Are there any issues that would backfire for a man wanting to say he is a woman in the military?

2016-07-02T19:28:29-04:00

I have no issues with transgenders entering the military. I think standards are there for a reason. Meet the standards and you are good to go. But what's to stop every male from saying he is a female to max out the PT test? Are there points in the military that require you to be a specific sex and it would backfire? Otherwise, males who are failing or borderline on the PT test might start doing really well as a woman.

Response by LTC Daniel Rogne made Jul 2 at 2016 7:35 PM

2016-07-02T19:35:41-04:00

Body fat percentage is more relaxed for females as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-07-02T19:41:25-04:00

Really, why is this even asked? Do you really forsee males, because of their borderline pt capabilities wanting to say they are woman? That is so far fetched. Transgender, that is their lifestyle, that is how they identify. It is not a choice of what they think they are. They belive they are born into a body that isn't theirs. This is ridiculous.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 8:52 PM

2016-07-02T20:52:29-04:00

That is indeed a dilemma that would need some forethought from TRADOC now that they are able to enlist. IMO, this is where gender neutral standards need to be implemented. It's only the logical thing to do. Not necessarily the best, but we've already opened the Pandora's Box with female enlistment into the Infantry and 75th Ranger Reg.

I'm new to the Army family and I think it is good for us to have the values of our nation reflect through those who serve as times have indeed changed. The goal of the Army is to Win Americas Wars. Only time will tell if these changes are conducive to the overall goal of our force.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jul 2 at 2016 9:04 PM

2016-07-02T21:04:25-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member This discussion reminds me that my dog needs a shave. You guess where!

Response by PFC Crystal Sprague made Jul 2 at 2016 9:09 PM

2016-07-02T21:09:00-04:00

There is way more to this than someone claiming to be Simone of the opposite gender. They have to spend a year and a half in counseling with a trained physician to make sure that a gender swap is honestly what they need. Not just what they want. There is no way that someone who just wants to pass a PT test easier or make weight and tape easier would be able to pass the rigorous counseling required and quite frankly I don't see anyone trying. If their so lazy as to come up with a scheme to cheat the system by saying they are a woman then they're certainly not ambitious enough to suffer through the 18 month counseling sessions.

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Jul 2 at 2016 9:12 PM

2016-07-02T21:12:37-04:00

Personally, I judge people by their performance. We can guess how a female-trans-male might struggle with lack of upper body strength or some other "prejudice". However, the proof is in the pudding. I well-remember the "bolo" squad, men who simply lacked physical coordination or strength. Remember how you reacted to them? Now, honestly, if you're a heterosexual male, how do you feel when you see two males kissing, holding hands? Seeing a male dressing and acting as a female (and not a stage act)? Most react viscerally. It's neither right nor wrong. It simply is what it is. Intellectualizing about it is all well and good, but men come with a set of preconceived notions and are put off by anything that doesn't fit them. So, it's going to take time to adapt. I doubt if any of us were around when Truman ordered the military to integrate, but you can be damn sure it took time to adapt to that. The same with any change and during the period of adaptation, there will be issues. Transgender service members will be watched like hawks. There will be prejudicial attitudes. You can order the military to "integrate" but you can't order them to like it. They'll come around if the transgender service members perform well. If not, someone else is going to have to reconsider. It simply isn't for us to decide. If it were, I bet there would be no such order, would there? Policies like this always originate with people who won't be living in the same barracks or fighting in the same foxholes, are they? It's all simply an intellectual exercise to them, something driven by their good intentions...

Response by Maj Rob Drury made Jul 2 at 2016 11:06 PM

2016-07-02T23:06:59-04:00

Well, it certainly makes one more good argument for not making different standards for males and femaies.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 11:08 PM

2016-07-02T23:08:10-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member The Fact of the matter is I don't know the what how or why, but I can compare to the Olympic Commission and to the NAACP, both of which cite medical studies saying that the physiology of a man transitioning to a woman or a woman transitioning to a man are identical to that of someone born in that gender and in the same activity level after 12 months of hormone therapy. . . so they allow athletes in their transition gender class after 12 months. I would assume that someone with a lot more medical training than I have will make that call.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2016 11:45 PM

2016-07-02T23:45:59-04:00

Yes for the apft but then height and weight would come and that might be a problem. We have all heard the idea floating around as a joke but the military is going to make a transgender take the apft based on their actual gender

Response by CW2 Shawn Stevenson made Jul 3 at 2016 12:40 AM

2016-07-03T00:40:49-04:00

I have always thought there should only be one pt standard regardless of age or gender. Maybe the pt standards should be based off of MOS or CMF?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 12:47 AM

2016-07-03T00:47:12-04:00

On the USAF PT test: a male can have a maximum abdominal circumference of 39" and has to have a 35" or smaller abdominal circumference to get maximum points in that category. A female can have a maximum abdominal circumference of 35.5" and has to have a 31.5" or smaller abdominal circumference to get maximum points in that category. Considering that abdominal circumference makes up 20% of the composite score, and considering that lots of males have waists that are under 35" but not lots of males have waists under 31.5", most males would be better off sticking with the male standards.

Response by SGT Laura Delgadillo made Jul 3 at 2016 12:55 AM

2016-07-03T00:55:22-04:00

All service members will follow the standards of their gender in DEERS, in order to change that there is a long process which requires commander, PCM, and having gender marker changed in either their birth certificate or passport. Which is not easy.

Source
DoDI 1300.28 regarding in-service gender transition
I changed all my legal documents including birth certificate and passport.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Jul 3 at 2016 1:43 AM

2016-07-03T01:43:45-04:00

HAHA. SGT Private RallyPoint Member . The details are being worked out. If someone came to me obviously pretending to be a woman, I would tell them to report in lipstick and high heels for inspection every day for the rest of their tour!

In real life, transgender men didn't make a decision and don't change their minds every other Tuesday. They were born with a male brain, and throughout childhood, they were told to wear dresses. About the time of middle school, a kid begins to understand things. Wouldn't you be really pissed if you were treated like a girl when you know you're really a boy?

For TG people, this isn't a joke. They know that plenty of heterosexual bigots hate them more than they hate gays, and they're liable to be beaten, fired, raped or killed if they are discovered.

And by the way, transgender people are not gay. A TG man (born female) likes girls, just like you and I do. Just thought I'd throw that in for anyone who reads this.

Response by Maj Kim Patterson made Jul 3 at 2016 2:18 AM

2016-07-03T02:18:15-04:00

SGT Private RallyPoint Member Peanut gallery here: finding black pumps might be a problem and then dressing appropriately for military functions such as Dining Ins or Award Banquets. I volunteer around town and see some of the younger women trying to "walk" in 5" heels and 3 inches of spandex. I would find that a problem for just about anyone but I keep seeing it. Watching them walk up the marble staircase at the Historical Theater to get to the restroom makes me want to get trapeze netting. I couldn't do it. I am forced to watch because someone must be ready to render aid.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 2:44 AM

2016-07-03T02:44:15-04:00

The following is from my reply on the same topic on another thread:

We were discussing this as an office the other day. The general consensus was...
Male identifies as a female when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender male will be addressed as a female, be subject to female grooming standards, allowed to use female latrine, etc.
2) Use the female scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be easy for the transgender male because regardless of hormone therapy their bone/body structure is still male and the male center of gravity is higher than in females. This is why females have less difficulty with the sit-up event (their hips give then a lower center of gravity) and why males have an easier time with he push-up event.
3) Use the female scoring standards for HT/WT. This is where the major issues come into play. Females have higher body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the male physique. Additionally, the transgender male will have to weigh less as the female weight standard allows considerably less weight than the male standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender males.

Female identifies as a male when entering the military:
1) For records purposes a transgender female will be addressed as a male, be subject to male grooming standards, allowed to use male latrine, etc.
2) Use the male scoring standards for APFT: Theoretically this should be hard for the transgender female because regardless of hormone therapy their structure is still female. Remember the explanation in #2 above.
3) Use the male scoring standards for HT/WT. Again, this is where the major issues come into play. Males have lower body fat % allowance but their measurements are not designed for the female physique. Additionally, the transgender female will have to weigh more as the male weight standard allows considerably more weight than the female standard. The weight will be difficult to meet for some transgender females as there is a minimum weight for both males and females in military service.

In reality, for the reasons mentioned above, and reasons yet to be known, it will be years of trail and error on military leadership to come up with new/additional standards for transgender individuals.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 3:04 AM

2016-07-03T03:04:09-04:00

Don't worry the answer to this question will be in your annual transgender AKO training.

Response by SSG Michael LeGrand made Jul 3 at 2016 6:15 AM

2016-07-03T06:15:26-04:00

Its madness that we have to even entertain conversations like this these days. If it was up to me, I would say whatever you were born as is how the military will identify you. Regardless of what you choose to become later in life or what you choose to identify yourself as.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 3 at 2016 11:26 AM

2016-07-03T11:26:13-04:00

I wonder if they will force biological females to room with TG females who still have male genetalia in deployed locations. I have a problem with that.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Jul 3 at 2016 12:17 PM

2016-07-03T12:17:46-04:00

Currently it is not a protected EO category. If it becomes one, a Soldier can pick and choose when it is advantageous to their position to do it for whatever purposes and there is nothing new stopping them. Billeting, assignments, PT & HT/WT, anything imaginable where gender matters can be taken advantage of.
Whenever $ is involved you'll have someone willing to game the system and that is human nature. Look no further than the disability system if you disagree.
If all you have to do is go to the doc and make a claim. That is going to quickly change 600-9 standards for those about to be separated. Maybe their hormones are fine, but now they can change the whole chart. Easy choice for a SM over 10 years, but not yet retirment eligible who will receive chump change if separated.

If it becomes EO or when it does you have a massive issue as no one can be the honest broker. You cannot tell a Soldier they are not Hispanic or not a Muslim and so you cannot tell a male he is not a female with a different standard. Go ahead and change all the standards now and save the time.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jul 3 at 2016 12:23 PM

2016-07-03T12:23:17-04:00

Because of all the other systemic and cultural pressures that come along with being a Transgendered Individual.

Do you really think someone is going to conform to all the other gender standards "just" to get a better PFT score?

Do you know what kind of crap you would have to go through on a daily basis. Seriously. Living as the opposite gender for what should be a minor bump in #^&$ Health Test?

This is the kind of ignorant BS that continues to piss me off. Why the crap is a PFT "score" so $&*%^& important? Seriously. A person can either perform their function or they cannot. If they cannot, we're going to get rid of them. If they can, the scores "should" reflect that, and if they don't, the metrics are flawed and be replaced with ones that do.

CC: CW2 Lindsey Muller

Response by Capt Vickie Adams made Jul 3 at 2016 12:42 PM

2016-07-03T12:42:44-04:00

Women in the military are still discriminated against. AND they apparently are going to provide hormone therapy...would you like your nads to shrink? Maybe you are transgendered and just don't want to admit it? (Just kidding!) I see absolutely NO benefits.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jul 4 at 2016 12:24 AM

2016-07-04T00:24:36-04:00

This is a stupid question that should never have been posted at all.

Response by SSG Randall P. made Jul 6 at 2016 10:46 AM

2016-07-06T10:46:57-04:00

Excerpt from a post I saw on Imgur

There is no written rule that boys like sports and girls like dolls. If you don't meet your gender's stereotypes, you shouldn't have to make up a new one just for you.

Instead of getting society to accept new genders, you should get society to get rid of stereotypes of how genders should be.

I don't care if this gets downvoted to oblivion, it's just my opinion that I needed to get out of my chest.

Sauce http://imgur.com/account/favorites/Y4FxZ

Imgur

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 6 at 2016 4:04 PM

2016-07-06T16:04:21-04:00

I've seen some pretty ridiculous ways of getting out of taking a PT test, but I don't know a single man who would claim to be a woman to get an easier standard. The type of man who thinks like that is the type of man who does not value women as his equal. Therefore, the type of man to think like that would never "lower" himself to the level of being a woman, no matter how much he sucks at PT.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Jul 11 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-07-11T19:15:04-04:00

Just to point out something. TG people don't "want to say" he's a woman. You either are one or you are not one. It's not like changing your shoes.

Response by PO1 Kerry French made Mar 4 at 2017 11:30 PM

2017-03-04T23:30:17-05:00

He can say he is a ham sandwich for all I care - doesn't make it so. Mental illness is not funny and you cannot change your DNA.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 11 at 2017 12:27 PM

2017-04-11T12:27:01-04:00

I do have a problem with the entire LGBT lobby and say that we should go back to the 1970s and earlier when it was illegal to be gay and in the military and I am tired of all the political correctness I was detailed to help rid Fort Sam Houston of gays and lesbians while stationed there and that is what needs to be done military wide and we need to go back to the 40s and 50s when it was illegal in all states