Are there any orders you wouldn't follow? What would make you draw the line and say “No I will not obey that order”?

PFC Eric Minchey — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 20:09:08 -0500

Reading the story (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hiroo_Onoda) of Hiroo Onoda, an Imperial Japanese Army officer who remained at his jungle post on an island in the Philippines for 30 years, refusing to believe that World War II was over, fighting a guerrilla war & his belief that doing so was “accomplishing my duty.”

Got me wondering: when does following orders become crazy and stupid? What do you all say? Are there any orders you wouldn't follow, what would make you draw the line and say “No I will not obey that order”? Are there any orders you would consider wrong/unconstitutional/unlawful/immoral etc?

Hiroo Onoda) - Wikipedia

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 8:47 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 20:47:38 -0500

Absolutely. Without any question. My purpose in the military did not include committing war crimes. I draw the line where our agreements draw the line.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2014 9:02 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 21:02:05 -0500

<p>Any order that violates any portion or amendment to the Constitution of the United States of America.  </p><p><br></p><p>We take an Oath of Enlistment, Oath of Re-Enlistment, or Oath of Office when we enter the Military, re-enlist into the Military, or accept a commission as an Officer.  If you take that oath seriously, as it is meant to be, you will not have to wonder if your orders are lawful or not.  This of course assumes you have a good understanding of our Constitution (to which you are swearing an oath to support and defend) and our history as a nation.</p><p><br></p><p>If you have not read our Constitution, and especially the Bill of Rights (Amendments 1-10) yet, I HIGHLY suggest you do so.</p><p><br></p>

Response by PFC Eric Minchey made Jan 17 at 2014 9:20 PM

PFC Eric Minchey — Fri, 17 Jan 2014 21:20:56 -0500

Regardless of his position as our enemy during WW2, I will salute his courage, no matter how fruitless it was, he held his post ----Rest in Peace Hiroo Onoda.

Response by SSG Andrew Dydasco made Jan 18 at 2014 1:30 AM

SSG Andrew Dydasco — Sat, 18 Jan 2014 01:30:35 -0500

Absolutely.  Anything illegal, immoral, unethical, or unsafe.  Of course, I will always refuse respectfully.  I've been ordered to drive large military vehicles in high traffic areas without a ground-guide or TC.  That is just one example of an order that I [respectfully] refused to carry out.  In the end, whoever gave you the order might be a little bitter, but you won't get in any trouble.  Quite the contrary, actually; you might be praised for doing the right thing instead of succumbing to the pressure of following an order you know is wrong.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 18 at 2014 2:22 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 18 Jan 2014 02:22:39 -0500

Sometimes the choices may be controversial with no time to really consider it's ramifications. A pilot or Wing Commander does not like W0X0F (socked in with fog) or severe icing. That kind of does it and I would not and did not capitulate and cancel a significant warning.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Jan 18 at 2014 8:18 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Sat, 18 Jan 2014 20:18:45 -0500

There's one I've been forced to disobey for almost 15 years now. You'll hear it at most every ceremony or special event. "Bow your head in prayer".
Yeah, no. If I wanted to do that, I'd have joined the Seminary... I shouldn't have to be forced to genuflect before your personal deity of choice.

Response by SSG Shawn M. made Jan 18 at 2014 8:26 PM

SSG Shawn M. — Sat, 18 Jan 2014 20:26:09 -0500

I'm sure the majority of service members don't obey Article 125 of the UCMJ: Sodomy. This brings up another debate but can the Military still enforce this with the repeal of DADT?

Response by SSG Robert Burns made Jan 19 at 2014 1:35 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 01:35:12 -0500

I will not follow any order making me cheer for the Cowboys.  Wont do it.  Bring on the firing squad.

Response by MAJ Joseph Parker made Jan 19 at 2014 2:34 AM

MAJ Joseph Parker — Sun, 19 Jan 2014 02:34:38 -0500

<p>PFC Minchey: One order almost every service member gets but almost never disobeys is the falsification of reports, especially readiness reports. Officers are the worst and they are the ones who should be insuring these reports are accurate. The usual rationalization is that "the equipment would be ready if" or "nobody really checks that", when in fact the reality is "I'll get in trouble if somebody sees that number". These kind of "small potatoes" add up. </p><p><br></p><p>It was a constant battle my entire career to submit reports with news nobody wanted and sickening to see how easily officers, who are supposed to the embodiment of honor, could lie on reports when told to do so. Then one day I stumbled onto the magic, sincere phrase that worked even with 4 stars: "Sir, I cannot affix my signature to a false or misleading report. If you have an officer that will, then he may do the report. Otherwise sir, this report is complete."  </p><p><br></p><p>How about it, current active duty? Please tell me I am wrong and the service is better now.</p>

Response by SPC Gary Basom made Jan 20 at 2014 1:02 AM

SPC Gary Basom — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 01:02:23 -0500

An illegal order is defined in the articles of war, code of conduct and what the content of the order ensues. You are obliged to follow said order, if it is indeed illegal, it is your duty to point that out to any officer in charge. Whether you decide to execute it or not is your decision, if you know it to be illegal, immoral or violates COC, law of war,etc. It does not relieve you of the liability. This question is best answered by a JAG officer.

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Jan 20 at 2014 2:57 AM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Mon, 20 Jan 2014 02:57:12 -0500

I refuse to assist the federal government on dismantling the 2nd Amendment in what ever form that may be if ordered to. I do not think I will have to worry about that until long after I retire. Times are changing; we are loosing our rights slowly but surely and that is who it happens. I hope the government will not use it's soldiers to do its unethical and immoral tasks.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2014 2:55 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 21 Jan 2014 14:55:57 -0500

I took a summarized Article 15 as a PFC for refusing to drive when I knew I was drunk.  My 1SG told me he was proud of me, and if I hadn't told that Lieutenant to kiss my ass, I wouldn't have gotten the summarized Article 15 I did get.<div><br></div>

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Mar 30 at 2014 8:18 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Sun, 30 Mar 2014 20:18:18 -0400

I will only relate what I thought was a very funny situation from many, many years ago.

It starts with..A long time ago, in a country far, far away, Okinawa, 1987. There was a young LCpl, name is unimportant. He was standing ADNCO (Assistant Duty NCO) in the Barracks. The shift was ending, and the CO and a MGySgt were making the rounds. As it happened, they went to tour this particular Barracks. As they approached up the sidewalk, the MGySgt noticed that there were cigarette butts on the deck, not in the butt can. He promptly ordered that the LCpl pick up the butts, to which the LCpl replied he would not, as he did not smoke and that the smokers should police their own butts. This was probably the first time in years that the MGySgt had heard the words NO come from a troop, and it blew his mind. There was a supreme barrage of expletives, orders and gestures, which began to draw some crowd. Other Marines jumped in and quickly policed the area. The LCpl was brought up on charges, busted to PFC. He did not care, was making a point, standing his ground and fighting what he felt was a legit battle. He won, but lost. He was getting out of the Corps in about a month, so to him it was worth it. I can say this. For the remainder of his time, he could not pay for his own beer.

My point is this. You can make a stand based upon what you think is right. You may win, you may lose. You have to decide what is worth fighting and what is not. In most cases, if you "take on " City Hall, you lose. Choose wisely.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Mar 31 at 2014 5:39 PM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Mon, 31 Mar 2014 17:39:31 -0400

Many, many years ago, while both my husband and I were at Cherry Point, there was a C130 that had a certain problem.  Now, my husband was a 'winger' who took great pride in the fact that the C130 units had not lost an aircraft to anything but enemy fire since Vietnam, and he loved those aircraft, still does, really, but the point I am making is that one day, he had a problem he simply felt was unsafe on a C130, and he stated this problem, pointing out the hazard to the crew.  <div>   They, as most air crews do, listened quite attentively and they refused to fly it, until it was repaired.   The OIC came at my husband like a ton of bricks, demanding he sign off on the aircraft repair that he hadn't finished without the parts they were waiting on, saying that it would, in his view, manage the refuling mission easily and be back for further repairs.</div><div>   Again, my husband refused, and it ended with the officer literaly screaming in his face that he would face a court martial for refusing the command.  End result was that the higher ups agreed with my husband, and the officer was sent to Greenland as I recall.</div><div>   The point is, I have to believe that, given an order  that went against my own beliefs, I would probably ask for clarification of said order, and if I believed that order went against what I felt to be moral or ethical, I'd respectfully refuse to obey, because in the end, I have to look in the mirror a lot more than I have to look at a C.O, now, don't I?</div>

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made Apr 5 at 2014 8:44 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 20:44:42 -0400

Nuremberg Trials pretty well set the benchmark for that. Killing Non-Combatants for no apparent reason although I am sure my actions have resulted in the deaths of Non-Combatants. Abusing a POW. I have no patience or tolerance for bullies and thugery especially while in uniform.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2014 4:54 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Apr 2014 16:54:20 -0400

I have 10 Specific Oders that I won't obey. You can read them by googling Oathkeepers. Those are subject to change as the Constitution may change with amendments over time. However, as of today, those orders I will not obey.

Response by Cpl Westin Sandberg made Sep 22 at 2014 1:08 AM

Cpl Westin Sandberg — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 01:08:00 -0400

PFC, that is a very good question, to answer that, i think you have to look inside yourself. We can all say what is Immoral and unethical orders. And with diligence and self-discipline we can all learn to recognize an unlawful order.

As far as the issue goes regarding Mr Onoda, you have already been given such an order under the American Code of Conduct; "I will never surrender myself or my men to the enemy, so long as they are still capable of fighting." In that context, it's up to us all to decide when we are "no longer capable of fighting". For me however, so long as i have breath in my lungs, and a beat in my heart, I am still capable of fighting. OOHRAH.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 22 at 2014 1:14 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 01:14:21 -0400

I won't follow any order that violates ROE or any other law or precedent that takes that precedes the regulations or orders given. During the Nuremburg trials all of the Nazi leaders tried to defend their actions by stating they were only following orders. At the end of the day they had a rope around their neck.

Response by SSG Laureano Pabon made Sep 22 at 2014 2:30 AM

SSG Laureano Pabon — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 02:30:49 -0400

An order that will execute innocent civilians would be one order that I would not follow.

Response by SFC William "Bill" Moore made Sep 22 at 2014 7:05 AM

SFC William "Bill" Moore — Mon, 22 Sep 2014 07:05:15 -0400

Any order contrary to the Constitution! The first two should be near and dear to every American.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 4:48 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 16:48:03 -0400

PFC Minchey--yes, have done it several times. Often, simply by modifying the order, sometimes by directly challenging it, which is lots of fun. No one likes being challenged. The time to act is not just when you don't understand the order--the true intent--and you've sought clarification--but when you know in your heart and by your training that the order is not legal, as in a moral imperative. In my field, if you would not be proud of tonight's headline on international news you'd better think twice. In the case of Hiroo Onoda, we can admire his sense of duty and honor "not to quit his post until properly relieved". Many see that as fanatical, yet it was a trait inborn and inculcated into the Japanese warrior culture. Maybe it did turn into a crazy compulsion, but I think not. I interviewed several men like him when I lived in Tokyo as a Stars and Stripes correspondent, and walked away impressed.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 4:56 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 16:56:11 -0400

PFC Minchey--I think your question, as you presented it with an example, is the most thought provoking question I've read thus far. Keep it up!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 24 at 2014 9:34 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 Oct 2014 21:34:01 -0400

On the flightline we have a "Knock it off" policy. The phrase changes from base to base, but the concept remains the same.

If you see someone messing up, tell them, regardless of rank. As well, you have the right to say "no" if its within reason, i.e. violating tech data, someone telling you something that seems immoral or incorrect, so on.

Basically I'll do anything within my power to make the mission happen. But if someone tells me to do something I find morally or ethically wrong, I draw a line, and pull in reinforcements (the E-7's and aboves for example) for backup. A good unit, supervisor, or workplace will have your back as long as your respectful and within your rights.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 27 at 2014 4:12 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Oct 2014 16:12:06 -0400

I'm pretty sure in Basic Training they cover illegal orders and your responsibility to NOT follow them. It also comes up in the regular Law of War briefs that we have to attend.

Illegal orders (those that would have you violate a fellow American's constitutional rights would be illegal as well) aside , if it's a lawful order, there shouldn't be any ifs ands or buts about it. Unless it's illegal, we don't get to pick and choose to obey an order because we don't feel like it or agree with it on a personal level.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 17 at 2015 8:51 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 17 Dec 2015 08:51:35 -0500

1984, shiny new A1C at my first duty station. Our section chief, CPT Hooper, ordered me to go to the BX and pick up his dry cleaning. It was not pretty. Fortunately the XO had more sense. I told him afterwards that if the CPT had ASKED me to do it, I probably would have, but the guy phrased it as a direct order. What a tool.

Response by TSgt Eddie Mixon made Dec 26 at 2016 1:11 PM

TSgt Eddie Mixon — Mon, 26 Dec 2016 13:11:51 -0500

While stationed in RAF Lakenheath, we got a call that a jet had been towed to the wash rack with load of training bombs still loaded. They told my crew to download so the plane could be cleaned and the BDU's sent back to storage. I told them I would not do it until it was towed back to the flight line or an authorized loading area. The E6 in charge insisted I do it there. I called my CMSgt, told him what was going on. He talked to the MSgt and a tow crew was on the way in 5 minutes.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2017 1:52 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 05 Jan 2017 13:52:51 -0500

Illegal, Immoral, Unethical, or Unlawful. Those are the ONLY circumstances under which you are allowed to disobey an order.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 15 at 2018 12:36 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 12:36:22 -0400

By regulations you have the right to refuse any order you deem as "Illegal" , the catch 22 is that the Court-martial better agree with you.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Mar 15 at 2018 1:42 PM

SN Greg Wright — Thu, 15 Mar 2018 13:42:39 -0400

Absolutely. Illegal orders.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 16 at 2018 4:29 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 16:29:40 -0400

To quit my post only when properly relieved...may apply.

Response by CPT Don Kemp made Mar 16 at 2018 8:49 PM

CPT Don Kemp — Fri, 16 Mar 2018 20:49:38 -0400

Interesting to read this question today....the 50th Anniversary of the My Lai massacre. 50 years ago, Lt. Hugh Thompson parked his helicopter between advancing American troops and Vietnamese civilians. This is moral courage.
I pray if I were ever in a similar situation, I’d have the moral courage, the integrity, the character to do what is right even in the face of extreme opposition.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2018 3:40 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 27 Aug 2018 15:40:40 -0400

The abuse of Medically Non Deployable Soldiers, by the CA Army National Guard, is something I'm fighting now. https://www.rallypoint.com/answers/is-an-order-that-violates-army-regulations-and-exceeds-the-authority-of-the-issuer-unlawful?urlhash=3914816

Is an order that violates Army regulations, and exceeds the authority of the issuer, "unlawful"?...

What do you do when your state military department, imposes an "unlawful" order, that violates Army regulations (at least 40-501, 600-20, and 135-91) and after bringing it to your IG, the DAIG, and the office of Congressman Ami Bera, no one is willing to take the appropriate corrective measures? (In 2013, a two star general exceeded his authority, and completely reversed the requirement for Medically Non Deployable Soldiers to perform their AT...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2021 5:05 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 May 2021 17:05:52 -0400

Once, while serving as color guard, for the us army chaplains and chaplains assistant school at Fort Monmouth, NJ, I was ordered to remove my wedding ring . I rid but immediately put it back on when the officer walked away. Nothing was ever said after the ceremony.

Response by SSG James Nelson made Jun 4 at 2021 8:43 AM

SSG James Nelson — Fri, 04 Jun 2021 08:43:09 -0400

Murder of Civilian Non Combat Personal

Response by SPC Allen Werth made Aug 18 at 2021 10:18 AM

SPC Allen Werth — Wed, 18 Aug 2021 10:18:30 -0400

Only when the regulations were on my side and then only for a good cause. You need to consider the totality of the circumstances, you duty, and you backside. But yes there is a time and place to do so.