Army culture and alcohol, OSB and DUI

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 03:21:20 -0400

The recent officer separation boards seem to have overwhelmingly separated officers with bad paper such as DUIs. The message is pretty clear, and has been since I've been affiliated with the Army: getting a DUI is bad. The competing message regarding alcohol, at least as long as I've been in the Army, is that "Alcohol is great!" I've served with lots and lots of officers and soldiers that either were alcoholics, binge drinkers, or alcohol abusers (full disclosure, so as not to be preachy: perhaps like most of us, I definitely drank like a binge drinker when I was younger.)

The issue I'd like to discuss is the continuation of the glorification of alcohol in the Army, where its perfectly acceptable for, ne, expected of, Army personnel to drink, and drink alot (think of your hail-and-fairwells, your unit holiday parties, your unit formal balls, the well-stocked Class VI and alcohol section at every commissary on every Army base), thereby creating a culture of acceptance of alcohol abuse; but at the same time a DUI/DWI is a fire-able offense.

I don't mind that a DUI/DWI is a fire-able offense; getting one suggests a lack of judgement, the lack of self-control, acceptance of the endangerment of others; oh, and it is against the law, to boot. Getting a DUI/DWI should probably result in negative action: Article 15, letter of reprimand, civilian criminal charges, etc, etc.

What I do mind is that driving under the influence / driving while intoxicated is perfectly acceptable in the Army, just as long as one doesn't get arrested, charged, and convicted of the offense.

Thoughts?

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 4:25 AM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 04:25:42 -0400

MAJ Jager. I hesitate to respond. But, it seems to me the tradition is perfectly acceptable to drink, even drink to excess. But, it is totally unacceptable to drive and/or show up for duty while still intoxicated. The only thing this has to do with getting caught is the formal documentation of your misconduct. I would no more allow a nurse, doctor, or surgeon to practice drunk than to drive drunk. All that said, if we did not drink after a long hard day in combat surgery under the primitive conditions of the past, we probably would not keep our sanity. Warmest Regards, Sandy

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Aug 9 at 2014 5:56 AM

SSG Pete Fleming — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 05:56:01 -0400

Major Jager, sir, I agree with you completely. There is a joke that is aren't a drinker the military will make you one. With very few exceptions I bet every current and/or former Marine, Sailor, Airman, Soldier have alcohol related stories. Some of out grow it, some will not.

But then this creates new question... do we blame the Military for alcohol abuse and creating alcoholics like we blame the tobacco companies for cancer? (No I am not smoker but I see a correlation between the two.) Do we blame the leadership who allow, encourage, or turn a bind eye? Or do we take personal responsibility for our own actions? Something no one does this day and age...

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 3:20 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 15:20:36 -0400

It's ok to dring as long as it doesn't effect your work, and no, you can't drive drunk. I don't see a culture that requires one to drink. I have plenty of officers who don't drink at all. Now, there is a lot of drinking going on by the Troopers in the Squadron, but they are still expected to live up to the standards established in the UCMJ...drunk or not. And...oh, by the way, the average age of the unit is 22-24. Some don't drink...my driver for instance...good on 'em. No one screws with them because of it and they've never felt compelled to drink. There used to be a much stronger drinking culture in the Army. You haven't even come close to seeing a drinking culture. If you want to see what the US Army was like 20 years ago, spend some time with the Australian Army. THEY have a culture of drinking...and they don't have a problem with it. It's like that old joke, Alcoholics go to meetings...we're not alcoholics...we're drunks...drunks go to parties. The problem comes in blaming alcohol for personal problems. "The alcohol made him do it," type BS. No dice here. You live your life, you make your own decisions, and if you cross the line, we will gut you and hang you from the flagpole and the gore that spills from your body will grease this unit's skids toward success. There used to be a drinking culture here, but we've killed it. What remains is a whimper of it's old self...and if you cross into the dark-side, gut...grease...skid...success. Rinse and repeat.

Response by LTC Yinon Weiss made Aug 9 at 2014 4:20 PM

LTC Yinon Weiss — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 16:20:29 -0400

I agree that there are many heavy drinkers in the Army. However, I disagree that there is a culture which says that drinking while driving is OK, as long as you don't get caught. I have never witnessed a "wink wink" OK for somebody to drink and drive, implying "hey, don't get caught." More often, it's "don't do anything stupid like that! It will end your career."

I definitely agree that there are many avenues to drink in the Army, including some of the examples you brought forward. I have just NEVER observed a culture where drunk driving is OK as long as you don't get caught.

From my personal experience, and I know we all have different experiences, those who choose not to drink are generally not compelled to drink by others. At least certainly not on the officer side.

Response by 1SG Steven Stankovich made Aug 9 at 2014 5:15 PM

1SG Steven Stankovich — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 17:15:51 -0400

Sir, we as an Army have curbed the, as you put it, culture of drinking over the past decade. What I mean by that is there are a lot of checks in place before a unit can have alcohol at a unit function; requests, risk assessments, etc. Now that is not to say that it does not exist, because drinking is still an acceptable form of camaraderie: Beer Calls, Dining Ins, Grog Ceremonies, etc. It is a Leader...as much as an individual...responsibility to do the right thing. Assign a DD. Have a plan. Execute that plan.

I am currently working in NATO right now. Every single one of their events involves alcohol. There are always beer tents, liquor tasting from home countries, etc. The amount of DUIs or alcohol related incidents here on SHAPE is almost non-existent. People are doing the right things. I think that is a testament to how the other Nations regard alcohol consumption and responsibility. Maybe we need to take some notes.

There is no excuse to drink and drive. I had an experience way, way back in the day where I drank and got behind the wheel. I put my truck in a ditch, didn't hurt anyone or anything, thank goodness, except my truck, and paid a $500 dollar fine. That was my eye-opening experience and since then, if I even have one beer, my wife or someone else drives. There wasn't a "zero tolerance" mentality back then. If I would do something like that today, instead of twenty years ago, I would be on my way out of our Army.

BLUF is that both Leaders and Individuals are accountable with regards to alcohol consumption. Do the right thing.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 7:15 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 19:15:43 -0400

MAJ Jeff Jager, I have plenty of thoughts, don't have time to type them now, but for now, I'll just say: Preach! (a compliment)

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2014 11:56 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 09 Aug 2014 23:56:45 -0400

I've spent the past two years in Australia, and to be clear, our "culture" of drinking does not compare to their culture of drinking. Trust me when I say that their functions at the Officer's Mess put our hail and farewells or balls to shame. They drink and have fun...and don't go get DUIs after. Officers who live off stay in the mess or with a friend on base. For officers who live on but not at the mess, transportation is provided to the housing area if necessary...or they walk!

Now on your side of it, I had a friend who was a 1LT(P) in Korea attending a military ball on base who got a DUI after. He lost his 'P' status, didn't get picked up again by the subsequent board, and was out of the Army shortly thereafter. It felt almost hypocritical to us at the time, but in the end, it was his choice to drive...that behavior certainly wasn't encouraged.

Response by MSG Mitch Dowler made Aug 10 at 2014 5:06 PM

MSG Mitch Dowler — Sun, 10 Aug 2014 17:06:57 -0400

Selling alcohol at the Class VI, PX, or Commissary does not create a culture accepting of alcohol abuse any more than having a Burger King and Popeyes Chicken creates a culture of obesity. Some people have a weakness for alcohol and self control issues and it just isn't the Army it is society in general. The Army is a stressful work environment. Some of us go hunting, fishing, shooting, hiking, or some other activity of choice to burn off stress. Some use alcohol for that purpose while others use it when socializing once in a while or with meals at home.

Any number of life's pleasures can substitute for alcohol. I disagree that DUI is acceptable as long as you don't get caught. It sounds like saying having an affair is ok if you don't get caught, sometime you will.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 11 at 2014 10:16 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 10:16:19 -0400

Jeff, you are right on the mark. Many leaders are okay and often encourage/promote drinking to the excess, as long as you "don't get caught". We depend on our ability to make the right decision in the most difficult situations when deployed. But socially, don't we actually encourage bad decisions routinely by over-emphasizing the importance of alcohol as it relates to our history? It was always a balance to ensure the unit in which I served had a culture that allowed choice, but didn't put overt or inadvertent pressure on the Soldiers/leaders to drink.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Aug 11 at 2014 10:51 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:51:09 -0400

The problem isn't the idea that it's okay to enjoy a drink and socialize with your peers. The problem is that the idea of drinking has evolved into how fast can we get utterly smashed. There is no sense of responsibility or consequence.

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Aug 11 at 2014 10:54 PM

CW2 Joseph Evans — Mon, 11 Aug 2014 22:54:27 -0400

I think part of the problem with drinking in the military stems from the culture that has not forced many people to "grow up". Privates and Lieutenants on their first assignment, any time you get a peer group together (BNCOC, ANCOC, Staff Course, etc).

There is also the issue that responsible drinking is frowned on but the binge drinking is excused. A beer or glass of wine with lunch is a no no, but 10 shots from the grog bowl at the "dining in" is an acceptable challenge... We've reached the point regarding alcohol fear that the ads are warning us how dangerous we are driving at .01... and we got kids in the force that don't know how to have "just one".

SPCs, SGTs and SSGs are passing on the technique of a beer in hand keeps you off the "hey you" details...

Still, I think the problem has less to do with military culture than the culture we draw our recruits from.

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made Aug 17 at 2014 3:04 AM

MAJ Raúl Rovira — Sun, 17 Aug 2014 03:04:17 -0400

When I was a 2LT I did snow-birding at Ft Knox prior to the basic course. I remeber the Troop Commander giving his weekend safety brief and the "don't drink and drive" line.

After formation the CO asked me and another LT in the Troop to go with him to Luisville for a night out which we agreed. So the CO, his CPT buddy, myself and the other LT headed out (5 passengers with the COs wife). Next thing I know there are beers poping and the CPTs are handing out beers to the LTs. And yes, my CO was the one drinking and driving. It was a very awkward situation.

It was the only time I witnessed this. But I am sure it is a habit for him.

With 3 glorious months of service under my belt I did not know how to handle the CO or how to deal with the situation. But I chouse not to ride with the CO anymore "sorry sir I have other plans with the LTs, but thank you."

The danger of confronting a leader of higher rank is the risk of retaliation. You really have to have your ducks in a row (witness, evidence...). Two 2LTs against 2 CPTs was not going to work. Add the COs wife on their side, I don't think so.

I'm sure we can wargame this and play Monday morning quarterback on this scenario. This was over 16 years ago.

The other LT tried to get into my car one time with an open beer. I asked him to drink it or toss it. He did. Then we went down town.

Drinking and driving, from my foxhole, does not apear to be an Army culture thing. But it apears to be part of individual culture like my former CO. Unacceptable, regardless.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 22 at 2018 1:16 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Jul 2018 13:16:01 -0400

From my experience as a dependent of my father (23 years in the Active Army 76-99) who lived on or near a number of active duty installations and now I have been in nearly 10 years (both active and reserve), the mindset from most Commands has been "Don't get caught" - even today. I get it...some Soldiers (regardless of rank) are more responsible than others. I have seen a CPT drink to excess at a bar (his bar tab without tax/tip was at least $100) and then get behind the wheel without incident. I also have seen a PFC who shared a 24 pack with friends and then accidentally sideswipe a car on his 5 minute drive home.

Who was attempting the riskier activity? The CPT, by far. Who got caught and punished? The PFC.

My point is this...the risky behavior is what needs to be addressed - not the getting caught. As a general rule, people who get away with risky behavior tend to continue with it as well as raise the level of risk.

The military likes to talk about integrity, but it is pointless when commanders have the "Don't get caught" mentality.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2019 12:58 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Jul 2019 00:58:19 -0400

The issue always comes back to personal responsibility, a term in my opinion that 1/2 our population is being taught doesn't matter. Blame everything and everyone but ones own actions.
In my 29 year career I never saw people Circle the wagons to protect a drunk.