Army Strong, or Army Wrong?

2016-02-16T14:14:12-05:00

Today, I may make some people mad. But what I want to address is vitally important.

I have been a drill instructor in a prison boot camp (an adult penitentiary down South) for over six years now. We train and rehabilitate non-violent offenders using a 105-day military style boot camp. Before that, I served for 21 years in the regular Army and worked a gig for Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) anti-terrorism training organization for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS).

During my military career, I served two tours in South Korea (one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984), one tour in Germany, two Middle East combat tours, and a total of five and half years as a paratrooper and jumpmaster. I say all this not to spout out my resume, but so that I can assure you that I am absolutely qualified to make the statements I am about to make.

In the last six and a half years since I took on this job, I have been studying to become a drill instructor. Where did I go for my research? The Marine Corps.

I have always been fascinated by the Marines. In fact, I have served alongside them on several occasions. I began reading articles, watching hours and hours of video, and speaking with many Marines (drill instructors and non-drill instructors alike).

Over time, I have become a bit of a self-proclaimed, self-educated expert on Marine training: what they do, how they do it, why they do it, when they do it, etc. In the process of studying their training, I have come to several conclusions. I have also come to several conclusions about the Army, some not so good – some are downright scary.

Here are the things I have learned through my extensive research:

1. The Army runs a softer, “human dignity based” reception and receiving when the recruits arrive. The reception is so weak that it sets a very bad tone for the remainder of not just their training, but for their whole career in the Army. Recruits show up to a firm welcome by the drill sergeants and staff, but it’s not the controlled mayhem of a Marine Corps Recruit Depot (MCRD). In fact, it seems to comfort and reassure soldiers as if to say “calm down and relax, it’s going to be all right.” Now that is all right if that is a message from your mother, but it’s not okay when we are trying to build the next generations of Spartans.

Marine receiving, on the other hand, is a “shock theater” from the minute they get off the bus through their graduation. The mayhem starts when their feet hit the “deck” and it never ever lets up. The discipline and stress is through the roof! The Army reception staff occasionally get perplexed as if to say “silly Private, get over here...shucks, what are you doing?”

In an MCRD, the recruit would be screamed at: ”GET OVER HERE! TOO SLOW, GO BACK! GET OVER HERE! STOP EYEBALLING ME! GET YOUR HEELS TOGETHER! Hey there was something you were supposed to say when told to do something, WHAT WAS IT? RESPOND!…AYE AYE SIR! RESPOND!”

See the difference? Here’s what I always say: weak pick up, weak recruits, strong pick up, strong recruits. That means if you “go in punching,” so to speak, the recruits know you mean business, you are not playing, and you are tougher than they are. You want them to be nearly peeing their pants from fear and stress.

The Army feels we need to treat people with dignity and respect and that people will shut down if screamed at too much. If that were true, the Marines have been doing it wrong since about 1952. That’s around the time that the Smokey bear hat and the structured chaos of boot camp kicked into gear. Don’t get me wrong: the Marines always wrote the book on discipline, but during the 1950’s the MCRDs really stepped up their game.

2. The tone the Army sets in basic training is wrong. The Army trains; the Marines indoctrinate. Do you see the difference? The Marines initiate the recruit into a culture, the Army trains them in tasks. Sure, the Army has core values that are really good. The values make sense and they are motivating, but the Marines ingrain it deeper into a youngster’s soul.

While the Army does change the person’s life, it does not instill the intrinsic values in the same way that the Marines do. Unless you are in an elite Army unit like Infantry, Airborne, Rangers, Special Forces, or Delta, you just don’t have the warrior ethos that the Army claims it builds. If you are a motivated gung-ho individual and you are not in an elite unit, the Army (or at least fellow soldiers) treat you like an oddball. How do I know this? I have spent a total of about 30 years around it, and I have been in Airborne, Infantry, and attached to Special Ops units, as well as regular units. In the Marines, gung-ho motivation is business as usual. You stand out if you aren’t highly motivated.

3. The Marines base their training on indoctrinating the individual into the core values of the Marines. Their training relies heavily on close order drill. They believe that drill instills a sense of teamwork and attention to detail that no other activity can. Drill teaches an individual that there are immediate consequences for an individual’s actions on their group. In other words, when one guy messes up a movement, it doesn’t go unnoticed. That soldier makes his squad look bad, that squad affects the platoon, and so on. Have you ever seen one guy in a formation either doing something late or doing the wrong movement? It sticks out like dog balls!

Now take this concept - that my actions affect the group as a whole - and apply it to war. If I move and am seen by the enemy, I may not just get myself killed, but my whole squad, platoon, company, etc. When you train with that kind of attention to detail, you are disciplined.

The Army conducts impeccable training in close order drill. In fact, the largest source of failure for students at the drill sergeant school is testing of the drill modules. So why does the Army not march as well as the Marines and why is marching not as high a priority in the Army?

4. The Army introduces combat skills earlier than the Marines do. The Army trains more combat tasks in its basic training that the Marines. Now while this may seem like a good idea, it’s really not. Teaching combat tasks before a person is fully indoctrinated in the love of corps and country is a very bad idea. It's like letting a kid who just learned how to drive enter a NASCAR race. The kid may have great skills, coordination, and reflexes, but the reality is that they have only been driving less than a year.

The Marines realize that indoctrination in the love of God, Country, and Corps has priority over learning “nuts and bolts” training. In fact, if a person is properly indoctrinated, they can be taught the other skills too, ultimately mastering them with more zeal than a person who had not been indoctrinated.

Keeping this in mind, the Marines focus on just a few things in boot camp but they drive those few things home. Drill, core values, marksmanship, fighting spirit, physical fitness, and teamwork are really all you learn in Marine Boot Camp. If a recruit masters these, the rest is strictly academic. They learn the more advanced combat skills in a course called Marine Corps Combat Training (MCT).

The Army on the other hand doesn’t get as in-depth with marksmanship, although they do get proficient at shooting, but then focus on assaulting objectives, fire and maneuver, and other combat tasks Marines don’t see until much later. The Army has removed bayonet fighting from basic training based on the rationale that you are not issued a bayonet downrange (slang term for deployed combat area) and no one uses bayonets in combat anymore.

The Marines approach this concept differently. The Marines believe that bayonet drills and bayonet sparring (pugil stick fighting) instill a killer instinct that can be obtained no other way. The Marines then integrate their bayonet fighting into their own indigenous martial art called MCMAP (Marine Corps Martial Arts Program). This fighting system employs the concept of “one mind, any weapon.” A motivated Marine can pick up a shovel and kill the bad guys like Sampson swinging a donkey’s jawbone. Why? Because he is indoctrinated in the art and mentality of a warrior. The Army trains warfare - make no mistake - but it takes the front seat over indoctrination.

5. Everything in Marine Boot Camp is done with speed, intensity, and volume. In Army basic you are required to move very fast, but the tone is different. The Marines “count down” every task in boot camp. That means they say “go” or “ready move” and then you have an allotted amount of time to accomplish the task. If you don’t finish in time, you do it again, and again, and again. I saw more count downs in Airborne School than Army basic training.

I think the reason we don’t do this in the Army as much as the Marines do is because of time constraints. We have much bigger platoons and companies in Army basic training and fewer drill sergeants (or DI if you prefer) than the Marines do. You have somewhere to be and you have more skills to learn and there isn’t enough time to keep putting pants on in less than 30 seconds. But look at it this way: the Marines take a longer period of time (13 weeks in the Marines versus the Army’s 9-10 weeks) to train fewer skills and indoctrinate the mind, body, and soul of the recruit.

This might also explain why we do not spend as much time on drill in Army Basic Training. There are lots of skills to be taught and very little time to do so. Every Army unit I have ever served with has been weak in drill. Sure, we can march from point A to point B, but anything beyond that and we need to rehearse. Why? Because in the Army we do not emphasize drill like we ought to. Drill needs to be on the training schedule like PT or any other task. But we do it in basic training and then we let it go.

6. The Marines use a “rebirth system,” so to speak. Marines are not called Marines verbally or in any other way until they have “earned the title.” The Army calls their recruits “soldiers” from day one.

The Marines understand that you are not a full-fledged Marine until you have earned the insignia of the Eagle, Globe, and Anchor (the EGA as Marines call it). This is not done until the very last week in which recruits participate in an event called The Crucible. This is a 56 hour “gut check.” Recruits undergo a hell week, a series of combat team tasks over that 56 hour period on very little food and sleep.

These tasks are not complex. We are not talking about a huge military strategy here. We are talking about moving ammo cans over an obstacle course, evacuating a casualty under fire through the sucking mud, and getting a squad over a distance with obstacles and difficult terrain.

The crucible awards a “badge” or “award”… the EGA. There is a “becoming” associated with graduating Marine Boot Camp. It’s like a caterpillar emerging from a cocoon as a butterfly or in this case, emerging as an elite warrior. This attitude follows the Marine for the rest of his or her life. It is a significant and emotional event that is never ever forgotten. In order to get that similar effect in the Army, you would have to go to Airborne or even Ranger school.

We must find a way to raise the bar in the Army. We must find a way to make the Army an elite concept. It must become more than a catchy slogan “Army Strong” and a way to make money for college. We must return to the Spartan roots that made us great. Because right now? We are not great.

Response by CAPT Kevin B. made Feb 16 at 2016 2:26 PM

2016-02-16T14:26:30-05:00

Interesting read. I'm much more familiar with the Marine side. What the two systems do is create a unique culture. Question that is begged is it optimal? I'd suspect the leadership on both sides think so. Or better yet, optimal given what is given to them as raw material. Marines need a few, the Army many, hence have to tap the fat part of the bell curve more. It appears they have "softened" a bit to reduce the early bail out rate. Who knows.

That said, I remember being a "Beast" and couldn't be called Cadet until the end of summer.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 2:45 PM

2016-02-16T14:45:28-05:00

Excellent post. Some folks think Marine Corps Boot Camp is brain washing, but that is not correct. It is training to give you the best chance to survive and succeed whatever the mission. These lessons have a lasting effect, "Once a Marine, Always a Marine." Semper Fi!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 3:11 PM

2016-02-16T15:11:31-05:00

Apparently you never have been to FT Benning at Infantry OSUT.

Response by Capt Jeff S. made Feb 16 at 2016 3:14 PM

2016-02-16T15:14:58-05:00

Shouldn't this discussion be elsewhere? Honestly what does it have to do with the Marines?!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 3:19 PM

2016-02-16T15:19:06-05:00

This is the best FICTION that I have read in some time! Are you kidding me? I'm not sure what Army you were in, but it wasn't the same Army I was in.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Feb 16 at 2016 3:34 PM

2016-02-16T15:34:58-05:00

Thanks for your thoughts. The Army tends focus on the big Army and the Marines drill down to the individual.

Response by Cpl Mark McMiller made Feb 16 at 2016 3:35 PM

2016-02-16T15:35:04-05:00

I'd say that sums it up pretty well.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 3:52 PM

2016-02-16T15:52:41-05:00

Great read...great points...no additional commentary required. Just going to stand here clapping and basking in the "true" doled out here.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Feb 16 at 2016 3:56 PM

2016-02-16T15:56:21-05:00

I suppose it depends on the MOS a soldier signed up for, yes we are all infantry first but let's be honest, I chose to drive trucks for a living over being an infantry man. I say that to say this, I am quite sure those in the Army that love or want an elite challenge are in the respected MOS to be able to do so i.e Infantry, Rangers ,Special Forces etc. etc.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 4:04 PM

2016-02-16T16:04:51-05:00

You got me with "Today, I make some people mad". I read the next paragraph and tapped out.

Response by SSgt Christopher Brose made Feb 16 at 2016 4:24 PM

2016-02-16T16:24:25-05:00

I can't speak to all of it, but having been through both Army basic training and Marine Corps boot camp, I can say that most of it is valid.

Response by Capt Lance Gallardo made Feb 16 at 2016 4:35 PM

2016-02-16T16:35:22-05:00

Freaking awesome analysis S/Sgt Watson. You have said so comprehensively what I have been trying to say here on RP with some of my posts lamenting why the Army does not try to make Army Basic training more like Marine Corps Boot Camp. The Army trains you to be a soldier at Basic training, while the Marine Corps makes Marines at Boot Camp. It is also about symbology, and mysticism as you pointed out with the EGA Ceremony following the Crucible and The Marines have been shameless in shoplifting the Knighting Ceremony in some of their Recruiting Ads. Napolean said that men would fight better and even die these for these little colored ribbons (combat awards and decorations and other symbols of Gallantry in combat). It is kind of scary when you think about it, but only the Waffen SS and the SS Ceremonies in the last 70 years cloaked themselves in the symbology and mysticism, like the Marine Corps does, and despite their Evilness, the Waffen SS were generally considered the among the best and most elite ground infantry, with high morale and fighting spirit in ground combat. The Marines fight like Elite units because they believe they are an Elite Fighting force, and train harder and hold themselves to a higher self-imposed standard, because they have a chip on their shoulder and all Marines know that the day the Marines can no longer deliver on what they promise they can do for the American People, is the day the Marine Corps will be disbanded.

When we were training very seriously for combat in Gulf War I at The Basic School, and lawyers and pilot wannabes were having their contracts for their MOSes voided and they were being sent to combat MOS Schools (IOC., Tank School, and Arty School, and CSS) we got a Visit from some Frozen Chosin Marine Corps 1st Division Vets, who told us that as scared as they were of dying or being horribly wounded in the "fighting retreat to the coast and evacuation" what else was on their minds??? They did not want to go down in the History Books as the FIRST and ONLY Marine Corps Division to surrender en mass to surrender to an enemy force. Let that sink in for a moment.

That was the same fighting spirit that the 101st Airborne Acting CG McAuliffe, expressed in his Reply Note and one line answer to the Krauts when they asked him to surrender his division at Bastogne - NUTS!
Or as BG Chesty Puller said in a similar situation:
We're surrounded.
That simplifies our problem of getting to these people and killing them.
Now we can fire in any direction,
those bastards won't get away this time!
And Major General Oliver Smith, CG, First Marine Division and all UN Forces at The Frozen Chosin Resevoir Battle of the Korean War:

Retreat, hell!
We're attacking in a different direction!

-When the Communist Chinese threw 270,000 troops into the Korean War, numerous U.N. divisions were overrun. Eight Chinese divisions engaged the 1st Marine Division. In the face of "General Winter" and overwhelming numerical superiority, the division concentrated promptly, rescued and evacuated surviving remnants of adjacent, less ready Army formations, and commenced one of the greatest marches of American history, from Chosin Reservoir to the sea.

Sixteen days later, having brought down its dead, saved its equipment, and rescued three Army battalions, the 1st Marine Division - supported by the 1st Marine Wing - reached the sea with high morale and in fighting order. The division had shattered the Chinese Communist Forces 9th Army Group, killed at least 25,000 Chinese, and wounded more than 12,500.

Every Marine reads about, hears about, and ingests these Living History examples of what Marines before them have done and are capable of doing. The Battle of Bealleu Wood in WWI where the Marines won their nickname of Devil Dog (Teufel Hunden in German), Guadalcanal, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, The Frozen Chosin Reservoir battle in Korea, The Marines in Vietnam at Hue City or their defense in the Battle of Khe Sanh, Gulf War I, the Invasion of Iraq in 2003, the battle for Falluja in 2004, and their many engagements in Afghanistan during Operation Enduring Freedom.

Every Marine understands that they have inherited the success of the Marines who have come before them, and they are instilled with the idea that it would be better to be dead than let the Marines who have come before them down. It is in many ways just like that line from the movie a Few Good Men, Marines ARE fanatical about being Marines. They are also fanatical about improving the Marine Corps in any way, small or large, and they learn about the innovators and Mavericks who have served in the Marine Corps, and there is an active intellectual debate and discussion, not just in the Professional Journal, The Marine Corps Gazette, but at squad, platoon and company levels, and at the professional Development Schools for Marine Officers from Amphibious War College to Command and Staff College and the Naval War College about what changes need to be made to keep the Marine Corps strong and "The Best." This starts with the expensive commitment to send all Marine Officers through The Basic School's Basic Officer Course, Warrant and regular/reserve Commissioned Officers all have to graduate from TBS to go to flight school, or in my case, Naval Justice School or whatever their follow on MOS school is.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir

Battle of Chosin Reservoir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Battle of Chosin Reservoir, also known as the Chosin Reservoir Campaign or the Changjin Lake Campaign (Korean: 장진호 전투(長津湖戰鬪); Chinese: 长津湖战役; pinyin: Cháng Jīn Hú Zhànyì),[c] was a decisive battle in the Korean War. "Chosin" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean name, "Changjin". The UN forces relied on Japanese language maps dating from their occupation of Korea which had only ended five years earlier at the conclusion of World War...

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Feb 16 at 2016 4:48 PM

2016-02-16T16:48:03-05:00

Interesting read indeed. Why did you join the Army? You clearly have a love affair with the Marines...I am not saying it is a bad thing, but you wrote this big article (as a U.S. Soldier) talking about how the Marines are better. Maybe this is part of the reason you think that we are "Army wrong". I was stationed on MCB, and I promise that there are plenty of 'ate up' Marines as well. Personally, I think that you are being part of the problem and not the solution to your own posting.

Response by PFC Jim Linton made Feb 16 at 2016 5:01 PM

2016-02-16T17:01:13-05:00

I took basic training in 1987 and I remember going through bayonet training. I know basic training wasn't as tuff from earlier years my dad was a drill instructor he is a veteran of the Korean conflict and Vietnam and he told me stories on how the basic training has eased up on breaking the recruits down and building them back up. I do remember the duffle bag drag after that cattle car came to a dead stop and all hell broke loose I'm sure it has eased up since the almost 30 years that I went through it and after AIT I was assigned to the 7th infantry division and their motto was voice of the bayonet

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Feb 16 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-02-16T17:28:41-05:00

Guys I've been in several joint units and Marine discipline is always high. Instead of getting butt hurt, we need to ask ourselves why there is only high discipline and motivation in Infantry, airborne, Ranger and other combat units? Why doesn't the garden variety soldier have that spartan spirit?

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Feb 16 at 2016 5:42 PM

2016-02-16T17:42:04-05:00

ok I'm getting pummelled, but if you read the points you'll see what I was saying. This is corrective action....nothing more. Watch this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yNn9H1LR2Tw

US Marine Corps Drill Instructor vs US Army Drill Sergeant

ARMY

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 5:52 PM

2016-02-16T17:52:22-05:00

It comes down to how big you want the service to be. For an Army that is nearly 3 times as large as the Corps, it needs to allow in a bigger slice of the American population. Going by the cross section of society these days with a majority of Americans grotesquely obese, there isn't a big pool to choose from in the first place.

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Feb 16 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-02-16T18:49:53-05:00

SSG Lon Watson - I'd give you two "thumbs up" on this one --First, because it's mostly about Marines; Second, because you've touched on some fundamental differences.

Couple of thoughts:
1.) The Corps' lack of size is a HUGE advantage. Training to be very focused to the numbers in the training cycle. This lack of size also allows for continued "warrior" training (like MCT & annual weapons' qualification).
2.) Indoctrination - I can only defer to the reflections of Rudyard Kipling: "Body and Spirit I surrendered whole to harsh instructors... and received a soul." Yep, earning that title and the EGA is special --because we make so.

In rating your post, I offer the seldom seen "Bullseye Award." Poignant.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Feb 16 at 2016 6:51 PM

2016-02-16T18:51:26-05:00

I agree with you when I came in the army back in the 70's it was like that had a drill in my face till I graduate and I feel the army needs to go back to that way again you need to brake them down and bring them back up make them a soldier

Response by MAJ Thomas Person made Feb 16 at 2016 7:10 PM

2016-02-16T19:10:07-05:00

Nice read. If you want to get a better idea prior to "tapping out"; read T.R. Fehrenbach's "This Kind of War". One will readily see the issue with regards to a 'softer" Army. The Army's proclivity for allowing itself to be a test bed for social engineering is well documented. The military in general I suspect is being poisoned with a lack of killer instinct. I remember seeing 2 heavily armed boats being taken without a fight. Would a Ranger Regimental or 82nd Airborne PIR element or a Marine element allow itself to be rolled up without some sort resistance? Hummm?

Response by Sgt Nick Marshall made Feb 16 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-02-16T20:49:31-05:00

No disrespect to the army, but I did not enjoy working with them, they tended to be slovenly and lazy. Working with the Royal Marines was a pleasure, very professional and incredibly fit.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2016 9:27 PM

2016-02-16T21:27:59-05:00

I like the essay length comparison on us and the Marine Corp. I like your call to action, we can always be harder and examine our culture for its weak spots. I would provide this to counter balance:
188,800 - Marine Corp Strength
490,000 - Army End Strength
348,000 - Army Guard Strength
198,000 - Army Reserve Strength
+/- a few thousand depending on what year you are talking but the Total Army is close to a million people. Not sure your going to find that many people that want to be birthed in a 56 hour hell week.

A Guardsman is made in 9 weeks of basic training and given 4 months of prep and a mob site refresher the citizen Soldier is ready to deploy. Guard units do well enough that the new Chief of Staff of the Army says in public that America will never go to war without the Guard again.

I'd also say that what you want costs some money. 546,000 Reserve Component soldiers...who all go to the same Army Basic training... costs some cash. Thats transparent to the Active Duty Soldier who is getting paid a salary 24/7 but we get to paying extra for all of those RC soldiers to be on orders- a 9 week basic training is just fine. An additional 4 weeks of training for ~50,000 RC troops going to basic every year would be about a $75 Million dollar price tag in base salary alone ($1566 for an E-1 per month).

I would propose that our roots are more good ol' boy farmer willing to pick up a gun than Spartan. The Army is a wide cross section of the population it defends. The Marine Corp is a special subset of people willing to be indoctrinated into that culture.

P.S. Marines are cool and i like what you write here despite my counter statements above.

Response by CSM William Payne made Feb 16 at 2016 11:00 PM

2016-02-16T23:00:54-05:00

There is no right or wrong. The Army and Marine Corps are two different services with two different missions. The Army as a much larger force and has to deal with an economy of scales, this is one of the reasons the Army had to go with integrated (combined men and women) training in the early eighties.

The Marines are a much smaller force with an even smaller female population and therefore can afford to be more selective in its recruitment and intense in its training. Until now they have managed to keep the core training in boot camp sex segregated, but by order of the SecDef, that will be coming to an end.

Each of the services conducts its "basic" training to meet the needs of that service. The heavy emphasis on weapons training and combat training by the Marines and the combat MOS of the Army are not as critical to the rank and file Navy and Air Force personnel.

And not all Army Basic is the same. Infantry OSUT training at Fort Benning is much edgier than the BCT training at Jackson, Leonard Wood or Sill.

Like apples and oranges neither is wrong, just different.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-02-17T11:40:23-05:00

The Army experiences a lot more scrutiny then other branches due to the Army being larger then almost all branches combined. So with issues like suicide, sexual harassment, and equal opportunity at an all time high the Army has had to conform to a more relaxed standards to get the perception that they are combating the problem. I totally agree BCT is a cake walk these days but when you are training thousands of Soldiers instead of hundreds of Marines there are more opportunities for scrutiny. I wish we could go back to the days of smoke sessions and intense remedial training but for now our hands are tied and we have to adapt to develop the best Soldiers we can with the resources we have.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 11:55 AM

2016-02-17T11:55:34-05:00

186k is a bit bigger than "a few Battalions". And it was not said that the Army does not hold their own just that maybe things can be tightened down a bit.

Response by Sgt Tom Cunnally made Feb 17 at 2016 12:15 PM

2016-02-17T12:15:52-05:00

I have been out of the military too many years to add to this discussion about the Army. But back in the '50s & 60s we Marines did not have a very high opinion of the National Guard. However a few years ago I was a volunteer fitness trainer working with the Wounded Warriors Program for the VA . All of the guys were in the National Guard and we had them try a new program that included a Green Diet, Cardio Exercise and Spirituality to combat PTSD, and Chronic Depression. I really had a lot of respect for these guys who had served multiple tours in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Some had serious issues. And they all thought the VA recommended Green Diet was cruel and unusual punishment. I think they enjoyed having a Trainer who was much older than they were and we built a pretty good repoire .. They nicknamed me "The Ole Sarge" and I think this program did help but I was not privy to their quesionaires or physical exams. This program was designed by Stanford Medical University and used by the VA in Palo Alto and in Minneapolis... The results have been favorable because the VA wants to get some PTSD patients off medications. And this program was a substitute because some medications had advers side effects including suicide or mixing the meds with alcohol...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 12:32 PM

2016-02-17T12:32:40-05:00

i was navy corpsman 85-87 with the Marines, went through the crash course at Camp Johnson, NC FMSS. After getting my assignment went through the steps to become FMF, made it. After leaving AD went Navy Reserves, it sucked so I thought I'd give the Army a chance, culture shock does'nt even come close, there is diffinately a difference between USMC and USA, but I stuck it out 27 years, my success in the USAR was because of my time with the USMC, my success in the civilian world is also attributed to the Corps, I work in a factory and see way too many young lives expecting something for nothing, and as I got along in my USAR career I saw the same, time out cards in basic, cant cuss out soldiers, cant smoke soldiers, counselling, counselling and more counselling, if you if you dont do it right then it starts over, waist of time and paper. My NCO's could'nt understand that thier job is'nt just one weekend a month 2 weeks of the year, once drill over thier job done, much wasted time at drills doing what could've been done at home.

Response by GySgt John O'Donnell made Feb 17 at 2016 1:00 PM

2016-02-17T13:00:07-05:00

SSG Watson makes a very clear and concise point that he is not "putting down" our Army brothers-in-arms / his branch of service, but he is identify a point of view based on his research and findings. Having read through the many comments, I came across the post by SSG Scott... to which I sent a reply (see below)
---------------------------------
SSG Scott (original post)
I suppose it depends on the MOS a soldier signed up for, yes we are all infantry first but let's be honest, I chose to drive trucks for a living over being an infantry man. I say that to say this, I am quite sure those in the Army that love or want an elite challenge are in the respected MOS to be able to do so i.e Infantry, Rangers ,Special Forces etc. etc.

My reply to SSG Scott,
Having read your comment, I think you and I are the most comparable to prove the point the author was making.
As you said, you chose to drive trucks for the Army instead of being an infantryman...and I made the same choice when I joined the Marine Corps. Having earned the title Marine, we realized that there is nothing more "respected" about one MOS over the other. We are equals no matter what the MOS (though there is bantering), each individual supports the mission objective, to achieve success and are trained / given opportunities as a "Marine" not an MOS. To this point, though my MOS is Motor Transport and I have served in the capacity throughout my career, I am also a Navy/Marine Corps Parachutist, Pathfinder, Marine Combat Instructor (at the School of Infantry), Fire-support coordinator, and Anti-Terrorism Officer, all of which are secondary to being "respected" as a Marine.
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I reposted this because in my opinion, this an excellent example of the point SSG Watson is trying to make. Myself and SSG Scott are the same MOS, but how we view our place (i.e. MOS respect within our service) is viewed through differing lenses. Marines identify as "Marines" first and foremost, not Infantry, Airborne, Special Ops, ect. Our warrior ethos are derived from each individual "earning the title" and maintaining the standard from that moment on with a common "collective spirit" no matter the occupation. No "Marine" is respected over another, from Private to General we are one, as Marines. Hence "Once a Marine, always a Marine", signifying our singular identity.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 1:58 PM

2016-02-17T13:58:15-05:00

I am not nor was a marine, but kind of wish I went THERE instead of the army, this explains what I was wondering for the past 30 years. In minutiae. It all makes sense to me now, and now knowing that things have changed THAT much since I was in (Jan 92) to NOW? wow Army, you really DID go soft. I was yelled at, we had pugil stick training and kind of a karate ju jitsu type fighting...but it is good that I can understand it more now though...appreciate this post. It is a big eye opener, I hope that the higher ups, {Pentagon and above} take notice here...but I doubt it.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Feb 17 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-02-17T16:51:47-05:00

I'm pretty sure every former Marine wearing an Army uniform just leaned back and said "FINALLY! Someone said it!".

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Feb 17 at 2016 5:28 PM

2016-02-17T17:28:36-05:00

Some things I agree with you on, basic training being one of them. But I would point all of the services take the short route to basic training and AIT. When we send soldiers or marines to 8-10-12-14 weeks of Basic then send them to three weeks of AIT, what did we create? A problem in the making. What is the quality of a truck driver who learns nothing but a 2.5 ton truck for four weeks?
Or 5 week artillery school. We preach safety, we pay lip service to maintenance, then are flabbergasted with our piss poor results.

I remember reading that the British basic training is 6 months long, they belong to a regiment their whole career. The Army plays some sort of game with regiments, here wear a crest, you belong to this regiment (what is that about anyways?). We have some real regiments, but by and large we don't have that, so do away with it once and for all.

Yes the Corp has a lot of pride, no doubt about it, but what is the incidence of offenses off post? Divorce factors, Anger management issues, UCMJ problems, how many BCD's are issued in the Corps?. Those are also indicators, and not good ones. Being treated like a subservient turd is not what a lot of people like for years on end. Not that Army doesn't have its own issues, because we do. The Corps does something right, and I am sure there are affair number behind that anchor globe and eagle who wish they had it a little better than how they are being treated then or now.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 17 at 2016 8:37 PM

2016-02-17T20:37:40-05:00

He's saying stuff that was already known. Well written yes, but everyone knows that the Army is softer than ever. In my BCT in 2007, I felt it was way too soft. I then heard that three privates were chosen to go speak with the post CSM and tell him that they thought it was too hard. BCT and Boot are not meant to be gentlemen courses. They are to break you down and build you into a soldier or marine.

Response by SPC Jonathan Schmidt made Feb 17 at 2016 11:09 PM

2016-02-17T23:09:57-05:00

The sole reason the Marine Corp can do that is because the other branches give them the luxury of not needing to train legions of support personnel. Hell, they don't even train their own medics, they have to go to the Navy for those.

What the Marines do is train infantry, and they are good at it. But you cannot equate a training program that has to turn out all kinds of personnel ranging from infantry to support personnel to one that has the pure luxury of training infantry.

Response by CPO Greg Frazho made Feb 17 at 2016 11:14 PM

2016-02-17T23:14:24-05:00

Very in-depth and very insightful think-piece on the warrior ethos, Staff Sgt. A lot of good nuggets to chew on. But at the risk of oversimplifying the matter, consider this: Marines are essentially the shock troops of the U.S. military arsenal. The Army, which used to hold its own in that company, has become not so much the knife edge of the blade that swings, so to speak, as they are the rest of the sword that comes thereafter. The former is a fighting force, the latter is now an occupation force, although I would argue there are exceptions. Whereas Marines are, or were, by their very nature expeditionary, the Army, not least due to its size (as you mention above) is not in the business of expeditions. That translates into a much more visceral raison d'être in the case of our beloved USMC.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 12:20 AM

2016-02-18T00:20:22-05:00

Something that has always gotten under my skin is when I hear soldiers talk about how the Marines are better. "The Marines have better this, that and the other thing. The Army should do it that way." If that was what you wanted you should have gone and joined the Marines. The Army and the Marine Corps are two different services that (used to, at least) have two fundamentally different purposes. They are naturally going to do things differently. And as for Marines that left the Corps and joined the Army, if the Marines are so much better than the Army why did you leave?

Response by SSG Scott Burk made Feb 18 at 2016 8:49 AM

2016-02-18T08:49:23-05:00

I totally agree.

Response by SGT Ben Keen made Feb 18 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-02-18T09:08:32-05:00

SSG Lon Watson - I waited to form my thoughts before responding to your post, but I think you bring up some great points yet discount others. First, let me tell you where I'm coming from on all this. I joined the Army in 1999. I attended basic training at "Relaxin' Jackson" that summer. My BCT platoon was made of mainly split-option reservists. While my memory has been messed up due to my accident in Iraq during my first deployment there as part of 1 Brigade Combat Team of the 101st Airborne Division in early 2003, I remember two things about my time in basic training.

The first thing I remember are the fire ants. Those little bastards were every where! In fact, I really don't remember not seeing one anywhere we went. One time, our Drill SGTs came out to inspect that our canteens were full of water and because several members of platoon had canteens that weren't totally topped off as instructed, we all ended up doing push ups. I remember looking down at my hands that were then covered with these small, painful jerks.

The second thing I remember is SSG Moran. He was our platoon's senior Drill Sergeant. He, like you, was involved in several deployments and like you, felt the need to instill the basics into us. Yes, he followed the doctrine as given to him but it seemed like our Platoon did everything differently. He, and the other drill sergeants in the platoon, were hard but fair. Completing a task was not only expected but demanded. If you failed to complete the task, you went to the end of the line and did it again. This went for everything. From marksmanship to shinning boots to making bed; nothing was done until they said it was done. It sucked at the time but through out my short 8.5 years in the Army, I remained thankful for this because I took to the units I was assigned and thankfully, I was always part of an effective team every where I went.

Yes, I can agree that my experience and the way I took it was not the norm. Yes, I agree that there are some much needed improvements needed not just in the Army but across the DoD when it comes to training. But I think the biggest the hurdle we as a collective face is this notion of a "new Army" or "today's Army". Just do a quick search on here. You'll see post after post after post asking "what is wrong with today's Army". To which my answer is and will remain this. The Army is a reflection of it's leadership; from the ones that wear stars to the ones that wear chevrons, the culture of the military is placed in our hands. We, the leaders, are the ones that shape "today's Army". We are the standard, the backbone of our beloved Army. The standards change if and only when we allow them to change.

Response by SPC Joshua Dawson made Feb 18 at 2016 9:52 AM

2016-02-18T09:52:57-05:00

I'm wondering where you had basic training if you have opinions like that. I've talked with several prior service Marines and most of them didn't even come close to the treatment we received at Benning from day one all the way until we left on the bus. They initially called it "red phase" and they constantly told us that it was only for the beginning of the training cycle but our entire training cycle was "red phase" hell they even added more onto it the closer it got to the end.

Response by SPC Joshua Dawson made Feb 18 at 2016 9:57 AM

2016-02-18T09:57:43-05:00

After what I experienced on a 15 month deployment, in which my unit was tasked out under the Marine Task Force, I do not have much of an opinion of Marines or even much respect for them either. They sent us out to all the areas they kept getting messed up in and they would hardly even bring us supplies, then they would only come out on 2 week rotations to stay where we were and in that time they would completely trash the place and try to steal whatever they could so not only were they trying to take what little we even had out there but they were trashing the whole place and just leaving it like that for my unit to take care of as well.

Response by SSgt Thomas Crosser Jr. made Feb 18 at 2016 10:19 AM

2016-02-18T10:19:45-05:00

It was a great culture shock to go from the Marines (0311) to the Air Force (Security Forces). Things that I saw in the AF that would have never been allowed in the Marine Corps included barracks that were trashed, yet no one wanted to take responsibility and leadership that could not be bothered to come in and handle the issue. Sure it was Saturday, but who cares, you dont toss your garbage off the 3rd floor, you dont throw beer bottles everywhere, and you dont leave chicken wing bones and empty pizza boxes in the day room. Any Marine NCO worth his salt passing such a sight would immediately beat down every door, hold a formation and have the place scrubbed top to bottom on the off chance that maybe, just maybe, the Gunny forgot something in his office and decided to come in at 0400 on Sunday morning. I saw kids that lived in one man rooms and then went downrange to sleep in 8 man tents and had coping issues. Marines think a tent is a luxury, and one with A/C is the freakin Taj Mahal. Hell, sleeping indoors is a luxury most Infantry Marines never expect to see when deployed. I shaved and bathed from canteen cups, but if the hot water went out, you thought the world was coming to an end, same with the laundry facilities, never mind that some Wisk, a GI Brush and elbow grease will get clothes clean enough. Kids would starve rather than eat an MRE, and certainly not a cold one. We are not doing these kids any service by pampering them at home, then placing them in austere locations and expecting the same level of performance. They need to learn to do it quick and dirty, on little sleep, in the rain and mud. If they can do it there, they can do it anywhere. But we are doing it backwards, training them in comfort and then sending them off into a messy world. Let's stop that nonsense.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Feb 18 at 2016 10:23 AM

2016-02-18T10:23:04-05:00

Wait until you read my women in combat arms and SOF article! It will be as thought provoking as this one! I'll probably get more hate mail than I already have.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 5:16 PM

2016-02-18T17:16:25-05:00

i went to my AIT where there were Marines for school too. whenever we saw them, they were not as highly trained as what you were comparing the Army to.

also when I arrived to basic training, it wasn't all love and hugs, it was shock and awe. so if you think it's getting soft then maybe you need to go back through training again.

Marines are not all that special, or elite.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2016 8:58 PM

2016-02-18T20:58:58-05:00

Great read, I have worked with Marines, Navy and Airforce. I have noticed in all branches there are some flaws. Very interesting read I would have never looked at it from that point of view. Love all my brothers and sisters in all branches. One team one fight.

Response by GySgt Michael Hafenbrack made Feb 19 at 2016 3:53 PM

2016-02-19T15:53:39-05:00

One note to make on what is so far an excellent article, The note I wanted to make is the basic camaraderie within the Army and other branches. For instance, I travel quite a bit for my business and noticed while sitting in airports that Soldiers will walk right past another Soldier without acknowledging each other. Hell I can't go to Home Depot or anywhere without meeting a Marine and at least sharing a greeting but mostly it turns into about a 1/2 hour discussion. It doesn't matter when they served or how they served, Marines acknowledge Marines. It is strange that the other branches don't have that brotherhood. Besides you have to remember WE are all WE have when bullets go down range.

Semper Fi
Gysgt. Hafenbrack
USMC RET

Response by Sgt Joe LaBranche made Feb 19 at 2016 5:29 PM

2016-02-19T17:29:01-05:00

The Marine Corps breaks you down as an individual, to build you up as part of a team. This process makes you no less or more important than the lowest member of the team.
The Corps instills a sense of confidence and invisibility in every Marine. You are trained to believe there is nothing you can't achieve or accomplish, no matter how difficult the situation. You adapt, improvise, and overcome!
It doesn't mattet if we are the best or if anyone else thinks we sre the best; we know and believe we are the best and will accept any challenge.
There is something special about the title, United States Marine!

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Feb 19 at 2016 7:19 PM

2016-02-19T19:19:19-05:00

This has to be an early candidate for Command Post entry of the year :)

Response by SGT Richard H. made Feb 19 at 2016 7:27 PM

2016-02-19T19:27:20-05:00

SSG Lon Watson Having served first as a Marine, then as a soldier, I'm with you all the way on this one. A couple of things I'd sharpen to a finer point, though:
first, the Army 9-10 weeks and the Marine Corps 13 weeks are not exactly accomplishing the same thing. The Marine Corps 13 weeks results in every Marine being a basic Infantryman, and future MOS training comes on top of that, so I would argue the point about the luxury of time. Army Infantry OSUT is 13 weeks. I'd relate it to that instead of just a plain-jane 10 week boot camp. Time is of the essence for EVERYTHING in Marine Corps Basic training. Also, who told you that Marine Recruits get 30 seconds to put on their pants (Trousers)?? Hell, if they had given me 30 seconds to put on my trousers, I could have slept another 20 seconds!

Response by LCpl Cody Collins made Feb 19 at 2016 9:38 PM

2016-02-19T21:38:36-05:00

You are spot on !

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Feb 20 at 2016 1:45 AM

2016-02-20T01:45:05-05:00

First, long of a post so long response. I don't buy any of this as an Army thing or Army wrong. This is a SSG Lon Watson thing. From your foxhole as a Chem NCO now picking up a Marine Corps book and questioning why the Army can't be like the Marines. Why would Chuck Norris wanna be like Bruce Lee? They're both awesome in their own way. I don't know what kind of Army basic training you went to in the 80s or you're referring to but my basic training in 91 with C 1-26 INF at Dix was hell and we didn't become Soldiers until graduation. And we damn sure were tough, proud and disciplined. Additionally as an Ordnance Soldier all our professional developmental schools were extremely challenging academically, physically, and in uniform and barracks standards. AIT, BNCOC and ANCOC all had barracks SOPs that were strictly enforced. Even after I went Warrant the Ordance Corps expectations continued to grow. Just being Airborne and even a Jumpmaster doesn't qualify you to make these comments. What kind of unit you're in and what's your mission there paints a better picture of your experience. I know many units in BRAGG especially in the 82nd ABN that are at a very minimum just as tough or tougher than any Marine unit out there. Yes the Army doesn't do a very good job now at indoctrinating (brainwashing) recruits but that's why it's important to have strong first line NCOs and leaders at permanent party units so they can build on what was started in basic. We are a huge organization with immense versatility and lots of moving parts. And we're the first ones to get cut or surged. I wish every unit in the Army was more like the 82nd ABN, 101st ABN, 4th ID, and 10th Mtn and that all new Soldiers would start there so they can "be all they can be" and be Army strong!

Response by SSG William Rhodes made Feb 20 at 2016 2:48 AM

2016-02-20T02:48:58-05:00

The only thing I can say since I went thru basic, the Army standards have gone to shit. Nowadays not only recruits but also basic training units standards and traditions are weak!

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Feb 20 at 2016 7:27 PM

2016-02-20T19:27:47-05:00

I had the privledge to attend BNCOC and attend some Marine Corps Schools on an Army base. I witnessed some of the Basic training routines of the Army and attended BNCOC with some of the Drill Sergeants.
The Marine's Boot Camp indoctrinates as well as trains recruits in basic skills. The discipline. attention to detail and sense of urgency is much higher.
What is the differences in the services? Here is my spin on it. The top 10% of all the services Army, Navy, Air Force and Marines are all on par with each other as far as professionalism and being elite in their own way. The bottom 10% are equally worthless pieces of shit.
It is that other 80% where The Corps shines. In the other services the 80% consider themselves Billy, Bobby and Sue just marking time and doing a job. In the Corps they know they are above all a Marine.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 2:07 AM

2016-02-21T02:07:14-05:00

There is no doubt that the Marines, have and always had and will have the reputation of the toughest service. I do think the Army has moved in the right direction. Most of the soldiers I encounter today seem to have more of the "can-do" spirit and proud of what they do. When I see them it reinforces my pride in being a retired soldier. Just my impression. We a all a team that keep our country secure. Marines and special op troops obviously have tougher training, but the Air Force computer geek is still put of the team; (s)he may not have seen the physical rigors, but, nevertheless has the dedication to use his/her talent to serve our county and giving up better pay and probably more stable hours as a result.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 21 at 2016 9:32 AM

2016-02-21T09:32:37-05:00

Bull S__T!!!

Response by Capt Walter Miller made Feb 21 at 2016 12:43 PM

2016-02-21T12:43:59-05:00

Concur. At PI the whole thing and for the whole time is - WTF are you doing here? WHY ON EARTH do you think -you- could EVER be a United States Marine?

We graduated on a Monday morning. The previous Saturday I saw a DI in another platoon in our series choking a recruit - with his own crutch.

It made me shudder.

Walt

Response by COL Ted Mc made Feb 21 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-02-21T13:24:37-05:00

SSG Lon Watson - Staff; One of the difficulties involved in transferring "Marine Training/Thinking" to the Army is that "the Army" is simply too diffuse to have an identity. On the other hand, "The Corps" is seen by Marines as a single entity.

If you ask any Marine, "the Army" will NEVER be an "elite concept" because it will always be populated by non-Marines (who, by [Marine] definition, 'simply wouldn't be able to hack it as Marines'). With a 241 year head start, "The Marines" are going to be almost impossible to catch up with. With the human material that the Army attracts, catching up is going to be even harder. (This, however, does not mean that SECTIONS of the Army can't be as good as - or [HERESY ALERT] even better than Marines [/HERESY ALERT] - but they have to be LED to believe that they can be.)

You might also note that it doesn't seem a bit unusual to capitalize the "T" of the "the" when you refer to "The Corps" or "The Marines", but it does if you try to refer to "The Army".

PS - I do agree that the Army could try a bit harder than it seems to be doing these days.

Response by 1SG Myron Pullum, MBA made Feb 21 at 2016 3:39 PM

2016-02-21T15:39:55-05:00

US Army BCT 1973 @ Fort Dix, NJ. I don't remember how long basic was back then but some of the stuff I saw and experienced as a troop soundly contradicts what you're saying. Maybe things got "softer" years later. But we averaged one or two AWOLs per week. And I pitied your ass if you were captured and returned to duty. Yeah son, they put their hands on you! No love taps here, bro

Response by SGT William Parke made Feb 21 at 2016 7:13 PM

2016-02-21T19:13:04-05:00

So in another avenue, do you believe the Boot Camp process for Corrections is truly effective in reducing recidivism even among minor offense inmates?

Response by Cpl D L Parker made Feb 21 at 2016 11:36 PM

2016-02-21T23:36:47-05:00

thank you. Ive been searching for years the topic you just discussed. However doesn't the Army have something similar to the crucible?

Response by Sgt Lonnie Rush made Feb 22 at 2016 4:45 PM

2016-02-22T16:45:02-05:00

You have an idea of what some of the training is but you missed a lot. Combat training for Marines starts almost right away. You have hand to hand dills. Used to be called line training and now it's the martial arts training. Pugil Stick fighting that simulates bayonet fighting is one of the first platoon on platoon events we do. We also learn to rappel form a tower and a hell hole. There is the obstacle course and confidence course. There are classes on first-aid, weapons, fortified positions, land nav., and history. There is guard duty, general orders, code of conduct and they must all be memorized. Some of this may be what you call indoctrination but a lot of it applies to all services. It is just not taught until other services get to a school after basic. There is so much training and it is constantly GO, GO, GO, because that is the only way to learn it all in 3 months. Like you said it is not just teaching it is indoctrination.

Response by SFC Derrick Graves made Feb 22 at 2016 7:45 PM

2016-02-22T19:45:48-05:00

To the author I will say you are qualified to give your opinion but whether your qualified to make those statements is debatable. I'm curious to know why you didn't use a forum like AUSA, ARS (Army Retirement Services), etc., to voice your criticisms through the senior leadership up to the current SMA Daniel Dailey in order to address your perceptions and maybe affect some change if you were really concerned about today's soldier's in the Army. I'm retired and served from 1980 - 2000 and one thing I never forgot as a leader is the NCO CREED which has one the following excerpts: "I will be loyal to those with whom I serve; seniors, peers, and subordinates alike". You appear to be very hypocritical with this post considering your comments about your history with the Army. Posting these issues (which applies to all branches) on a social media site looks a bit self serving to me and benefits no one but you and your ulterior motives. I don't see the correlation between your duties as a prison boot camp drill sergeant and what's occurring in the basic training with the current Army. But since you were negligent and bias with your dissertation I feel it's my duty to enlighten the RallyPoint readers with some additional information of fact. As the largest of America's Armed Forces the Army also has a large amount of responsibilities with one of them being to train Marines (i.e, military police, combat engineers, armor, satellite communications, ranger training, airborne/air assault, military free fall, etc) which is something you failed to mention in your blog. How can you make comments about the current basic training in the Army (which is 9 weeks compared to 8 weeks in the 1980's) when you haven't even gone thru the current curriculum that today's recruits must pass. One thing I realized about the Army of today is that it's different then when I came in 1980, but today's soldier's are technical and tactically proficient and have proven it with 16 years of combat experience in the War on Terror. To you and your supporters basic training is one element of the game, winning wars is part of our fame which we continue to reign supreme as an Army Team!

Response by GySgt Joe Strong made Feb 23 at 2016 11:51 AM

2016-02-23T11:51:59-05:00

In another thread, I have made very much the same arguments. It has been said the measure of how smart someone is ; is how much they agree with you. By that criterion: SSG Lon Watson is a very smart man.

Response by PO3 Donald Murphy made Feb 23 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-02-23T13:03:27-05:00

The answer is obvious. We are a volunteer military. And while the Marines have never had recruiting problems/shortages, the other branches have. This is why USAF "grunts" are in combat now, females serving on submarines and kinder/gentler Army boot camp. Because people just aren't joining. Enlistment ages are expanded, tatoo's, etc. All because no one's joining. Were the Marines to experience manning shortfalls, then their talking heads and bean counters would board-room some changes. For now, the Dogs have no shortage of folk wanting to don the Khaki and Green and as the commercial says "be the ones running towards the gunfire and danger."

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 23 at 2016 6:19 PM

2016-02-23T18:19:34-05:00

My friend, I think you're looking at this wrong. I'm pretty sure this is a numbers game. The Army has huge numbers in budgeting and personnel compared to the Marines. This means they can afford a lot more in terms of billets/positions, equipment, responsibility, which leads to "compromises" in quality, because of the fact that is that the Army needs more personnel to man, train, and equip those positions, equipment, and responsibility. If you notice, the Marine Corps does not create it's own organic medical and religious personnel; in fact, if you look at our boating capacity, Marines only really operate AAVs, LAVs, and Zodiacs. Other amphibious personnel carriers are typically ran by either the Navy (for the most part) or in some instances the Army. This is because the Marine Corps can't afford to do so, both by budgeting, Title 10 authorities, and the like. The "brilliance in the basics" standpoint from square one for Marines is due to numbers; we are not allotted the same amount of personnel, so we do with what we got, and we start with the recruit. Because we can't afford to throw all the Corps' money and training into personnel, we indoctrinate to weed out those who can't hack it.
Take a look at the US Army's overall mission:
"The Army’s mission is to fight and win our Nation’s wars by providing prompt, sustained land dominance across the full range of military operations and spectrum of conflict in support of combatant commanders. We do this by:
•Executing Title 10 and Title 32 United States Code directives, to include organizing, equipping, and training forces for the conduct of prompt and sustained combat operations on land.
•Accomplishing missions assigned by the President, Secretary of Defense and combatant commanders, and Transforming for the future."
IOT provide SUSTAINED combat operations on land, it becomes a numbers game. The Marine Corps cannot conduct long-term sustained operations effectively; we're not built that way. We work best in the operational/tactical realm, not the strategic. We can be utilized in the strategic realm, but usually in the initial portions of a conflict; while in recent wars, this hasn't been the case, it's how it's supposed to go. That's where the United States needs Marines; at the bleeding edge front line. The training we get keeps that edge. Now while it'd help, it is simply unnecessary for regular Army personnel that're conducting long term engagements. Not every Soldier is going to be cut out for front line combat activities, SOF engagements, or extremely specialized missions; this is why there's a regular Army. Why hold them to that higher standard when there's no operational necessity to do so? Those who want to pursue those higher tiers that are more than encouraged to do so, and standards at those units are exceptionally high, even compared to the Marines. The Rangers, for example, will "Release For Standards" anyone who doesn't meet the Ranger standard back into conventional Army. The Marine Corps will separate personnel from the Corps who can't meet the standard, but nowhere near with the quickness the 75th Ranger Regiment does; Marines will take months, Rangers in a day or two MAX.
At this point you're probably thinking I'm missing your initial point in regards to quality Soldiers; what I'm trying to get to you is that this is a numbers game in regards to training quality Soldiers to meet personnel requirements which the Army has a lot of to meet. This becomes a balancing act of how effectively should the Army train/indoctrinate their Soldiers (the more intense, the higher the attrition rate) vice not being able to meet those manning requirements which sets long term engagements up for failure. What I'd start looking at, instead of comparing Marines to Soldiers, is not just giving Soldiers the tools of the trade but more of the wisdom to utilize them effectively. Making Soldiers more "Marine-like" isn't going to help anyone. The Army needs quality Soldiers, but this can't be done by making them Marines. You can build a better culture. Take away the coddling. Hold Soldier initiates to higher standards of conduct. Develop their confidence in their actions and decision making, while under stress. Teach them how to "make a decision uphill", if it ever comes to that. Ingrain within them the importance of the title they hold and how they fit into the greater Army puzzle.

Response by SSG Jane Doe made Feb 24 at 2016 9:59 PM

2016-02-24T21:59:10-05:00

You've made some great points. Personally I attended some JROTC summer bootcamps that I thought were harder then Army BCT. In my JROTC camps I had rangers, airborne, green beret and navy seal instructors. I was in the Raider company which is the high school version of rangers. The navy seals weighed us down in web gear and unexpectedly pushed us into a lake from speeding boats where we had to use the quick releases to get the gear off and re surface, the green berets took us out into the forrest where we learned to ID edible plants and bugs, made shelters with our ponchos and slept in them for 2 days while doing obstacle courses and leadership courses during the day. In JROTC we did the entire obstacle courses in BCT they skipped obstacles deemed "to dangerous" or restricted how high you could go on some obstacles. The Army needs to toughen up it's sad that I received harder training in high school then the real Army. In high school I ruck marched at a forced pace with a ruck so heavy I had to roll over on my belly to stand up. In BCT my ruck was 40 pounds and not much bigger then a backpack. The slowest person was placed at the head of our marches and those who couldn't keep up were thrown in the back of a truck. I LOVE the U.S. Army and the brother/sisterhood but I have only seen the standards become more and more lax and generations of "entitled" soldiers joining the ranks thinking they have the "right" to question everything.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2016 2:26 PM

2016-02-25T14:26:36-05:00

Go back to the want ta be warriors marines.We do not want you in our uniform.Go back to your 6 to 7 month tours,while mine are 13 to 16 months long in the Sh-t!U.S.ARMY wins just about all of the rifle and pistol competitions.The U.S.ARMY is the first in last out.The U.S.ARMY has more amphibious landing than the marines,to include WW2.We win at boxing,unarmed self defense.Hell we even beat the marines at there own marathon.It piss-s me off when you puss--s come over to my ARMY and start running your worthless mouth.Hell I heard a marine scream like a Bit-h when he came under fire.We kick everyone's ass.Oh,and we win the most sniper competitions.I could go on and on.But enough said on this worthless subject.And I will not reply back to this thread.P.S. I am not some in the rear with the gear F--k either.

Response by PO2 Samuel Young made Feb 25 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-02-25T17:49:56-05:00

If the Army were as good as the Marines we wouldn't need the Marines.

Response by TSgt Robert Belcher made Mar 30 at 2016 1:37 AM

2016-03-30T01:37:47-04:00

My older brother was a Marine, I remember attending his graduation from Boot Camp at Camp Pendleton, from that moment on he would have my everlasting respect and admiration because he had in fact earned the title MARINE, in my eyes they are the Ultimate Warriors, the only reason I didn't follow in his footsteps was because of my love of flying, I have often wondered if I could have measured up and become a Marine myself, the path not taken.

Response by SFC Dee Emswiler made May 11 at 2016 12:15 AM

2016-05-11T00:15:47-04:00

Why is this a better way to train? What are the statistics to back it up. How many more % marines get out or stay in after their first enlistment. What is the cost of training a soldier vs. a Marine? How does that make them more effective on today's battle field where most combat is fought at a distance with jets, tanks, artillery, and Multiple Launch Rocket systems? The perception that they think they are better doesn't make them better. They are trained for their job which is small arms combat, as are Special Forces, Delta and Rangers. But if you need a electronics technician to fix communications systems during the mother of all battles or a highly skilled interpreter to translate Arabic and decode the hidden meaning in a terrorist transmission that will save many civilian lives, you don't want an ground pounder who can say Sir Yes Sir. You want a technically trained expert who stayed in the Army for multiple years to hone their craft and increase their knowledge.

Response by SFC Jeff Couch made May 11 at 2016 8:38 PM

2016-05-11T20:38:15-04:00

Very well wrote did you hit on how some years back the army handed out stress card to use once a week what the f*** is that we would have had that shoved in places it shouldn't

Response by LtCol Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 6:27 PM

2016-05-14T18:27:26-04:00

There is always room in the Army to tighten up just like in any other service. I've been a student of Army schools on numerous occasions and was impressed by the professionalism, engagement and intellect of the Army officers I was learning along side with. I also served in both Iraq and Afghanistan along side them, and depended on them numerous occasions. I was never let down. This is "my Army" too...and I'm just as proud of their service as I am the fellow Marines I serve with. I for one would like to see them tighten up on the discipline (in this case entry level training) and on the weight standards. The rest will/would fall into place. Nothing but respect for them though...they are our brothers, and I'd share a foxhole with any of them any time, any place, as I know they'd have my back as I would have theirs in a firefight. Just look at the population of the Medal of Honor recipients and numerable successes, up to and including the capture of Saddaam Hussein. I've got nothing but respect for our fellow green warriors.

Response by CSM Thomas McGarry made May 14 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-05-14T18:48:23-04:00

I agree also on a different matter regarding the Marines and the US Army-Why did the Army spend several millions in research to determining that the ACU was the best camo pattern and then in a matter of a very few years decides to change to a pattern that is very similar to the Marine camo pattern. In this case I feel a little sorry for the Officers who now have to purchase the new patter uniform. Another example-currently the Army is researching what the best sidearm should be and is proposing spending 300 million in R&D yet the Marines are driving on will probably use a weapon that is currently in production. I hate to say it but I'm sure there are other examples though as retired Army I hate to hand it to the Marines!!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 6:48 PM

2016-05-14T18:48:45-04:00

From what I've read, it sounds like you may have simply picked the wrong branch. It's ok to admire from afar but here you come off as a wannabe. That's ok and all but you've never experienced life as a Marine, you've only researched it.

The grass is only greener when you water it.

Response by SPC Richard Stengline made May 14 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-05-14T19:15:21-04:00

The school is no more but 82nd/18th Airborne Recondo was a kick in the pants that changed you.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2016 2:46 AM

2016-05-15T02:46:51-04:00

My main problem with this question/statement is that you're talking about reception. A 3-5 day bit about as remembered as a visit to MEPS, and less influential. As an Army POG, I went to Ft. Knox before they cut the BCT from there, and my reception was miserable, sure, and there was yelling and shock, but nothing like getting to my BCT unit. Shit was hell, and I remember at graduation, there was nothing you could say to me that could convince me that I hadn't just gone through the gauntlet and earned the right to be called Soldier. It was AIT where my discipline faltered, and further still at my unit, due to some poor "ride it out, check the block, try to retire" leadership. But when I became a leader, I vowed not to let that happen to my Soldiers. Like one of the other Soldiers here mentioned, Soldiers, good or bad, are made at the unit. BCT is a template creation. But what I don't take kindly to is anyone claiming that anyone else outside of my Branch is better than us. You're out of your mind. Between our Airborne POGS, to our SOF POGS in CA, PSYOP, 160th, etc, not one organization on planet earth can claim to be better than my Army, POG or not. And you know where the difference lies? Leadership. Wanna talk about a "softer" Army? Watch me turn your worst Soldier around without so much as a curse word or a bead of sweat. I hate being compared to any Branch, but I damn well know we're not coming up short.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 10:21 AM

2016-05-16T10:21:47-04:00

you nailed it! Every Marine is a rifleman. A soldier is defined by the MOS it seems.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2016 10:35 AM

2016-05-16T10:35:17-04:00

I am a Marine forever. A soldier may say..I was in the Army

Response by SGM Frederic Smith made May 17 at 2016 12:03 PM

2016-05-17T12:03:16-04:00

I'm glad to see that someone has recognized the Army has become "One Big Social Experiment" by Civilians and Politicians through the eyes of someone from the outside looking in!!!

Response by SFC Marcus Belt made May 17 at 2016 4:51 PM

2016-05-17T16:51:34-04:00

So you're asking why the Army can't make EVERY non-combat MOS like every Marine?

The same reasons as always: time and money. This really can't be an issue you're having, right? I mean, you see where our budgets are going, and the fact remains that nobody asks the Human Resources Specialist or Paralegal to walk a combat patrol anymore than I'd ask an 11B to process court martial proceedings. Does every MOS need to be proficient with basic Soldier skills and tasks? Of course, but the entire USMC is built around expeditionary warfare, whereas, we have a Corps within the Army (XVIII Airborne) for that purpose, and within the legacy divisions of that formation, I defy you to show a lack of discipline, tactical and technical expertise and esprit de corps.

And our special operations capabilities AND capacity are far larger, which we manage to achieve despite your assertion that our initial entry system is flawed.

Next question.

Response by CPT Kurk Harris made May 18 at 2016 4:26 PM

2016-05-18T16:26:17-04:00

I think your post is fairly accurate. I was an Infantry Soldier for many years. From my perspective, the Marines do a great job instilling the warrior spirit in basic training. The Army, even in the Infantry do not. That being said, individual units (from division level down to the squad) can and frequently do produce high quality soldiers who have that same warrior spirit. It begins with standards being standards in the go to war units. They are not easy to achieve, nor are they compromised to accommodate those who cannot hack it. Basic training is just that, BASIC. The proof is in the pudding, though. Our soldiers have accomplished incredible exploits on the battlefield these many years of war. In Afghanistan and Iraq, those who have faced our soldiers have suffered. Being Army Strong is not just about being hyper motivated coming out of initial entry training, it's about taking the fight to the enemy and breaking him. Our Army soldiers have been doing that job admirably for 15 years straight.

Response by LTC Ed Kennedy made May 22 at 2016 8:21 AM

2016-05-22T08:21:00-04:00

GREAT article! The Marines have "broken the code". The Army will continue to cater to the lowest common denominator and not raise the standards. If the standards were raised, it might hurt someone's feelings and we don't want to do that. When I went through BCT during Vietnam, the sergeants training us were tough and expected high standards but the rot in discipline had begun with the lawyers getting involved. It's ten times worse today. Today we have what former military writer Hackworth called "Camp Snoopy" ---- summer camp style "challenges" instead of tough training. The NCOs know what to do but are hobbled by PC in the Army.

Response by SPC Erich Guenther made Aug 31 at 2016 12:53 AM

2016-08-31T00:53:18-04:00

"one of which was retro-actively considered a combat tour because of the unanticipated battle on 23 November 1984"............Anyone know if this is really true? I think I would have heard about it being in service at the time and for almost 3 years afterwards from the other Korea Vets.

Response by MSgt Roger Settlemyer made Oct 24 at 2016 4:13 AM

2016-10-24T04:13:37-04:00

You Took The Words Right Out Of My Mouth, Well Done. Our Next enemy either ISIS or the Chinese are trained very differently than we are. They are trained to Kill and take orders. If we attack a hill and have 75% casualties we fell we did not accomplish our mission. They did if they took the hill ! We take Air Superiority as granted, maybe in the near future, China will have it. Then what? Remember in the beginning of World War 2 Japan kicked our ass. You have to be mentally and physically tough to win the next war...................Semper Fi

Response by LCpl Tim Nance made Dec 29 at 2016 8:39 AM

2016-12-29T08:39:20-05:00

Well said

Response by SGT Sherrie Fanning made Feb 8 at 2017 3:34 PM

2017-02-08T15:34:38-05:00

To agree I believe in this shock treatment,but demeaning new recruits and making them feel less then a snake in the grass can also have reverse affects..I saw two Soldiers At Ft Jackson Commit Suicide because of this ..The background of People isn't known when u meet these Soldiers or Future Marines..No we can't treat them like Babies but Just saying there has to be a line drawn somewhere..

Response by SPC Kathy Wortman made Sep 22 at 2018 7:36 PM

2018-09-22T19:36:45-04:00

I went through basic training in 1989 at Ft Dix NJ. Reading your opinions about how “soft” Army basic is compared to the Marines (whom I might add I have the highest respect for) kind of bothered me. I was never treated “softly”. To this day I still remember the phrase “are you eyeballin me soldier!” We females did everything the male soldiers did, and in many ways were held to higher standards because we were “females”. We had to prove everything. Yes, there were weaker ones. Anyone who has been through basic knows the drill. The weak link causes punishment for all so DONT be the weak link. All I know is, there was nothing softer about my time. But then again that was a long time ago. I respect your opinion.

Response by Shane Harnett made Feb 1 at 2019 5:46 PM

2019-02-01T17:46:16-05:00

Having been an Australian Army Recruit Instructor (RI) and a Royal Australian Air Force Military Skills Instructor (MSI) I can only say shock and awe in the first couple of days works! The one comment that will always stay in my mind was from an Air Force recruit after Marching out of training “I thought it would be harder” that was after Air Force tried the soft gentle approach for a year. From day one the Australian Military teachs stress relation and that you can handle it. We always believed as Instructors that Recruit Training will set the Soldier, Sailor and Airman up for the rest of their career. Train hard, fight easy. Instilling the brotherhood mentality is a much lost ideal in the modern world of Combat.

Response by 1SG Paul Beal made Feb 1 at 2019 6:06 PM

2019-02-01T18:06:03-05:00

When you’re wounded and that Dustoff bird is coming in, I’ll bet you don’t care how well that medic coming down the hoist and the crewchief running can march. Or how tough the reception station was on those two warrant officers up front. Beal, 1SG. 4/421 Med Co (AA)

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 4:47 PM

2019-02-02T16:47:44-05:00

Well duh. Soldiers are a different group. Hell from guard to reserves to active are a different group. Not bad...just different.

I was active for 6 years as paratrooper in the 82ND for quite some time. Now I'm a guardsman, they are both soldiers but completely different.

It's more of a willing to fight spirit in the Army to a "we're the best at war" mentality. Honestly running a support element I love guardsmen, in a battle please give me marines, or better rangers

Response by CPL Clyde Willis made Feb 2 at 2019 5:54 PM

2019-02-02T17:54:28-05:00

I was in the army for 7 years as a crypto linguist/signal intelligence. Right after basic training but before AIT I went to language school for a year with members of all branches. Then our AIT was all together too. I formed close friendships with a good number of service members in other branches, and I've got nothing but love for the unique culture each branch has cultivated. The marines are more disciplined- no question about that. But the draw back to that culture, in my opinion and experience, is that they cannot draw and retain the high number of technically proficient individuals the other branches need.

That isn't to say all marines are unintelligent. That is to say that many people with high level technical skills will not choose to live that life. That is why the marines are the FEW... God bless the marines, but I'm proud of my service as a support MOS in the army. We worked magic without all the hoopla.

Response by Cpl Rc Layne made Feb 2 at 2019 6:36 PM

2019-02-02T18:36:24-05:00

There is no such thing as rehabilitation. It is a myth in the field of Corrections. I believe what you are looking for is " behavior modification", which is real, and is the primary result of USMC Boot Camp. The recruits have gone from me to we in their thought processes.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 7:13 PM

2019-02-02T19:13:39-05:00

I see that you've given this a great deal of thought. I believe that experience as an Army DS may have helped you reach different conclusions.
How many Army receptions did you observe, or participate in, to reach the conclusions about Army training?
I disagree with many of your assertions, and believe they lack an awareness of what actually happens during Army basic training.
I served as a DS, and am certain the experiences of my Soldiers wasn't what you described. I was the Detachment Sergeant for HHD, 82nd CM BN in 2001, when TRADOC implemented a standardized zero day. I personally observed and evaluated the initial implementation, and don't believe it was comforting, or otherwise as you described. Inprocessing and reception at the Reception Station, where the Soldiers get their initial issue and wait to ship to their unit may not match the reception at the Marine Corps, but that doesn't support the conclusions presented.
I don't disagree that the Marine Corps is more indoctrination, but disagree with the majority of your conclusions, based on my first hand experience.
I do agree that the Marine Corps has done a better job at teaching its history to recruits.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2019 7:24 PM

2019-02-02T19:24:00-05:00

I will have to say that the army has changed a lot. I spent 23 years in the army. But, when I joined, it wasn't like it is now. We were petrified of our drill instructors, all the way through AIT. We learned to respect our leaders and NCO's. I just recently retired and I could tell the difference in the type of soldiers the army is recruiting now, compared to 20 years ago. Now it is quantity not quality.

Response by MSG Frank Kapaun made Feb 2 at 2019 10:29 PM

2019-02-02T22:29:04-05:00

Your point? If you want to be a Marine, join the USMC.

Response by MAJ Steve Daugherty made Feb 3 at 2019 10:55 AM

2019-02-03T10:55:17-05:00

Good points and when I entered basic training in the Army in 1971 the DI’s were on our ass from the gitgo, but they were all combat veterans and they sincerely were trying to train us to survive the war in SE asia. They had all internalized that mission because of comrades they had already lost. And if you couldn’t adjust they had special training platoons that were almost Draculan in their training and they came out good soldiers or were deemed pretty worthless, back then you weren’t allowed to just quit because it hurt your feelings , But irregardless, where the rubber meets the road is Combat performance, is there a profound difference when the shooting starts? Has anyone ever evaluated this, as it would be more telling if successful training strategies than anecdotal impressions, though not to negate the importance of trained observation

Response by SSG Wally Lawver made Feb 3 at 2019 2:06 PM

2019-02-03T14:06:59-05:00

Correct. I am retired Army, but will always be a Marine.

Response by Col James Cooke made Feb 3 at 2019 10:52 PM

2019-02-03T22:52:07-05:00

Well thought out critique, SSG Watson! Any one who gets upset over a critique needs to think real hard WHY he/she is getting upset or even angry. Then they are in a far better position to respond logically.

Response by SGT Mike Adams made Feb 4 at 2019 12:34 AM

2019-02-04T00:34:09-05:00

I guess this guy joined after the middle 70’s. Basic training was rough. I seen a dozen guys not make it through. However on 1980 I was yelling at one of the guys in my squad. He started crying, he said the drill sergeants didn’t even yell at them. He also mentions several hard core units. I thought my Calvary Regiment, the 11th ACR was a pretty hardcore outfit.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Feb 4 at 2019 1:09 PM

2019-02-04T13:09:28-05:00

You folks that keep hating on my article, thanks it’s almost to 100k views!

Response by MAJ Mark Anderson made Feb 4 at 2019 1:18 PM

2019-02-04T13:18:44-05:00

Concur. I appreciate how Marines are riflemen first, their assigned duty specialty second. I believe all Marines CAN be riflemen as a result but not all Soldiers can and do.

Response by SSgt Gerald Davis Jr made Feb 4 at 2019 4:51 PM

2019-02-04T16:51:21-05:00

As a Marine. Ft Benning OSUT is not basic training. The next guy tapped out which says something about his attention to detail. The comment about money needs to include the value of a life. I enlisted in 1965 while still in high school. Went to Parris Island just after graduation. I decided on the Marines because I knew I would be drafted and sent to Vietnam. I wanted the best training to survive. After 9 years and 2 tours I got out and went into the reserves. 1977 gas prices skyrocketed so I transfered to the National Guard 6 blocks from my house. as a SSgt. Getting out was the worst mistake of my life but enlisting was the best.

Response by Cpl Bill Johnson made Feb 4 at 2019 5:04 PM

2019-02-04T17:04:08-05:00

Well said, Ssgt. Everything you said is important, but the most important was this: " the Army trains, the Marines indoctrinate"

Response by SSG Joseph VanDyck made Feb 4 at 2019 6:01 PM

2019-02-04T18:01:06-05:00

When GEN Shinseki took the black beret away from the Rangers and made it a "leg beret" because he saw some squared away 75th Rangers at a JFK SWC memorial and he figured, wrongly, that the beret made the soldier so lets give it to everyone so everyone will be squared away. This fits nicely into your statements on mentality between soldiers and marines. You are also correct that indoc in the USMC is one of the things that makes a private in the USMC better than a US Army private. Respect. That is why 1st units receiving newly minted soldiers are bitching about shit bag privates. The Army is reaping what it sowed over the last 15 to 20 years. Having been a reservist DS and working with both reservist and active duty drills, I have learned 2 things. 1) Prior service Marines make the best soldiers. 2) Prior service Marine DI's make the best US Army DS's. Now, I do recognize that there are exceptions to everything. Like you stated, Rangers/Infantry/Airborne/SF/CAG are the exceptions that I know of. There are also other exceptions to where the USMC isn't always the best either and they have their shitbags also. Just my 2 cents.

Response by SGT Patrick Adamek made Feb 4 at 2019 7:31 PM

2019-02-04T19:31:05-05:00

The Marines are looking for a few good men, the Army just needs as many people as they can push thru training

Response by MSG Scott McBride made Feb 5 at 2019 7:19 AM

2019-02-05T07:19:18-05:00

Well said. I concur with this spot in assessment.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2019 9:07 AM

2019-02-05T09:07:36-05:00

I am a Marine and retired Soldier, very well written, hit the nail on the head. I was Seen as an old fashioned leader in the Army.

Response by SPC Tony Ross made Feb 5 at 2019 12:55 PM

2019-02-05T12:55:19-05:00

Excellent article but the Marines are, for all intents and purposes, an elite group. They are meant to be an infantry on steroids. They are the Green Berets, Airborne and all other special forces rolled into one. They are Spartans....the 300.
The army is like one responder said, “close to a million” whereas the Marines less than 200K. They are trained different to be different.
As a soldier, my Marine cousin and I used to take jabs at each other but there was no one I would trust more to have my back, even now as veterans .
Marines have a different mentality even before recruitment. They volunteer for that training and any man or woman wearing that EGA has my respect.
The Army may seem softer but their training covers the aspects that compliment the Marines and what all branches bring to the table make our military complete.

Response by Lt Col George Roll made Feb 5 at 2019 2:45 PM

2019-02-05T14:45:23-05:00

I started reading Leatherneck Magazine when I was 12 or 14. My plan was to join the Corps when I graduated highschool. My Dad and Uncle both pushed me to join the AF for the "technical training. I did so but at the end of four years the AF offered Jump Scchool and Combat Control Career field.
During the next 26 years I had great oppertunities to work with and train with Navy SEALS, complete SCUBA and HALO/ HAHO training work with the British and Australian SAS. The German GSG9, The Danish Yeager Corps and many other Special Operations Forces. I had a great career but still wish somewhere in there I had served in the USMC.would have wanted to have been in Force Recon or MARSOC.

Response by Cpl William Battles made Feb 5 at 2019 8:15 PM

2019-02-05T20:15:59-05:00

Semper Fi

Response by MSG Robert Ford made Feb 5 at 2019 10:01 PM

2019-02-05T22:01:28-05:00

I see your point... but the army is much bigger and train in basic for over 200 career fields... the marine basically make all there people be a infantry soldier... we have special training after basic to horn the skill necessary for the career field you selected... don't fix what not broke....

Response by SFC Charlie Broadus II made Feb 5 at 2019 10:29 PM

2019-02-05T22:29:19-05:00

Sounds like to me you should have transferred to the Marines if you admire them so much. And to educate you a little bit the Army used to be like that, don't really know when they got soft but you are right, and shorten your comment not many people want to read a book here

Response by A1C Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 5 at 2019 10:30 PM

2019-02-05T22:30:50-05:00

You lost me when you said “Air Borne is an elite school” and “Drill is just as important as PT” Is that really the best use of our time?

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 9:34 AM

2019-02-06T09:34:05-05:00

So much butthurt.

The Army does a lot of things right in my opinion. What a lot of people fail to see is the “Sh*tbaggery” that a lot of marines fall into once they hit the fleet.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 11:46 AM

2019-02-06T11:46:48-05:00

Hang my head if this pussy-fyd crap has become acceptable behavior in the Army. I often think back to my basic training in 1975 at Knox. Old wooden barracks. And bless those Vietnam grunt DI's. They kicked our asses ever day.

Response by SPC Brad Pratt made Feb 6 at 2019 11:58 AM

2019-02-06T11:58:31-05:00

Having served on active duty (‘89-‘96) army. I observed the quota push in the early ‘90’s. Don’t get me wrong some of those leaders I would have followed to hell & back. But I’ve had NCOIC’s that I couldn’t understand (broken English). Other times as a corporal, I have to refresh (E-7’s & an E-8) SGT’s on D & C. Because they spent their entire career in a MEDAC & wore civilian close to work. And never what real army was (#FieldUnit)
AIR ASSAULT

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 2:31 PM

2019-02-06T14:31:26-05:00

I would say if you are basing this off of say Ft. Jackson standards you may be correct, but if you are basing this off of OSUT you are wrong. I agree that the non combat basic needs an overhaul, heck the army is actually overhauling OSUT as well making it longer. I know when Ft. Knox had both OSUT and regular basic the standard was pretty high, but the army decide to ship TRADOC training off post.

Response by Cpl Clinton Britt made Feb 6 at 2019 4:25 PM

2019-02-06T16:25:08-05:00

There is a reason why we advertise and wear moto gear when we retire or get out. Love for the Corps from day one

All of boot camp is a emphasis on team.....there is no I.

Response by PFC Gerald Bailey made Feb 6 at 2019 4:33 PM

2019-02-06T16:33:34-05:00

I feel that Army has gotten softer since 1982 when I went to OSUT in Fort Sill, OK. I still believe that I could've been an even better soldier had I done 10 weeks of basic training instead 8, and 7 weeks AIT instead of 5. I'm a cannon crewman.

Response by SrA Richard Birdsong made Feb 6 at 2019 4:57 PM

2019-02-06T16:57:45-05:00

The Army sounds like the air force. You march in basic and not much after that

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 6:05 PM

2019-02-06T18:05:56-05:00

Yawn, multiple factual inaccuracies in this from the Army side. Apples and oranges at best.

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Feb 6 at 2019 6:12 PM

2019-02-06T18:12:11-05:00

I don't know when you went to boot. I went in the 70's and sand hill was kick ass boot and inf school.

Response by TSgt Rudy Adame made Feb 6 at 2019 7:39 PM

2019-02-06T19:39:55-05:00

Agreed

Response by SPC Gary Mckeown made Feb 6 at 2019 7:51 PM

2019-02-06T19:51:21-05:00

And he’s still a leg

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 6 at 2019 8:28 PM

2019-02-06T20:28:54-05:00

Boot camp must have changed since I attended...

Response by SPC Nathaniel Rheinstein made Feb 7 at 2019 12:40 AM

2019-02-07T00:40:53-05:00

I recall my Cav training at Benning not being very friendly

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Feb 7 at 2019 7:02 AM

2019-02-07T07:02:29-05:00

Shoot, I'm ex-Navy. There was nothing reassuring when I arrived at "Great Mistakes". It was non-stop screaming for at least the first four weeks. What has the Army turned into?

Response by SFC Michael Arabian made Feb 7 at 2019 7:04 AM

2019-02-07T07:04:52-05:00

We can all sit here and pat ourselves on the back and boast about what we did/ do for any branch of the service. We even put one branch above another as long as we served in that branch we are putting over. But to sit here and say one branch is better because you read about it is just wrong. I served 26 years active duty in the Army, My father served 14 years in the Marine Corps before passing away as a result of Vietnam, I read book and tried to find out as much as I could about the Marines and my father, does that make me an expert on the Marines No. what that make me is a Marine Corp brat, who later joined the Army and became a expert in they need of me at the time

Response by MSG Thomas Currie made Feb 8 at 2019 4:31 PM

2019-02-08T16:31:35-05:00

I probably shouldn't respond because I have to admit that I quit reading this nonsense diatribe less than 1/4 of the way through it. I had to quit reading because I was laughing too hard after this wannabe started babbling about elite units and included Infantry.

Bottom line, yes, the US Army training and overall ethos isn't as tough as the Marine Corps. Does that hurt the mission capability of either service? - no it does not. Does it make a difference in how the services go about accomplishing their mission? - almost certainly it does.

There are far more differences between the Marine Corps and the Army besides just the stress level of USMC Reception and training -- and those differences provide the nation with two DIFFERENT military services which are NOT interchangeable, never have been interchangeable, never were meant to be interchangeable, and (hopefully) never will be interchangeable.

Should the Army attempt to mimic the Marine Corps? Hell No! There is no more reason for the Army to mimic the Marine Corps than there would be for the entire Marine Corps to adopt Scout Sniper School plus BUD/S as the training standard for MOS 0311

Response by SPC Vonnie Jones made Mar 10 at 2019 11:03 AM

2019-03-10T11:03:33-04:00

Sometimes comparisons is not good. When ever you compare your self with someone else (especially someone you admire you will come up short). You sited all the pro and con with army training. Also mabe you should look at retention numbers of the two forces? You cant say one is better than the other until you factor in the retention, rate, promotion rate, usmj rate even suicides rate before you lable one a successful at making a fighting machine. Comparing the to is not apples to apples. Ever corp is different, but the question I have is are they effective? I am sure the aswer is yes. They reason you go army, navy are air force is because you don't want to be a marine. Best regards

Response by SPC Oscar TorresPlata made Mar 22 at 2019 3:01 AM

2019-03-22T03:01:58-04:00

Good day Gentleman, great post to SSG Watson very detailed! As many have commented every Branch has its objective. Marines are harden-up because there job is to take the beaches and secure way for the rest etc, so it's obvious that they need a special Psychological push mentally and physically. Army as well has many tasks in hand. Some have said that is why we have several units that are prepared for such tasks so ultimately we can't expect truck drivers or communication personal to have the same drive that a Marine will have taking a beach etc. Maybe the post missed out on the difference of what other branches do as a whole to be as one but we have a great and solid Force that cannot be beaten by no other. God Bless America

Response by SPC Mitch Saret made Mar 22 at 2019 3:03 PM

2019-03-22T15:03:56-04:00

There are two main differences between the USMC and the Army. First is size. The Marines are just a corp, the Army has many corps size units. Se one is mission. The phrase "every Marine a rifleman" really does apply. That goes for women, too. Ever notice the Marine Corps has no medics? Navy corpsman are assigned to infantry units.

I did army OSUT at Ft. Benning and it was just as you describe (Charlie 7-1). The one week reception at Ft. Jackson was way more laid back. This is another difference...there are only two places for Marine Corps boot camp and the reception station is the same place. The group in my reception outfit had people going all over for basic.

I also did jump school at Benning (44th Company, Death From Above!). And it was even more indoctrinating.

With so many non-combat oriented positions, the Army has to be different in training.

Response by SPC Steven Depuy made Mar 23 at 2019 7:23 AM

2019-03-23T07:23:50-04:00

I have no idea what goes on today, my experience is 43 years old. I know in 76, Army basic training was a joke. But we did have to do guard duty at the Rusty Nail at Fort Knox, a Marine tanker bar on post, and honestly, I never saw a lot there that overly impressed me either. But the draft had just ended, and maybe all the services at that point were struggling to fill boots, I don't know. I have always had respect for someone who made it through Paris Island, but that does not make them a demi God, just someone who could suck it up for a few months and endure the brutal experience.

Response by 1SG Leon Espe made Mar 23 at 2019 8:38 AM

2019-03-23T08:38:44-04:00

I am 87 years old, retired Army. I was a young 18 year old Army corporal in November and December 1950 with a Squad of Draftees all older than me when my Platoon was selected to join up with a Regimental Combat Team to go help the Marines who were surrounded by the what seemed like the whole damned Chinese Army. Guess who came to the rescue of those supermen Marines, us poorly trained, misguided, stumblebum United States Army Riff Raff of young NCOs and elderly Draftees, that's who. If I remember right 800 Marines and 2000 Army were killed at the Chosin. The Marines were evacuated out of the Chosin 10 Dec 1950, my unit departed at 1100 hours Christmas Eve 24 Dec 1950. We held back the Chinese until everyone else had left. Admittedly we were not ready for combat when we got to Korea but those of us who survived were well versed in the art of War when we left.

Response by 1SG James Kelly made Mar 31 at 2019 12:50 PM

2019-03-31T12:50:37-04:00

Yeah I like Marines too; used to teach them.
Master Gunner Instructor.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Apr 1 at 2019 1:05 PM

2019-04-01T13:05:53-04:00

I did not get a nice reception when I checked into Fort Sill. A screaming and angry Staff Sergeant gave us socks, underwear and T-shirts at Reception before we went to real Basic in September 1988. That first day if Basic my sleeping mat unraveled during the rush to get off the bus and race with all our gear to the pad. After breaking from the herd and getting my stuff I could do nothing right the rest of the day. Four drill sergeants rode my ass ALL DAY LONG. I was so bad I went on KP with another platoon I did not know who watched me come in. But I made friends and got support which was probably unexoected. But it was a very good reprieve. Things evened out. I even became squad leader, graduated, and had a FANTASTIC posting and career in a firing platoon.

Response by SPC Cesar Freytes made Apr 14 at 2019 9:46 PM

2019-04-14T21:46:11-04:00

I see you say this shit after you retired um from the Army. May I suggest you redo your PHD thesis.

Response by SPC Cesar Freytes made Apr 14 at 2019 10:12 PM

2019-04-14T22:12:43-04:00

The largest amphibious invasion in history was operation Overlord Who did it genius ?????? Hint not the marines, apples to orange's I see you retired Army and non combat affiliated MOS. My question why did you not join the Marines infantry or even the army infantry, your full of it and stop putting down your my people. You should not show yourself as SSG of the US ARMY you look embarrassed of that title

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 24 at 2019 6:38 PM

2019-04-24T18:38:09-04:00

I had to delete what I was originally going to say. I'll leave it at this: God help us.

Response by 1SG Edward Richards made May 7 at 2019 3:32 PM

2019-05-07T15:32:39-04:00

I do not know what training unit for Army you are talking about, According to you the marines are using old out dated mode of training from the 1950's. I worked with both Navy Seals, Marine Recon and other branches of our service. An we all agree we are one team period. I had a Marine Lt for a commander, I suggest you go back and get an update copy of FM 7-10.

Response by PFC(P) Corey Hannen made May 8 at 2019 10:55 AM

2019-05-08T10:55:23-04:00

I mean I agree with most of this Sergeant. I just don't agree with part about the Army calling us soldiers from the beginning. When I got to reception, everybody I knew was called Trainee "Fill In Name Here". They only called us soldiers after the Forge, even then, one of our Drill Sergeant's did not care that we were about to graduate, he still called us Trainees. I remember stepping off the bus at my company for basic training. As soon as that happened, there was lots of yelling and I honestly had no idea what I was doing. I can agree that Army reception is a lot easier than the Marine Corps reception.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made May 21 at 2019 9:47 AM

2019-05-21T09:47:37-04:00

That just goes to show that after Vietnam the Army got slowly and progressively laxed and passive. They even instituted co-ed Basic Training, Before that it was BCT. Way different than BT.

Response by LCpl Mike Bundock made May 21 at 2019 1:25 PM

2019-05-21T13:25:40-04:00

As a 70 year old Marine Corps veteran, I agree wholeheartedly with this article , Marine Corps Boot Camp is a life changing experience,I remember every second of it as if it just happened, it has made a difference in my life that can't be overlooked, once a Marine always a Marine ,.Thanks <>L/Cpl Mike Bundock USMC.

Response by Pvt Michael Todd made May 23 at 2019 8:29 AM

2019-05-23T08:29:01-04:00

Sounds like our sisters in the Army are feeling a little insecure these days.

Response by SFC Mark Klaers made Jun 14 at 2019 1:58 PM

2019-06-14T13:58:24-04:00

I went in when Harmony Church was still an "option". Upon my graduation, my two best friends showed up with my parents, both wearing their Class A's. John in the Coast Guard and Robert in his Marine "greens". After spending the day before graduation watching what we did, how it was done and how the drills performed, Robert said some hokey thing about how my DI's must've went to Paris Island as some sort of inter-service training thing or another. His other comment was that at least the Marines could afford decent lodging for their recruits.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2019 2:09 PM

2019-06-18T14:09:49-04:00

Another difference I have noticed between the Army and Marine Corps is the issuance of "badges". It kind of reminds me of being int he Boy Scouts (yes, I know the BSA were modeled after an Army-like structure). It strikes me as odd probably because it is different to me.

Response by SPC Janet Roush made Sep 23 at 2019 4:32 AM

2019-09-23T04:32:41-04:00

I agree with everything you said. I don't understand why the Army has gone so soft. It was starting down that path when I was in the Army in the 80's but nothing like it is now. It's a shame.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Jul 13 at 2020 11:57 AM

2020-07-13T11:57:25-04:00

Either I forgot to hit the respond button (unlikely) or my post was deleted as I was probably too "harsh" in my criticism and you couldn't "hack" it. Puzzling, given your presentation. Anyway, you are out of line. The Marines are first and foremost naval infantry and their basic training is structured along those lines. Army basic training is meant to establish a minimum physical fitness and discipline in the ranks as well as to familiarize all troops with basic rifle skills.

My basic training was straight out of "Apocalypse Now" and my AIT was diametrically different. Not that it was any less demanding, but it was certainly more supportive. Having experienced the 2 philosophies, I'll opt for training over indoctrination any day.

Response by SPC John Tacetta made Jul 13 at 2020 11:58 AM

2020-07-13T11:58:27-04:00

What's up with that trooper in front of the firing line? Is he Marine or Army?

Response by SSG Eric Blue made Jul 25 at 2020 4:29 PM

2020-07-25T16:29:34-04:00

While I agree with your research, the ONLY thing I disagree with is Army reception. And the ONLY reason for that is because when I came through Ft. Sill, there were a few prior-service Marines as my drill sergeants. I FRICKIN' LOVED IT! Reminded me of a slightly nicer version of the boot camp stories my grandfathers told me from Montford Point. And ALL of the drill sergeants I had in Bravo Battery, 1/40 Field Artillery were on the same page, playing the same tune, regardless of where they came from. I came through BCT in 2000. By 2002, I noticed a HUGE difference between those I came through with and those making their way into the Army. I may have been one of the last of a great era. Beyond that, amigo, well done! I really appreciate you sharing this with us!

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Jan 5 at 2024 10:52 PM

2024-01-05T22:52:03-05:00

As a former Army tank officer, I would put my crews against the Marine's any day. Do you know the strategic vision of the MC Berger has set in motion? I forgot, the Marines have no tanks now. Berger does not want the Marines to conduct large amphibious operations. Who is going to conduct them? The inferior army while the MC plays grab ass on ships and small islands as its mission is to protect the Navy with long range fires. What will happen in large wars? You expect the inferior Army to do all the heavy fighting because that's not the MC's mission anymore. So, there is some perspective for you.