Are we really equal?

2015-06-03T13:28:37-04:00

So I know theres been a lot of attention on equality for women in the media recently regarding equal pay and/or equal job opportunities and just equality all around. So I would like to get everyone`s opinion on the matter of bringing equality to PRT`s or Physical Readiness Test. As you know male and female have separate standards, last PRT I scored good overall (trying to improve), 22 push-ups, 59 sit-ups, and burned 117 calories on the bike in 12 minutes. If I were to score that based on male standards, I would fail my push-ups because I would need to get 37 push-ups just to pass, and that`s a satisfactory.

So my personal opinion is that I wouldn`t mind having PRT standards equal for everyone across the board. I want equality in my Navy and other branches for that matter, a couple more push-ups won`t hurt.

Response by SCPO David Lockwood made Jun 3 at 2015 1:29 PM

2015-06-03T13:29:45-04:00

The reality of your question PO3 Poe is no. Will we ever be equal? I would say no, and not that I am against it but there are way too many men who just don't want to see this happen. There are also women who do not work to get themselves in a position to make them equal. I do hope that one day equality will happen between the sexes because I have had women work their butts off and have done a better job for me than the men. I am all for equality!

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2015 3:17 PM

2015-06-03T15:17:30-04:00

It should be equal opportunity to succeed. This means to set reasonable goals that are achievable by the vast majority. The key is to have an understanding that there are physical differences between men and women so the testing will be different. What seems to be our point of contention is can both sexes do the same common tasks for their jobs?

I keep hearing thoughts of dragging a wounded, loaded down comrade but do we have an official method that we use to test this task? Until we do, we won't know if people can or cannot accomplish this task.

To sum it up we should test for an outcome and base the scales of the test to that outcome. Example: drag a dummy with weapon and load. Standard:50 meter drag, 150 meter litter carry Maximum Score: 150 meter drag; 300 meter litter carry

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Jun 3 at 2015 4:58 PM

2015-06-03T16:58:30-04:00

I have always thought that before we bring women into Combat Arms, we should start with same standards to APFT, but what do I know...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-06-03T20:23:45-04:00

As a female 2nd lieutenant, I do not set policy. Therefore, I have no control whatsoever over the APFT scoring scale. Nevertheless, I can "be the change I want to see in the world." My mindset is that I want to be the best of the best when it comes to PT. 70+ PU, 100+ SU, and a sub-13:00 2 mile is the bare minimum. If you do not want to be the best, you're wrong, and you're part of the problem. As a competitive person, I do not strive for equality. :-) That would be setting the bar far too low.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 3 at 2015 8:23 PM

2015-06-03T20:23:59-04:00

The Marines tried to do this. They wanted to make 3 pull ups a requirement across the corps. It didn't work out. One thing that so many are neglecting is what would you do with those that don't make the cut. Many women, just like you, would really need to double their push ups. So if they said you have till the end of the year to do this how many wouldn't make it. The Marines gave up due to so many failing initialing. It would have halted promotions for a large amount of females Marines. I agree in an equal standard but I am not for reducing the male standard. The issue is that we can't have it both ways.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 4 at 2015 3:40 AM

2015-06-04T03:40:13-04:00

I have often said, "If they want PFA standards to be equal, set the standard to what females have to do." In other words, men have to meet the women's standards.

I'm not joking or being nasty, I'm being serious.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 9:08 AM

2015-06-04T09:08:06-04:00

http://youtu.be/SqHg-aaUQzI

Here's a video on increasing your push-ups. Let us know how it works for you.

SSG TY LESANE

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 4 at 2015 5:44 PM

2015-06-04T17:44:31-04:00

I always hate this question, as it's based on a misunderstanding of the purpose of the PRT. Can't speak to the Navy's test, but the Army's PRT is to measure a level of exertion -- not a static level of output.

We have different requirements by age and by gender because the Army essentially is asking, "Is Snuffy putting out 100% effort, 80% effort, 40% effort, or what?" And given the average age and gender of Snuffy, that's going to look different. All the PRT is supposed to tell the Army is whether or not Snuff has a basic level of fitness sufficient enough to partake in military service.

If you want to know about whether Snuffy can meet certain requirements (e.g., for airborne school), then we have requirements for those schools, period.

Essentially, we're asking if an item tastes like a fruit. As long as the apples and the oranges both taste like fruits, we're good. If we need all fruit to at least mimic oranges to be edible, then that's a different question.

[Of note, however, if you look at the newest manual, it states the purpose of the APFT is to assess the Physical Readiness Training program itself. This is a far cry from even being an assessment of individual skill -- humans would actually be just the hamsters in the training lab.]

Response by Cpl Samantha Purucker made Jun 5 at 2015 12:48 AM

2015-06-05T00:48:53-04:00

Unfortunately the reality of the genders is we are not created equal. Women are made to have a higher body fat count to help with the bearing of children. The hormonal differences mean it's harder to put on the same muscle mass as a guy. Put in the simplest terms, testosterone helps build muscle with excess fat stored in the abdomen, estrogen/progesterone make it difficult to build muscle with most fat located in the hips, thighs and breasts. Testosterone levels don't change much, estrogen and progesterone levels flux monthly. We are not the same physically and setting the bar equally would be scientifically speaking, ridiculous.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2015 1:07 AM

2015-06-05T01:07:45-04:00

I am glad that we as a military and as society are pushing so hard for equality. I'm from Wyoming. "The Equality State". Also the first state in the union to allow women to vote. We were taught from a young age that ethnicity and gender don't matter if someone can get the job done.

That said as far as physical fitness scores go it boils down to physiology. Men and women are by no means equal by design physically. Our bodies were designed to do different things. Thats not saying that men are superior in any way. In fact some of the fastest distance runners I know are females at my command. Norming the PT standars will do one of two things. 1, create a culture of laziness among men because their standars are lower and don't have to try as hard or cause the PT scores to skyrocket and more outstandings. Or 2, cause either loss of retention for females or a rift in eval scores due to the PT issues. Is it fair of us to ask more of females by raising standards to norm them while making it easier for men?

This is truly a sensitive issue that will probably going through many iterations before something goes right. I just hope that in the end the right person be it male or female, for the job gets to do the job.

Response by CH (1LT) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 11 at 2015 1:13 PM

2015-06-11T13:13:18-04:00

This has always bothered me as a male soldier. When I was 18 I had to do 42 pushups to pass an APFT where as a female soldier would max her APFT with 42 pushups. At the end of BCT I struggled for every one of those 42 pushups with the thought of failing being a real possibility, while knowing that female soldiers could do significantly fewer pushups and pass. I think the PT standards need to have a service wide minimum, and then have additional requirements that are MOS specific rather than a gender specific minimum score. As a former artillery shooter I don't care what gender you are, I care whether or not you can move M107 HE rounds repeatedly, quickly, and safely. They weigh approximately 100 pounds, and if you can't move them you don't need to be doing that job regardless of your gender.

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 5 at 2015 10:03 AM

2015-10-05T10:03:02-04:00

We may created equally, but the moment we start making decision ... we are completely different. When I choose to run 3 miles a day (not that i really do that), and the other guy watch movie and eat potato chips? guess what happen?

Female is the only hard topic. Are female created equally as man? that is a trick question. physically, we are not equal. thus ... we are already on a wrong footing of "equal" discussion. This is the part that all the disagreement started to appear, due to physically differences, politician and general public will start making conclusion.

Woman and man will never be equal in many things, but we can always share the equal rights ... but that is also hard to maintain too ... so I will only said life, liberty and property, we can be equal on. lol

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 5 at 2016 11:13 AM

2016-01-05T11:13:32-05:00

To answer your question simply... NO, we are not equal. "all men are created equal" is one of the biggest lies ever told. Some are taller. Some are smarter. Some are stronger. etc, etc, etc. Should everyone have equal opportunity? definitely yes. However, we are not all equal.