Army: Young soldiers overestimate likely civilian pay. Are you transitioning soon? What are your civilian pay expectations?

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 15:30:22 -0500

Young soldiers aren't the only ones overestimating their market value in the civilian world. I know a few retired E-9's and O-6's wondering what the heck happened during transition and why they had to settle for something... different...

FORT KNOX, Ky. – About 140,000 departing soldiers received Army transition services in the past year, but many of them may have unrealistic expectations of what they can earn in the civilian sector, according to Walter Herd, director of the Soldier for Life-Transition Assistance Program.

“This year we are looking at 120,000 going through, and that is a mix of active and reserve soldiers,” said Herd of the program that used to be called ACAP, for the Army Career and Alumni Program. “More soldiers are getting more transition assistance, with well over 80 percent of the transitioning active-duty force meeting the career readiness standards for separation, which is a really positive development."

However, many of the departing soldiers are telling transition officials that their commanders and leaders are not giving them enough time to receive TAP services, and they are being rushed through the program just before they separate.

“We have consistently found that the soldiers who receive [TAP services] early, and spread them out, are much more successful than those who wait and have it crammed into a five-day session,” he said.

Soldiers profit most from TAP when they enroll in the program at least 12 months in advance of their separation, Herd said.

“When soldiers can’t begin their separation preparations early, for whatever reasons, we have a compressed five-day course they can take, but that really is for emergency situations.”

Lofty salary goals

The Army has conducted some analytics on the separation process over the past year, and one of the findings is that junior enlisted soldiers have an unrealistic expectation of what they can earn in the civilian sector once they leave service.

“We surveyed thousands of soldiers up and down the rank structure, and asked them to tell us what salary they received in the Army, and what they expect to get when they transition,” Herd said. "We found that the junior enlisted, the privates through sergeants E-5, were disproportionately high in their expectations, while senior NCOs and officers were far more realistic, and expected to receive salaries that are similar to what they earn in the Army.”

Younger soldiers often estimated their private-sector salaries could double or even triple what they pulled down in the Army, said Herd, a retired Special Forces colonel.

“What we’ve also found is that because of these high expectations, the junior enlisted are far more likely to be unemployed than their more senior counterparts,” he said. “That kind of makes sense when you look at their expectations: If a person thinks he or she is going to make three times their Army salary, then they are more likely to turn down jobs that don’t meet that expectation.”

As a result of those findings, Herd said, “we are trying to educate the force on what a realistic salary is given education, experience, background and location,” Herd said.

The Army’s assessment also found that about 60 percent of young soldiers plan to return to their hometown or region when they leave the Army.

“This means the vast majority of our transitioning soldiers have a pretty good idea where they are going to go when they transition, which allows them to better prepare for that transition and make connections,” Herd said. “Soldiers should stay in contact with their high school friends, neighbors, coaches and teachers because they are going to need them when they leave the Army.”

Herd said these type of networking connections are important, because they lead to high success rates in the civilian job market.

CSP 101

One TAP initiative that is growing in popularity and size is the Career Skills Program, which provides soldiers with opportunities for apprenticeship, internship, credentialing, on-the-job training and job shadowing while they are still in service.

To date the industries represented in CSP include automotive, welding, HVAC/R (heating, ventilation, air conditioning and refrigeration), truck driving, sprinkler fitting and fire suppression, solar energy, communications, human resources, information technology, industrial applications and manufacturing.

Since early this year, more than 1,000 soldiers have participated in nearly 100 training events at 12 U.S. installations

.

Nearly 400 soldiers are expected to participate in 16 events to be held at 12 locations in the U.S. and overseas during the first quarter of fiscal 2016. The host locations:

Forts Benning, Gordon and Stewart, Georgia
Forts Bliss and Hood, Texas
Joint Base Elmendorf-Richardson, Alaska
Fort Irwin, California
Fort Riley, Kansas
Fort Leonard Wood, Missouri
Fort Eustis, Virginia
Joint Base Lewis-McChord, Washington
Weisbaden, Germany

For details, interested soldiers should contact their local Soldier for Life-TAP center, which can be found on the program's website.

Herd said soldiers are authorized, with their commander’s permission, to participate in these events during their last six months in the Army.

Each one of the activities has its own participation rules, but if a soldier is at an installation where one of the activities is conducted, it is possible that the soldier’s full-time assignment during his final months in the Army will be attending daily training events or workshops.

Under another initiative, the Army has modified its soldier life cycle model, whether that life cycle be for three years or 30 years, to get soldiers to start planning for transition soon after they enter service.

“There are separate phases to the soldier life cycle, with the initial phase being the first year in uniform, which typically involves basic training, advanced individual training, and the first unit of assignment,” Herd said. “One of the things they should be doing at this time is developing a budget, that they can use throughout their career, and ultimately for transition.”

At this time soldiers also should start formulating their individual development plans which ultimately will graduate into their transition and lifelong goals and objectives, he said.

Next comes the service phase, which could be just a couple of years, or for a career soldier, 20 to 25 years. This is when soldiers should be building their resume and financial plans, and continue with their individual development and education.

“We also recommend that at about the 10-year point, career soldiers write their own personal resume,” Heard said.

“This not only will help them in counseling their younger soldiers on writing a resume, but get them thinking about what they want to do in their post-military life. We want soldiers to do this early in their career, not when they hit 19½ years of service,” he said.

The TAP is made up of about 700 counselors and staff at 75 locations worldwide. All Army counselors hold graduate degrees in counseling-related disciplines.

About 10,000 soldiers graduate from the program every month.

The network of TAP centers is complemented by a Fort Knox-based virtual counseling center that provides counseling services 24/7 and is used by about 2,000 soldiers each month, Herd said.

Soldiers can use the center for all TAP courses or for select components, with the remainder being provided by installation TAP centers.

Army: Young soldiers overestimate likely civilian pay

As soldiers get transition services and move to civilian jobs, they may overestimate how much they can expect to make.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 3:34 PM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 15:34:48 -0500

I am there now. You are looking at $12-17 an hour, unless you are some kind of special. As an infantryman, it pretty much sucks. My son was a 0151 and yet to top $14.00 and not working in his field.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 4:27 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:27:26 -0500

My civilian expectations is that I will find a job that earns a paycheck, where ever that may be. I fully understand that my skills may not always transfer to the civilian market. And if they do, the market may require certs that I may not have. One has to be Semper Gumby when crossing back to civilian life and work. What one gets used to and expects in the military may not be the same once that uniform comes off permanently.

Response by MSgt Curtis Ellis made Nov 3 at 2015 4:48 PM

MSgt Curtis Ellis — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:48:10 -0500

I recently looked at the qualifications for my current position prior to posting this and though the requirements have changed a few times (Retired 2008), I was surprised to learn that, though I am currently qualified for my position, if I were transitioning today in this same field, or stopped working temporarily and re-applied for this position, I would probably not get it... Scary thought... I consider myself lucky, fortunate and very blessed!

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Nov 3 at 2015 4:53 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 16:53:42 -0500

Long ago the Military was paid so little most were practically paupers. Now, Military is paid decent wages....and unfortunately, a lot of positions in the Military and the experience they learn or acquire are not needed in the civilian world, therefore many Military members who get out have a hard time finding a job that pays them the same as the Military.
I would recommend those who plan on getting out with no real civilian job experience to go back to school...get a degree and then seek employment....or apply to civil service and hope to get a job....or the can always go back into the service...or change services and get a different job...one that would be helpful on the outside.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 5:32 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 17:32:01 -0500

I plan to attend law school when I ETS, so I certainly hope to greatly exceed my current salary eventually. Since I will still be quite young when I leave the military, I expect to build an extremely successful career in law. I currently study logic, argumentation, American law, philosophy, and rhetoric in my spare time, so I anticipate that my aspirations are fairly realistic. (I also have already earned a Master's degree, so I have demonstrated a baseline aptitude for higher learning and truly white collar professions.)

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 5:44 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 17:44:08 -0500

This is not limited to young soldiers. I was often told I should be making more than what I was (as much as 3X). I became active in the professional group for my job (safety and health). Unless I was being lied to by others my salary was pretty much in line with others.

Many will tell you the grass is greener over there. But, it usually is not.

Response by Maj Chris Nelson made Nov 3 at 2015 7:09 PM

Maj Chris Nelson — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 19:09:30 -0500

I know that as a major with over 27 years (longevity), I will not make the same money on the civilian side as I do in the military. I have looked at the job market and what is a reasonable pay range, and between my retirement check and my civilian job paycheck (once I get hired as a nurse), I should break even or even come out ahead a little bit.... But I have also been looking at things very realistically and have been working on my civilianized resume for 2 years now.

Response by SPC(P) Jay Heenan made Nov 3 at 2015 9:08 PM

SPC(P) Jay Heenan — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:08:20 -0500

Of course we do, we are a pretty large group of entitled people. Not all of us, but it does seem that some of our ranks think we "deserve" something...

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 9:17 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:17:19 -0500

There's a thread trending right now that is a prime example of this.

Response by Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS made Nov 3 at 2015 9:28 PM

Sgt Aaron Kennedy, MS — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:28:59 -0500

We're "Skilled Labor" while we are in. At E4+, we make VERY good total compensation (Base Pay, Housing, Benefits aka intangibles).

When we get out, our brand of Skilled Labor has to be translated into the Civilian Equivalent. Before E7~ (Senior NCO), we are generally classified as "Supervisory" positions, which just doesn't translate the same across worlds. We have managerial duties, but supervisory roles.

Without having specific "Subject Matter Expertise" or a "high demand" skill set to go with that, we go back into the general labor pool with the rest of the 18-22 year old group without College Degrees. What makes (Cpl) Joe Public worth $40k when John Public has been meeting the requirements of the job for 30k?

That isn't to say that Joe wouldn't be better at it. But do you really need NFL Quarterbacks teaching Pop Warner football....and does it make sense to pay the bill for it.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 9:31 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:31:20 -0500

Absolutely. I believe they do sir. My goal was to work on the Space Program, and I knew that I needed a degree. I worked at Eckerd's Drug store for two months making a very small hourly wage until I landed a high paying chemical plant operator position. When I had my degree, I started working on the Space Shuttle program. Starting out with a degree, I was making 50% of what I had made as a chemical plant operator. When you leave the military, you are starting at the bottom of the pay scale, even if you have a degree. If you have experience, that may help with your starting pay. Before folks leave the military they need to decide what their career goal(s) are and then make sure they have the skills and education needed for that job.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 3 at 2015 9:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:32:11 -0500

That's exactly right Curt! The grass isn't always greener.

Response by Sgt Kelli Mays made Nov 3 at 2015 9:37 PM

Sgt Kelli Mays — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:37:26 -0500

Yes, I believe they do.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Nov 3 at 2015 9:39 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 21:39:02 -0500

MSgt Curtis Ellis Careful now, congress undoubtedly has a low level staffer checking RP. This thread might tell them that the military is paid more than could be earned in the 'world'. They will do their best to pay the military less w/ lower benefits - Oh! they are already working on that concept!

Response by MSgt Wayne Morris made Nov 3 at 2015 10:12 PM

MSgt Wayne Morris — Tue, 03 Nov 2015 22:12:12 -0500

As I have been retired for 20 years now and work for a major defense contractor let me add a few thoughts/facts. Yes, be prepared to settle for less than you would expect unless you have a high demand skill or background. Without a proven track record outside of the military while your experience is desired, you are still the newbee. Unless you are sliding into the civilian equivalent of your MOS/AFSC etc you are starting fresh and the pay is lower to start. Just as important as pay, inquire as to if the company has a written or formal progression plan for careers, many do not and as you are used to Uncle Sam laying it out for you in B&W you may find that no one can tell you what you need to do to get promoted or way just shoot you some general bla bla. Trust me when I say in the civilian world nepotism, good old boy networks play just as big a part as knowing your job and doing it well along with education and may be somewhat more. I too settled for less than I wanted but in the 20 years I have been with this company I have more than tripled my salary and didn't have to go in on a deer lease or join a specific church to do it.

Response by SFC Donald Neal made Nov 4 at 2015 12:55 AM

SFC Donald Neal — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 00:55:12 -0500

When I retired, my transition classes focused on scaring us into not leaving the Army. They dialed in on everyone to take the first job possible going out the door, which in retrospect is a disservice. After all that time going through the every paygrade above E-5 requires at least $100k civilian equivalent compensation, I honestly was lost at what I am worth as a civilian.

I ended up underselling myself with regard to salary expectations. I initially tried to find work at the base pay I had when I left ($45k/annual). Luckily my first post-Army employer knew that and took great care of me. I received 2 large raises, and 2 performance bonuses my first 18 months as a civilian employee. From there I have been lucky with finding opportunities to grow myself and offer more to employers.

I attribute the willingness to learn, never saying no, always helping out to get the job done, delivering excellence when others deliver the minimum, and creating solutions when others can't find options. These are things that the Army taught me and I continue doing just that now.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 1:10 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 01:10:15 -0500

I knew leading up to my deployment that I was transitioning out. To be sure, I did a 3 year reenlistment to get me through the deployment, but I immediately started planning my exit. Around the same time-frame as I 'earn my freedom', I should be finishing up my undergraduate degree. I have already begun building a vast network of contacts in the field I intend to pursue, and despite living at under $30k/year for my entire life I expect to have a job earning upwards of six figures within a year of getting out, with the combination of 9 years experience and a masters catered to the job I want.

One thing I will say, is that anyone can do anything they set their mind to. You have to have the dedication, determination and discipline to succeed, but if you have those things you can do anything. What people fail to do is plan for their future. They think that just having been in the military will get them the job they want. You must plan for transition, know your goals, set measures of effectiveness, and meet benchmarks in order to succeed. If you just wing it you are bound to be disappointed.

I personally have a self-evaluation done on where my weaknesses are on the core values desired from the employer I want to work for; I have 2 years to get myself job ready. That self evaluation sits over my computer desk, where I am completing my meticulously scheduled online classes to build on those weaknesses and remind me every day what I am working towards. If you do not have that level of determination, you will be beat out by those who do.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 4 at 2015 12:44 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 12:44:54 -0500

Just to put things in perspective. An E-6 with 10 years makes $48,000/year without including Tricare. The median household income for the US is $49,000. I was wrong, the E-6 would make $56,640/year.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 1:37 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 13:37:04 -0500

Unfortunately I have to say this is true. I know a few 88m that joined hoping to get a CDL after the service only to realize they still have to take the test and driving classes and their "road time" wasn't accepted by most employers. The only MOS I know that has had no issue in transition has been aviation and 25b, although they still had to spend months going through certifications and whatnot.

Response by MSG Rick Rice made Nov 4 at 2015 2:33 PM

MSG Rick Rice — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 14:33:22 -0500

Best to get a totally new "civilian MOS" once you leave the military, (unless you go into an action guy role as Contractor). The technical degrees in computer and engineering are hiring at great pay. A good degree from a State University or technical school will get you a job.

Response by SSG Audwin Scott made Nov 4 at 2015 3:38 PM

SSG Audwin Scott — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 15:38:12 -0500

What really happens is, a lot of our Military Jobs (Mos) don't line up with the civilian sector, so many have to humble themselves and take positions lower then they were accustomed to in the military. Those that are fortunate enough to receive a disability or a retirement check want have it as bad as someone that just gets out of the service with nothing.

Response by SGT Jeremy Reese made Nov 4 at 2015 6:00 PM

SGT Jeremy Reese — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 18:00:34 -0500

If they want 3x+ what they are earning, have them look into government contracting overseas. The current US market stateside just isn't capable of supporting those wages today. Maybe 7-9 years ago it was a possibility, however the market hasn't really expanded since the 2007-8 collapse. However there are still positions with that sort of pay available overseas for those willing to go.

Response by SGT Christopher Remy made Nov 4 at 2015 8:25 PM

SGT Christopher Remy — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 20:25:06 -0500

I started a graduate program in information security about 18 months before ETS. A simple A+ certification, well-written resume, and practiced pitch got me a job 30 minutes into a fair, starting at $20/hour (probationary). I have no formal experience in this field.

A month later (about now) they're grooming me for low-level management and a raise. The Army gives you great work skills that are applicable anywhere. You just have to plan ahead and be aggressive about taking the initiative and humbling yourself (do what your peers aren't willing to do.) Making three times as as much starting out may be unrealistic, but it's not impossible to work your way towards it with a quickness.

Response by MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 4 at 2015 9:02 PM

MAJ(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 04 Nov 2015 21:02:45 -0500

I would agree that many of us in uniform have slightly unrealistic expectations when it comes to work on the outside. I look at some of my colleagues in my MBA program who have just separated at the same grade I am currently who will not make much more in "take home pay" their first jobs out of Grad School than they did as Captains. They might make less.

In reality, those transitioning and going to college, especially for advanced degrees might be in a better spot if they use the GI Bill. Most reputable "brick and mortar" colleges and universities have large staffs that go out of their way to help student find meaningful employment. It is great for the institutions brand. I'd assume most of the reputable online schools do as well. If you can use the GI bill to pay for it, you are already in head of your peers because you won't be taking on large amounts of debt. You don't have to jump at the first offer just so that you can service your student debt.

Another excellent point brought up in the article was that networks are important. If you know you are going to go back home to work, you do really need to leverage the network you have. If you let it go idle, you will lose a very important resource for finding a career.

Response by SMSgt Thor Merich made Nov 5 at 2015 8:29 PM

SMSgt Thor Merich — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 20:29:55 -0500

Very true. I know quite a few MSgt's who got out without a plan and ended up working fairly menial jobs compared to what they were doing in the Air Force. The biggest issue is that too many folks get out without a solid plan of what they will do after the military.

Pay also varies depending on where you a locating to. In Southern California, starting pay for a police officer is roughly 75k, while in can be as low as 30K in other parts of the country.

Its incumbent on military leaders to tell their troops the truth about getting out. Its a double edged sword, there are many good reasons to get out and just as many reasons to stay in. Being prepared is the key to successfully making the transition.

Response by 1stSgt John Sims made Nov 5 at 2015 10:38 PM

1stSgt John Sims — Thu, 05 Nov 2015 22:38:00 -0500

Transition has many levels, remember we were or are in an organization that explains every step you need to take. When your physical is scheduled, when to see the dentist, how and when to prepare for promotion, how and when to change duty station, and the list goes on. Many veterans struggle with simply not knowing what the next step is, in any aspect of life. To transition, be prepared to take full control of your life. Transition programs are ok but they still enable the veteran to wait for someone else to tell them the next step. I have seen many veterans struggle with a simple task like looking for a family doctor.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2015 8:32 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 08:32:35 -0500

I agree 100%. And this is not limited to just lower enlisted. You might not realize it but the Military compensation package is its biggest selling point. An AD CPT probably makes more money than 90% of people with MBAs.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 6 at 2015 9:49 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 06 Nov 2015 09:49:46 -0500

I have been hearing lately a lot of junior personnel (across branches) wondering about getting out of the military after their first tour. My advice is if you have any of the following:

1) Bachelor's or Master's Degree;
2) Accredited Apprenticeship certifications;
3) Accredited Credentials or Certifications.

Then you may have a fighting chance at getting a comfortable job after military life. If you don't, well my suggestion would be to get as many as you can before you get out because military experience alone (especially at the junior ranks) is not enough now a days. The struggle is real, don't let the elusive "them" or "they" tell you otherwise.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Nov 7 at 2015 1:05 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Sat, 07 Nov 2015 01:05:46 -0500

To be frank, unless you get into a Government Job or find employment related to your specific MOS In my experience blue collar civilian companies/ bosses/ co-workers ( which I dealt with) could care less about your military service. Most will view you as a threat to their job security, especially if you have any initiative or morals

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Nov 8 at 2015 12:45 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 12:45:40 -0500

I think corporations place some senior military personnel into Operations.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 8 at 2015 6:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 18:29:17 -0500

Many people don't realize how well the military pays. Consider that in the San Francisco bay area BAH alone averages about 3000 dollars depending on rank and size of family. Plus its tax free along with BAS and other allowances. Many people have jobs that have equal or less take-home than that. At my rank of LTC, if I were active duty in the bay area, I would get about $150.000/year. How many jobs can start at that?

Response by 1SG Nick Baker made Nov 8 at 2015 9:44 PM

1SG Nick Baker — Sun, 08 Nov 2015 21:44:37 -0500

I think the misunderstanding in comparing pay and benefits in the military to a dollar amount in the job market. An E1 less than 2 years base pay is $1,547. Divide 1547 by 110 hours and that equals $14; a used an 11 hour day. A single soldier has housing, food, medical, and 30 days vacation. Even living at home, at the same pay rate, you would have to pay medical and and might get 5 days paid vacation after working a year.
If we take inflation into account, are todays soldiers better paid than 20 to 30 years ago?