Are the police in America becoming too powerful?

2015-08-07T12:16:14-04:00

Before anyone goes off on this, I AM a supporter of the police. Biased as I am towards them being a former MP, I have to ask has the Thin Blue Line become more of a broad stroke with impunity? Has policing in America become more like the policing of the wild, wild west? Or has the internet and social media allowed the masses to see in real time what has been going on for decades?

South Carolina officer shoots unarmed white teen - CNN.com

Zachary Hammond, 19, was on a date July 26 when he was fatally shot twice by a police officer while at the parking lot of a Hardee's in Seneca, South Carolina.

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made Aug 7 at 2015 12:24 PM

2015-08-07T12:24:12-04:00

Are you kidding me right now? No, they are not. If anything, I think that the LE community are out there trying to protect themselves. It seems that everyone wants to argue and fight and resist the Police. What's up with that, anyway? Where is the respect?

Response by 2ndLt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 12:28 PM

2015-08-07T12:28:04-04:00

Im not one to paint with a broad brush. As someone who has family in both Philly PD and Prescott Sheriff's Department, I completely believe that the majority of police are good people.

However with anything healthy you have to expect, and deal with viruses. There are police out there who believe that because they enforce the law, that means they are above it. There are also law enforcement out there who do not understand that every order they give may not be a lawful one (the biggest violation of this I have seen is police telling people to put cameras away).

We also need to have a discussion about how our Police Deparments are armed. There is no reason for regular police officers to be rolling around in MRAPs and walking around looking like theyre DEVGRU. That's what SWAT is for.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 7 at 2015 12:29 PM

2015-08-07T12:29:32-04:00

They are not. They are being weakened due to the misconception they are too powerful. The president alone has undermined law enforcement by his words and actions.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Aug 7 at 2015 12:36 PM

2015-08-07T12:36:26-04:00

SSG Warren Swan - It certainly appears, from the information provided, that the police officer used excessive force/deadly force when it was not warranted. Again, I caveat that with "from the information provided". There will be a complete investigation and appropriate action taken as a result of the investigation.

While this incident and several others that have been in the media are unfortunate, they still represent a very small percentage of officer contacts with the population, the vast majority of which are very professionally handled, even the ones where deadly force is required. Every profession has its bad apples and the police are no exception. In addition, police are human and make mistakes, just like everyone else.

Are the police becoming too powerful? No -- the criminals are. The lawlessness displayed and the disrespect for the police, supported by a "progressive"/permissive society, spurred on by race baiters and liberals, to include our current Administration, is the catalyst for the increasing number of issues we have been seeing.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 7 at 2015 12:43 PM

2015-08-07T12:43:33-04:00

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

There is no such thing as a Good or Bad organization, just organization with strong or weak oversight.

The vast majority of Police (as People) are good, because the vast majority of People are good. This is a simple fact. However, as People, we are social creatures, and we develop communities. We have a tendency to develop "protective structures" within our social networks. Police Communities are no different.

The question of whether the Police is too powerful is actually very simple. If you and a cop go before a Judge, absent any other evidence, who is he going to believe? Think about that question.

Next, think about this. Are the citizenry being used to generate revenue for the state, and are the Police being used as the arm to accomplish that goal? Isn't there something inherently wrong with that philosophy? Isn't there a rabbit-hole of "ethical dilemmas" that can just exist if we chase that rabbit?

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:03 PM

2015-08-07T13:03:58-04:00

SSG James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" Law enforcement get such a bad rap due to the actions of those that misuse their power. Just like all jobs, eventually we all get a little jaded. However, with law enforcement (and even in the military) we do not have the luxury of having an "off day" because that "off day" can result in not only our career but peoples lives or our own. Sometimes society needs a visual reminder of the sacrifices that are made by the men and women we call neighbor, friend or loved one. This life is not for everyone. For every "bad cop" there are hundreds that are good. Unfortunately, it is the bad apples that everyone remembers.

Source: https://www.facebook.com/dan.dickey3/videos/ [login to see] 455553/?pnref=story

Dan Dickey - The Wolfhunter | Facebook

I created this video as a tribute to Law Enforcement. I realize it may stir up many emotions but the video was made to show support and respect for the...

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 1:07 PM

2015-08-07T13:07:51-04:00

I think in some cases this is extremely true, SSG Warren Swan. The power goes to their heads (for some) and that's the beginning of a recipe for potential disaster. Check out this video I happened to see today on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ailk3dxuhA4

Response by CPL Rob N. made Aug 7 at 2015 1:49 PM

2015-08-07T13:49:17-04:00

Since you are retired a LE Officer Sgt David G Duchesneau, correct me if I am wrong, but most specialized training is created to combat a growing and/or persistent problem within the communities that already exists.

Anyone that watches the news today can tell you the crime today is not like it used to be. The types of crimes have escalated as well as the severity of the crimes. Police are out numbered and the workload is increasing mixed with social media and news outlets, it creates what we have today. I don't condone the use of excessive force by any means. It's not like cops didn't start shooting people a few years ago. These things have been going on for as long as there's been cops. Not all cops are "Bad Cops". A few bad apples will spoil the whole bunch.

My personal belief, the training that police cadets receive in an academy is minimal at best. It's much like military training, they can't train for every situation possible, it's not feasible! Something needs to be done to change the level and pertinence of the training that allows more modern day scenarios. More reliable support programs for officers that need help because of on the job injuries (mental/emotional/physical). There are many contributing factors like social media and news outlets taking stories and running them!

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Aug 7 at 2015 2:54 PM

2015-08-07T14:54:06-04:00

Article I thought might be apt.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-watch/wp/2015/08/04/federal-appeals-court-drug-dog-thats-barely-more-accurate-than-a-coin-flip-is-good-enough/

Federal appeals court: Drug dog that’s barely more accurate than a coin flip is good enough

A "search warrant on a leash."

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-08-07T15:13:59-04:00

You might not like my answer but here goes. The biggest problem that I see is that they are put in a active role of enforcement. Police ware originally meant to respond when a crime has happened. To act when a crime has happened. Not to go out and look for problems. For instance the war on drugs.
this was taken from a wiki page so look in to it if you want.
August Vollmer was a leading figure in the development of the field of criminal justice in the United States in the early 20th century and he was against police involvement with the problem of drug addiction. Vollmer wrote that enforcement of moralistic vice laws leads to police corruption and "engenders disrespect both for law and for the agents of law enforcement."Vollmer supported the establishment of federal distribution, at cost, of habit forming drugs. It should be noted, however, that most drugs were not yet made illegal at this time.

Making the consumption of drugs illegal also brought laws that allowed the police forces to take a cut of the drug money the ceased. So then they had to go out looking for "funding" in the form of drug money. Now if we just enforced laws that caused harm like impaired driving (Alcohol or Drugs) or theft you would move the people that can not control their indulgences and harm society. You would have far less reason to have drug enforcers walking the streets protecting the criminals money/drugs. this would move many of the criminal elements in to the public eye. Take a look at the states that legalized weed. If you are not focusing on swat tactics to get criminals then you are teaching Officers how to respond instead of just react. There will always be a need to know how to respond to someone violent but we have trained our cops to respond like troops. If you shoot the knife wielding person in the leg it makes it harder for them to try and attack someone.

Response by SSG John Jensen made Aug 7 at 2015 4:13 PM

2015-08-07T16:13:53-04:00

Craig Peterson recently retired from San Jose's finest and a Vietnam Vet had a Chiquita Banana sticker stuck to the butt of his pistol, when asked about it he would say that it was his banana clip.
We need alot more policemen like him who don't take themselves too seriously

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 7 at 2015 7:57 PM

2015-08-07T19:57:09-04:00

To this question, I would ask this question: have the criminals in America become much better armed, more calloused and indifferent towards human rights, human dignity, and human life, more aggressive - as in deadly - towards police? Have citizens become more disrespectful and interferring? The two duties of police anywhere in this country are to serve and protect the public. Police CANNOT do that job IF they are continually taking Second Place in an effort to placate certain segments of the public or kowtow to social pressures to "be nicer" in the face of mounting dangers. For thirty years, I was very nice to a public that was nice to me. When they weren't, I was firm. That poor, innocent victim of a 20-over speeding ticket often translated firm to mean rude. With bad guys, I only had a two rules: protect myself and others at all cost, and get those bad guys to jail as soon as possible and kept there as long as the courts allowed. Ninety-nine percent of over One Million law enforcement officers in this country today live and work by those same rules. That is not being too powerful. It is being safe and properly doing the job at the same time. During any given eight-hour shift, the job of a "Copper" is still a Wallenda High Wire act of Biblical proportions.

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Aug 7 at 2015 9:10 PM

2015-08-07T21:10:42-04:00

SSG Warren Swan As a long time LEO (started in 85, so I think that qualifies), and I now work in one of the most violent cities in the Nation, I can tell you that society has been slowly degrading it's support for law enforcement to a point where there are entire areas that HATE anything that the Police do, which is absurd. Occasionally (and if you really have any understanding of law enforcement, the percentage is a fraction of a fraction of a percentage) there are bad uses of force by law enforcement. And hopefully, those bad uses of force (which you still have to be damned careful to examine-because in the instant a police officer hesitates, he is dead) are properly investigated, and if criminality uncovered, then disciplinary procedures and/or prosecution when warranted. The problem (and this has been covered to the same level as should a 2nd Lt salute a 1st Lt) is that in modern American society, it is now considered sport to try and catch police encounters on video. The problem with that is that the entire (and I mean the entire encounter) tends not to be filmed, just the highlights. All due respect to our Military Police (and I am a currently serving Security Forces member, which is the Air Force Cops), if you are not actively working the "street", and by that I do not mean Base Housing, your view is narrow. Go work in a major city and see the crime and activity that is going on, and prepare to have your mind blown.

Before I start making assumptions on cases that the media puts on blast, I try and look at the situation in the entirety (which I, just like everyone else, will have a hard time doing, as we were not there). Add to it that witnesses (who were not there) will come forward and lie in an attempt to get the Police in trouble, because they hate the Police, and you have now complicated an already complicated situation.

Cops today have an incredibly hard job, compounded by being tried in the media before the incidents are fully investigated. Whenever excessive force is used, it is tragic-and that does not matter if against ANY particular race, excessive force is wrong. Keep in mind though, when making judgements about the "actions/reactions" of law enforcement officers-they are always behind the reactionary gap, and if they react wrongly, they die. They absolutely have a right to defend themselves up to and including the use of deadly force. The need to use such force must be viewed-not through the eyes of everyone else-but through the eyes of the officer involved-it is his/her perception of a situation that dictates what force to respond with. And to be clear, not too many people have violent encounters with Police when they do as they are asked-and then fight the action in court. Oftentimes the non-compliance of the "offender" began long ago.

In conclusion:
1. No, I do not think that law enforcement is becoming too powerful. I actually tend to think that in the not to distant future, people are going to be in a world of hurt, because there will be more and more police who will not be proactive, because they will have learned from watching their co-workers get dragged through the mud, that career wise, perhaps it would be better to simply try and not do anything that could potentially lead to an encounter, maybe the robbers, rapists and murderers will simply turn themselves in to face charges. If that happens (not being proactive), and I sure as hell hope that it does not, you will see crime rates skyrocket, because criminals, who by the way, do not give a flying crap about anyone, and who are already emboldened, will really let loose.
2. Social media and the news, while showing incidents, do not show the entire incident-start to finish, and they also do not have the same knowledge (for good or bad, limited or extensive) that the officer had going into the situation. They broadcast whatever portion they obtained.

Are there bad cops-sadly, yes. Their career longevity tends to suck, because they do bad things, just like the bad guys. You simply do not see too many happily retired crooks, dealers, pimps etc.

Apologies for ranting a little, but...I do not feel that RallyPoint is the place for dragging the profession of law enforcement through the proverbial mud.

Response by MSgt Erik Copp made Aug 8 at 2015 12:30 PM

2015-08-08T12:30:06-04:00

I think the biggest problem is they forgot they are there to serve the public, not (for lack of better terms) boss you around and use their badge for a power trip. I'm with you, I am a great supporter of the overwhelming majority of police officers. That may be a little of course with your topic. The simple answer to your question in my opinion, yes.

Response by SPC Paul Vaneizenga made Aug 8 at 2015 2:19 PM

2015-08-08T14:19:24-04:00

I respect any man or woman who puts their life on the line to defend another human being. But I have certainly noticed a transition in the police officer's role in America from protecting and serving the every day citizen by any means necessary to a role of protecting the state and local as well as federal political interest. The police officers should NOT be used to collect revenue for the court systems in this country. A police officer should be able to make his or her own judgement calls in every situation they are presented with without having to worry about losing their job over it. We made a huge mistake when we militarized the police.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-08-08T16:58:43-04:00

I think police have the correct amount of power that they need to perform their duties. I was a cop for a while in the past. But what is the issue is how they wield it. Many of them don't understand the implications of what they are doing. There are times when one can take it personal also. But it is a very difficult job. I think there should be a certain mental aptitude required to perform and stay current with it. It just seems like once you are a cop there is little required to maintain your level of proficiency.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Aug 11 at 2015 7:47 AM

2015-08-11T07:47:54-04:00

SSG Warren Swan One of many things that has made and will continue to make our country great is the ability to express your opinion. As a career LEO in and out of the military, I see the 1% of LEOs who are being accused of wrongdoing, overshadowing the favorable and positive actions of the majority of LEOs throughout our great Republic. That said, for officers who are convicted based on proof beyond a reasonable doubt, the punishment should be weighted based not only on the violation committed but also based on the trust violated. There are enhancement offenses throughout the criminal justice system, whether state or Federal. Create one for LEOs who commit crimes under the color of law.

Back to your original question, are the police in America becoming too powerful? No. In fact, because of hiring procedures, cultural stigmas, social pressure, and knee jerk reactions, the LEOs who have sworn to protect and serve are having their ability infringed upon, based on the negative press of the few as opposed to the positive press of the many. We must, first and foremost, police ourselves. Do I dislike body cameras, no. In fact, I welcome it, as one more piece of evidence to be used at prosecution and in protection of me when I am falsely accused. Much like in car video, there will be shocking video on both sides. Just for the sake of remembering, please watch the video pertaining to the murder of Nacogdoches County, Texas Constable Darrell Lunsford (one of the first uses of in car video) and South Carolina State Trooper Mark Coates. Both are tragic. For the most part, over 98%, LEOs place there own lives in jeopardy to protect the public. We don't ask for thanks, we do ask for respect.

The general public should examine all of the facts before making any conclusion. As a LEO I don't make arrests before probable cause is established and I don't expect convictions in cases where the proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt. LEOs deserve this consideration when accused of wrongdoing. Being tried and convicted in the media is not fair and is rarely based on fact.

Lets all just slow down, take a breath, and remember that without the thin Blue Line, there is anarchy. One other sad fact, you cannot remove the human factor from law enforcement or the general public, mistakes will be made.