Are we truly still "at war"?

SGT Ben Keen — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 07:41:52 -0500

This question was asked to me last night and it sort of struck a cord. It had me thinking and, truthfully, I do not have an answer. However, I feel as though it is a valid question after 14 years of combat operations against the terrorists that reside in the Middle East.

For some of us here, the War on Terrorism was something that we had to deal with. We enlisted prior to the attacks on 9/11, yet quickly found ourselves putting our training into practice seemingly overnight. Now, 14 years later, there are service members with more than 5 combat deployments. Multiple deployments have almost become the standard rather than the exception. Prior to 9/11, combat patches were a rare thing to see. Those with them were seen as being there and doing that while the rest of us waited for our chance to prove ourselves. Now, those without one are sometimes viewed in a different light by those with them. Heck, some of us have been awarded enough combat patches that we can change them out daily and never repeat during the week.

Then there are the newer service members. The 18, 19, 20 year old enlisting straight out of high school and finding a different military then when I enlisted in 1999. I know other Veterans say the same about the service members that follow them but as I look around, I am continuously surprised by the character of these new service members. When I enlisted, it was suggested that you *may* deploy. Now, it is not a question of "if" but a question of "when" you will deploy. Yet, over the years, we have seen the deployments change. In Iraq in 2003, our deployment was a fight; each day was uncertain as the battlefield kept evolving as one side tried to come up with new ways to counter the other side's actions. Now, vehicles like the HMMWV have been replaced by tank-like trucks with V-shaped hauls and enough armor to take several RPG rounds. We have become smarter, faster, better equipped over the past 14 years but are we still at war?

Are we forever going to be "at war"? Is the government going to keep deploying service members to take the fight to the enemy in 2020 under the same executive order that sent me to Iraq in 2003? What will the history books say about us? Will our children and our children's children learn about how after a surprise attack, thousands of men and women answered the nation's call and did one heck of a job? Or will this time be viewed as a military Groundhog Day?

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 7:45 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 07:45:41 -0500

Our children will see that we had a chance to stop Al Quaida before 9/11. We can go back to the early 80s when Hezbollah with possibly Iran's help blew up 241 Marines in Lebanon. We can go to the bombings of the embassies in Africa and the attack of the USS Cole before 9/11. We almost had a few planes blown, called the Bojinka plot, up flying from Asia to the USA in the early 90s but Phillipine Police found the mastermind's laptop. We ignored the attack on the twin towers in 1993.

We attacked Iraq as a scapegoat in 2003. We invaded Afghanistan in late 2001 once the Taliban did not hand over Osama Bin Laden. We were attacked by Iranian EFPs made by Iran while trying to pacify Iraq from 2003-2011 and we did nothing against Iran. The proxy fight between Al Quaida, Hezbollah, Iran and now ISIL filling in the power vacuum we left behind in Iraq is so frustrating. I believe we are in World WAR V. WW3 was the cold war and Vietnam. WW4 was Iraq and Afghanistan and now WW5 is 4 continued but with Pan-national groups that I just mentioned. Hard to say when this will end. Saudi Arabia is the Mother of ISIL. Iran is the Mother of Hezbollah and Hamas and both want Israel DEAD. Israel is also in this too for survival since 1948 and its history covers all world wars from 3 on. Iran and Korea are loose canons. Hopefully Pakistan and India, both nuclear, don't blow each other up. The Korean WAR is technically going on..just frozen in carbonite though the cockroach dear leader said he is ready for war and he is fueling up his ICBM test rocket. Japan is ready to shoot down the missle. We have new equipment, new planes that have bugs in them and new retirement plan that may give 20% less to servicemembers and yet we have a 2 front war looming anywhere and we have maybe enough forces for one major war. Add Russia wanting to go back to WW3 cold war days and we have a mess. Lets take some of the carbon tax money that President Obama has pushed and use some of that money to fund a new USMC MEF and let us put 3 brigades of supplies for 60 days of war in the Baltics and put one heavy BCT to guard the gear and let us put 100 A-10s in the UK so they can be on standby once Russia does its battle of the bulge into Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. The Peace Dividend is as genuine as an Iranian agreement or a Confederate Dollar. When in Peace, Prepare for War!

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Feb 5 at 2016 7:48 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 07:48:36 -0500

We are still at "war" just not the same kind of "war" as we were as little as 10 years ago and totally different than what we had 25 years ago and even more different than the end of Vietnam when some of our most Senior Leaders joined.

Unfortunately, we don't have a clear cut enemy (i.e. they follow the Geneva conventions) and we are not fighting a government regime.

The historical view will likely be the same as Vietnam. Judged based on the politics and how they limited/enabled the military execution and how the military leadership handled those influences.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 8:10 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:10:11 -0500

Every day, it seems like that war is not only still on-going...but spreading. When you fight a conventional enemy, someone "wins", and someone "loses". When you fight a non-conventional war against an enemy that has only local interest...the fight ends when you leave the area they are interested in. But when you fight a non-conventional war, against an enemy that wants to dominate the globe...has the resources, intent and opportunity to do so, and is more than willing to bring that war right back to your doorstep-I don't think it ever ends.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Feb 5 at 2016 8:15 AM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:15:04 -0500

We've never "not been at war."

Whether it was the Tax rebellions, the Indian Wars, expansion of the Nation, Civil War, World Wars, Cold War Conflicts, or the Middle East, our Government has clung to every possible excuse to maintain a "Monopoly of Force" and as large of one as possible.

I'm not saying one isn't needed, but having ready access to one does present the "If all you have is a Hammer, everything looks like Nails" philosophy. We tend to be quick to respond with Military Might.

Now I realize that our Military mission has changed from one of National Defense to one of Global Stability, and that requires a Force of Deterrence, and one that can respond on a Global Scale... but I think we lean towards "inefficient usage" (not over usage).

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 5 at 2016 8:21 AM

SGT Ben Keen — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:21:36 -0500

I was going to try and comment back on each response so far but with these type of comments it is truly very hard. I am amazed by what everyone is saying! Everyone has brought some great things to the table in this discussion so far.

So thank you TSgt Joshua Copeland, Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS, LCDR Private RallyPoint Member, and LTC Private RallyPoint Member for some amazing input. I cannot wait to see where this discussion goes!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 8:28 AM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:28:01 -0500

The argument could be made that although we aren't at war with radical islam, radical islam is at war with us.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Feb 5 at 2016 8:34 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:34:00 -0500

I think the 1st step is to define who "we" are. The American public was never much of a stakeholder in this conflict after 9/11 (i.e. the public was never "at war"), but its military was. The general public made little to no sacrifice; it didn't serve and didn't know many folks, if any, who fought overseas, much less died there. Except as a plot setting in movies or TV, the war was out of sight and out of mind for the overwhelming majority of Americans. Let's be honest, more civilian Americans can name more winners of American Idol than service members who died during GWAT. The bill for the war was put on American's limitless credit card and the only real reminder for the average civilian American that it's military war fighting was the occasional news blurb or blog post.

Now, as for if we are still at "war", I'd say that we are trying to address a festering wound on the world body these days than fighting a war.

Response by SPC Makissa Lewis made Feb 5 at 2016 8:53 AM

SPC Makissa Lewis — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 08:53:26 -0500

We are at war with ourselves. The domestic issues that we keep sweeping under the rug must be dealt with. As for the international sphere, I do think that depends on how our enemies and allies view us.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 9:25 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 09:25:56 -0500

SGT Ben Keen This is how I like to answer this question, because I get it often as well. You don't get to choose whether or not you are at war with an enemy. The enemy continually attacks you and you are at war. War is simply armed conflict between two groups. You do however get to choose the tactics used to fight the war.

The analogy I use is two people locked in a room - if person x wants to fight person y then the two people in the room are going to fight. No matter how bad person y does not want to fight, they are going to be in a fight as long as person x continues starting a fight. The question then turns to tactics.

The U.S. is in the same predicament; we don't want to be at war but tens of thousands of radical muslims want to continually attack us. We can tell them that this isn't nice and we don't want to be at war so please leave us alone, but they don't really care. In my opinion, our failure as a country to accept this is our biggest problem in developing a true strategy to address our current fight. Politicians continue to argue whether we should be in a perpetual war as if we have a choice. The discussion should start from the premise, we are at war, now what tactics should we use? Should we submit our enemy by overwhelming force? Should we focus on defense because we don't want to spend the lives and money on continual deployments? Is there a balance that is acceptable - strong defense and persistant CT to keep the enemy off balance? The discussion needs to focus on strategy and tactics rather than whether or not we are at war - in my opinion.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 9:35 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 09:35:56 -0500

All politicians start and fight wars. Republican presidents like public wars, Democrats covert ones but they all wage war. The current administration has chosen to label the current situation as "not at war", however within SOCOM some may say little has changed. You decide.
The POTUS made a promise to end the wars. Officially that has happened. Are we still fighting and arenamericans still dying, of course. My concern is that these soldiers may not be entitled to same benefits, awards or recognition that they would have been had the battles they are fighting been "labeled a war".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 10:31 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 10:31:02 -0500

This whole "war" that we are still technically fighting is reminiscent of the proxy wars that occurred during the Cold War (the Vietnam conflict being the most well known in the U.S.). In fact, all the unrest and violence occurring in the Middle East has actually been ebbing and flowing for decades; what we are in now is simply a continuation of unresolved prior conflicts.

On another note, the United States was forged from warfare. Politicians always seem to get us involved in conflicts, whether or not they have anything to do with us. It's a vie for global power, control, and proximity positioning; if one were inclined to stretch definitions a bit, one could call it neo-colonialism.

But, I digress. More on point to your question, I think that currently, we are witnessing the birth of Cold War Version 2.0; sone venues and characters are the same, some are different. And, I believe (just my opinion), we may see World War III in our lifetimes because of all the current proxies. The U.S. and Russia are still the main characters, but now others are more bold in vying for power, making it slightly more dangerous. As well, should WWIII actually form, it will be very unlike the first two.

So, perhaps a "military Groundhog Day" is what we are witnessing; no matter what our government says, we still have troops in the fight, which means we are still at war.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Feb 5 at 2016 10:33 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 10:33:54 -0500

War has to be declared, ergo, no war. Like Korea and Viet Nam, merely conflicts, just on a much larger geographical scale. Sarcasm

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 5 at 2016 10:34 AM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 10:34:30 -0500

History books will show that we were pathetic at understanding Human Terrain and fighting Insurgencies.

Response by SPC David S. made Feb 5 at 2016 11:16 AM

SPC David S. — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 11:16:58 -0500

I feel the answer on this very much depends on the individual's perspective. For example my family's military history - Grandfathers served in WWII - wife's and my father and our uncles all served Korean and Vietnam, then me a Cold War warrior up to the Gulf War. So from my perspective its much like that of Captain Koons from pulp fiction - I wear the watch that's been passed down from one generation to the next and I will always believe that there will always be some asshole whose going to try to take it off me. So the war part is unfortunately a constant - at least for me. As to how it goes down in the history books one can only answer that question further down the road. You have to realize though sometimes the truth hurts - covert coup to keep the communist at bay in Iran by supporting Iraq lead to Gulf War. Similarly in A'stan - supporting Mujahideen lead to Taliban and 9/11. When you pick up a sword via policy or tangible expect your foes to do the same and never expect history to be kind about you doing it.

Response by Capt Seid Waddell made Feb 5 at 2016 12:29 PM

Capt Seid Waddell — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 12:29:40 -0500

The enemy also has a vote on this. We will be at war as long as the enemy is at war with us, no matter what we wish the case to be.

Response by 1stLt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2016 1:14 PM

1stLt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 13:14:36 -0500

We aren't in a conventional war on the scale of World War II, basically conventional armies facing each other on battlefields. During Desert Storm and the initial invasion of Iraq we rapidly dominated the conventional Iraqi Army and ended those conventional wars. After the initial invasion, it turned into a counter-insurgency against guerilla fighters. Enemies of the United States understand that they have no way of defeating the U.S. military conventionally, so they adopted a different strategy. On the flip side, we have Vietnam and Afghanistan where it has been a battle against guerilla-style insurgency. The insurgents took pages from Mao's book on guerilla warfare, and know that it is very difficult for conventional armies to defeat guerillas without popular support of the local people. I would say we are and have been at war against ever increasing numbers of guerilla insurgencies in Afghanistan and Iraq, spreading throughout the Middle East and perhaps the world. The U.S. and it's coalition declared a 'global war on terrorism,' and nominated several nations as an 'axis of evil.' The enemy, (who always has a vote) i.e. 'axis of evil' declared war on the U.S. and it's coalition.

Response by Capt Richard I P. made Feb 5 at 2016 2:06 PM

Capt Richard I P. — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 14:06:17 -0500

Always. The peace of empires is built on endless war. I used to know the right way to judge that, I don't anymore.

Response by SSG James Arlington made Feb 5 at 2016 2:53 PM

SSG James Arlington — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 14:53:09 -0500

War with ourselves.

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Feb 5 at 2016 3:39 PM

SSG Michael Scott — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 15:39:20 -0500

Yes, we are, and 22 Veterans per day, 22 is too many,

Response by CAPT Tom Bersson made Feb 5 at 2016 7:06 PM

CAPT Tom Bersson — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 19:06:20 -0500

We are beyond war only being declared. not that we should be, but we are.

Response by SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS made Feb 5 at 2016 9:44 PM

SSG Dwight Amey MSA, MSL, BS, AS — Fri, 05 Feb 2016 21:44:22 -0500

Yes. The violence in the world wants to reach our main land. How could we not be at war. Do we want to fight on our land or theirs? We do not have the time or convenience to wait on other countries or groups not want to attack us.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2016 1:00 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 06 Feb 2016 01:00:07 -0500

The president seems happy to ruin the military. He sucks.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Feb 6 at 2016 1:15 AM

COL Charles Williams — Sat, 06 Feb 2016 01:15:09 -0500

SGT Ben Keen ... Excellent Question! When I was a Battalion Commander... 2004ish... One of the my CSMs used to say the Army was at war... I believe he was right... The last time our Nation was at war was WWII... The Military is definitely still at war...

Response by COL Ted Mc made Feb 6 at 2016 3:46 AM

COL Ted Mc — Sat, 06 Feb 2016 03:46:44 -0500

SGT Ben Keen - Sergeant; The military has been "at war" for decades. The government has been "at war" for decades.

However, America (the country) hasn't been "at war" since the end of WWII.

Response by PO2 Sam Tkach made Feb 7 at 2016 4:44 AM

PO2 Sam Tkach — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 04:44:35 -0500

Since, I have not served in the Army, so it might appear like a silly question: but, could you please explain to me what does it mean Groundhod Day?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 7 at 2016 10:03 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 10:03:25 -0500

Yes

Response by MSgt Robert Slagle made Feb 7 at 2016 3:50 PM

MSgt Robert Slagle — Sun, 07 Feb 2016 15:50:44 -0500

As long as brave Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Contractors are being put in harms way and precious lives are being lost we are at war regardless of what the media, congress or the POTUS call it.

Response by MAJ Montgomery Granger made Feb 9 at 2016 2:53 PM

MAJ Montgomery Granger — Tue, 09 Feb 2016 14:53:27 -0500

The Global War on Terror actually started in November 1979 with the taking of the American hostages from our embassy in Teheran, Iran. But on November 21, 1979, the first casualty (death) in the war was CPL Steven Crowley, USMC. Steven was guarding the U.S. embassy in Islamabad, Pakistan, when, on false rumors of U.S. forces taking over the most holy Muslim mosque at Mecca, Saudi Arabia, which were publicized throughout the Middle East, armed Pakistani "students" were bused to the embassy in Islamabad and began to overrun the compound. Steven was on the roof at the time of the attack and was struck in the head with a bullet from the "students." He was taken to the safe room on the second floor and given first aid and oxygen by the compound's nurse. Unfortunately, unable to evacuate him to a hospital, and out of oxygen, Steven expired several hours after being shot. The "students" tried to burn the staff out of the building, but eventually were made to leave by very tardy Islamabad police and Pakistani Army. From that point on, and not since the Barbary Wars, Islam was at war with the West and specifically the United States of America. Bombings, murders and destructive incidents up to and including the terror attacks of 9/11/2001 are all evidence of this war. More recently, world wide incidents of terror aimed at U.S. personnel and our allies have increased. The Authorization for the Use of Military Force is still in effect. Islamists are still trying to kill us. Even though President Obama pulled all U.S. troops out of Iraq in 2011 and declared the Global War on Terror "over" in 2013, apparently, the enemy was not listening. Until all Islamists are dead or no longer have the means or will to kill us we must defend ourselves.

Response by PFC Tuan Trang made Feb 11 at 2016 1:09 AM

PFC Tuan Trang — Thu, 11 Feb 2016 01:09:36 -0500

I don't call it "war", I call it "Landing a hand" to any ally or countries that needed.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 11 at 2016 4:51 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Feb 2016 16:51:05 -0500

yes we are we didnt it right

Response by SSG Michael Scott made Feb 12 at 2016 12:36 PM

SSG Michael Scott — Fri, 12 Feb 2016 12:36:23 -0500

Folks, It has been one year since the Clay Hunt Suicide Prevention Act was signed by the CNC.
It took 18 months for it to go through the red tape and BS to get on the president's desk.
Now, there are still too many Veterans who are doing, thinking, or committing suicide. The funding needs to be used for our Veterans, not refugees or immigrants. It is time to take care of ALL of our own 1st. Period.

Response by MAJ David Wallace made Feb 24 at 2016 8:13 PM

MAJ David Wallace — Wed, 24 Feb 2016 20:13:28 -0500

Unfortunately, our military is still at war. Our government, our society, and our nation are not. If we are going to be in a perpetual state of war, we need the full support of our government and our country. Sadly, that hasn't happened since World War II, when everyone had 'skin in the game.'

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 29 at 2016 3:41 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 29 Feb 2016 15:41:52 -0500

It's pretty obvious that Iran and ISIS consider themselves at war with is. The real question is what it will take for us to recognize that.

Response by SSG Wesley Peck made May 9 at 2016 5:23 AM

SSG Wesley Peck — Mon, 09 May 2016 05:23:58 -0400

The short answer to "Are we still at war" is..yes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 8:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 08:40:16 -0400

I feel we are not at war, but we need to be. I have that "unfinished business" feeling about it. I say a war isn't over until your enemy is destroyed. Truly destroyed.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2016 2:00 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jun 2016 14:00:21 -0400

We're certainly still in combat. Whish is one of the things that always surprises be when people talk about how entitled the newest generation of soldiers is. Really? A group of people who have joined the military, despite growing up in a time when we have never been at peace, are selfish and entitled?

Response by SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM made Sep 14 at 2017 7:05 AM

SFC William Stephens A. Jr., 3 MSM, JSCM — Thu, 14 Sep 2017 07:05:05 -0400

As Author of my new book coming out I wrote this about WAR!

WAR OF GOD
GOD is the reason we have war and have had biblical wars for years. The other day while I laid in the hospital, a chaplain came in to see me and ask me “if I needed anything special from the word of GOD.” I just laid there and said, “Who is GOD?” because there are many gods that we all pray to and if it wasn’t for GOD I would not be laying here today. This world will always be at some kind of war between one another because people will always die. I think by this time I caught her attention because the air was silent. I asked her, “How would it feel to live in a total world of peace?” She would not have a job and those who create weapons for war would not have jobs because we would not be at war with each other.
I understand that people say we fight for GOD and country but we really don’t because look what our people have done to GOD in this country. They removed him from our money and our schools and even banned him from public events. Do you still say you fight for GOD to protect our country? Our country was built on the founding fathers and the right of FREEDOM. That is why we live in the country. We are not here to die for GOD, we die for our FREEDOM and for our people to be free. Other countries die for their gods because when terrorist attack us they use their god’s name when going to death or attacking us. You don’t hear American’s screaming GOD, GOD, GOD when they are attacking the enemy in other countries in combat?
Listening to a former friend who was an Infantry Chaplain who buried 150 of his soldiers, lost his own driver and picked up a weapon in combat to survive on the battle field, I can see why he gave up his cross and GOD for the life he lives today. War, why do we have it? Why do we have to lose the many men and women when they go to battle? Are we really winning that war?
Many different visions of our Lord and God but overall from my view in life; we all serve the same purpose here for one GOD. A GOD is a GOD and we will fight until the end, until life remains no more and we are all gone. GOD will be as one. The world will be no more.
Getting back to the hospital room, I told the lady chaplain that I believe in GOD, though it might not be the GOD that she believes in. If I did not have a faith, I would not have made it through my combat tours or multiple deployments to tell my story. I told her there are more people out there hurting than me and she should be in other rooms spreading the word of faith to someone who her creator is about to take.
She was speechless as she looked at me and said, “Thank you for your story.” I think that day I changed her life on the way she looks at GOD and why we fight for our countries wars and our freedom. I am not the word of GOD and I am not here to spread rumors, but every author has their view on life. My past was tough on me with several break-ups and a divorce, separation of a child and a terrible disorder I have to live with the rest of my life Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. All I’m asking is for you to make the right choice when you make decisions in life because sometimes you can’t go back. It may be too late to rebuild the wall you have torn down. One God and only one GOD lives amongst us and no one will ever understand until we destroy each other and with weapons of mass destruction (WMD) or GOD himself.
SAM007