As a PSGT, how do I handle a situation if one of my NCOs thinks a soldier needing a shaving profile needs to get out of the Army?

2020-04-29T16:40:33-04:00

Hello everyone I just want opinions on this situation. So today at work I had an Soldier (PFC) come into my office and say he needed to talk to me in private, so of course I stepped aside with him and asked him what was wrong, so this Soldier told me that his squad leader which is an E-5 told him that “ Soldiers that has an shaving profile/ needs a shaving profile doesn’t need to be in the Army/ needs to get out of the army” And yes this Soldier does have a shaving profile, so I told the Soldier I was going to handle the situation. (This is the 2nd time the NCO has said this by the way but I wasn’t in the company when it happened) So later that day I pulled the NCO aside and asked him did he say what the Soldier told me he replied with “ yes I did say it and that is how I feel” I told the nco not to say it again and that he can’t be saying things like that. Both of them are African Americans (just throwing that in before anyone questions it) so I want to know did I handle the situation correctly? Is it EO? And if this happens again how should I handle it ?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 4:43 PM

2020-04-29T16:43:46-04:00

I would have done the same thing. I also would have come armed with the regs and/or medical info about shaving profiles or had the young NCO do the research and get back with me to report the findings

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 4:50 PM

2020-04-29T16:50:48-04:00

Unfortunately, shaving profiles or individuals with one are not considered a protected category. A lot of the military in general disapproves of shaving profiles. If the NCO in question has a belief and that's how he feels, you cant really do anything besides tell him to be more professional about it.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 5:12 PM

2020-04-29T17:12:51-04:00

I think you handled it well.
I am not a fan of shaving profiles but that's because it is so readily exploited by Soldiers and any correcting is typically met with EO complaints and founded or unfounded - EO complaints will ruin you.
I've seen plenty of people with shaving profiles have all kinds of styling and blatant disregard for the fact that it's a medical condition with prescribed treatment from the provider (length, how often to trim, what portion of face, etc). I think it is these problems that cause reactions such as what your E5 had. The profiles need to be enforced better (Army wide), as well as the NCO shut his face for his remarks.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 5:16 PM

2020-04-29T17:16:18-04:00

IMHO, you did right SFC Private RallyPoint Member. All that young NCO is doing with those statements is creating hostility and toxic environments. And if they continue with those comments/statements....fire them. At least, that is what I'd do.

Response by SFC Quinn Chastant made Apr 29 at 2020 5:21 PM

2020-04-29T17:21:31-04:00

Personal Opinions can not replace policy. If the young soldier has a shaving profile due to a medical condition just ask three pertinent questions. 1) Is the profile current and in effect until a specific end date. 2) Is the soldier maintaining grooming standards consistent within the limits of the profile. If the answers are Yes, the soldier should be good to go. 3) Has the Soldier been counseled by Medical Authority on methods to reduce the likelihood of recurrence once the current event has been resolved?

You are allowed to ask general questions about the condition with a medical authority, however names and identifying information should not be discussed. A Dermatologist can also provide insight on the nature of the specific skin issues, with ingrown hair there are some treatment treatment options the Physician can recommend, if the skin shows eruptions due to ingrown hairs; shaving is generally not recommended, but a personal grooming tool can keep the facial hair closely trimmed with out aggravating the existing skin condition.

Also ask Medical Control if the situation is caused by Contact Dermatitis? What is the soldier exposed to that may be causing the issue? Generally protective masks do not cause a reaction. however some cleansing products can cause skin reactions.

In regards to how to address the profile S1 should be able to provide guidance as well.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 5:28 PM

2020-04-29T17:28:06-04:00

To me hating shaving profiles is on the same lines as hating someone that scrapes by with 60s on the apft/acft. The only difference is that SOMEtimes (some have blatantly admitted that they didnt ever have a real need for it, just wanted it) those with a shaving profile cant help that they need it. He can hate it all he wants but it doesnt do any good to increase tensions by externally voicing it.

Handled it with the NCO well by telling them to keep their mouth shut. Could have handled it better with the Private I would say. Thinking of it from the privates eyes it's now wrong to not like beards and that people that dont like him deserve to be handled. If it's something like this where the NCO isn't going against regs but needs to learn better ways to approach his issues theres no need to "handle" it because there is no real situation. Perhaps you could explain that to the private, "theres nothing saying he cant have that opinion" but then going back and getting into that NCOs ass for being an idiot. Keep the Corps strong and don't let those privates feel entitled.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 5:32 PM

2020-04-29T17:32:30-04:00

I agree with JP SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4". It is completely unprofessional for any NCO to berate a fellow soldier with their opinion. NCOs have three primary duties: accomplish the mission, train and care for their charges (personnel), and care for and maintain military property. None of those include sharing your opinion on how something should be. This kind of behavior is why many young soldiers become discouraged and leave the military.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 5:50 PM

2020-04-29T17:50:37-04:00

I agree with the other responses that this is not an EO situation as a medical profile is not a protected category.
It appears as if the NCO would benefit from some mentoring on leadership. He needs to learn that an effective leader should treat others with dignity and respect. There are clearly defined regulations that supersede his personal opinions. As long as the SM is compliant within the limits of his profile, then it should be a nonissue.
This post prompted a discussion with one of my former supervisors. She mentioned that it could be a form of bullying which I didn't initially consider. Should the NCO's behavior continue after some mentorship, I think treating it as a bullying situation would be a good course of action.

Response by LT Brad McInnis made Apr 29 at 2020 6:28 PM

2020-04-29T18:28:17-04:00

Policy trumps feelings in the military. It isn't EO, rather poor judgment on the part of the SL. Tell the SL he can get in line, can the crap, or face problems.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 6:44 PM

2020-04-29T18:44:58-04:00

Reading through some of the other comments, I am surprised by some of the posts that are against shaving profiles.

Pseudofolliculitis Barbae is a potentially serious medial condition. Would anyone want to shave with this condition?

Response by SFC Casey O'Mally made Apr 29 at 2020 7:02 PM

2020-04-29T19:02:47-04:00

A shaving profile, regardless of one's personal opinions about it, is a valid medical profile. Does the NCO feel the same way about other medical profiles?

I would have THAT conversation with the NCO in question. If necessary, which I hope it would NOT be, I would put the NCO in place regarding their medical expertise, lack thereof, and therefore the (complete and total lack of) value of their opinion regarding the situation. If they still didn't get it, THEN I would go to putting on paper an official order to keep their yap shut about any and all medical profiles.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Apr 29 at 2020 7:13 PM

2020-04-29T19:13:38-04:00

You did well, if the SM is with the profile- it damn well doesn't matter what
the NCO thinks. Comments like this are un-professional and reflect badly on the NCO, Counsel him to keep his personal opinions to his self, or he will be the one trouble. I didn't like them either, but kept my mouth shut cause the Dr, issued it.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 29 at 2020 8:10 PM

2020-04-29T20:10:46-04:00

Yep - you handled it right. I would advise you to fire up a formal counselling regarding the NCO's misaprehension regarding medical profiles, his poor attitude towards his soldiers and reminding him that squad morale and discipline are his responsibility. Saying things like that can result in a lack of trust in him by his subordinates. If he continues in his poor attitude towards his soldiers there may -- in fact, almost certainly will be serious discipline problems later.
He needs to learn to keep his personal feelings to himself. He needs to do things the army way, not the SGT Schmuckatelli way.

Response by Cpl Ernest Thomas made Apr 29 at 2020 8:17 PM

2020-04-29T20:17:26-04:00

You were absolutely correct.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Apr 29 at 2020 8:18 PM

2020-04-29T20:18:15-04:00

Shaking my head. Stupid buck sgt. You did right. Yes, it is EO. I highly suggest that this E-5 get a bit of counseling. If he keeps it up, tell him it will be noted in his NCOER.

Response by MSgt Steven Holt, NRP, CCEMT-P made Apr 29 at 2020 8:58 PM

2020-04-29T20:58:22-04:00

I was never a huge fan of the shaving waivers either but this NCO needs to "check himself before he wrecks himself". My (and his) opinion doesn't matter in regards to the established rules, laws, policies, and regulations. Our role is to fairly enforce standards regardless of our personal feelings and/or beliefs.

I think you handled the situation as well as you could have. I'd suggest having an "informal" conversation with this NCO about keeping his personal feelings as just that...PERSONAL. You could also remind him that his next NCOER could reflect poorly if he doesn't learn to remain professional in his dealings.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Apr 29 at 2020 10:18 PM

2020-04-29T22:18:25-04:00

You did your job and the NCO needs to comply. You don't have to say, "That's an order."
A SPC in my unit (not mine) got an Article 15. He tried to use that as his defense to the CO.
I'm with SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" on this one.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 29 at 2020 11:07 PM

2020-04-29T23:07:52-04:00

I would move PFC snuffy to a different squad if possible before things get stupid. Temporary fix but reduces the chances of this SGT hazing/harnessing the PFC. just the perspective of a junior enlisted soldier sergeant.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Apr 30 at 2020 6:58 AM

2020-04-30T06:58:22-04:00

Since you know this has happened before, this should be a written counseling. If it happens again, well....Squad leader isn't a rank, it's a position. I would relieve him of his position and give it to the next in line. Would be fun to see the look on that SGT's face when an SPC or CPL has positional authority over him.

Response by William Barry made Apr 30 at 2020 7:40 AM

2020-04-30T07:40:11-04:00

As near as I can tell, It is something called workplace harassment. It doesn't fall under sexual harassment guidelines, because there is no sexual overtone, but does fall under the guidelines for creating a hostile work environment. This E5 squad leader is telling someone his personal opinion, yes, but because he is a supervisor in a workplace it is creating hostility.

I had to deal with a similar situation in the kitchen when newer staff members were telling seniors that they should retire. Whether right or wrong, these things should not be said. As long as you put a stop to it, for now just inform the E5 that his belief cannot be expressed in that manner. Some higher commander is allowing this soldier to not shave. I am a mental health worker and N95 masks do not fit correctly so the NCO has some justification for his words, but that doesn't mean he can make the soldiers life hell.

He cannot violate the orders of the higher commander, esp. if the person is an MD or RN. If he goes against your orders it is now insubordination and harassment. If he goes against your and an MD's direction, now it is a a real issue. So possibly an ART 15 at that point, but not sure. I'm not an expert on UCMJ, but many of these rules are in civilian jobs as well.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 30 at 2020 8:55 AM

2020-04-30T08:55:38-04:00

I think you handled it correctly and if the NCO does it again they need to be Counceled.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Apr 30 at 2020 12:14 PM

2020-04-30T12:14:39-04:00

Is he your NCO?

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 30 at 2020 1:06 PM

2020-04-30T13:06:46-04:00

I might find shaving profiles a little funky (says the guy who once had a "no yelling, no cadence calling" profile...seriously!) but I understand the need for them and have known a few guys on them who were fine soldiers.

Sounds like you have an NCO whose Hooah! feelings, while passionate--and passionate is good--are not well placed in this instance. The soldier is on profile and is following his profile. Here endeth the story. Seems to me like you handled it quite well.

Response by SGT Robert Wager made Apr 30 at 2020 1:55 PM

2020-04-30T13:55:47-04:00

He doesn’t get an opinion on medical profiles. He is not that soldier’s doctor. The NCO needs a formal counseling session to help him understand the scope of his authority.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Apr 30 at 2020 2:37 PM

2020-04-30T14:37:16-04:00

You handled it right. You listened to the concern, confirmed the information and addressed the problem. I would just plan to move forward as normal unless it becomes an ongoing issue. If the young Solider is within regs and within their shaving profile they are doing what they need to. If the Sgt keeps harassing the young Solider address it like you normally would with any other behavior issue. If it persists it wouldn't hurt to consult with the EO rep for guidance and Senior enlisted leadership. Hopefully the Sgt learns how to manage their opinions with their leadership responsibilities.

Response by LTC Stephen F. made May 1 at 2020 12:00 AM

2020-05-01T00:00:43-04:00

Thank you SFC Private RallyPoint Member for posting a great question articulately and respectfully.
It is refreshing to see a post with both those applying.
Thank you my friend SGT Private RallyPoint Member for mentioning me.
I agree with the salient points of my friend SFC James J. Palmer IV aka "JP4" SGM Bill Frazer MSG Private RallyPoint Member 1SG Mark Flowers and most of the others responders.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 1 at 2020 1:45 AM

2020-05-01T01:45:29-04:00

“ how do I handle a situation if one of my NCOs thinks a soldier needing a shaving profile needs to get out of the Army?”

Real simple. As shaving profiles are a valid, common thing that are in compliance with Army regulations, you just need to inform the NCO that you think that NCOs who take it upon themselves to publicly disregard Army regulation (in front of Junior enlisted) in favor of personal opinion need to get out of the Army.

Response by SSG Conrad Sylvestrelamb made May 3 at 2020 7:13 PM

2020-05-03T19:13:11-04:00

I had a shaving profile, only one who asked was a SGM ,presented it done deal younger NCO inquired. Professionally said stay in your lane SGT you're still a pup.lol

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made May 11 at 2020 3:22 PM

2020-05-11T15:22:24-04:00

You did right by gently confronting the E5 about this subject. His feelings about shaving waviers must never come into play. If this E5 is truly a professional, his "opinion" must never be voiced to anyone but himself. I'm not shocked that he is also black and understanding of Sudo feliculitous, the bumps caused by shaving by black men, whose facial hair retracts back into the skin because of its thickness. And as an NCO, he must show better leadership in all his voicings.

Response by MSG Felipe De Leon Brown made Jul 6 at 2020 4:29 PM

2020-07-06T16:29:40-04:00

I agree with how you handled it. If the E-5 brings it up again, he can find himself subject to censure under the UCMJ. At the very least, he might have to be corrected in front of the 1SG. No one, regardless of rank and so forth has any authority to force/coerce any subordinate to conform with his or her personal bias in defiance of published regulations.
This reminds me of when the Army first authorized wear of the mustache to all soldiers who chose to do so. I was in Viet Nam and was on my way to R&R towards the end of an 18-month tour (I had extended). I was ordered to shave my mustache off before I could receive my R&R orders. If not, I would have to return to the A-Site I was assigned to. I followed the unjust order, received my orders and made a stop at the nearest division JAG office enroute to my R&R. When I return to Nam, the JAG MAJ took me to the SGM and advised him that any further violation of my rights would result in him being read Art.31 of the UCMJ. Made a couple of enemies but at least I kept my dignity and honor. Respect has to be earned and the best way is to show that one respects one's subordinates.
The United States Army provides specific regulations and guidelines that address appearance. The E-5 is out of bounds to berate his subordinate because of his shaving profile and it is he, not the subordinate, who should be kicked out of the Army.

Response by CPT Daniel Rodriguez made Jul 14 at 2020 12:21 AM

2020-07-14T00:21:22-04:00

You handled it correctly with a verbal counseling. You might want to do a MFR . If this happens again, I would do a formal written counseling statement. That should send the message to the NCO.

Response by Sgt Jack Fleming made Jul 26 at 2020 7:05 PM

2020-07-26T19:05:22-04:00

What is a shaving profile?

Response by Sgt Jack Fleming made Jul 26 at 2020 7:05 PM

2020-07-26T19:05:41-04:00

What is a shaving profile

Response by Sgt Johnny Hawkins made Oct 9 at 2020 2:38 PM

2020-10-09T14:38:05-04:00

Sounds like a terrible NCO to me.

Response by PFC Heather Smith made Mar 25 at 2021 6:52 PM

2021-03-25T18:52:46-04:00

I got out because I was pregnant and my 1st Sgt told me I needed to get out as he didn't allow pregnant soldiers in his unit. Biggest mistake ever was listening to the jerk!

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Jun 12 at 2021 12:05 PM

2021-06-12T12:05:50-04:00

I have more of a problem with medical personnel who give out these profiles. Transfer him to another unit. Perhaps they will get along better

Response by Sgt Roy Perrin made Aug 25 at 2022 1:51 PM

2022-08-25T13:51:58-04:00

I've experienced similar issues. I personally would remind the NCO that if medical gave him a shaving chit, and his facial hair or skin reactions to shaving are not impeding his ability to perform, then he needs to accept that decision made by people far more qualified to do so and that, while he may have feelings about it, he doesn't need to act or speak to fellow soldiers who may someday save his life. In my experience, almost everyone has something that someone else feels should disqualify them from service (for example, being a bad or negative leader to those you are supposed to mentor, train, and be an example to).