Are we going too far on stolen valor?

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:35:20 -0400

This is the second article I have seen where real Soldiers were harassed as being stolen valor. Yes this Soldier is ate up, but at what point do you start making yourself and the service you represent look worse?

Another article had a female retiring and they harassed her on her Facebook page until she posted her DD214.

How far is too far? Are we just making it worse?

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Aug 20 at 2015 11:37 AM

SCPO David Lockwood — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:37:33 -0400

We need to be careful when confronting, make sure the individual is not a service member.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Aug 20 at 2015 11:51 AM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:51:05 -0400

I think most need to back the &*#@ off if they are not sure as they are messing with real service personnel. There was an older gentleman, a 75 year old Vietnam Vet who serve in the Marines from 1958 to 1964, who was harassed by another service member(?) AND a policeman for the same, and was asked to leave the area!!! He was totally legit and a Vietnam Veteran for goodness sake!!! This was blamed on a police officer, but it was started by someone believed to be active duty or military affiliated.
http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2015/06/harrisburg_artsfest_veteran_st.html

Harrisburg police officer wrongly accuses veteran, 75, of 'stolen valor'

Robert D. Ford, of Marysville, served in the Marines beginning in 1958. He has remained active in veterans issues since his honorable discharge in 1964. He was shocked when a Harrisburg police officer called him a "fake" at ArtsFest on Memorial Day. PennLive confirmed his military service.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 11:52 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 11:52:57 -0400

There are definitely some instances of going too far. When in doubt I always assume someone is just really bad at putting on the uniform, not impersonating. I still try to correct it, but we need to be careful.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Aug 20 at 2015 12:03 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:03:24 -0400

This will stop as soon as the "make em famous" phase goes away. You have sites on FB who go the extra mile to "out" people, but in the end in some cases, are "outing" the wrong people. I remember one in particular that called out an old retired Marine who was wearing his dress blues on planes. He was videotaped and clowned on until the family stepped in and it was shown this retired Marine SNCO was in fact a TRUE Marine, and he had dementia. Every award on his uniform was his, just in the wrong order. Did anyone apologize? No. We're taking "outing" to levels that are unessicary and in some cases extremely unprofessional or contradictory. Leaders should be the ones correcting these troops, but it's easier to look the other way and laugh than to be the LEADER and tell these troops that you're actually crossing the line and making the service look worse than the stolen valor offender.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Aug 20 at 2015 12:54 PM

SGT Ben Keen — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 12:54:42 -0400

In many cases we are making it worse. We are seeing people act very unprofessionally to point out that someone else is acting the fool. But how much of a fool do you look like if you are standing in the middle of the mall yelling at some idiot who just came from the Army/Navy store wearing the newest ribbon to be issued?

This is why I continue to say, if you are going to confront someone you suspect of such a thing like Stolen Valor, the burden is on you to do a few things. First, have your facts right. Don't go in with guns firing without knowing all the facts. Secondly, do it in a manner that reflects the high level of professionalism that the military is known for. Walk up to the person and talk with them. Maintain a level head. Yes, it boils my blood to see these idiots out there but I don't want to make myself, the Army, my fellow Veterans, and the units I have been assigned to look like idiots too.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Aug 20 at 2015 1:01 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 13:01:34 -0400

Military bearing is a two-way street. Acting the fool because someone else did so first does not fit the soldiers' profile to me.

Response by COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM made Aug 20 at 2015 2:09 PM

COL Jason Smallfield, PMP, CFM, CM — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 14:09:20 -0400

A few thoughts:
- There is a difference between professional questioning and unprofessional confrontation. Seems ironic for a current/former military member to unprofessionally attack a suspected (but not proven) faker.
- There is a difference between engagement and harassment. Talking to a person when something does not look right is an engagement. Following that person in person with a video camera or on social media quickly turns into harassment.
- There is a difference between knowing facts and making assumptions. For example, many people wrongly assume that a female is not a veteran.
- We as a society used to analyze then decide but now we seem to decide then justify regardless of the facts or the missing analysis.
- Where is the line drawn and are we going too far on stolen valor? To me the answer goes to knowing the above differences and professionally applying them to a given situation.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 20 at 2015 4:38 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 20 Aug 2015 16:38:36 -0400

I think the current issue lies with individuals wanting/needing the social media attention for themselves for "outing" a faker. The more energy poured into a video recording the more "likes" they receive for themselves and the higher the personal gratification, as if they have somehow done us all a favor.
I'm all for calling a fake when you see one, but we should do so with the same professionalism and tact that we would display if we were policing up one of our own. A professional and a leader wouldn't correct a newly enlisted solider in a PX by screaming and making a scene, what kind of example would that set? Fakers want to be part a profession that they will never know, so why not exude that professionalism if you really want to cut them down to size. After all, nobody yells at the booger eating 5 year old for dressing like his favorite super hero right?
I have on numerous occasion thanked certain businesses for asking to see ID before giving a military discount. I think an increased difficulty to get away with freebees helps to curb the desire for stolen valor.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Aug 21 at 2015 8:39 AM

SSgt Terry P. — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 08:39:28 -0400

I have witnessed "Stolen Valor" for over 40 years ---some of it concerning embellishment of service,some involving the wearing of a certain uniform or patches and other distinctive service awards.In my personal opinion it just makes the person doing it as an idiot and should just be ignored by any of us,but if the person is using it for personal gain,that person should be reported to authorities and investigated by them and dealt with,but not confronted by us. We are professionals.

Response by SPC Sheila Lewis made Aug 21 at 2015 12:18 PM

SPC Sheila Lewis — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:18:45 -0400

I believe it is case by case and Veterans have to remain alert, this is our fight.

Response by SSG Warren Swan made Aug 21 at 2015 12:19 PM

SSG Warren Swan — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:19:04 -0400

The whole Stolen Valor is going too far. If you're going to make an on the spot correction, DO IT. No need to videotape it for cool points. This "Soldier" is ate up, but the SFC is just as bad in this instance for loosing his bearing. And asking for a CAC card? Most Soldiers I know would ask for proper identification, not a CAC (yes I know they're the same). You're a SNCO, and should know how to properly correct people, and conduct yourself in a professional manner at all times.

Response by Sgt David G Duchesneau made Aug 21 at 2015 12:20 PM

Sgt David G Duchesneau — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:20:52 -0400

I couldn't get the video to play.

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Grice made Aug 21 at 2015 12:20 PM

1SG Jeffrey Grice — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:20:53 -0400

Couldn't hear the whole thing, but stated SPC rank was on upside down, not a good start, and who doesn't travel with CAC? Did the SFC show his? I'm all for calling out stolen valor, but still need to represent us as a professional organization if doing so.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 12:31 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:31:07 -0400

I would commend the SFC for trying to accomplish his duty. The "ate up" soldier needs to be "ate up" by his First Shirt. However, we do go to far.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 12:32 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:32:15 -0400

I think that SFC was in the right. SPC was all ate up and out of uniform (no CAC) - and having an attitude. If SPC really is still a soldier, he needs to be handled. Everything he said was wrong... showing all kinds of paperwork and dog tags, things that anyone can have. Again, if SPC is still on the books I hope his Chain of Command was shown this video and dealt with accordingly.

Response by SGM Steve Wettstein made Aug 21 at 2015 12:41 PM

SGM Steve Wettstein — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 12:41:59 -0400

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 1:00 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:00:21 -0400

SPC Robert Patrick, I personally haven't had to confront a possible stolen value case, but I would like to think that I could approach the situation in a calm manner an remain that way. As in this case with an ate up Soldier, I would still approach the situation the same way and see what the deal is and getting any unit information that I could, that way I could let his unit command team know that he has issues. No need to go bat crap crazy on someone.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Aug 21 at 2015 1:03 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 13:03:39 -0400

Regardless, there is no excuse for arguing in public, what does the Creed of the NCO say "No one is more professional than I?"

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 2:16 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 14:16:10 -0400

I just watched this a bit ago. With all the headlines of stolen valor and deceit going on by both Soldiers and civilians, I'd say if it appears out of place, it might just be. All the deficiencies were red flags, so the NCO is right to call him out. Wether he was in service or not, that doesn't matter. Under no authority does that SPC have the right to be dicked up in uniform (or out) as a member of the service, nor does he have the right to respond or conduct himself as he did. Any Soldier just out of BCT ha been indoctrinated on how to act and about rank hierarchy, so a SPC who has been in since 2011 has no excuse. They are just an ate up undisciplined Soldier. Even more, further brings discredit on an already unfairly scrutinized Army Reserve as well.

I say, drive on SFC, drive on. You are a pillar that upholds the standards and don't hesitate to make a spot correction. You are the one that holds the line in this ever-softening force...

Response by SCPO Lee Pradia made Aug 21 at 2015 4:37 PM

SCPO Lee Pradia — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 16:37:39 -0400

If it's so important we should stop selling and or donating any and all uniform items on the civilian market. Also, discretion is the better part of valor, use some professionalism when confronting complete strangers, the secret to a long life is, try not to shorten it. Yelling and screaming at someone in public is uncalled for and is not how we should represent the uniform services.

Response by SGT Christopher Churilla made Aug 21 at 2015 9:39 PM

SGT Christopher Churilla — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 21:39:44 -0400

Assuming for a second this is a real Soldier, what really scares me is his leadership letting him walk around like that.

Response by SN Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 21 at 2015 11:13 PM

SN Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Aug 2015 23:13:44 -0400

I don't believe we are, I just think that those who wish to claim or harass someone and claim they have violated "stolen valor" should do their research before they start anything.
Those that impersonate the millitary disgust me, they have not earned the honor to wear the unifrom or claim the achievements both of which they have no buisness dealing with.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2015 12:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:30:29 -0400

People need to calm down. There is a difference between com fronting someone and bulling someone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HyRYaIyvzsY

Stolen Valor Mistake

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Aug 22 at 2015 12:40 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 12:40:20 -0400

I totally agree!!!

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 22 at 2015 1:05 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:05:25 -0400

Absolutely. The folks who call them out start looking worse than the posers when they get belligerent like this guy. He has the poser dead to right, but still some tactfulness is needed.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Aug 22 at 2015 1:14 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 13:14:11 -0400

SGT Private RallyPoint Member What will eventually happen is, one of these days, they're gonna confront the wrong (real) vet, PTSD or other mental issue kicks in, and someone is gonna get hurt, or worse. This is not "if", but "when", and no one will be there to step in... I don't think a lot of our AD/Ret personnel, for whatever the reason, are even thinking on this level when they approach someone and it's gonna cost them. If you don't have the people skills to approach someone in a respectable manner, or can take into consideration that this individual may be having a mental issue, then they really need to BTFU and get someone who can!!! Just my 2 cents worth, as I often wonder how I would respond if I'm cornered like I've seen some of the guys end up being...

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Aug 22 at 2015 2:51 PM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 14:51:13 -0400

The LCPL was overcome with emotion to the point of his hands trembling so much it came through in the video. The buddy that was with him (Army guy talking Army regulations) did not have his six as he should have helped the LCPL break contact.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2015 5:59 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 17:59:56 -0400

I agree people need to settle down. Many of these stolen valor "watchdogs" would probably stop this guy and berate him for clearly being a fake soldier because his uniform is not in compliance with AR-670-1. Bonus points to anyone who knows who he is.

Response by SSG Keven Lahde made Aug 22 at 2015 9:08 PM

SSG Keven Lahde — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 21:08:47 -0400

LTC Private RallyPoint Member Sir seems like people are going out of their way too look for issues with people wearing the uniform. I have no issues that they are doing it, but to seek out and try and make it like others haven't served or wearing something wrong I think might be a little bit overboard. Just my thought and opinion.

Response by 1LT Ryan Millican made Aug 22 at 2015 9:58 PM

1LT Ryan Millican — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 21:58:39 -0400

It definitely has gone too far. Like most, I'm all for some of these people getting called out, especially when you have a SSG wearing more medals than General Patton, but if there's a kid just wearing a uniform, and not trying to get anything from it, and even if he doesn't have his CAC on him, just leave it alone, at the most get his name, ask him who his chain of command is, then address the issue that way. But I agree with CW2 McCollum, most people are just looking for social media attention, and it's almost become a game to see who can get the next faker outed.

Response by SSgt Kip Spadafore made Aug 22 at 2015 10:04 PM

SSgt Kip Spadafore — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 22:04:33 -0400

As much as this does bother me, discretion and tact need to win in this case. LCPL had him dead to rights, you proceed your point, remain clear, composed and focused, make the obvious request for removal of the uni and move on. My PTSD had taught me to breathe thru these things, and I've probably confronted 2 or 3 of these posers in the last few years. It is truly amazing how many of them are out there, like it's cool to be military. It's a right, a privilege, earned by many, including yours truly, in blood. Know that your view is appreciated and noted, but don't stoop to this "groupies " level. Ooh rah!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2015 10:31 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Aug 2015 22:31:45 -0400

I have over looked several other replies to this post and I am apparently the odd one out. I do not disagree with these videos. VERY FEW are in fact in service or served and if someone is currently serving and wearing a different uniform or claiming to be an "elite" operator that is just as bad if not worst then a civilian claiming that title. I fully support all of the morons being called out and publicly humiliated, I do not see it as a form of flattery.

Not to mention there is an overwhelming number of people who are doing this to benefit themselves financially, this isn't "I like the military so much I am trying show support". No this is far beyond that and the only way these P.O.S will stop doing it is when they are caught and publicly humiliated.

To those that quote the NCO creed, I cant say anything regarding that because you are correct. Those who say we should be more professional you are correct. With that said I would disregard both and aggressively pursue these posers. Everyone breaks and bends the rules at some point and time and this is a topic I will shame the military according to some of you.

Response by PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips made Aug 24 at 2015 6:17 PM

PO1 Sojourner "Chancy" Phillips — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 18:17:14 -0400

There have been cases that went to far. Service can and should be verified prior to calling someone out publicly. That being said, I think that these fakes should be exposed. The do pose some serious issues and threats. If they are truly devious they take advantage of good people wanting to help, that is stealing, they also seem to always want to worm their way in the "Special" military areas. Here is the threat I see. There are a lot of people in those area such a Ranger, SEAL, Green Beret, EOD, that have a lot of critical of very sensitive/classified knowledge about the operations and security protocols. The biggest threat is the insider. If they are willing to fake valor/service, prey on the hearts of people and take money doing so then they are willing to sell your country out to the highest bidder. These people should be called out appropriately and they should be put on the Terrorist watch list.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 27 at 2015 4:53 PM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Aug 2015 16:53:40 -0400

I've read so much on this in the last few weeks, and to be honest, as a vet, this concerns me. I know it may sound strange to some, but there are parts of the country where seeing a mid-50's guy with a beer gut, long hair and a "Desert Storm Veteran" ballcap with a million pieces of 'flair' on it is pretty common. Hell, I've been out long enough that I look more like a lost member of The Satler Brothers than a former naval officer. Some years back, my father (former 82nd NCO and LRRP), currently an artist, age 71, was commissioned to provide a bronze memorial to all the veterans of our home county. The unveiling included uniformed gentlemen from WWII to the present. Some of those guys were certainly not ready to pass any inspection (Dad's uniform looked perfect...save the hair)...But I'd have dared any of my OEF/OIF peers full of %iss and vinegar to have taken issue with these men who stormed Omaha Beach and survived Khe Sahn...let alone the mild mannered cake-baker and "hippie" in the corner who ended up being a Navy SEAL. I say we be the professionals we want to be respected as and let the "you know what" float where it tends to.