Are verbal confirmations (VOCOs) legally binding direct orders under UCMJ?

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 07:12:00 -0500

If the Commander supposedly gives a VOCO to not do something, but does not put it in writing, email, or policy letter, and someone else tells us the Commander gave a VOCO, are we legally bound under UCMJ to follow it?

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2020 7:12 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 07:12:57 -0500

What regulation or part of UCMJ discusses this?

Response by PO3 Phyllis Maynard made Feb 2 at 2020 7:44 AM

PO3 Phyllis Maynard — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 07:44:26 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member this is a good question. When I was in the military, it was all about documentation. The paper trail was a biggie. Why don't you get someone not associated with you or your military service to do some inquiry, say to the Department of Defense. This will prevent tricky entanglements for you.

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Feb 2 at 2020 7:46 AM

MAJ Bryan Zeski — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 07:46:54 -0500

For me, the real question is: Does the person giving YOU the order - written or verbal - have that authority? If yes, then you should follow it. If no... well, then you could just go ask your immediate boss what to do.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2020 8:27 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 08:27:38 -0500

Some context is needed. We had our battalion commander walk out during a Friday formation and tell us that strip clubs were off limits and if any of our battalion was found in then they were going to be punished with a FG ART15. During the next few months before we deployed this never got challenged I wouldn't have wanted to be the one challenging this up to the Brigade commander. As Major Zeski already mentioned the true question is does the person have the legal authority to give orders? In our case only the post commander could legally put establishments off limits, but no one wanted to challenge the battalion commander on his policy so in effect he won.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Feb 2 at 2020 8:31 AM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 08:31:26 -0500

The non attorney spokesperson answer is Yes it counts legally.
There is no mention in the MCM, or any reg I have every read that states a legal order must be communicated in a particular way.
That said, of course it is a more difficult deal to hold someone accountable for not obeying a verbal order, more so if the verbal order was passed on by another... That difficult in good evidence for prosecution not withstanding, it is in this non lawyer's opinion and personal observation of 28 years military service ..that yes... verbal confirmations (VOCOs) are legally binding direct orders under UCMJ.

Someones legal defense lawyer for what ever they are being accused of may have a different opinion, good luck at the trial....

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2020 8:40 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 08:40:04 -0500

UCMJ ART 92: "having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces and fails to obey the order."

Regardless if it was "someone else" telling you about it, you now have knowledge of it.
If the VOCO was legal, moral and ethical, then failing to obey it is punishable under UCMJ.

If you really feel that this "someone else" was lying or misinterpreted the Commander, ask the Commander for clarification.

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Feb 2 at 2020 8:46 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 08:46:13 -0500

I'd say a verbal order from a superior officer, unless it is illegal, will stand. Orders do not have to be in writing, can you imagine that shit show? Most orders are never written, they are spoken. Do this, do that, don't do this, don't do that etc. If you heard the order and it is legal and you don't follow it you will not like the outcome.

Response by COL Steph Browne made Feb 2 at 2020 9:11 AM

COL Steph Browne — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 09:11:59 -0500

Yes

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2020 9:12 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 09:12:32 -0500

Luckily, I am not on trial lol, just learning the ins and outs of UCMJ

Response by MAJ Javier Rivera made Feb 2 at 2020 9:28 AM

MAJ Javier Rivera — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 09:28:03 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, you might want to pick AR 600-20 and take a glimpse on Para 4-2. Also, since SGM Erik Marquez brought in the conversation, perhaps a glimpse on the Manual of Court Martial (MCM) would be of good book as part of your professional reading.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 2 at 2020 9:41 AM

SSG Brian G. — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 09:41:39 -0500

Yes. An order is an order whether it is given verbally or in written form. And it holds up under UCMJ quite nicely. And it is not just from a commander. NCOs get that nifty bit too. Key thing is, as long as the person outranks you. And yes, second hand counts as well.

Response by COL R. Bruce Chisholm made Feb 2 at 2020 12:35 PM

COL R. Bruce Chisholm — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 12:35:38 -0500

Acronym check. VOCO in 1982 meant Verbal Order Commanding Officer. I received a DA Form 4187 advancing me to Specialist 4 under Army Regulation 625-100 or some other number lost to memory. The next day I received a near identical form laterally transferring me to a different paragraph and line number (of our MTOE) From Specialist 4 to Corporal (Verbal Order Commanding Officer). The company commander VOCOed me and the 4187 made it real. I used it to get a new (typed on a typewriter) ID card. I then went back to cleaning my assigned musket.
See AR 600-8-106 Military Orders:
2–14. Authority to issue verbal orders
When situations demand immediate action, normally in combat situations, commanders with authority to issue written orders may issue verbal orders.
a. When the verbal order involves expenditure of public funds, the commander will issue confirmatory orders within 30 calendar days. If the written order is issued more than 30 calendar days after the effective date of the verbal order, the commander will provide written justification for the delay and the action taken to prevent recurrence to the servicing finance office and the next higher official. The finance office will file the explanation as a substantiating document with the order.
b. Include a notation in the confirmatory orders as a response to the Authority lead line, “This order confirms verbal orders of (the CG or commanding officer) given on (date verbal orders were given).” If there is no Authority lead line for the format used, include the information as a response to the Effective date lead line. When preparing DD Form 1610, include this information in item 16.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Feb 2 at 2020 1:15 PM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 13:15:20 -0500

Without a doubt.

Response by CPL Gary Pifer made Feb 2 at 2020 4:35 PM

CPL Gary Pifer — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 16:35:14 -0500

Hell yeah... especially if it's a Sgt Major.

Response by SFC James Welch made Feb 2 at 2020 5:25 PM

SFC James Welch — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 17:25:43 -0500

What has happened to the Army that an Officer asks a question like this ?

Response by SSG Dale London made Feb 3 at 2020 9:45 AM

SSG Dale London — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 09:45:47 -0500

Yup

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Feb 3 at 2020 8:17 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 20:17:59 -0500

Please by now 1LT should a) Know the answer or b) know what regulation to find it. Check UCMJ Article on disobeying an order- Don't believe you will find anything on how is was delivered, cause that it was given, acknowledge and then dis regarded.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2020 11:34 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 11:34:40 -0500

hey, CPT Sobel called and sent a runner.....

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 4 at 2020 11:48 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 04 Feb 2020 11:48:55 -0500

Call me cynical but with vocal orders, what is to prevent some douchebag and one of his flunkies just making some crap up to screw over someone they don't like? Captain Sobel called AND sent a runner.....

Response by MAJ James Woods made Mar 14 at 2020 3:05 PM

MAJ James Woods — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 15:05:29 -0400

VOCO stands for Verbal Order by the Commanding Officer. At least it did when I was still in. So technically it is legally binding under UCMJ in most situations. But typically it’s followed up by written orders or directives based on the nature of the order.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 14 at 2020 4:01 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 16:01:47 -0400

You know, before computers, folks were transferred around the world by VOCO. If you are told about it then its legal and UCMJ if you fail to follow it

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 14 at 2020 5:49 PM

Maj John Bell — Sat, 14 Mar 2020 17:49:28 -0400

Yes

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Apr 10 at 2020 4:41 AM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Fri, 10 Apr 2020 04:41:49 -0400

There was a squadron commander (major), who believe everything out of his mouth was a direct order. His POV came up one morning with a hole the size of either a .22LR or 5.56 ball round thru his rear wind shield. 1st, he accused me of the shooting. Then said he directed me to go and put a fix on that rear wind shield. I told this major, he was giving me an illegal order. And that I had the right to refuse that illegal order. 2. That same afternoon, this major had began article 15 proceedings against me for disobediance of "his" orders. Since we were both in the Wing Headquarters Squadron, it was the Wing Commander's perogative to approve all Article 15 procceedings. When he saw my name on the Article 15 papers, his laughter could be heard throughout the entire Headquarters building! Saying if Ssgt d'Errico missed his target, he must have been asleep, in a ditch, in a fog, two miles away! He grilled the major for issuing an illegal order really good!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 28 at 2020 8:57 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 20:57:51 -0400

I've only heard of VOCO in relation to travel orders, and hell yeah I'd disobey those, because if the person giving me the verbal order doesn't have the authority, I'm still on the hook for the cost of travel, and possibly UCMJ action for improper use of my GTCC. I don't travel for the military without written orders because it's my financial and legal neck on the line. If it's that urgent, they can get me written orders.