Articulation and proper writing/grammar

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 07:24:38 -0400

Is it just me, or does it drive anyone else crazy to see individuals (on here included) who have not simply educated themselves on spelling and grammar? I am mostly and especially referring to Senior NCOs who, in theory, should have years of experience utilizing the Army Writing Style and articulation when constructing evaluation reports, awards, etc. If someone cannot execute something as simple as proper spelling and grammar this late in life, my perception is that they just don't care and that individual immediately loses credibility. Just my opinion, what is yours?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 7:40 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 07:40:17 -0400

It's a pet peeve of mine as well. I think that we'd do well in the Army to give better blocks of instruction on the Army Writing Style in AIT, NCOES, and Sergeants Time Training.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 9:07 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 09:07:21 -0400

I'll tell you I hate bad writing and poorly constructed papers. My Co and 1SG give me their written reports before they send them higher because I'm fairly good at it.

But when it comes to posting on here, which I frequently do from my phone it's harder for me to catch my mistakes. It is much easier for me when I can hold the document in my hand and go at it with the red pen. If I'm on my phone or just typing on my computer I'll screw up and I may over look things without realizing it.

But I agree that as senior NCOs we should be able to write and if we can't it's past high time to use that TA for a basic writing class. The ability to write goes beyond the Army and into civilian life. People you have never met WILL judge you based upon things they read that you wrote. I'd prefer that someone doesn't think I'm uneducated based on my writing skills.

Response by SFC Stephen Carden made May 8 at 2014 9:33 AM

SFC Stephen Carden — Thu, 08 May 2014 09:33:12 -0400

This topic is near and dear to my heart. I have always prided myself on my ability to write well and use proper spelling, grammar, and punctuation. It really doesn't require much extra effort to do. There is nothing worse than receiving a memo, award, NCOER, or letter from a senior NCO or officer full of errors. To me, it is an indicator of laziness, indifference, or possibly a lack of intelligence. I have a hard time respecting and following a superior that displays any of these three traits. We are not writing doctoral theses on a daily basis in the Army, but we are talking about basic grammar and spelling errors here that we learned about in grade school. If you are a leader in the Army, take the time to write correctly and consider it a part of your professional development.

Response by MAJ Dallas D. made May 8 at 2014 9:37 AM

MAJ Dallas D. — Thu, 08 May 2014 09:37:39 -0400

Funny I posted a survey just the other day about using certain words correctly. SSG(P) Allen I can only say that I have seen it get so much better than when I joined in 1988. There is always room for improvement but I believe it is much better than it used to be.

Response by SSG V. Michelle Woods made May 8 at 2014 10:01 AM

SSG V. Michelle Woods — Thu, 08 May 2014 10:01:31 -0400

When my former NCOIC handed me my very first counseling statement I took my red pen, edited the 4856 and handed it back to him without thinking anything of it.
My OIC and NCOIC started laughing and I asked "what's so funny?"

He said "what kind of *sshole edits their own counseling statement and then hands it back for corrections?!"

Since I am a photojournalist and served as the primary editor for our shop's articles, I assumed he wanted me to edit it lol.
It was pretty funny but the point is don't hand me some jacked up counseling!

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 8 at 2014 10:23 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Thu, 08 May 2014 10:23:18 -0400

On a related note, I was writing a letter a a few years back(cursive of course) when a Soldier of mine came up behind me and asked "what language is that?". He wasn't kidding. Apparently our school system has REALLY de-emphasized writing and grammar.

Response by SSgt Gregory Guina made May 8 at 2014 10:56 AM

SSgt Gregory Guina — Thu, 08 May 2014 10:56:18 -0400

SSG Allen it is the little things that make you stand out. I konw that when I read an ill drafted email from senior leadership if I do not know the individual personally I automatically get a bad taste inmy mouth for them. I can understand the occassional misspelling but the use of a wrong word bugs the crap out of me.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 4:49 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 16:49:01 -0400

I thought the same thing in college. It amazed me how, after four years of writing 20+ page papers, Seniors still couldn't tell the difference between "their", "there", and "they're."

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 4:59 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 16:59:58 -0400

I can tell a lot by a person just by their (there) use of too, and to. Another one that bothers me is when people say - "I would prefer this more THEN this".

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 5:23 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 17:23:11 -0400

Does the NCOer violate any grammar rules when writing bullets?
I don't take offense to any who corrects me. Im usually mad at myself because most of the corrections Im corrected on is due to me rushing, typing fast and not going back to proofread my work.
I have met leaders in the NCO ranks who struggle to read. Would that drive you crazy also if that person was your rater?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2014 11:42 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 May 2014 23:42:58 -0400

A lot of people are commenting that the Army should adjust training models to accommodate reading/writing/comprehension. I value your opinions and appreciate your feedback but completely disagree. All branches require a certain level of composition and comprehension skill as entry criteria. That said, an individual's reading, writing and speaking skills are also an individual responsibility. The Army has it's hands full with doctrine and training Soldier skills. It is ridiculous to suggest the Army should also teach core subjects to Soldiers who may not have capitalized on their own education prior to serving. Bottom line is, you know if you suck at spelling, grammar, punctuation, reading, etc. It is on you to take the steps toward self-improvement, and frankly I would be unsatisfied with a leader who knew they had shortfalls but remained indifferent towards a remedy. Like I said earlier, as a matter of self expression it comes down to how how prefer others to perceive you. What are your thoughts about someone who doesn't really care that the perception of them isn't very high? Is that someone with whom you would choose association? I know for me I want others to always see the best I have to offer, and also wish to associate with others who feel the same. It is a sense of pride that people know I give a crap what my product looks like.

Response by SSG Robert Burns made May 9 at 2014 12:06 AM

SSG Robert Burns — Fri, 09 May 2014 00:06:41 -0400

It bothers me that your title lacks punctuation and is an incomplete sentence. I'm going to go snap a carrot in half.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 1:13 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 01:13:54 -0400

i'm bad with grammar and spelling but knowing that, i double and sometimes triple check myself. google and word is my friend

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 11:45 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 11:45:14 -0400

Hesitant to join this one, as I know my grammar needs work. What I hate are those individuals who feel compelled to spell out an accent or slurred speech. I do not know what this gains them other than being ignored. You should not be able to tell where someone was raised by their typing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 1:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 13:13:04 -0400

Army writing is becoming a big issue. In NCOES you are now required to pass written examination in the form of essays and papers. If you cannot get your point across via written correspondence the army doesn't have room to advance you anymore.

Response by PO1 William "Chip" Nagel made May 9 at 2014 3:19 PM

PO1 William "Chip" Nagel — Fri, 09 May 2014 15:19:51 -0400

I concur! I was ever so Grateful to have taken Telecommunications Managers Course, which was basically a College Level English Course on Writing Government and Military Reports.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 9:41 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 21:41:22 -0400

SSG Allen,

It used to bother me a little. Then I served under an outstanding, smart senior NCO who doesn't have the best writing skills, and I realized that I can't really judge a person based on his grammar and spelling.

Some people just don't have a knack for remembering rules of grammar, so I don't hold that against the individual. I can't climb a rope or get past the belly-over on an obstacle course, but it doesn't mean that I don't care or have less credibility.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2014 11:53 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 09 May 2014 23:53:06 -0400

Yesterday, while I was reviewing medal citations for today's commander's call, I found a handful of grammatical, spelling, and punctuation errors. I was just shaking my head. How did they get approval like that. That paragraph is their permanent record, and it looks like [insert expletive here].
I just wrote in corrections to make sense of it and delivered it with proper grammar and diction.

Response by MCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 1:14 AM

MCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 May 2014 01:14:34 -0400

When I was in the Army in Korea in 1986/87, my section sergeant(a Staff Sergeant) was functionally illiterate - I'm not kidding. When he did monthly counseling, he made me (a college boy), sit outside the room as his pulled everyone in and would yell, "Mokotoya (he never could pronounce my name), how you spell 'Motivation'?" "Macaroni, how you spell 'Initiative'?" and so on...

After about six months, I got tired of it - and started giving him bad info: "Modivashun," "Enishativ"...

The second month of doing this, the Platoon Sergeant and Section Sergeant came to me to say that Top wanted to speak with me. The SecSGT was purple with rage.

Top asked if I had spelled the words used on the counseling sheets - and I took responsibility. When the First Sergeant asked WHY I had done it, I told him that I was sick of making someone incompetent look good, and if he was unable to read or write, our OPORDERS were sure to be jacked up and would get people killed.

The 1SG and PSG yelled at me like a red-headed step-child for about ten minutes for publicly humiliating a Staff Sergeant, then told me to go stand at Parade Rest in front of the Captain's Office door.

After ten minutes, they both came up behind me and whispered in my ears that I should have told the PSG - and that the SSG was history... and then they asked if I wanted the job as Team Leader as the present Team Leader was getting promoted (in position).

That SSG was never seen again.

As soon as I find it - I'll post a redacted award write-up that was written by a Coast Guard E-7. It will make your eyes bleed.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2014 1:35 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 May 2014 01:35:23 -0400

I ran a spell Czech on this peace before I submitted it, sew it must be ere free. Know won kneads two learn grandma and spelling becaause wee all no how too type and trust Microsoft Word instead of Websters.

Writing used to take a level of time investment. Now it takes a couple of thumbs. Technology and Twitter have altered the course of communication, arguably, not for the better.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made May 10 at 2014 11:02 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Sat, 10 May 2014 11:02:55 -0400

As a writer, it bothers me a great deal... I sometimes find myself muttering, "Syntax... Learn what that means!" when I read most anything on line.
As to the spelling, I am not so picky, really. Given the way that many computers will insert wording, or auto-correct with a word that in no way belongs in that sentence, who am I to judge?
Lastly, I am Dyslexic, and it took me three years to understand the written word, and I still have problems with spelling, so again... who am I to judge?

Response by CPT Marc Serrá made May 10 at 2014 12:38 PM

CPT Marc Serrá — Sat, 10 May 2014 12:38:21 -0400

Let's not forget that this also applies to speaking.

Using bad grammar and misusing words out loud can cause a loss of respect from those who know better.

Response by CMDCM Gene Treants made May 10 at 2014 9:11 PM

CMDCM Gene Treants — Sat, 10 May 2014 21:11:19 -0400

My first few evaluations in the Navy were seriously messed up, but I thought I just did not understand the Navy way of writing and doing things. When I questioned a few of the words and phrases, I was told to just "sign the damn thing and not make waves." So I did and did not ask questions for a while, after all the evals were very good as far as marks went. When I began writing evals, they were clear,concise, and all spelling was correct. Later on, I usually had the member write the first draft of their own evaluation.

It was amazing to me when I got to be senior enough to start reading serious reports by officers. Academy grads and other college grads seemed to have no real grasp of how to write in English. Grammar, phrasing and even spelling seemed to be beyond their grasp. Senior Officers laughed at the JOs because of their lack of proper usage, but would not offer to correct the obvious let alone subtle errors. As a Chief, I took it upon myself to redline and return reports for correction and action to the JIs and they actually began to improve their work.

Feedback is important and must be given. DO not just correct and pass on crap. Send it back to the originator for correction and further action. he/she may actually learn and thank you for the work you put in.

Response by SGT Craig Northacker made May 11 at 2014 10:40 PM

SGT Craig Northacker — Sun, 11 May 2014 22:40:03 -0400

We had people in who had to make their mark - they were completely illiterate.

Response by SSG Tim Everett made Dec 1 at 2014 9:25 AM

SSG Tim Everett — Mon, 01 Dec 2014 09:25:09 -0500

I have no issues correcting someone's spelling or grammar, whether online or in real life. Education is nothing to be ashamed of, and a lack of education whether willful and deliberate or otherwise (laziness?) is abhorrent to me. We need to stop acting like we're shortening things down because we're limited to 140 characters or whatever Twitter's limit is. Life is not a text message.

Response by LTC Stephen C. made Dec 2 at 2014 11:21 AM

LTC Stephen C. — Tue, 02 Dec 2014 11:21:56 -0500

SFC Private RallyPoint Member, in my opinion, it's very important. RP even has an edit feature that allows you to correct errors that you may see after you've responded.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 1 at 2015 11:42 PM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 23:42:56 -0500

I know sometimes in the middle of a passionate expression of thought some may not stop to be attentive to grammer or punctuation. Depends on the personality type I guess. Personally, people who don't know geography erk me more.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Feb 1 at 2015 11:46 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Sun, 01 Feb 2015 23:46:35 -0500

I try to proof read everything I write so hopefully making sense to what I want to say. This is just "attention to detail". If we are slackers in this, then what else are we slackers in?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 2 at 2015 2:24 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 02:24:06 -0500

Who needs good grammar when they have a 300 on their APFT? SSG Allen, haven't you heard that having a 300 on one's APFT trumps everything else it requires to be a good Soldier/leader...........ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!

Response by SFC Collin McMillion made Feb 2 at 2015 3:09 AM

SFC Collin McMillion — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 03:09:21 -0500

I have known some very educated people who could not cross the road without help, and I know and have known a great many, that while maybe not up to your educational standards were great men and women and great leaders. I suppose those who do not meet a few of of your standards should just shut up and never express their opinions. There are over 230,000 members here, some never had the means to a good education, or had other problems that limited them from meeting your standards. About all states have the practice of letting you takke an oral driving test if preferred over a written one, immigrants can
chose oral exams over written ones just as long as they know the basic language skills. Does this make these people worse drivers or citizens than you? I can't and won't vote you down because I think I see the point you are trying to make, but I also believe you have insulted a number of very good people.
P.S. I never had the time to worry about grammer or to write a command while under fire.

Response by SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA made Feb 2 at 2015 3:45 AM

SGT Steven Eugene Kuhn MBA — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 03:45:17 -0500

I must admit that I have a problem with this...meaning "I am part of the problem". Although I have no difficulty articulating myself, my spelling is getting worse and worse and a bit of letter switch has slipped into my writing as well.

I have lived in 9 countries, I speak, read and write German like a German, (even wrote a Best Seller in Germany) and I speak a fair amount of Hungarian as well as a bit of Turkish and French...I have been in Europe speaking these languages for the past 22 years as a civilian (after ETS, got a European out).

The fact that I am always learning new languages may have something to do with the spelling problems, things I used to know are now difficult for me like the "e before i" and such things, as if I am regressing.

I apologize for spelling mistakes, even spell check does not always catch them, but I do my best to spell everything correct. For important matters I send my writings to my Brother in the US to proof read.

For me, in the end, my intent is important, not caring is never the issue with me!

Steady on,
Steven

Response by SPC Lukas Jones made Feb 2 at 2015 3:49 AM

SPC Lukas Jones — Mon, 02 Feb 2015 03:49:58 -0500

Weighing in for the enlisted ranks: I have seen a few NCOERs or Recomendations for Award with typos and wrong tense. As I have a unique role in my unit, I have had to proof read quite a few documents and return them like book reports covered in red ink. I do feel that if a soldier, particularly a leader, is weak in that skill; it is upon him or her to strengthen that weakness. I have offered my services to a few who have greatly benefited from such services.

(And yes, I realize this comment is written in a passive writing style)

Response by SGT Kristin Wiley made Feb 12 at 2015 1:34 PM

SGT Kristin Wiley — Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:34:42 -0500

Late to this discussion, but yes it is bothersome. I had an E-7 at my last command that had the literacy skills of a 2nd grader. It took a lot of patience to not grab her keyboard and ask her what she wanted to type. Thankfully, the Army is aware of this issue and has proposed changes for improvement.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/enlisted/2015/02/08/army-nco-2020-projects-new-writing-test-leader-course/22799669/

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 18 at 2015 10:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Mar 2015 10:27:06 -0400

Proper writing and grammar is another means to present professionalism. Quite honestly, even when I text I nvr use tingz lik dis. Dis kinda wrytin iz 4 teen gurlz, nt 4 adultz.

When I get emails or anything of the sort with "Here u go," maybe I am going overboard with assuming this, I think to myself this is a lazy, unprofessional excuse for a leader. I am not expecting a sonnet, but add the two necessary letters. Use proper English, please?

The worst is online college courses.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jul 17 at 2015 9:41 AM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:41:10 -0400

I think it's time to reread this thread. I've lately seen many posts with not too proper grammar and spelling. It doesn't matter if we are retired or out, as SNCOs and leaders we need to set the example of proof reading what we post. Not only does it make reading a little more difficult, but hey, if it's worth writing about, then it's worth writing it correctly.

Response by SSgt Charles Edwards made Jul 17 at 2015 9:58 AM

SSgt Charles Edwards — Fri, 17 Jul 2015 09:58:07 -0400

Hell, I can't even text without using proper grammar, spelling, and punctuation.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 16 at 2016 3:29 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 15:29:52 -0500

I am more concerned about effective communication. In a social media environment, spelling and grammar are lower on my priority level than actual work product. In social media, spelling and grammar is important only to the extent that one's message is properly transmitted and received. We should not stifle ideas based on a grammar bias.

At work... red pens help develop one's ability to convey presence as well as messages.

Response by CW5 Jim Steddum made Jan 16 at 2016 4:20 PM

CW5 Jim Steddum — Sat, 16 Jan 2016 16:20:07 -0500

http://damnbored.tv/southern-gentleman-accent-offensive-response-perfect/

Southern Gentleman Was Told his Accent Was “Offensive”. His Response is PERFECT!

How this guy can be called unintelligent is hard to figure. He’s actually very articulate and his thoughts come across strong yet maintain a witty edge

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 17 at 2016 3:53 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Jan 2016 15:53:44 -0500

I've seen some pretty rough emails from CSM's that were nothing short of embarrassing. I feel your pain. Should it really bother us? Is the message so getting across? I suppose it is, but it seems to encourage a pretty low standard that doesn't quite get along with trying to foster what professionalism should look like.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Feb 16 at 2016 4:21 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Tue, 16 Feb 2016 16:21:43 -0500

You do know that wounded veterans such as myself (TBI and PTSD) often write here on RP as a way of recovery, perhaps you should why do we/I have "spelling and grammar" problems. I was Civil Affairs Special Ops with an IQ of plus 134, but not any more, painful reality.