Article 15s, Reduction in rank, What is your take, were you involved in reductions?

2014-01-07T23:41:32-05:00

From a personal standpoint I had a roommate who was busted from Sergeant to Airman First Class.  There were a few reasons for this Article 15 but his personal hygiene and the way his locked smelled,   made the Squadron Commander irate. After he lost his rank I felt quite odd.   In one sense very sad for him because loss of any kind is not pleasant for anyone.   I could have imagined his embarrassment and shame.   His bust was temporary but left an odd sensation with me. Have you ever had to report a troop that resulted in their bust and what were your feelings?

Response by CW2 Joseph Evans made Jan 7 at 2014 11:49 PM

2014-01-07T23:49:11-05:00

I was in a command that resulted in 4 GOMARs for the BDE CDR, a record number of GOMARs for officers in the BDE and Art 15s and UCMJ across the BDE. It is as frustrating watching a unit that had acquired honors on its previous deployment fall so fast and so hard. Watching people fall because of ego, and mistakes in a zero tolerance climate that was hypocritical in its execution.

Response by MAJ Bryan Zeski made Jan 8 at 2014 12:21 AM

2014-01-08T00:21:00-05:00

I'm sure all Commanders have to bust people down some times. It sucks. For everyone involved. By the time it gets to the Commanders desk, the Soldier has generally "learned their lesson," but the punishment must still go on.

When a Commander holds the future of a Soldier in their hands, it is a very solemn time.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 28 at 2014 4:33 PM

2014-03-28T16:33:00-04:00

I have never had to recommend anyone but in my job I am the one that writes the Article 15's and does the preparation for the Courts-Martials. Most of the time the individual is deserving but there have been a few rare occasions that I have found myself questioning whether or not corrective training would have been a better alternative. I know that these particular documents keep me in business but sometimes I feel like the leadership has become to dependent on the easy fix and does not necessarily make the right decision in regards to handing these out. A lot of situations can be remedied with a proper corrective training plan. This way the individual learns their lesson (hopefully) but isn't dissuaded from trying to better himself in the future because he feels his unit just doesn't care about him.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 7 at 2014 12:35 AM

2014-06-07T00:35:56-04:00

Yes and it was necessary. One of the biggest problems the Air Force has is the lack of supervisors holding people accoundable. Why do we feel guilty when holding someone to the standards they volunteered to uphold?

When I see someone about to become and NCO I ask are they ready to be an supervisor. The SKT and PFE do not answer this question.

We should also ask "Does this person still deserve to supervise?"

If an NCO does not meet the requirements of the AFI 36-2618 then they need to be reduced to their operating level to be shown the door.

Last thought...I wonder how many new SSgts with 3-4 years TIS know what AFI 36-2618 is?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 5:56 AM

2014-08-04T05:56:29-04:00

There are too many other ways out there to fix problems besides recommending UCMJ and involving the Commander. My view, if a punishment makes it to my desk I will at a minimum suspend a reduction for 180 days.

Response by SPC Kara Sport made Aug 4 at 2014 2:54 PM

2014-08-04T14:54:04-04:00

Anytime I saw the Art 15 that involved losing rank, the servicemember was given the chance to change the behaviors but chose not to. Was it harsh? It isn't easy seeing someone that has a family depend on that paycheck lose much needed money, BUT at the same time, there has to be consequences to thier actions and they should of thought about that before they acted stupid.

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made Aug 4 at 2014 4:17 PM

2014-08-04T16:17:29-04:00

I have never had to give one myself but have witnessed or been the investigating officer on a few ranging from EO and property/inventory to a death. The only ones I saw go straight into effect were ones involving complete dereliction of duty. In one case an E-5 to E-4 because of DUI involving passengers in the car and one in Korea, I believe a 6 to a 5 for a second offence involving black marketing. The remainder either fell by the wayside for lack of substantial evidence or were suspended, the SM in question rehabilitated themselves and the action was dropped.

Response by SGT Mitch McKinley made Aug 4 at 2014 4:29 PM

2014-08-04T16:29:05-04:00

The biggest issue with the A15 process is this: even if you believe that you have substantial evidence weighing in your favor as the accused...there really isn't anyone in your corner. I am living proof of this.

I won't bore anyone with the details...but both JAG and the Group commander said that I should never have been reduced based on the evidence presented.
The Group Commander was the appeal authority. He told me he had every reason to overturn or suspend the A15 (field grade), but only one to uphold it. And he chose to uphold the BN commanders decision because what message would it send to the Group if he didn't trust his BN commanders to do what was right and in the best interest of those in their command, by overturning their administrative actions.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 4 at 2014 7:46 PM

2014-08-04T19:46:52-04:00

Have seen a couple been involved in one. But hopefully NCO's and SNCO's are trying to correct the problem before it needs to advance any further. Instead of taking an easy way out and handing off the problem. Because they don't feel the need to deal with it. Many junior enlisted just need the proper guiding hand to lead them down the proper path. And if your not ready to guide and develop young minds your not ready to be an NCO.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 6 at 2014 8:26 PM

2014-08-06T20:26:34-04:00

Way back in the early years of my career I had a squadron commander who was UCMJ happy. It seemed he was quick to resort to Article 15's regardless of the offense or the circumstances. The sad part was we had a First Sergeant who lacked any spine to even attempt to reign in this Lieutenant Colonel. Eventually several Congressional and IG complaints brought about a positive change but not until the morale of the squadron was destroyed. The squadron commander was given the option and strongly encouraged to retire. He was transferred out and retired 30 days after that.

What I learned as a young Airman then was that there are better ways to affect change in someone's behavior. I also learned that Leaders need to know those under their charge and know the signs of when someone is acting out and why. Punishment doesn't always create positive change -it more than not reinforces negative attitudes.

Response by SGM Billy Herrington made Dec 2 at 2018 10:49 PM

2018-12-02T22:49:23-05:00

I found out the fastest way to make SGT is to get busted from SSG. Attempting to bring home an AK from Iraq is frowned upon. Highly.
I certainly learned my lesson and use my experience as a teaching point for junior Soldiers.

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Sep 13 at 2019 5:26 PM

2019-09-13T17:26:51-04:00

My own personal policy on recommending UCMJ action had two co-equal circumstances that forced me to make the decision to recommend.
1. Blatant and/ or public disregard of regulation and / or disrespect that cannot be "pulled aside" because of the Soldier's own intentional actions.
2. Blatant and continued inability to conform to regulations AFTER extensive attempts by me or a combination of the leadership team to rehabilitate the Soldier.
In either of these circumstances, the leader has to remember that the Soldier did it to themselves. It's never "easy" even if the decision is set in stone by the Soldier's actions.
In the first circumstance the unit's discipline would erode if the Soldier presented disrespect and and insubordination without consequence where other Soldiers would witness it. If it was anywhere near possible I tried handling this with corrective training, but a blatant "F You!" in formation followed by refusal to follow orders to check the attitude is hard to ignore. As is, a Soldier wearing an oversized coat to the PX, picking up a random item, waving at the camera, putting it in the jacket, and walking outside and waiting for the MPs to arrest him because he couldn't think of any other way to get kicked out.
The second situation meant every effort was expended and the Soldier still persisted on a path of personal professional disregard.
I never liked that part of the profession, but it was part of leadership.