Army Commander requires troops to wear ACUs with no badges/combat patches?

2015-06-15T21:57:12-04:00

What is RP"s thoughts on this "extreme makeover" Army edition?

http://m.gazette.com/fort-carson-colonel-makes-uniform-adjustment-during-training/article/1553718?custom_click=rss

Fort Carson colonel makes uniform adjustment during training | gazette.com

PIÑON CANYON - An Army uniform is normally a cloth resume, showing where soldiers have fought and how they've been trained.Experience is obvious at first glance, with jump wings, combat patches and other job-related insignia.But that's not the case for Fort Carson's 1st Brigade Combat Team, where commanders have banned everything but the flag, last name, rank, U.S. ARMY and the 4th Infantry Division insignia during training this month for the...

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Jun 15 at 2015 10:03 PM

2015-06-15T22:03:30-04:00

Interesting idea, next they should remove rank symbols and see who emerges as the final leader after being tasked as in Ranger or SF selection.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 15 at 2015 11:00 PM

2015-06-15T23:00:31-04:00

I would get really pissed if I had to cut it off and sew it back on. This will lead to guys having "field" Uniforms and garrison Uniforms...bad call

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Jun 15 at 2015 11:26 PM

2015-06-15T23:26:20-04:00

Works for me. I'm not happy about making troops pay to cut them all off and sew them back on, but "Arrrrrrrmy training, Sir!" Bring the pain! (since I'm retired)

Response by SGT Hector Rojas, AIGA, SHA made Jun 15 at 2015 11:54 PM

2015-06-15T23:54:15-04:00

hhmm...couldn't find anything in the regulation re commanders banning the wear of badges and/or patches that the soldier is authorized to wear.

Regulation does say the commander can allow items to be placed in the uniform, not removed from it.

Commander can also determine the uniform to be worn. Not what patches or badges to be worn.

Gotta love Fort Carson...beautiful scenery.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jun 16 at 2015 12:22 AM

2015-06-16T00:22:41-04:00

If I were CSA.... I would do the same...

Response by TSgt David L. made Jun 16 at 2015 12:30 AM

2015-06-16T00:30:22-04:00

I thought that the commander had flipped his lid and required the troops to wear a uniform that doesn't comply with 670-1.
I was wrong of course. He just made everyone strip off hard earned badges and patches. That's all. He's only ALMOST crazy. But what do I know! LMAO

Response by MSG Donald R. Lee, M.B.A. made Jun 16 at 2015 12:41 AM

2015-06-16T00:41:02-04:00

I get the idea the Bde Cdr is trying to get across, One Team, One Fight, etc. But they should've learned that in Basic, right? It reminds me of how several years back some of the Guard units I was in decided NOT to have the traditional Class A inspection and wearing them for the annual Christmas function. Some thought then that they didn't want to embarrass the younger Soldiers. What I remember - both as a young Soldier and later as a young Marine - was seeing that SGM or GySgt with all of their ribbons and badges and service stripes and thinking, "Man, if I work hard and keep my nose clean, etc., maybe one day I can be like him." It's not about badge or ribbon hunting; it was about the respect I had for a life of service and the uniform that told me all the places he had been, all the campaigns he had served in, the schools he had attended, etc. Badge hunters are easy to spot; it's the character of the warrior that makes the difference and earns the respect. I'm afraid this Cdr has been listening to the same guy who said, "Hey, let's give 'em all black berets and they'll all turn into Rangers."

Just my $.02 worth.

Response by SFC Michael Whipple made Jun 16 at 2015 6:43 AM

2015-06-16T06:43:54-04:00

I'm not really sure how to take this. I wore my skill badges, which made the new blood, in a way, admire us and want to someday be as good as his peers that have accomplished these tasks. Character counts, as the COL stated, and to me, it's all about presentation with your resume', not just character. The Infantry and Medics have badges that show people, peers, and supervisors, that they know their job and can perform tasks to standard. I am referring to the Expert Infantryman Badge and the Expert Field Medic Badge. If I were new to a unit, I have a feeling I would look up to those Soldiers that earned those awards. I don't see it lasting too long.

Response by PO2 Skip Kirkwood made Jun 16 at 2015 7:18 AM

2015-06-16T07:18:46-04:00

A bit more like the USMC approach to uniforms. All for the team, less about "me."

It probably also makes starting conversations just a bit more difficult....

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 7:56 AM

2015-06-16T07:56:21-04:00

Truthfully, do we always need to be on parade with a resume, even in the field? Reminding everyone that we are all equal at some level of unity may be humbling to some--and if so, it's needed to avoid Egos -n- Attitudes.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 10:43 AM

2015-06-16T10:43:41-04:00

I don't ever wear badges or anything in the field, but for something that I earned, if in Garrison, I want to wear it. But it is ultimately the CDR's call. The whole welcoming new blood thing is bit stupid to me, I remember coming in and seeing the badges and tabs my NCOs wore. I was thinking, "One day, I'll earn that."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 16 at 2015 11:36 AM

2015-06-16T11:36:21-04:00

I have mixed feelings about this issue . . . .

In my previous unit (an infantry company), I didn't wear any of my badges on my uniform because I thought it was a hassle to put them on and because I didn't like the attitude certain badge hunters had. I put them on only once -- at a family function when we were getting ready to deploy, because I wanted to reassure the soldiers' loved ones that the soldiers were in experienced and capable hands.

However, when I did an interstate transfer to another unit (a military police company), I decided to go ahead and put them on. And, I found that I didn't have to prove myself all over again. People saw that I'd served overseas and that I'd seen combat. And, they knew where I stood in terms of tactical and technical expertise. Sometimes, I'd get deferred to. Sometimes, I'd get assigned additional training tasks. But, they had a better idea of what they had (me and others) as resources amongst the NCO Corps.

I can understand why a commander might want to limit the wearing of badges if we're talking about the former issue -- the attitude that certain badge hunters have. And, he probably can't put it quite like that. However, the rationale that he used to explain his decision is a bit weak.

At this point, we've been deployed overseas quite a bit and everyone has had the chance to go on a deployment. And, if you haven't gone on one, I think that says something. So, I don't think the opinion of someone who has stayed home every time the unit was deployed should be given the same weight as the opinion of someone who has been overseas several time. And, the sanitized uniform does that -- putting everyone into a level of equal obscurity.

Response by SFC Maury Gonzalez made Jun 16 at 2015 12:32 PM

2015-06-16T12:32:44-04:00

Since badges can be sewn in the uniforms, is requesting that soldiers buy and maintain garisson and field uniforms now?
Just becasuse he dont want pvt's to feel bad......

Response by SPC Larry Boutwell made Jun 17 at 2015 1:04 PM

2015-06-17T13:04:23-04:00

Jaut another reason to be glad im out... Those patches are badges of honor and i feel ita a disgrace not to wear them

Response by 1SG Chris Brown made Jun 17 at 2015 1:36 PM

2015-06-17T13:36:48-04:00

Funny. I thought the Army had a standard. But apparently the standard is not the standard. I understand minor adjustments to a uniform requirement in some areas based on special unit circumstances or mission. But to ban everything that is specifically authorized by regulation? As a good Soldier, of course I would comply. But nothing says I have to agree. Where the heck is the CSM? And is this the stance of 4th ID? Apparently every Brigade can have their own standard.

Response by MAJ Jim Steven made Jun 17 at 2015 1:58 PM

2015-06-17T13:58:05-04:00

If I am not mistaken, what he is implementing doesnt actually violate our beloved AR 670-1.

In other words, while you are authorized to wear your flair, he is authorized to ban wearing the flair.

Not sure how I feel about it...but I get his logic. I am not sure why you need to wear a "cloth resume...?" Dont you have an ORB/ERB??
Then again, what would tab checkers and ring knockers do if we werent wearing our tabs and rings...?

in the grand scheme...I think this is one of those things that doesnt really have an effect, other than people crying about it on social media - no real effect, positive or negative, at the unit.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 2:39 PM

2015-06-17T14:39:55-04:00

Well by definition it is a uniform - consistent or unchanging.

I don't wear my SSI-FWTS or any other lickies and chewies on my ACUs.
1) I like to see the assumption looks I get as folks say "how the eff is he a 1SG without being deployed"

2) In signal land there seems to be a one-up-manship to combat patches. "Oh I was in this (insert REMF signal unit) but we had a phone running to he CJSOTF so I wear the JSOC patch"
I maintain I wear a combat patch while many in the signal corp wear a deployment patch.

So I go around with nothing but name tape, U.S. army, and Rank and let my actions speak to my experiences and qualifications. And if you are really that curious, like the PFC at CIF Monday, just ask me.

I like the idea. The man is trying to create a culture. Will he get there in two years, most likely not. But I think he had a good idea.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 17 at 2015 2:58 PM

2015-06-17T14:58:23-04:00

Training this month, means that the less experience soldiers learn from the more experience soldiers, so now no one can tell who has the experience. Looks like the CO lacks experience too.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Jun 17 at 2015 3:15 PM

2015-06-17T15:15:49-04:00

I see pro and con to both sides of this.

I can see where the new troops would look to the experienced members for guidance. I can also see where the CO wants to emphasize character as much as "back in the day" stuff.

I've seen more seasoned troops get complacent using their past achievements to carry them through. I've also seen untested troops straight from training units run circles around the "old guys" when it comes to newer technology and/or tactics.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 4:17 PM

2015-06-17T16:17:29-04:00

More concerned about people feelings. Welcome to the new fighting force of the 21st Century.

Let's give everyone a mandatory nap after chow, too.

Response by CW2 John Brookins made Jun 17 at 2015 4:31 PM

2015-06-17T16:31:48-04:00

Well the most important thing is that we don't hurt anyone's feelings. It's simply not fair for a soldier to be able to wear something another soldier has not earned yet. I mean it’s insulting to the young soldier. They might even cry.

Aha I think a slick uniform is fine but the reasoning bothers me. When I was a young trooper those badges and tabs where signs of experience, challenges and knowledge. It was something to strive for.

Granted in my last years I didn’t wear much on my uniform other than name and rank. But that was my choice.

Response by MAJ George Buzby made Jun 17 at 2015 4:35 PM

2015-06-17T16:35:47-04:00

I think the Colonel has created a huge distraction from whatever training goals he's trying to achieve for his unit.

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 4:59 PM

2015-06-17T16:59:07-04:00

Commanders can do whatever they want. I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, it's just true. I've never been under two different commands where things have ever been the same. It's how they distinguish themselves form others.

Response by SSgt Everett Jones made Jun 17 at 2015 5:00 PM

2015-06-17T17:00:42-04:00

I was always told that you had to do something to in order to excel and be above the rest in order to be considered one of the best. Now, you can do it, but you can't show it? Most of the people I served with either didn't care about what others had, or it made them want to try harder. The things you earn mean something to most of the people who earn them, yes, they do cause jealousy among others, mainly people who do not have the drive to even try to accomplish what others have. I think that people who have earned something should be allowed to wear it, so that they can stand out among their peers, we do not need the everyone is equal so here's your trophy so showing up attitude in the military.

Response by SSG Mike Merritt made Jun 17 at 2015 5:06 PM

2015-06-17T17:06:59-04:00

Everywhere I have been, the field/training was just like a deployment, only the cadre wore their love me badges. Everyone else was basically sterile

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 5:11 PM

2015-06-17T17:11:33-04:00

"After training, soldiers will go back to displaying their impressive achievements. But in the field, they are all the same."

I really don't see an issue with that at all. For one it's not like you go to the field and all of a sudden forget that your squad leader or team leader deployed or has this badge or that tab.

Secondly, I personally maintain uniforms for garrison and the field; garrison uniform has the wings sewn on and deployment patch while the field uniform usually only has the patches and no badges and in most cases the deployment patch only serves as an extra patch in case an airborne tab gets lost in the woods or a buddy loses theirs.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 5:20 PM

2015-06-17T17:20:33-04:00

So...if you had all those badges sewn onto all your uniforms, is the Colonel paying to have the stuff put back on if you have to take it off with a seam ripper or is he going to go with the usual "clothing allowance" justification? Not to mention you are going to see where the badges used to be at on the uniform due to fading and where the stitches were (Remember BDU's when you changed unit patches?) I don't have any special skill badges, but this idea seems ridiculous. Just because someone is a commander, they don't have to "create a legacy."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 6:17 PM

2015-06-17T18:17:09-04:00

I think it's a great idea. Ditch the badges and tabs except on dress uniform. Your ERB/ORB has all that stuff on it. Too many tab chasers and arrogant idiots out there that think that is all that is important. Marine corps have the right idea, except for the wings and bubble (however most don't even wear them.) lay low and be professional, let their work show who they really are, no a bunch of "I completed an army school" flash

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jun 17 at 2015 6:24 PM

2015-06-17T18:24:41-04:00

I did always think that a Soldier's uniform looked a bit like that of a North Korean General's! :)

Response by SGT Richard H. made Jun 17 at 2015 6:41 PM

2015-06-17T18:41:48-04:00

I've known COL Hodne since 1991 when he was 2LT Hodne. I've kept in touch with him off and on for 23 years, and he's a damn good officer, with great instincts. He was hands down the best I've worked with at the Platoon level. I promise you, there's more coming off of his uniform than from most of the uniforms of his soldiers.

My bet is that he has a pretty sound reason for making this decision, and some good will come of it once all the social media whining has died down. Besides...it's a 30 day field training. What harm could possibly come of it?

Afterthought added: Ever heard of a College football coach making everyone remove their names from their uniforms to remind players that they are "playing for the name on the front"? It's happened a few times. This sounds a lot like that.

Response by SGT Curtis Earl made Jun 17 at 2015 7:25 PM

2015-06-17T19:25:58-04:00

I've missed whatever point he was trying to make. So do I wear all my gear in my DA photo? What about promotion boards? I can see him making this a personal choice, but I disagree with the unilateral decisions. It's within his rights, of course, but this choice seems arbitrary and personal.

Response by PVT David Seguin made Jun 17 at 2015 7:53 PM

2015-06-17T19:53:01-04:00

i got messed up in basic, but honestly, i have to say this, this guy has a great idea, they are letting the enemy into our military, the less you show where you have been, the less of a target you will be, and honestly, the more valued troops know each other, and thats what counts. showing all that on your sleeves, yes, it's a badge of honor, but it can also be a target painted on you, and i see where this man is coming from. just putting on the uniform is really a target, but even more so with the more medals you have, as they think some really weird stuff, along with the fact that hey, if you were a sniper, and you took out the enemy colonel, what kind of congratulations would you receive from your peers? think about it.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 10:22 PM

2015-06-17T22:22:29-04:00

Based on my reading of AR 670-1 the action taken by the commander was not authorized:
paragragh 2-6:
"f. Commanders will not require individuals to purchase optional uniform items. Likewise, they will not restrict or discourage them from wearing optional uniform items authorized by this regulation, except in those instances where uniformity is required, such as parades or formations."

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 17 at 2015 10:54 PM

2015-06-17T22:54:34-04:00

There have been several responses stating that this was a "PC" move on his part. I disagree somewhat; I believe that it's less about sparing feelings of new soldiers and more about reminding those with tabs/badges/patches that they can't just rest on their laurels. You might be an Airborne Ranger Sniper Expert Infantryman... that's awesome, but what are you doing TODAY to earn the respect of your subordinates and peers?

Also, from my understanding, this is only for wear in the field.

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Jun 18 at 2015 12:09 AM

2015-06-18T00:09:55-04:00

That's fantastic! I respect the idea behind it and I find this funny because I posted a similar topic not long ago. I personally don't think we should wear it in our combat uniform. Only in our dress blues. If someone needs to know your accomplishments they could, oh I don't know, maybe talk to you?!

Response by SFC Donald Neal made Jun 18 at 2015 1:22 AM

2015-06-18T01:22:55-04:00

Lots of great opinions and interpretations of the regulations. I can see why the commander chose to implement what he did. Sometimes breaking a mindset for some folks is difficult and he wanted to level things and get everybody's brain in the game. How many times have you ever been caught up in something stupid because some other clown fires off with "back at Bragg/other post someone came from" or some other nonsense?

I know I thoroughly enjoyed carrying AN/TAS-5s/MGSs/and TOW daysights as carry on luggage for our World Airways flight to JRTC, along with M2s with spare barrels, tripods, in addition to our personal weapons, NODS and other stuff. I distinctly remember stating the concept of carrying every other piece of equipment on the MTOE was a bad idea and then getting the "oh no jump wings???, then you have no clue about flying anywhere." diss. Kind of glad my Brigade Commander shut that down on the return flight. I was a platoon sergeant for that event, so it wasn't like I was fresh out of OSUT.

If your power base is established by patches and badges, then what are you going to do when you're not wearing them? I've been out for some time, but I think you establish it with "expert" power. Your Soldiers will figure out if you are capable of Be, Know, Do or posing; trust me they'll be discussing it before you realize.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 4:46 AM

2015-06-18T04:46:13-04:00

it doesn't seem any different that what we did in theater. No one wore special skill badges, CIB, CAB, when I was in Afghanistan. Name, rank, Unit patch. Period.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 2:23 PM

2015-06-18T14:23:05-04:00

I think that if a soldier has combat unit insignia That I think that z

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Jun 18 at 2015 3:36 PM

2015-06-18T15:36:51-04:00

This commander should be happy that he is in the Army and not the Air Force... His order would be illegal in the AF (to a certain degree anyway). By Air Force Regulations, Chaplain, and all flight wings WILL BE WORN. All others are optional. I miss my combat patch from my old Army days....and I was pretty sore about having to take it off (and still am to a certain degree) when I joined the AF. I found a loophole when I deployed to Afghanistan....I wore ACU/FRACU.... it is an ARMY uniform that I had to apply an AF Tape to.... but because it was an Army Uniform, I was able to wear my Combat Patch again from Desert Storm!

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 5:39 PM

2015-06-18T17:39:26-04:00

He won't be a commander for long.. Soldiers have earned those, who do he think he is to change the Reg.??

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Jun 18 at 2015 5:42 PM

2015-06-18T17:42:04-04:00

This came up the other day.

I can see "some" value in a sanitized uniform. By putting everyone on an equal footing, it removed the (perception) of a "been there, done that" attitude. Training is valuable for everyone, regardless of what schools you've been to, what deployments you've been on, and how many times you've completed the training.

In a sanitized uniform, all the "new guy" sees is other soldiers doing the training, either good or bad. He doesn't see the SF or Ranger tabbed guy blowing through it like it's cake, or the slick-sleeved SSG running into issues. He just sees Soldiers.

There's a time for having your resume on your chest and a time where it doesn't matter. Does it really matter during this particular phase of training?

I'm not knocking the wearing of badges, patches etc. But I can see the value of a sanitized uniform during a training evolution in the field.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 5:43 PM

2015-06-18T17:43:08-04:00

Bad idea. People earn those patches and take pride in them... They should be able to display them proudly.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-06-18T18:00:39-04:00

If you really want to put everyone on an equal footing have them remove their rank.

The fact of the matter is that while were all one team, we are not all on equal footing. Soldiers earned those combat patches and they should be encouraged to wear them. Acknowledging someones accomplishments doesn't lessen my own. I don't think this is a good idea.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 6:00 PM

2015-06-18T18:00:49-04:00

Anybody that gave one of my new Soldiers crap would get to see me for some quality time. I should not have to change everyone's uniform to make a new troop "comfortable". That is a bunch of new-age crap. You will get your chance to earn it someday, newbie.

When I was a young troop, we looked up in awe at the handful of Vietnam veterans left in the ranks. A little later, I found myself and my basic training buddy the only ones in the unit that hadn't been to the Gulf War. We heard all about it, but it only made me determined to meet the same expectations for performance all the "been there, done that" PFCs had. It motivated me.
I had to wait until 2003 - ten years, almost - to earn my first combat patch. I never felt inferior to anybody.

We are not here to coddle Soldiers or make them feel like they are special. They are members of my team every bit of valued as my thrice-deployed E-7s. Now get out there and train!

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jun 18 at 2015 6:04 PM

2015-06-18T18:04:46-04:00

I agree....BAD IDEA. Maybe because I have cool guy badges but still I think bad Idea.
As a private, I was inspired to attend schools and Looked up to my leaders BECAUSE of them. This guy is AIRBORNE, that guy has a CIB, WOW that guy has an EIB....That Medic knows his stuff...Look a CMB or a EFMB...

It is a good thing for young troops to aspire to the EIB or the Jump Wings or the Oft Coveted Bullwinkle Badge. It has worked since before World War Two...don't fix what ain't broken

Response by SGT Jeremiah B. made Jun 18 at 2015 6:08 PM

2015-06-18T18:08:50-04:00

Bad idea. I'm hearing a lot these days that "slick sleeves" are having a hard time leading because they're being undermined by combat vets, but that's a leadership problem. Forcing soldiers to take off their "extras" just makes their past efforts seem unappreciated; not exactly great for morale.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jun 18 at 2015 6:26 PM

2015-06-18T18:26:04-04:00

SFC Nikhil Kumra, this was done by a commander with poor experience molding soldiers.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 7:04 PM

2015-06-18T19:04:07-04:00

I like it. I've never cared for any of the flair anyway, and he's right; it's someone's character that matters, and not much else.

Response by CSM Tee Oden made Jun 18 at 2015 7:35 PM

2015-06-18T19:35:34-04:00

According to Army regulations, medals, badges, patches, and awards are worn to signify service and achievements. When we as Senior Leaders decide to make changes to a soldiers uniform based on our personal beliefs, the service has much bigger problems than a private in training might feel out of place because of lack of achievements that weren't earned. That Commanders needs to be evaluated themselves for lack of leadership skills and motivation.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2015 9:18 PM

2015-06-18T21:18:19-04:00

Regardless of whether or not its in the field, they should be able to wear it if they want. I wear mine not because I feel the need to show others I've deployed. I wear it because that's how I honor my brothers that I spent a year dodging bullets and rockets with. And for the guys we had that didn't make it home. So for me, the patch on my right arm has more of a personal meaning to it.

Response by SSgt Ron Kilpatrick made Jun 18 at 2015 11:38 PM

2015-06-18T23:38:28-04:00

These patches are something to be proud of, and a record to show fellow soldiers. The young troops look up to someone who has "done it all", and since when has a Colonel had the authority to go against the regs. Maybe the Colonel has had desk jobs all his career and has a problem with NCO's, who are all patched up.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Jun 19 at 2015 12:08 AM

2015-06-19T00:08:22-04:00

What sort of self loathing is this? Combat patches have always been an inspiration to those of us who haven't been to combat. They symbolize the veteran leader that has seen the elephant and knows what it takes to survive the experience. So now we want to take away the patch in the field? I know why the COL wants to do this. He wants to even the playing field because he has junior officers and NCOs with no combat experience trying to train the next generation of troops. Well you want that guy with the patch present to add validity to the tactics and techniques you are training. I can't believe a BDE CDR would take the PC feel good route.

I think this is BS but I am retired and have no skin in the game. What do you all think?

Response by SSG Steven Bison made Jun 19 at 2015 12:11 AM

2015-06-19T00:11:28-04:00

Wtf!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 1:58 AM

2015-06-19T01:58:22-04:00

how do you hide the "patch" shadow...?

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jun 19 at 2015 5:17 AM

2015-06-19T05:17:52-04:00

Its the Commanders discretion. Why are we sensationalizing this? An order was given, the mission was given.

Was it illegal - no!

Was is immoral - no!

Was it unethical - no!

So, why all the dang fuss? Move out and follow your orders! I got it, I had some intense deployments as well and lost many friends and comrades, I have a choice, follow orders or change professions.

Response by SFC Stephen King made Jun 19 at 2015 7:21 AM

2015-06-19T07:21:15-04:00

Teamwork is sometimes shown to be more conductive in a working environment by establishing a standard. The Commander is sets the standard. In doing this he must rely on his NCO's to enforce and adhere to the standard.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Jun 19 at 2015 8:39 AM

2015-06-19T08:39:38-04:00

Makes sense. Patches and doodads should be for dress uniforms not garrison operations.

Response by SGT Lawrence Corser made Jun 19 at 2015 1:45 PM

2015-06-19T13:45:41-04:00

he must be a no deployment leader who has hidden in training units to not go to war. or he is just feeling lesser of a solider when he sees all these studs with the patches and badges.

Response by Jordan Gaudard made Jun 19 at 2015 3:00 PM

2015-06-19T15:00:31-04:00

History has and always will be a big part of the military. I understand the complaint as to why you want to wear your first deployment patch, or the one that has the most meaning to you. I don't see the distraction side of the argument, or taking away from the training through experiences. However, if you are worried about your own or others experiences, then is that unit not wearing rank as well? I know as a SSG, that when I see a SFC, deployment patch or not he probably has a lot more knowledge and experiences than me. Is that going to take away from my training?

Response by SGT Greg Tibbles made Jun 19 at 2015 3:27 PM

2015-06-19T15:27:38-04:00

Sounds like the person who gave the order didn't like people noticing that he's never been to combat.

Response by A1C Nathan Fordahl made Jun 19 at 2015 4:21 PM

2015-06-19T16:21:23-04:00

It has pros and cons, personally I'd put more effort into kicking your ass if I knew you came from a special unit or had more in depth training than I did.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 19 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-06-19T17:58:53-04:00

It's up to the commander I don't see why it's such a big deal to people that aren't affected by it in in this brigade and it gives me no issue that I can't wear it my soldiers know what I have done and seen they have asked and I have shared it's about cohesion not accomplishments as a leader you train not take recognition if you can't understand that you need to reset your moral compass

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jun 19 at 2015 6:54 PM

2015-06-19T18:54:11-04:00

What a way to make newbies fit in. I think action says more than missing patches. However, I don't subscribe to taking badges soldiers have earned.

Response by SPC Christian Ziegler made Jun 19 at 2015 11:43 PM

2015-06-19T23:43:47-04:00

The Commander might order the Soldiers to remove all the stuff from there Uniforms but when your in a unit you know you has what Tab's who has what combat patch, the Commander stripping everyone down to make the new guys fit in all that does make it easy for the guys with some time in to give them a hard time. I mean who has not hazed new boot's before. The hell this Commander is bringing down on his new guys. I Can see where he meant for his plan to lead, but knowing and having talked to a bunch of young soldiers the new guys in 1 group and everyone else messing with them in the other group, oh forgot the SFC and up group when there around everything is great.

Just let the new guys get some schools in maybe a gunnery or 2 and all is well. Scouts Out

Response by SSG Leonard Johnson made Jun 20 at 2015 1:35 AM

2015-06-20T01:35:28-04:00

I can understand both sides of the argument. however, I must take the side of the Joe.....yes, we are supposed to work as a team. however, people earn those badges, and not all of us are Rangers and Special Forces.this is just another attempt to adapt to a collectivism or a combination type of society. just think about it... We got drinking age laws.....I guess we need to band NCO clubs, bowling alleys, or the clubs downtown just because some people are not old enough to drink. I kinda hope you see where I'm going at

Response by CW2 Stephen Pate made Jun 20 at 2015 12:37 PM

2015-06-20T12:37:10-04:00

I think the reasoning behind it may be a little wonky but understandable to a certain degree. Although, I'm a believer that we shouldn't have anything on our uniform except name rank and US Army on our combat uniorm because its our COMBAT UNIFORM. We have a fantastic fancy dress uniform to put all of our bling on. If anyone wants to know what a Soldier's qualifications are look at is/her ERB or maybe, oh I don't know, talk to them? Maybe I should have joined the marines? I don't think hey have any strife over their uniforms....

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Jun 20 at 2015 3:16 PM

2015-06-20T15:16:59-04:00

I do not like the decision, and would not to remove my combat patch (SSI-FWS).

No telling whether the CSM had input on this decision or not.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Jun 20 at 2015 5:58 PM

2015-06-20T17:58:45-04:00

What bothers me about this discussion is that the CSM's that have weighed in on this on either side are not fulfilling their duties as senior NCO's. Why do I say this - In reading the published story, it appears to me that certain facts are left out (I will cover this in just a moment); next, for those supporting the Commander's stated intent your supporting arguments lack weight and is not supported by regulations or normal SOP's; for those not supporting the Commander's intent, you are not stating the proper reasoning's behind your statements of opinion; and therefore also incorrect. For those individuals that are talking about field and garrison uniforms, most if not all of you do not know the difference between the two types of uniforms (there is a difference), by your own statements.

First: The missing element in the story and in the reasoning - Is the basic Class C uniform that this policy directed toward a Personal Clothing Bag item or is it an Organizational Clothing and Individual Equipment item?
Secondly: BE, KNOW, DO - Know is the key element; a number of individuals are either stating opinion or a portion of the factual regulatory criteria. Just because you cite a particular regulation, does not make your answer or statement correct, you need to step back and look at the whole picture. In this case I would recommend reviewing and studying the following three publications and any training safety publications that may apply: AR 670-1, DA Pam 670-1, and CTA 50-900 (and local/unit supplemental issue publications).
Third: Is this unit issued supplemental Class C uniforms as part of the TA-50 issue? Some units are, some are not. Ranger Battalions and SF Units do have Class C uniforms issued in this manner. At one point the 82nd had Class C uniforms issued in this manner and later they were not.

Bottom line - If the uniform proscribed for wear in the field is a Personal Clothing Bag item, the Commander is probably wrong; If the uniform proscribed for wear in the field is OCIE, then he is correct in having them not wear the items described in the article, however the Commander's reasoning is improper and definitely can lead to discontent in the lower enlisted ranks as exemplified here and in other social media.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 21 at 2015 5:18 PM

2015-06-21T17:18:50-04:00

Why is it wrong? Do we need to wear those to show we have experience? "Hey guys I deployed and I know everything, come seek guidance from me!!!" That rank on your chest should be an indicator of being a SME, not a f'n combat patch. I understand the reasons of wearing it for the fallen, but is a 2 week break going to kill anyone?

Response by SFC Glenn Cober made Jun 21 at 2015 5:50 PM

2015-06-21T17:50:46-04:00

Absolutely- some of these soldiers deployed 3-4-5 times and absolutely are deserving. Should we prevent soldiers from wearing special skill badges as well?

Response by MAJ Keira Brennan made Jun 21 at 2015 11:19 PM

2015-06-21T23:19:42-04:00

Sounds like something the Marine Corps would do.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 22 at 2015 8:33 AM

2015-06-22T08:33:06-04:00

I get it, plus they were in the field. Not sure why this is an issue.

Response by SFC William Farrell made Jul 2 at 2015 2:43 PM

2015-07-02T14:43:44-04:00

I think it is just plain stupid on the Brigade Commanders part. Is he listening? If I were still serving I would have to follow orders but I don't have to agree with them and I don't.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jul 9 at 2015 3:13 PM

2015-07-09T15:13:16-04:00

I wonder what his rationale was to do such a thing? One thing I'm glad to be rid of in military life is commanders whim. Which can also be a "someone convinced the commander this was a good idea" kinda thing, which is really worse.

Imagine what it would be like if commanders got to choose the whole uniform like in the old days with no restraint. Some troops would be wearing full battle rattle all the time, some would be dressed like Bozo the F*(&ing clown complete with big-assed clown shoes, I bet. And, pikes! Pikes are cool...I'm really not making fun of this particular commander, BTW, it's just that people in general will do weird stuff if there are no controls.
But, really, why do such a thing? There has to be a reason, and I'm curious what the probability of destroying morale could possibly be offset by enough to make this worthwhile?

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Mar 5 at 2016 6:47 PM

2016-03-05T18:47:08-05:00

This would be hilarious if it wasn't sad

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jul 18 at 2017 10:35 PM

2017-07-18T22:35:53-04:00

and no indication of RANK?

Response by PO3 Jake Lucid made Aug 31 at 2018 3:59 PM

2018-08-31T15:59:17-04:00

After the reading the article- this was done in a field training environment. I dont see a fuss. USCG- barest day to day uniforms around. Rank name uscg....no fancy badges or monikers. Yes you see wings on the airdales...and cuttermans pins for sea farers.....thats it. Command pins on officers when in command.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Sep 3 at 2018 3:24 AM

2018-09-03T03:24:08-04:00

ACU insignia such as skill badges and SSI-FWS are items which are part of the uniform. Yes, an individual can choose not to wear them but, on the other hand, I see it as beyond the commander's authority to order their removal. If the commander is worried about younger soldiers being intimidated by those with combat service - should he also be worried about them being intimidated by those with higher rank? In that case, he should have rank insignia removed as well - including his own.
Remember that we are in the United States Army and not the People's Liberation Army of China in the days of Chairman Mao where nobody wore any insignia.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 25 at 2018 8:03 PM

2018-11-25T20:03:52-05:00

Just to add some context here...and I’m o my speculating based on some observations I made when I was assigned to the 1SBCT around the time COl Hodne took over...
Around the time COL Hodne took command of the 1 SBCT, it had recently been reflagged as a Stryker brigade and as a result, a slew of experienced Soldiers started to arrive from many other recently reflagged/disbanded units. What started to happen was that you would have these little cliques that would form. A 2ID guy sees other 2ID guys and only hangs out with other 2ID transplants. As a result, you had junior Soldiers who were basically being ignored because the newly promoted E-5 TL was busy talking to the Soldiers in another platoon because they were 2ID. If you ask me, some of those Soldier did need reminding that hey your not in your old unit anymore. I mean even 4ID guys who deployed were feeling out of place when all of a sudden most of your platoon is made up of 2ID guys who recently deployed together.

The other part of this is, COL Hodne came from the 75th...those guys go to the field to train and thus wear sanitized uniforms. They understand that they are training in the field and trying to instill this mentality on regular Soldiers is not the worst idea I’ve heard.

Just my .02

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Jan 18 at 2019 5:25 PM

2019-01-18T17:25:44-05:00

One more instance of brass getting bogged down micromanaging trivia with a feel good solution to something that wasn't a problem to start with.

Response by CPO George Hall made Jan 20 at 2019 6:52 PM

2019-01-20T18:52:32-05:00

No info

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 30 at 2019 12:49 PM

2019-06-30T12:49:59-04:00

BS, you earn those patches you wear them. Regardless of what some crazed CDR says, it’s a shame the CDR tries to take away the the honors and privileges a Soldier has earned.