Are we creating a generation of entitled Veterans?

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 14:56:28 -0400

Recently I was talking with my brother who works for a medical supply company. The topic of hiring Veterans came up.
He talked about how many of the veterans that his company hires are lazy, lack loyalty, and feel that they are entitled. They show up late, miss deadlines, and constantly need supervision.
The turn over rate for these veterans is significantly higher than other employees. These are not wounded veterans, whom his company makes accommodations for, nor are they combat vets. These are service members that have completed thier initial enlistment, many of whom never left the country.
Essentially, these vets feel and act as if they deserve a job, and that this company should feel privileged to have them work there.
So my question is, are we creating a generation of entitled Veterans?

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Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:01 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:01:41 -0400

I'm unconvinced. The veterans I know and work with feel lucky they have a job, and NONE of us feel entitled to any position. Over-qualified, sometimes. But entitled? This is the first I'm hearing of it.

Frankly, veterans are lucky to have a job. In my area, veteran support is minimal, and does little to set us apart from other job seekers. Are we inherently better than other job candidates? not at all, and I've not heard this expressed except in specific employment related scenarios.

In my area, we have it about as hard as everyone else. We're not special, and employers are quick to let us know that by NOT hiring us. And we know it.

**I understand this is a small window into this issue. Just my perspective.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:04 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:04:51 -0400

I have run into something similar to this - well, the significant other has. She works for the Dept of the Interior - USGS. She is a contracted worker, but the USGS is trying to get rid of all the contracted workers & bring them all "in-house". She was told to apply for a position created specifically for her. She did. She was beat out for the position - one that she had been working 5 years - by a veteran who rescheduled his interview three times, showed up late, and then only stayed on the job for 2 months before quitting when he didn't get what he explained to the supervisor out there, "his due".

While he was there, it was felt around the office that he wanted special treatment & that he should have supervisory duties because he was a squad leader while in. I never met the gentleman, but sounds like a grand case of entitlement to me.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:09 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:09:47 -0400

I feel we are and aren't. I still think that positions to be hired for you must meet the requirements or exceed them. If it was a close "race" to hire a couple people for 1 position I would likely choose the veteran.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:16 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:16:17 -0400

I don't believe we are creating this because alot of Soldiers come in new to the military have that attitude. I believe it is a generation that has been brought up by computers instead of parents that had no resposibility or supervision and everything was done for them.

Response by LTC John Shaw made May 6 at 2015 3:23 PM

LTC John Shaw — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:23:17 -0400

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member Veterans are a sub-segment of society. I believe we have a 'government' mentality seep into the active/AGR ranks which then follows to any career they choose. It used to be we could count on military veterans that were mission focused and would work tirelessly to resolve issues 24/7. Now we have a third that are out for the benefits and will do the minimum to get buy. Good luck telling the difference during the interview process.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 3:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 15:51:52 -0400

As someone who is transitioning into "retirement" right now, I've noticed the "We hire Veterans" label is, about 50% of the time, lip service. What it should say is "we hire QUALIFIED Veterans". That said and in answer to the question, yes, but I don't think it is new. Transition programs need to start emphasizing the importance of adjusting your sight picture in reference to civilian employment. A veteran will likely win the job over a civilian when applying for the same job with the same qualifications, but not against someone who is more qualified.

Talking to many recruiters and corporate mentors, part of the problem is service members get out thinking they deserve to walk right into a management position. What some fail to realize is this makes zero sense. In the military, we do not take a guy/gal straight out of basic training and make him/her an NCO no matter what their prior experience was. That individual may fast track through the ranks due to their previous experience, but they still have to learn the basics of the military in order to do so. Why would we expect a private company to hire someone with, often and likely, zero experience in their industry or business, and make them a leader without that person learning the basics? Granted, the more leadership time in the military and jobs you worked may get you in above an entry level, but I don't think it is something to expect. Just like in the military, you have to pay your dues first, then you get what you expect to come to you.

I spoke recently with a recently separated MAJ who is now an assistant project manager for a company fielding a military contract. He stated the company who hired him, known for being very veteran friendly, would not even look at someone E-8 - E-9, or LTC on up. Why? Because to get to that level, they have shifted from hands on supervision to delegation and oversight. That's not a bad thing, as that is normally what is required to obtain those ranks, but when transitioning from military to civilian, they are not able to switch back without major problems. In the corporate world, people in positions requiring delegation have been with that company just as long as that LTC has been in the military.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 6 at 2015 4:18 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 06 May 2015 16:18:47 -0400

Veterans aside, we are creating an entitled society period.

Too many are trying to push the envelope and definition of what being a veteran means. It used to be, not there are any regs on it, that a SM was considered a veteran for serving a tour in combat (or combat zone, now a days) or completed 20 years of honorable service. Just serving a single enlistment or mandatory service obligation w/o a combat patch, IMHO, does not constitute being a veteran, though I'm sure many will tell me otherwise.

Transitioning SM who expect a job solely on their merits as a SM are just living in fantasy land. There is no such thing. SMs SHOULD receive some additional consideration in job placement as a tie breaker, if they meet all the criteria and experience for the job but even that is wishful thinking sometimes.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made May 6 at 2015 4:22 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 06 May 2015 16:22:14 -0400

Some are, but I feel it is a generational gap. What are the ages, and work ethic of that group in general...about the same has been my observation. SO I don't think it is just vets who have served, but that generation of never having had to work hard for anything.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 4:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 16:31:16 -0400

I know Soldiers that are serving today that act the way you described. Hell, I know Soldiers who have a sense of entitlement and they are still serving. This is what society is breeding and it will only get worse.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made May 6 at 2015 4:32 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Wed, 06 May 2015 16:32:14 -0400

What veterans is your brother hiring? I have always found the exact opposite and my company goes out of its way to find and hire veterans for the exact opposite reason of his company.

From working in the civilian World, it does not take long for veterans to fall into the habits of the people they work with and around...so if they are having laziness and loyalty, they may want to consider purchasing a good mirror? Additionally, the turn over rate might not be a reflection of the low quality of the veterans hired but of the company hiring them?

Response by MSG Richard Fendley made May 6 at 2015 6:34 PM

MSG Richard Fendley — Wed, 06 May 2015 18:34:26 -0400

I have seen a little bit of both instances. There are alot of great veterans out there that do a great job and are really professional. I believe it has alot to do with the company that hires them. One company I know of just hires veterans just to check the box so to speak. No expections upfront, no guidance, etc... Other companies that are successful with the veteran hires bring these people on with high expectations and hold them to it. I believe that makes a world of difference. Give a soldier a task, they will make sure it's done!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 7:22 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:22:11 -0400

It's the generation. I'm a Tech School instructor and these kids show up from basic and think we owe them something.. they expect everything handed to them.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2015 7:24 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:24:32 -0400

Is ANYONE watching all this and believing this is not a smear campaign? It is too organized and they are too worried about uniform changes, sex changes an unisex facilities just to impose their will on everyone. So be it. I am sick of the anti-military rhetoric.

Response by CPL Hayward Johnson made May 6 at 2015 7:25 PM

CPL Hayward Johnson — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:25:24 -0400

I personally think its a fallout of professionalism and discipline that starts in boot. My years we was taught to be where we needed to be and always be professional because that characteristic follows us throughout our lives. Saying that i cant speak on behalf of the few who make the many look but ..but even in we had our share of dbags who acted that way. So with all this said in the end its just people being people civilian or veteran laziness is everywhere...it depends on the mindset of the person

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 6 at 2015 7:32 PM

PO1 John Miller — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:32:02 -0400

Firstly Senior I have to ask how old these veterans are. I have noticed the trend you mention also but mostly in younger (one or two term) veterans who tend to be in their 20's. The older veterans such as myself, who did 20 or more years, I've noticed have all of the qualities you mention that are lacking.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made May 6 at 2015 7:41 PM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Wed, 06 May 2015 19:41:41 -0400

I don't think it's an issue limited to veterans. My current job sees me working alongside people who would rather not be there. The simplest tasks I ask to be completed aren't done and it seems that they'd rather be in their cell phones than actually doing their job. Essentially, it comes down to a poor work ethic. The entitlement aspect you mention I've yet to see in the workforce but it's something common in other places. Bars and restaurants come to mind. It's shameful.

Response by SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. made May 7 at 2015 9:12 AM

SPC Jan Allbright, M.Sc., R.S. — Thu, 07 May 2015 09:12:59 -0400

Think there might be a little PTSD involved?

And yes ... IMHO Veterans ARE an entitled class.
If you don't like, go down range for a while.

Response by SFC Douglas Duckett made May 7 at 2015 10:11 AM

SFC Douglas Duckett — Thu, 07 May 2015 10:11:40 -0400

SCPO Chris Klave - What do you mean by "are we creating a generation of entitled Veterans?" Who is creating this entitlement mentality, society or the military?

In my experience, many of the Veterans I see are older and have been in the civilian sector for many years, most have served only one term in the military. Civilian life has impacted them MUCH more than military life as far as job skill sets, moral, and values are concerned

The younger Vets I see are seem to be employable and easy to place into jobs. They do not seem to have a chip on their shoulder and are career orientated. Job retention is more likely if they are hired in a position that matches their career goals and provides upward mobility (younger vets can be aggressive), this reduces turn around.

To put it bluntly, younger veterans are very proud of their service, they feel they should have a leg up on employment, compared to same aged civilians, when the leave the service (as they typically should through their experiences), and they are motivated for upward mobility.

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 7 at 2015 1:35 PM

SFC Joseph James — Thu, 07 May 2015 13:35:51 -0400

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member As a wounded warrior I wish there were businesses like you that would have hired around here. I have met dirt bags of all shapes and kinds, best thing to do is warn them then fire them if they fail to step up. Veteran or not, they owe a decent days work for a decent days pay.

Response by SN Joyce Sunderland made May 7 at 2015 9:33 PM

SN Joyce Sunderland — Thu, 07 May 2015 21:33:18 -0400

I don't "sit on my laurels" and rely solely on my veteran status to land me a job. Most of my prior employers didn't even know I was a veteran because I left that box unchecked on the application. Besides what I did as a sailor (deck ape on a tugboat) often has no direct bearing on whatever position I'm applying for. Knowing which end of a marlinspike is which doesn't tell my potential employer that I know how to do the job they want done. Which, before I FINALLY returned to college 20+ yrs later, was pretty much being a secretary/desk jockey.
Now that I'm wanting to pursue a Bachelor's & eventually Master's degree in Nursing to become a Nurse Practitioner, my time in the Navy has even less in common with my career goals.
And don't EVEN get me started on the long lines that form in local restaurants giving away free meals to vets on Veteran's Day .... that's a whole 'nother topic...

Response by Col Joseph Lenertz made May 8 at 2015 2:04 PM

Col Joseph Lenertz — Fri, 08 May 2015 14:04:00 -0400

Frankly, I think your brother has it wrong. I'm confident in the larger surveys that have been done that prove out veteran's work reliability.
One survey found: “Nearly all (99%) of the surveyed employers agree – veterans perform as well or better than their civilian coworkers. Similarly, employers report that veterans perform as well or better than non-veterans in terms of career advancement,” http://www.monster.com/about/a/Monster-Study-Reveals-Veteran-Friendly-Employer-Brand-Key-to-Attractin5292014-D3126688
Unfortunately, he probably ran in to a few bad apples and it gave him the perception that ALL veterans are like the ones he saw.

Monster Study Reveals Veteran Friendly Employer Brand Key to Attracting Veteran Talent |...

Monster released the sixth edition of the Veterans Talent Index (VTI) today providing insight into what veterans look for from employers what types of retention programs are being used and what concerns employers have when hiring veterans.

Response by SPC David S. made May 8 at 2015 2:05 PM

SPC David S. — Fri, 08 May 2015 14:05:11 -0400

I wouldn't say this is a veteran issue, more so a generation that feels entitled. Encouraged by the narcissistic world of social media you get people more interested in snap chatting selfies, updating their status and hash tagging every thing under the sun. You wont find them learning how to fix a lawn mower, change a tire, or do anything else remotely close to being in the real world as there's an app for that now. #slackergeneration #dumbhelicopterkids #wimps

https://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

Response by Sgt Samantha Holmes made May 9 at 2015 8:51 AM

Sgt Samantha Holmes — Sat, 09 May 2015 08:51:33 -0400

My husband and I are both veterans, USMC, and since rejoining the work force have outdone our peers. Both of us work at different companies where our supervisors are constantly aknowledging our work ethic. I cannot stand some of my peers who just come to work for a paycheck and have no sense of pride in their work. I think this generation is entitled and disrespectful (I think it's because spanking got banned.. Kids need a smack sometimes to get their ego in check)

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made May 9 at 2015 6:17 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Sat, 09 May 2015 18:17:39 -0400

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member Chris, I tend to lean towards MSG Brad Sand thoughts... Though I would have to see the recruiting and HR actions myself to really provide good feed back... That doesn't sound like any circumstance I have seen in hiring. I would even submit that if this is systemic... Then maybe it's the process and criteria that makes this seemike a standard.

As do the "sense of entitlement" not sure I agree 100%; however,I have seen this in a few instances. I would submit that part of this "sense of entitlement" is a result of the media bombardment with what politicians and civilian corporation keep saying. If I keep hearing that "I have a right to a job" this could tend to lead me believe that it's an "entitlement".... Which most of us know is a fallacy. What we want is a chance to compete... Not a hand out.

Well..., my 2cents

Response by PO1 John Miller made May 11 at 2015 7:51 AM

PO1 John Miller — Mon, 11 May 2015 07:51:50 -0400

As others have said, we are creating a society of feeling entitled period. I notice it a lot with the younger crowd. "Why should I have to do what you tell me?" I don't know, maybe it's because I'm in a position over you and you're supposed to do what I tell you? Or, "Cleaning the head is beneath me..." How is it beneath you if you're a Seaman Recruit fresh out of A school? I could go on but I think you get the point!

Response by SCPO David Schlegel made May 20 at 2015 2:16 PM

SCPO David Schlegel — Wed, 20 May 2015 14:16:22 -0400

Wow, I have not seen that kind of performance from veterans in the company I work for. At one point we had 350 people of which about 60 were veterans, and none were classified as Lazy, lacking loyalty and feeling entitled. Not sure if it is where you are or the newer generation veterans. But to answer your question, the entitlement comes from the upbringing in my opinion and not because of anything the military has done.

Response by SrA Amanda Opdyke made Jun 24 at 2015 1:28 AM

SrA Amanda Opdyke — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 01:28:15 -0400

How about living in a veteran transition community and getting bombarded with entitled veterans. I see it every day. They served for 5 minutes and now they expect a handout

Response by CPT Gary Jugenheimer made Jun 24 at 2015 3:05 AM

CPT Gary Jugenheimer — Wed, 24 Jun 2015 03:05:26 -0400

I believe it is good to hire a Vet, but also good to fire one that does not perform....to keep a vet on the payroll that is of questionable value to the organization because they are vets is not rational...purpose was served when they were hired and their lack of support for the organization led to their firing.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Nov 30 at 2015 2:07 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 14:07:24 -0500

It is the society as a whole that feels entitled. Young people today that start the workforce out of High School and especially right out of college have an entitlement expectation that they deserve a house, car, motorcycle, farm, shop or whatever like mom and dad because they have a degree. What they don't realize or where we have failed them is that it took mom and dad 25+ years to work hard, pay dues, and get to that point.

In the military we teach it from the ground up and reward with promotions etc just like any other company in the world...except we aren't a company for profit. That is why it shocks me a little bit to hear this about military personnel. Most of what I hear is the other way around.

I retired from the military after 20++ years with great training that would make me successful in a civilian company and had expectations of a great starting job. Until I humbled myself and realized even though I was highly qualified, I didn't know the businesses and profit mentality of the companies. We start over when we leave the military and most o f the time it is entry level. What I don't like is when someone doesn't hire you because you are retired. I like it when businesses hire veterans but I am not upset when they don't if they hire the most qualified person.

Are we an entitled generation? Absolutely...but we shouldn't be. Just because we wore the uniform and deployed doesn't make us any better or worse than anyone else...just different life experiences. If the vets he hired are lazy, incompetent etc...then fire them...he has full right to not carry that baggage. My guess is these individuals probably got out of the military after their first enlistment for the same reasons he is having problems with them...lazy and incompetent and if you talked to them they probably would blame the military and thought the military wasn't catering to their "needs" in life. I would be willing to bet that a retired veteran would not disappoint him.

Response by SSgt Paul Esquibel made Nov 30 at 2015 3:22 PM

SSgt Paul Esquibel — Mon, 30 Nov 2015 15:22:58 -0500

No, I don't think you can be so general in describing an entire group of people. At the end of the day were all still people, some people show up to work on time some don't being a Veteran doesn't solidify that this won't happen. Employers might think that since serving the military the Veteran would have better skills then your average employee and this is true however it's not true for all. I think to some degree their is an entitlement that all Veterans feel depending on what it applies too and within a individual situation, but nothing as far as I should be guranteed a 90K a year job without enough experience that just bad form.