Are we failing as leaders when our junior folks are forced into having to use food stamps to survive?

2014-02-18T00:22:00-05:00

<p><b>I saw this sort of hardship on junior soldiers early in my career. Now it appears the pendulum is swinging back towards this happening again. The fact that any of our younger soldiers should have to use or even qualify for this is humiliating and a national shame. Quote from attached article: "Pentagon officials told CNN that while the military does not track who is receiving assistance, the military members likely to be on food stamps are those at the bottom of the ranks with children, where base pay <font face="Times New Roman">— not including housing or food — for a new soldier with a spouse and child is about $20,000. With housing and food allowances, an Army private with two years experience would make about $40,000." </font></b><a href="http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/17/food-stamp-use-among-troops-skyrockets-during-obama-admin/"><b><font color="#000080" face="Times New Roman"><u>http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/17/food-stamp-use-among-troops-skyrockets-during-obama-admin/</u></font></b></a></p><div class="pta-link-card"><div class="pta-link-card-picture"><img src="http://cdn01.dailycaller.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Commissary-e [login to see] 10.jpg"></div><div class="pta-link-card-content"><div class="pta-link-card-title"><a href="http://dailycaller.com/2014/02/17/food-stamp-use-among-troops-skyrockets-during-obama-admin/" target="_blank">Food stamp use among troops skyrockets during Obama admin</a></div><div class="pta-link-card-description">Food stamp redemption at military grocery stores, or commissaries, has nearly doubled since the beginning of the </div></div><div style="clear: both;"></div><div class="pta-box-hide"><i class="icon-remove"></i></div></div>

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 1:47 AM

2014-02-18T01:47:29-05:00

LTC Metz,

The federal poverty line for a family of 3 is $19,790. Given your payroll example, our enlisted starting salary of $20,000 for a family of three, is effectively condemning entry level soldiers to poverty living conditions. These statistics do not even begin to touch much higher cost of living within pretty much any major city on the east or west coast, much less cost of living abroad.

No wonder entry level soldiers and their families depend on food stamps and other relief aid.

Warmest Regards, Sandy

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made Feb 18 at 2014 2:01 AM

2014-02-18T02:01:04-05:00

I think it is a lot of junior enlisted taking advantage of a system that does not include a housing allowance/base housing in its income figures. These junior service members know that they do not count the housing and so they apply. Who can blame them they can now get a few hundred "extra" dollars. The whole welfare system is broken and needs to be fixed. A household making $40,000 (when you include housing) should not be milking the government for food stamps.

Response by SPC David Dunn made Feb 18 at 2014 3:25 AM

2014-02-18T03:25:09-05:00

I am a Specialist with 4 years Active Duty. I was married with a 2 year old when I enlisted. I do not currently, nor have I ever, had the need to apply for food stamps. Our pay, despite public opinion, is very adequate if you make responsible choices with your money. 40,000 is a pretty average salary compared to the civilian market. Not rich, not poor. Enough to buy everything you need, and a good amount of things you want. After deployment, I had 3 years time in. My wife and I easily qualified for and bought a house. My wife is a stay at home mom and our Army salary is our only income. We make good financial decisions (don't buy cars/things we can't afford, don't increase the size of our family unless there is income to support that decision...etc..). At 4 years, I now make 48,000 plus free healthcare (a civilian salary with a GREAT healthcare plan would be comparable at around 54,000-56,000 before healthcare deductibles). <div><br></div><div>I think Soldiers need to understand that no matter their pay grade or salary there will be things you want and things you need. The Army compensates you well enough for things you need. The gap between your income and assistive programs like food stamps is managing the things you want.</div><div>On a side note I have seen many soldiers that were on food stamps that smoke, drink regularly, drive big financed trucks, wives that get their hair done 2 times a month...All of those extra expenses plus implied expenses (low fuel economy = more money in gas, higher car payment) add up to major expenses. </div><div>We have always QUALIFIED for food stamps, but the benefit is there for people who NEED it. If we were to use it when we don't need to, that resource might not be available for someone who truly needs it. </div><div><br></div><div>Everyone wants a bigger check, but the Army does pay pretty decently.</div>

Response by CSM Christopher Irwin made Feb 18 at 2014 5:55 AM

2014-02-18T05:55:31-05:00

Sir,<br><br>While unpopular to say, the "Soldier's receiving food stamps" complaints are skewed at best. As a young Soldier I qualified for food stamps with a wife and a child. I did not use them because I took the personal responsibility to live within my means. When you consider that the average Soldier joining the Army is at best, a high school graduate and you factor in the benefits associated with our military pay system (Tricare, commissary, tax exemptions, NON-taxable BAH & BAS, etc.), we are well compensated compared to our civilian counterparts. Ask the average person working a minimum wage job with a high school diploma or GED what they're making and they will tell you they are making the same amount MINUS benefits...AND all their income is taxable. How many people working at Walmart or McDonald's (entry level) are getting full benefits packages? Having almost half their pay being tax deferred or not at all? Never mind, the fact that we get those benefits right off the bat without having to work for 6+ months before we're eligible...<br><br>I say this only because there is a vast tendency to live well beyond our means. Ask the average Private if they have cable? a car? a cell phone? Eating fast food? They will say yes. If not, they are lying or they have no idea what their spouse is spending. <br><br>Are there more Soldiers getting food stamps? Yes....BAH and BAS are NON-taxable earnings which skews the data regarding income in the eyes of Uncle Sugar (the government). So of course they qualify! <br><br>I will ALWAYS advocate that us Soldiers receive higher pay for the job we do. However, this argument has always been a moot point and if we peel back the onion a little, the pay is commensurate with the job. Sorry to appear so blunt but we have to be truthful with ourselves as leaders. In NO country in the world is their military paid as well or compensated like ours. <br>

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 2:08 PM

2014-02-18T14:08:16-05:00

Colonel Metz, I was one of those and I am trying to do what I can do to help veterans, especially when that choice for single vets is their pets or themselves. I am helping on the pet side of things at local race tracks, etc.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 18 at 2014 3:49 PM

2014-02-18T15:49:10-05:00

I fail to see how this is a leadership failure. None of us set the pay scales or decided that take home pay should be so low for enlisted folk.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 8:02 PM

2014-02-18T20:02:59-05:00

As I am not in a "real" unit, I do not really know the financial situation of many Soldiers. Of those that I am aware of, only a few are on assistance. I do know a fellow NCO that applied, but was turned down because he made slightly too much. As SPC Dunn stated, I feel it is highly possible. I am single, thus do not fully have the same perspective. I did, however help to support siblings with children and was still able to stay afloat. I know it sounds like babysitting even more, but I do feel it is important to stress financial management to these younger Soldiers.

I do however support those that do need assistance, because at least they are working, unlike many of those in the civilian sector. I do wonder, however how many Playstations, X boxes, Jordans and other non-essentials those on assistance have.

This day in age and even in the military, it is still an issue of keeping up with the Joneses. I'm sure with financial management assistance from ACS, these Soldiers will be able to be like SPC Dunn.

(Sorry to keep using you SPC Dunn, but you are a good example of what is possible with a little bit of responsibillity. Also, do you mind sharing your age upon enlistment, you sound rather mature)

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 8:10 PM

2014-02-18T20:10:57-05:00

Just curious, Basic Training is already starting to go soft. How much focus is put on basic life skills? I know there is so much training already crammed into such a short time, but do they do anything to help Soldiers how to live more responsibly? I'm pretty certain a little budgeting and financial advice can go a long way. I can't remember how long it took me to hear about the TSP. I regularly give Soldiers unsolicited advice about it. Even after getting it, it took me even longer to realize that there were ways to modify and diversify it. As much as I hate how soft things are getting, I would really like to see Soldiers actually set up for success and be able to stand on their own 2 feet. They are being coddled too much at home and then come into the military, probably equivalent to what some of us were in our preteen years, as far as maturity. If they are given a chance to be responsible in their own lives, I'm sure it will carry over into better discipline in the military.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 8:16 PM

2014-02-18T20:16:45-05:00

I think where we fail as leaders in the military and as a nation is in teaching our kids about responsibility both personal and financial. The old saying "If the Army wanted you to have a wife and kids, they would have issued them to you" comes to mind. Junior enlisted are typically in the 18 - 21 year old range and shouldn't be having children yet, as they cannot afford them, whether they are military or civilian. Not many 18 - 21 year olds have jobs that pay in the $30K and above range, which depending on your location is about the annual salary needed to not qualify for food stamps.

I think a lot of people both civilian and military are using the programs not because they NEED it but because they WANT it and qualify for it. If I get assistance for my groceries then I can buy that car that I want but can't afford unless I get assistance. To many people do not understand the difference between WANTS and NEEDS. I actually had a young Airman First Class (E3) tell me that he had a RIGHT to cable TV and he couldn't afford it without getting food stamps to buy his groceries and feed his family. That was his justification for why we should be putting him in for early promotion to E-4. Needless to say him and I had several 'mentoring' sessions regarding financial management and responsibility.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 8:37 PM

2014-02-18T20:37:28-05:00

I would like to think that a lot of people use them simply because they can take advantage of the system. The rest simply NEED the assistance. I had to use WIC when I was a PVT. Taking home 300.00 every payday and my rent was 300.00 a month (96-97) with a car payment of 332.48 yeah, you do the math. So yes some people may need some assistance. But I also think that a lot of people just abuse it because they can and/or are use to doing it.

Response by 1SG Eric Rice made Feb 18 at 2014 10:35 PM

2014-02-18T22:35:41-05:00

It is not a "Leadership Failure" in the Army. It is however an issue with today's entitlement society who often choose to live beyond their means and refuse to accept personal responsibility. This is where the issue begins. In order to help mitigate the issue the best thing any "Leader" can do is provide sound advice and counsel to these young soldiers. Much like many other responses have eluded to, good mentorship can go a long way.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2014 11:17 PM

2014-02-18T23:17:12-05:00

Unless your the person in DFAS that makes the pay scales, your not failing your Soldiers.

Response by CSM Michael Poll made Feb 18 at 2014 11:25 PM

2014-02-18T23:25:53-05:00

A better question is if you have a Soldier with children and can not make thier bills, are you failing them by not looking into whether or not they qualify for food stamps so they can survive?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 1:08 AM

2014-02-19T01:08:05-05:00

Extending the Government Food-stamp Program to include Military Families is NOT about providing food; it is about ensuring increased government dependentcy amoung voters for re-election purposes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 19 at 2014 2:08 PM

2014-02-19T14:08:19-05:00

Sir, as leaders I don't think we are failing are soldiers for having them use foodstamps to survive. In fact I see it quite the opposite. If you have a soldier that is struggling to feed their families than us as Leaders should be involved enough to know they are in financial need. Those are traits of a great leader which is to know their soldiers and help them thru their problems or recommend an outside organization that can help. When I was a PVT my NCOIC took me to the WIC office, and told me to fill out a foodstamp application all totalling about $350 a month.

Now a leader is failing if they don't recommend the Family Subsistance Supplemental Allowance program (FSSA). The program has been around for around 15 to 16 years, it supplements soldiers income to give them enough money to not qualify for food stamps. I will post the link for all leaders to take a look at and recommend that all young soldiers fill the application out.

https://www.dmdc.osd.mil/identitymanagement/authenticate.do?execution=e1s1

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 20 at 2014 5:15 AM

2014-02-20T05:15:01-05:00

I believe the problem is twofold:

1.
As leaders, we should know when our Soldiers are having
or placing themselves in potential issues with their budgetary habits. It can
be as simple as discussing the current events in their lives with Births,
Deaths, and return from deployment serving as prime opportunities to breech the
subject and steer them to ACS, AER, and agency to assist, or even to help them
develop a budget on our own.

2.
This could indicate a broader issue that we are facing
as a whole across this country, that despite recovery in the Stock Market etc…
many Spouses that held a well paying job have lost that position and either
have taken a lower paying salary, or have no job at all thus pushing them
toward food stamps.

This appears to be another reason that talk of our pay and allowances must
be tempered with the realities we face, that are not experienced by those
suggesting changes.

Response by CPT Lance Cutsforth made Feb 20 at 2014 5:50 AM

2014-02-20T05:50:10-05:00

What if we take a step back from this discussion a minute and look at the bigger picture? We are opining regarding how soldiers should be living on the wage they earn and how that wage compares to their civilian counterparts. If we take the figure of $48,000 per year as compensation, that equates to approximately $1000 per week. The average soldier works 50 hours per week, so that is $20 per hour. I would respectfully point out that even a private has more skill, more training, and more responsibility than a retail or fast-food employee, so that is not an accurate comparison. More importantly, every soldier has written an uncashed check payable up to and including their life. Can we agree that might be worth more than $20 an hour? The problem is not whether soldiers are living within their means. The problem is that they are not being compensated for the risk, the trauma, and the jeopardy they face every day. Yes, most of us joined to serve, but the notion that one has to suffer to serve is pure nonsense. If we want a motivated fighting force, why don't we pay them better so we attract and retain a higher quality soldier and allow him to focus on his mission instead of how his wife is going to juggle groceries, diapers and buying new tires for the car this month back home while he is deployed 2000 miles away?

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 12:21 AM

2014-02-21T00:21:02-05:00

If you cannot make $40K work, you're spending too much of your money on ish that's not necessary.

Edit - and that doesn't mean continue to pop out more babies when you're an E-nothing. Wanting and having a family is one thing. Having a sports team is completely another.

Response by SPC Dan Goforth made Feb 21 at 2014 12:49 AM

2014-02-21T00:49:07-05:00

There are areas where soldiers absolutely do not need any assistance to provide for their families. But, there are higher cost of living areas where that assistance is needed. Most higher cost of living areas do have COLA, but some do not, because the entire county doesn't have a higher cost of living, just the city where the duty station is located. And, PX/Commissary prices are tied to the local prices, by law. There are two possible fixes for the problem.

And no, it's not a leadership problem within the operational military.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2014 1:23 AM

2014-02-21T01:23:18-05:00

A lot of opinions on this one, some surprising, some expected...LTC Metz, to directly answer your question, No. We as leaders are not failing when our junior folks are forced into using food stamps. That is because no one is forced into using them. It's a choice people make based on their individual situation. Some are from poor choices, some because of unfortunate circumstance, some from misguided information and others out of pure greed. There is no blanket answer to this discussion, as you peel back the layers it becomes a clouded issue. The closest blanket answer is the Congress is failing to provide adequate pay & allowances so that Soldiers do NOT qualify for these types of programs. I'm not advocating that the gov't go out and tweak the formula for determining what is considered pay, I'm saying increase the actual amount of money in our Soldier's paycheck (base pay) so they no longer qualify for food stamps. Stop looking for reasons to disqualify them (oh they receive BAH, BAS, free medical, etc...) Stop comparing what we earn to our "civilian counterparts" because those counterparts DO NOT EXIST!! No other job in the world has you on call 24/7/365 with the added possibility of DEATH! We can NEVER compensate our Soldiers enough and I'm disgusted by those that believe we are.

I apologize if my rant has offended anyone, but this is and always will be a touchy subject for me (both personally and professionally).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 4 at 2014 10:28 AM

2014-03-04T10:28:19-05:00

No.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 15 at 2014 9:25 PM

2014-03-15T21:25:56-04:00

$40,000 is more than I make in a year with both my Army Reserve and Civilian salary combined. Somehow, I still managed to get married, keep a car, buy my wife a car, and have some savings for a house in the near future, all while paying for our bachelor degrees, and sending my wife to get her masters degree. I also live in an area that is not cheap.

My Point:
I think the focus needs to be more on the Soldier's drive, and his ability to manage his money and time. The Army has some amazing programs and counselors that can help them do this...all it takes is a leader that is willing to show them.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 11:41 AM

2014-03-19T11:41:47-04:00

Sir,

I feel that in a lot of these cases, the individuals who recieve this additional funding from the government do so because they cannot properly manage their money and instead of addressing the issue they abuse the system. Based on personal experience, I feel that the military pay could be a bit higher considering the things that we are ordered to do within our ranks, but at the same time I feel that the pay is not so low that a person would need government assistance. If we, as leaders, would take a closer look into our soldiers finances, we could identify the problem sooner, preventing them from having to need further assistance.

Response by SPC Michael Hunt made Mar 19 at 2014 11:55 AM

2014-03-19T11:55:53-04:00

Yes Sir!

Response by CPL Stephen Kirt made Mar 23 at 2014 5:01 PM

2014-03-23T17:01:35-04:00

I would also like to point out that some soldiers join the military for the steady paycheck that they can't find elsewhere. Not that they're expecting a lot of money, but it's decent money that they can live on and not have to worry about getting laid off with the way the economy is. To add onto that, some soldiers made mistakes before joining. I know soldiers who have 500 or lower credit scores so in order to get that car or that phone they had to have huge down payments or have high interest rates. There's always more sides to the story than what may seem evident from the start. I'm one of those that made bad decisions as an 18 year old, and didn't join until I was 21. I make the best of what I have and worked hard to get where I'm at currently. I don't have a great credit score, no, but I am working on it. I have a car with a payment that is a little high, but I also know I can afford it because I budget my money. I have a smart phone that may seem like a "luxury" but again, I can afford it because I budget my money. It also helps that I'm in Kuwait and get paid a little extra so that I can save a little more money so I won't have to worry about anything. It's all in how you take the situation that you are given.

Response by LTC Jason Bartlett made Mar 23 at 2014 8:58 PM

2014-03-23T20:58:56-04:00

want vs need, you may want it but do you need it? If you have a $400 car payment maybe you should rethink your priorities. I made around $500 after taxes back in the day and somehow figured out how to make it work without assistance.

http://www.dfas.mil/militarymembers/payentitlements/militarypaytables.html

Pay Tables

Index of Military Pay Tables from 1949 to the present.

Response by CPT Catherine R. made Mar 24 at 2014 1:12 PM

2014-03-24T13:12:28-04:00

Sir,

Yes we are failing them but not monetarily. The Junior Soldier, driving a nice car with an iPhone and Cable TV is being failed because they aren't being taught to budget correctly. Junior Soldiers are entry level employees. They are still starting out and shouldn't expect to be in the same position as the Senior NCO's. Unfortunately, if you look in the parking lots you will see the SPC's in the nice cars and the Senior NCO's/Officers driving the beaters. It's all about choices. $40,000 a year is plenty to live on if you budget correctly and live within your means.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 3:41 AM

2014-03-28T03:41:05-04:00

I made this comment previously in response to someone else's statement, but I feel it must be said to anyone/everyone listening because many shared his viewpoint...while I may agree with some of the comments in regards to how a "select" group of Soldiers are not budgeting their finances correctly, I have to disagree that "the Army does pay pretty decently". Everyone needs to stop comparing base pay and entitlements we receive with ANY other job in the world because there is NO comparison. There is no other job in the world that requires you to be on call 24/7/365 with the possibility of DEATH. I serve my country proudly and I volunteered to do so and I did not do it for the money. But do not trivialize our sacrifices by stating that our lives are worth the meager amount of money and benefits given. No amount of money or benefits can help ease the suffering of the thousands of children who will grow up without a father of mother because they died defending our country. The spouse who has lost their partner in life, their best friend and who must now pick up the pieces of their shattered life. Please, go tell them that their loved one was compensated "pretty decent" for the work they did. I'm not trying to club you over the head, but this mindset must change for everyone. Congress can keep serving me cr@p and tell me it's chocolate pudding, but I know better. And our military personnel deserve better. We can never be compensated enough for what we do, the facilities can never be good enough for what we do. Our country asked us to lay down our lives for their protection and that is what we have volunteered to do. The least it can do in return is treat us as good as it treats itself. And you only have to look at how well Congress and the entire federal bureaucracy is compensated to understand how well I believe that we should be compensated.

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 28 at 2014 5:14 PM

2014-03-28T17:14:47-04:00

If lower enlisteds are forced into having to use food stamps to survive, I'd ask a couple questions.

1. Are they using the Commissary?

2. Are they otherwise living beyond their means?

3. What are they buying at the grocery store of Commissary?

I'm just guessing, but if lower enlisteds are using food stamps, I'd say they made some bad choices elsewhere (eg unmanageable credit card bills or car payments, something like that), that forced them into that situation. The issue then becomes one of not being forced into using food stamps, but painting yourself into that corner in the first place.

Response by SPC Charles Brown made Mar 30 at 2014 5:29 PM

2014-03-30T17:29:38-04:00

I don't see it as a failure of military leadership, rather as a failure of our government to properly provide for all the needs of our service men and women.

Response by PO2 Tony Casler made Aug 30 at 2014 10:48 PM

2014-08-30T22:48:18-04:00

I have to question the wisdom of anyone who marries during their first enlistment. Adjusting to adulthood, military life and married life all in a short span of time and on a thin budget are a recipe for disaster, and the divorce rate I saw among junior sailors reflected that. It doesn't help that military culture pushes marriage as a way out of barracks life (never understood that one, my time in the barracks was a blast), a way to get "extra" pay (ignoring all the extra expenses to follow) and for men as proof of one's manhood. In my more cynical moments I have wondered if it is a sneaky retention tool, making junior servicemembers feel obligated to marry, live life on the ragged financial edge and amass a debt that can be conveniently paid off with a reenlistment bonus, only to repeat the cycle over the next four years.

Response by MSgt Stephan Hall made Jan 23 at 2015 7:52 AM

2015-01-23T07:52:46-05:00

The cost of living has increased over the last six years significantly. While its commendable to be concerned for our junior military, realizing the bigger picture is optimum to spreading the right message. As a family of many, my wife and I closely monitor how we live, when you can actually pinpoint doing the same things day in and day out and your grocery bill continues to climb at remarkable rate, you wonder when it will stop, as a Leader of Marines, you can't help but wonder how the a Junior enlisted survive in an economy that is out pacing their pay. Maybe a military structured discount at the commissaries is something we should as Leaders lobby for to help defray the high cost of living.