what the standards are and train them because that is what NCOs do... lead and train soldiers. If you lead, they will follow.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2015 6:45 PM

2015-10-08T18:45:22-04:00

Let me chime in as the noob. Yes, military bearing and courtesies have been forgotten. Its really hard to salute or stand at parade rest (sarcasm intended).

Response by SrA Joshua Hagler made Oct 8 at 2015 9:26 PM

2015-10-08T21:26:20-04:00

Well speaking from the Air Force side I would say yes to some of the new troops coming in. Also, NCO's are losing their bearing because they didn't get enough experience as airmen and then get promoted way to fast and have no idea what they are doing. Also the lack of support for NCO's to train and shape airmen by SNCO's and leadership is causing a lack of motivation to try anymore. This decade long war is also killing off the mentality that is needed to keep bearing. For me, it is not just parents hovering over kids, or parents not being there, or the idea that we are all self entitled, its all of this and the lack of any accountability of leadership while at the same time blaming the new recruits for the faults they created. The most frustrating thing i had to see was the enforcement of new PT regs while at the same time not enforcing mandatory PT and increasing OPs tempo. Then it was a surprise that people failed something on the PT test or their upgrade training and/or CBT's because after working 12 to 16 hour shifts crewing jets you were to exhausted to doing anything. Shit we used to pray for deployments so we could have a break, my combat trips were the only time where bearing was ever actually used, enforced, and exercised.

Response by SPC Bruce Nichols made Oct 9 at 2015 7:17 AM

2015-10-09T07:17:07-04:00

Can't lose something they've never had instilled.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2015 12:25 PM

2015-10-09T12:25:09-04:00

As an "old school" Soldier, I can tell you all that the entitlement generation of Soldiers coming in now are so much different from years ago. Saluting has become a courtesy of the past, discipline has become all but vanished. This may hold truer for the Guard than RA, but that should not matter. From my observations, it seems as though Soldiers just don't take pride in the uniform anymore......

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 9 at 2015 3:08 PM

2015-10-09T15:08:19-04:00

Yes to both questions. One of the reasons is that leaders as a whole are afraid of complaints being levied against them because you hurt someones feelings. The entitlement generation has finally caught up to the Army and they tend to think that the Army needs them more than they need the Army hence their lack of military bearing and respect. It is unfortunate but I understand how leaders feel as I've been on the bad side of the ball before and had to prove my innocence and having the non issues raised to issue status and taking the time to prove your actions were correct but in the meantime you can't do anything because it would look like a reprisal absolutely disables ones ability to lead effectively.

Response by Sgt Spencer Sikder made Oct 9 at 2015 5:14 PM

2015-10-09T17:14:36-04:00

Of the soldiers I know, I don't see it. Once a soldier recognizes the other as a higher rank, I have noticed a different tact. I get a kick out of it sometimes. I recall at a social where everyone was casually dressed, a WO was speaking with a woman and when he asked her what her rank was and she replied LtCol, not only did his conversation change, his posture straighten up and his demeanor improved. I see the same respect among the combat enlisted and their officers.

Response by CW2 Carl Swanson made Oct 9 at 2015 6:20 PM

2015-10-09T18:20:49-04:00

Are our soldiers losing their bearing or is this a leadership problem (political) of NCOs and Officers failing to uphold the standard due to political pressure. When I was on active duty (a few years ago), we didn't really concern ourselves with the ramifications of making a proper "on the spot correction". Now, I hear and see comments posted about soldiers wandering in town in part of their uniform, or wearing hair/ uniform parts out of regulation. Where are the NCOs that are responsible for enforcing the standards? If the leadership is unwilling or unable to act, how do you expect the troops to behave?

Response by SSG Stephen Arnold made Oct 10 at 2015 11:28 PM

2015-10-10T23:28:18-04:00

This has been happening since the '80s (if not the late '70s). The sense of entitlement among the younger generation is appalling.

Response by PVT William Bresch made Oct 14 at 2015 10:25 PM

2015-10-14T22:25:07-04:00

Gee, I don't know how about stop saying, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE" ...I hear that everywhere I go and keep telling myself, for what ??? like anyone else, can do what I did. I'm a nobody, who just answered some calling that's all...

Response by PVT William Bresch made Oct 14 at 2015 10:25 PM

2015-10-14T22:25:15-04:00

Gee, I don't know how about stop saying, "THANK YOU FOR YOUR SERVICE" ...

Response by SSG Wesley Burnham made Oct 21 at 2015 2:33 PM

2015-10-21T14:33:32-04:00

YES! I was just medically retired in 2012 and was thinking the same thing. New soldiers in BCT don't seem to be taught the same values as well as older soldiers were. It really pissed me off to see privates mouthing of to NCO's.

Response by SGT Chris McDaniel made Oct 22 at 2015 6:09 PM

2015-10-22T18:09:15-04:00

I couldn't speak to the present batch, I've been out since 2007, but I think a lot of this is just guys grousing about the next generation (as had been done since the beginning of time, I think).

Some is probably legitimate, and should be expected. During my time in, from 2003 to 2007, I saw it. The leadership I had in 2003 SAS rock solid E6s and 7s with 10-15 years active. Iraq sapped that. A lot of experienced NCOs moved on early because of long deployments and having family.

By '07 it was a new group. Lots of young 5s and new-ish 6s. I think we lost a lot of good mentors between then. It led to less experienced NCOs which led to soldiers that looked different. That's a failure of leadership not Joe.

It will improve I think. If you're looking long term. Short term? Maybe not so much.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2015 10:46 PM

2015-11-12T22:46:02-05:00

Yes they are because some of our peers have created that type of environment. Soldiers will only give what we require of them as NCO's. The greatest statement ever made was "if you don't enforce the standard, you have just created a new one." If soldiers don't stand at "parade rest" until told to relax and the NCO doesn't make them, then he has failed the Army as a whole.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2015 9:25 PM

2015-11-17T21:25:13-05:00

Over the years, I feel soldiers have in a sense lost a good amount of military bearing. Being a 1SG I see new troops come in from initial training, reserves, and active with no discipline whatsoever! Seem they have lacked the purpose, direction and motivation to be a better soldier! I'm glad I get these individuals, because they leave my NCOs with job security! Ur troops are as good as the leadership! Soldiers today need to experience some hardship and some tough love at times! Sure gets their attention to why they took the oath!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 8:34 PM

2015-11-19T20:34:19-05:00

The Guard forces train their soldiers to all be leaders where their training goes above and beyond the working position. Active duty was all about I am in charge and everything is on a need to know business. It may be that the active guard has influenced alot of active duty protocol.

Response by LCpl Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 19 at 2015 9:47 PM

2015-11-19T21:47:46-05:00

its not a matter of losing their bearing as much as the "re-engineering" of the military that has taken place under Obama. To say there has been a RIF is an understatement. I'm sure there are some promotions that were overdue to some people but the placement of certain general and field grade officers because of the color of their skin and demographic has been both blatant and demoralizing. Those who were not RIFed, left the military because of written and unwritten policies now in place. There has always been a certain amount of nepotism in promotions and duty assignments especially in the Guard and Reserves but NOW people who are wholly unqualified for their promotions or to assume command are being assigned key positions based simply on a perceived inequality. Promotions all the way down to the company level are influenced by Obama's directives. Case in point; General Lloyd Austin, commander of US Central Command. Why is that man still in command and in the service? Why are his superiors and his officers still around? It's indicative of the military today. Fear of being labeled. I don't know if I would risk my career either. In the enlisted ranks, It's not military bearing but an arrogance from 1-2 % of the personnel who flaunt their "protected" status and use it to their advantage. Who wants to serve in this kind of military? A fuckup is a fuckup, NOW if the fuckup is part of the "protected" class nothing can be done for fear of being accused of violating someone's Rights.

Response by SFC Karen Lassiter made Nov 25 at 2015 2:05 PM

2015-11-25T14:05:58-05:00

I say no and that the issue is leaders are not leading and teaching like they need too. How can you be losing something you never had?

Response by MSG David Gagnon made Nov 29 at 2015 6:51 AM

2015-11-29T06:51:50-05:00

I agree, but I think the real problem is NCO'S are being stripped of their power to lead and discipline, we are constantly being second guessed by the chain of command, too much CYA, not enough real world training, too concerned about being sensitive and tolerant about everyone's feelings. Officers need to step away and let the rough and tough Sarge's kick ass instead of kissing and covering their own. The NCO is and always will be the "Backbone" of the United States Army, Hooah!

Response by SFC Edwin Watson made Dec 4 at 2015 10:49 AM

2015-12-04T10:49:17-05:00

An atmosphere needs to be developed so that a leader doesn't feel like he needs to talk to JAG before telling a Private that isn't in his unit to tuck his damn bootlaces in. From the mid '90's to today, every time we corrected a trooper, we had to watch our p's and q's because of all the PC bs coming from the top. Before, if an E5 or above walked past troops, they locked their heels at parade rest until he was past or told them to carry on. Now they won't even say hello to him unless they know him.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Dec 23 at 2015 8:43 AM

2015-12-23T08:43:13-05:00

Not necessarily. Some never had it, or didn't learn it properly in OSUT or IET. This is a different brand of Soldier today, one that is in many ways smarter and better socially connected than some of us older folks were or are. There is about the same amount of "But Sergeant, why?" situations, but a lot of the problems boil down to interpersonal trust and respect. They also carry a lot more of the High School drama with them into the Army. Because of the social changes in society during the past few decades, Soldiers today expect to be respected just because they are, rather than because they have earned that respect. This results in situations where a SPC tells me "why should I respect SGT so-and-so? He doesn't respect me". Soldiers today believe (in the support MOSs more than in Combat arms MOSs) that respect is a "tit-for-tat" type of system, and must be told that that is just not so. But then The SGTs involved seem to think that just because they wear stripes that they will automatically be respected. There is a world of difference between respecting the Rank and respecting the Soldier wearing the rank. Personal respect, over and above that required by rank and regulation, is more difficult to earn at any level. Another critical factor is trust. Just as the Soldiers must earn the NCO's trust, so, too must the NCO earn the Soldiers' trust. These two things are critical in any Senior-Subordinate relationship. It is easier to respect someone you trust, than to respect someone you cannot trust. Unfortunately, to compound this, some NCOs mistake Soldiers today for (sadly) a "lesser form of life" rather than the potential contributing elements of our profession. This can be seen (and heard) by hearing how some NCOs deride Soldiers to each other in private .

Response by SFC Jeff Peters made Apr 25 at 2016 6:35 AM

2016-04-25T06:35:16-04:00

At Ft Bragg, it seem that all military bearing has been lost, not just by the soldiers that are joining now but by everyone from private to command sergeant major to generals, the only time anyone in a leadership position wants to try to enforce any military bearing (especially courtesy) is if it is directed at them and then even only when the want to show off.

Response by SrA David Sowles made Mar 26 at 2017 12:10 AM

2017-03-26T00:10:04-04:00

yes

Response by SP5 Robert Ruck made Mar 29 at 2017 10:04 PM

2017-03-29T22:04:46-04:00

Not having been in the military for more than 40 years I can't reply directly to this question. I can only hope it is exaggerated.

Response by CPO Bill Penrod made Apr 1 at 2017 10:12 AM

2017-04-01T10:12:56-04:00

Maybe just maybe America, congress and POTUS have lost it's bearing. They spent more time saying "America is sorry" than planning and winning a war. Will the new POTUS untie our Soldiers hands and say "go get em boys!!" Well see our Soldiers, Sailors, Marines and Air Force is the best trained Military in the world and given the chance they'll prove it.........................

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 1 at 2017 11:52 AM

2017-04-01T11:52:17-04:00

I would agree that Soldiers lack even the basic concept of military bearing. This issue is due to the lack of leadership and disapline at all levels. Let's start with DA, I just watched three Soldiers get promoted to Sergeant that never even attended a recommendation board. This is a leadership issue because those Soldiers should have been denied automatic promotion. This should have been stopped at the squad leader level and should never have passed the Platoon Sergeant and most definitely not the 1SG and Commander. By promoting these Soldiers into the NCO Corp we just told the rest of the formation that promotion will come for doing nothing. These Soldiers were not ready to be promoted and were not vetted. I see NCO's that refuse to make on the spot corrections and I also see senior leaders troubleshoot other senior leaders when these corrections are made, it's crazy. You can't drop Soldiers anymore when in violations of policies or regulations which give the NCO's no way to take quick and decisive actions. Ok that's my rant I have to train my troops.

Response by CPL Brian Howard made Apr 1 at 2017 1:06 PM

2017-04-01T13:06:55-04:00

I think we are getting TOO SOFT on our recruits this will NOT help them to survive adversity

Response by SCPO Morris Ramsey made Apr 1 at 2017 3:28 PM

2017-04-01T15:28:19-04:00

I started noticing these tendicies back in the last century. Especially among senior enlisted serving in staff positions afloat and ashore.

Response by Cpl Scott Lee made Apr 1 at 2017 8:48 PM

2017-04-01T20:48:25-04:00

I assure you the Marine Corps is not having as much of a problem with this than as the other branches

Response by PO3 Patrick King made Apr 2 at 2017 7:24 PM

2017-04-02T19:24:47-04:00

It's all over the Navy. Sadly it is done more by females then males but it's wrong regardless.

Response by Gabriel Volentine made Apr 9 at 2017 3:05 PM

2017-04-09T15:05:03-04:00

Well in jrotc it seems like they need more discipline. I wish to see them join the millitary. And yes

Response by SGT David Lacks made May 5 at 2017 8:27 PM

2017-05-05T20:27:21-04:00

LOSING? Already gone!

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made May 11 at 2018 7:12 PM

2018-05-11T19:12:37-04:00

It seems so to a degree- but I notice it seems to vary from unit to unit.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 29 at 2018 6:16 PM

2018-12-29T18:16:50-05:00

I think our all starts when the new troop arrives at their first base and they say "Yes sir/ma'am" or "No sir/ma'am" and get admonished by some dirtbag NCO with the "Don't call me sir/ma'am, I work for a living!" crap.

Response by SFC Curt Meggers made Dec 29 at 2018 7:13 PM

2018-12-29T19:13:38-05:00

Run in to a young E5 in Michigan at McDonald's he was just sitting there doing nothing in a government vehicle 4 / 45 minutes I went to pull out and he block my way told me I was eyeballing him. I asked him if he had anything else to do his reply was I get a break too. He was very rude and had no military bearing whatsoever

Response by SGT Larry Reed made Dec 29 at 2018 9:13 PM

2018-12-29T21:13:30-05:00

The problem is the Military should be training these sissy's into soldier's. Take away their cell phones etc. during training time.

Response by SSG James Preece made Dec 30 at 2018 7:16 AM

2018-12-30T07:16:51-05:00

Prior to BCT these kids live a particular way and much of it is fostered by parents and their culture. BCT should have been the beginning point of their mental change. The majority of these kids don't have personal discipline or self respect when entering. If that type of behavior continues pass training and isn't corrected in the units leadership is part of the problem.

Response by PFC Elijah Rose made Dec 30 at 2018 4:04 PM

2018-12-30T16:04:40-05:00

People keep using those words as if it actually means something. Lapses in formality equal insubordination? Or are we just bullying each other?

Response by SFC Edwin Watson made Jul 14 at 2019 11:51 AM

2019-07-14T11:51:23-04:00

Part, not all, of the problem is that of senior leadership correcting the subordinate leader in front of their own troops. That gives the private the impression he doesn't have to do what his squad leader tells him to do. It makes it impossible for first line supervisors to accomplish their mission if the chain of command won't back up his authority.

Response by SPC Randall PeQueen made Aug 3 at 2019 4:01 PM

2019-08-03T16:01:56-04:00

Seems like every generation will beat on the 'young' guys coming up as getting softer and softer. I think it's a natural progression of our culture becoming that way. It's sad but it's true.

Response by SPC Roger Giffen made Aug 4 at 2019 7:10 PM

2019-08-04T19:10:34-04:00

I was Army from 74 till 80 and i saw a decline way back then

Response by SSG John Jensen made Oct 1 at 2019 11:09 PM

2019-10-01T23:09:24-04:00

in the shop parts room we found an old M35 wheel bearing that was in a can ( that was the packaging), I commented that it was a can of military bearing, so one of the parts guys made up a label with NSN for Military Bearing and gave it to the shop chief, kept it on his dest 'til he retired.

Response by Amn Michele Garza-Mathis made Oct 1 at 2019 11:23 PM

2019-10-01T23:23:20-04:00

I believe it is this generation. You can have the best NCO’s that has nothing to do with this generation of kids. The standards are being lowered because of this generation of babies! I think it is ridiculous that they can have cellphones in Basic Training! That stuff should be put away until they graduate. They should not have changed to accommodate a generation of cry baby’s.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 2 at 2020 1:21 PM

2020-01-02T13:21:37-05:00

I think there is far too much placating and changing standards to suit the new generation instead of holding this generation responsible for changing their behavior to meet the demands of the military... and that is not a good reflection on those of us in leadership positions (civilian and military).

Response by SPC John Decker made Jan 2 at 2020 2:24 PM

2020-01-02T14:24:41-05:00

From some of the stories I've heard, it seems to me that the concept of individualism, at the lowest levels, has been encouraged too much. Actually, in my opinion, it should not be encouraged until around the E-5/O-3 ranks. Everything below these ranks is a military asset. Not an individual person. Do the job you were trained to do, in the manner you were trained to do it. Go where the military needs you to go. Until you can/have show/n leadership skills, individualism has no place.

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Jan 2 at 2020 11:26 PM

2020-01-02T23:26:57-05:00

Back in the 90’s the powers that be decided promotion quotas needed to be implemented. While doing a Reduction in Forces at the same time.
I saw my fair share of “attitudes” from E-5’s & E-6’s. Because while they had been good leaders. They didn’t fit in the right package. They basically figured that their RIF papers where coming & quit trying.
Instead of focusing on leading their soldiers. They had to figure out how to support a wife & 3 kids. When the army shows them the door.
Military Bearing Definitely Went Out The Window.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 12 at 2020 4:21 PM

2020-04-12T16:21:48-04:00

If your SGTs are not demonstrating military bearing when speaking to a SSG then why would the SPC do it for the SGTs or anyone for that matter It goes down every level

Response by LTC Russ Smith made Apr 13 at 2020 8:00 AM

2020-04-13T08:00:07-04:00

There's something off-putting about a PFC talking to Lieutenant Colonel like they're drinking buddies.

Response by SCPO William Akin made Apr 13 at 2020 4:00 PM

2020-04-13T16:00:21-04:00

I don't know about the Army, but the Navy lost its Military bearing in 1850-51 when 'flogging' was officially abolished..

Response by PO3 Leroy Leftwich made Apr 14 at 2020 11:09 AM

2020-04-14T11:09:12-04:00

I discharged in 1981. Went to Iraq as a civilian truck driver in 07-08. Seen first hand the lack of adherence to the code of conduct.
In my lowly opinion it all starts in boot camp. From day one, who’s in charge?
There is only one in front of me, the COC. Period.
Now I’m sure there are experts that can dissect and point. I live in the real world.
Who’s in charge?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2020 12:01 PM

2020-06-30T12:01:58-04:00

I think the military is failing to evolve. There's only so much of society you can break from a person during IET. Saying people are losing their bearing and the new soldiers have no discipline is a two way street. 1 society has gotten softer and the military tries to be the example for society, but 2 the Army fails to change along with society just as much as it leads the way.
We hold on to archaic practices such as walking on grass, jumping from planes, and drill and ceremonies, rather than realizing that those have nothing to do with being an effective land component force and defending the nation.

People think differently, but the Army wants them to think like its 1846.

Response by Sgt Dale Briggs made Apr 12 at 2022 6:22 PM

2022-04-12T18:22:47-04:00

It’s a snowflake world, the minute you handed a recruit a stress card you lost that battle. That’s the purpose, to weed out those unsuitable, it’s not for everyone, and if everybody passes then the recruitment process has failed. Not for nothing the minimum standards are ridiculously low, and all you did was pass the unsuitable recruit into a fleet unit for some Sgt to struggle with.