As a SPC in a Team Leader Role, how should I go about counseling a soldier on disrespect towards myself and other soldiers?

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:40:31 -0400

SM is being chaptered and is on his way out. He just signs the counselings I give him without acknowledging the information. I’ve gone over them with him and he doesn’t seem to care about time being wasted or any other repercussion. He is extremely disrespectful to me and other soldiers that try to correct his actions. As a young Leader coming up, what information can my NCO’s give me for this situation. Thank you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2021 8:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2021 20:43:20 -0400

Take them up the chain of command. You’ve done your part.

Response by SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres made Sep 13 at 2021 9:17 PM

SGT Jose Perdelia-Torres — Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:17:10 -0400

I had to chapter a few Soldiers out, or assist with their chapters in some form or another. He most likely has reached the point where he has lost all respect for the unit, a/o certain persons involved. He doesn't seem or doesn't in actuality have any respect for you but you need to sit down with him and say the following:

Have I ever disrespected you? If I have, from now until you leave I want you to know I'm not going to disrespect you and I expect you to respect me. I understand the situation, and I understand how you must feel. You know that you will make things harder on yourself because your actions and behavior have consequences. I'm a leader and you welfare is my priority, and I'm going to ensure you leave here in as smooth as a transition as I can. So lets get on the same page. If you insist on continuing your disrespectful behavior; you leave me no choice but to report such behavior when My supervisors and Yours inquire about you.

I also echo what SFC Moysard has stated. Use the chain of command as much as possible and communicate with your NCOs. If you got this then continue, but know
your limits.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 13 at 2021 9:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:47:34 -0400

Been there, done that. Remain professional and up the chain the documentation goes. Do not waste your time with trying to alter a bad attitude if it seems impossible. It will only unnecessarily piss you off.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Sep 13 at 2021 9:47 PM

SSG Brian G. — Mon, 13 Sep 2021 21:47:58 -0400

Here is the long and short of it. He is being chaptered out the military. So in his view and mindset, you do not matter. To him the job, the military and everything else does not matter. He knows he is getting out and that really you can do nothing about or to him.

The most that can happen is that he receives one or more article 15's on his way out. He has given up caring.

So here is what you do. You counsel him and reference previous counseling statements and his actions then you turn that over to your immediate NCO who hopefully will read it and walk it to the 1SGT and he can then walk it into the Commander. This is not about him at this point. This is about you showing those who remain that this type of behavior will not be tolerated. Because if you let it slide or ignore it or whatnot then the others will read you as weak and this type of thing will breed and will be seen by higher ups and this could impact your position. IE having it stripped of you.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2021 12:08 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 00:08:40 -0400

You've gotten some good advice here from the NCO's. Not much I can add on but reinforce what they've said.

You have a Soldier that for whatever reason, whatever actions he has done, whatever chain of command they happen to have, whatever it is they no longer care. Respect for leadership means nothing, counselings mean nothing, and punishments mean nothing. There are a variety of factors that bring someone to this point, sometimes it's just a realization that they don't want to be in anymore. Sometimes it's toxic leadership. Without knowing the Soldier personally I can't say.

The best you can do is make sure you're counselings are on point, I say this because I've seen some serious crayon drawn stuff that I've had to explain to brigade command teams why I couldn't use multiple counselings as supporting documentation for NJP's. Ended up being some NCO and Legal LPD's for a lot of stripe wearers after that. Good training, don't think the CSM's were too happy in the moment though.

Finally, you need to work to mitigate the negativity that's rolling off of this guy on to everyone else in your team. You need to try and keep morale high even with this going on. You can try and talk with the guy, but at this point he probably doesn't care to explain himself. That said, until they're out they're a Soldier in your formation. Treat him accordingly, help him with whatever admin stuff he needs to take care of, etc, before he's out. There's no reason to kick the guy when he's down and done with it all. Multiple reasons for this, but a big one is that you are a professional and a leader and while you can't govern others behavior you can govern your own.

Good luck.

Response by CPT William Pearson made Sep 14 at 2021 12:25 AM

CPT William Pearson — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 00:25:32 -0400

Two options: tell him the easy way or the hard way. Mistakes happen, however, the military is different. Disrespect is not accepted. Attitude determines altitude. I would ask for some help correcting his behavior with higher command. Making his egress difficult would change the timing.

Response by SSG Wilber Broadway made Sep 14 at 2021 7:18 AM

SSG Wilber Broadway — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 07:18:52 -0400

DA FORM 4856

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 14 at 2021 8:34 AM

SSgt Christophe Murphy — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 08:34:24 -0400

If the solider in question is already pending a chaptered discharge there isn't a ton you can do in the way of being productive. The Command has already made up their mind and for the most part so has the solider being chaptered out. I'm assuming it's pattern of misconduct and if you don't know the process it's pretty layered. A lot happens for someone to get chaptered out. Try to be positive with them and just keep a weathered eye on them but don't expect an ah ha moment because this kid has their eyes set on getting out at any cost at this point

Response by SSG Edward Tilton made Sep 14 at 2021 9:00 AM

SSG Edward Tilton — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:00:15 -0400

It shouldn't be your job. Go up the Chain of Command to a Real NCO. No slight on you but his position and rank are needed

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 14 at 2021 9:37 AM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 09:37:38 -0400

He's getting chaptered out. You no longer have any carrots to offer this horse, and he no longer fears the stick.
Any effort you put into this kid at this point is a waste of your time, and is time now best spent on the good Soldiers you do have. Do your job, but don't let him monopolize all your time. It's wasted.
So continue to counsel, do the right thing, but don't burden yourself with delusions that you're going to reform this kid. Some people just have no business in uniform.

Response by SGT Jonathan Persons made Sep 14 at 2021 11:24 AM

SGT Jonathan Persons — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:24:59 -0400

Have you ever tried to move water with a rake?

Getting through to this individual in this situation is kind of like that. They have shown you that they don't care, don't let them get to you. Focus on the other soldiers assigned to you while you have a chance to mentor them, and accept the fact that you can't fix everyone.

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2021 11:58 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 11:58:11 -0400

Partner with COC to get him out of the unit, to minimize damage ASAP. Maybe Casual Co. or anything similar.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 14 at 2021 12:58 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 12:58:22 -0400

It's most likely a waste of time, He may have to acknowledge He received the counseling but I doubt He will cooperate beyond that and He doesn't have to admit or even agree only acknowledge He was counselled. I wouldn't worry much about it. Depending on what it is He could still be confined in Corrective Custody within a jail cell but that's up to the Commander. As long as You do what is required of You and document it, make whatever notifications You are required to do I doubt You will have a problem.

Response by MSgt Steve Sweeney made Sep 14 at 2021 3:51 PM

MSgt Steve Sweeney — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:51:19 -0400

Spend as little time bothering with him as possible and focus your efforts on your team. Always prioritize your main effort and don't reinforce failure. Not worth your time.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 14 at 2021 3:52 PM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 15:52:01 -0400

You have been handed an impossible task. Your CoC knows this. How you respond is what really matters. You can use this to establish yourself as a no-nonsense leader or you can let him drag you down.
My suggestion: find the most meaningless and excruciatingly boring tasks possible and assign him to them. Be sure to establish clear expectations for his assignments with a reasonable but firm timeline. Preventative Maintenance tasks come to mind, especially the really dirty ones. If he fails to achieve the objective, document it. Every time you document something forward it up with a recommendation for corrective action. I would suggest it involves money or free time.
If the CoC allows him to continue to dick the dog without intervening it is on them, not you.

BTW: Don't listen to the "wall-to wall counseling" idiots who claim to have beaten up every asshole who dared to disagree with them.

Response by MAJ Matthew Arnold made Sep 14 at 2021 5:15 PM

MAJ Matthew Arnold — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 17:15:04 -0400

This is definitely NCO business, and the NCO who have posted replies have given you good advice, so I hesitate to post anything, but here goes anyway. Since he is on the way out and does not care, perhaps appealing to his sense of friendship and loyalty to the other members of the team. Maybe something like, "John, could you just quit screwing the other guys over until you get out"? Do the counseling, do the paperwork, as recommended by experienced NCOs, and then try to appeal to his sense of not screwing over other people.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2021 7:09 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 19:09:44 -0400

First a small chat, usually fixes it, second physical punishment, don’t let the old method fall by the wayside. Pain is the best punishment and it works a lot I’m referring to smoking him physically not beating his ass. third is paperwork which I personally hate but it’s the next step and hopefully the last.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 14 at 2021 8:47 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 14 Sep 2021 20:47:59 -0400

You have the answers here, he doesn't care anymore, but you ckeep doing the right thing so everyone else understands we don't tolerate it.

But you can also do him a favor:
Remind him that he can be an a-hole every day in the Army and he still collects a paycheck until his ETS date.
But in civilian employment, it doesn't take months, or even weeks to get rid of someone, and if he doesn't learn to adult, he'll find out quick that the civilian job version of a "chapter" is "pick up your last paycheck on your way out the door today" kind of thing.
And that makes it tough to pay rent, bills, tuition, etc.

Response by SSG Keven Lahde made Sep 15 at 2021 10:01 AM

SSG Keven Lahde — Wed, 15 Sep 2021 10:01:05 -0400

Pretty much nothing you can do. In his eyes, there is nothing you can do to him to make him change. How being chaptered out, sucks for you because you have to deal with the negativity. Look at it this way, good building tool for you, and will help you going further on how to deal with it if you ever have to again. Let's hope you don't. He just needs to go along with his bad attitude.

Response by CPL Theresa Cressey made Sep 16 at 2021 2:23 PM

CPL Theresa Cressey — Thu, 16 Sep 2021 14:23:06 -0400

If a behavior change has settled happens. Something happen too him to trigger that behavior. Counseling if he is willing to go get it is needed.

Response by CSM John Mead made Oct 28 at 2021 5:05 PM

CSM John Mead — Thu, 28 Oct 2021 17:05:57 -0400

First, that's a very good question for someone in a challenging leadership position. Secondly, don't think of yourself as a Specialist in a Sergeant's position. Technically, that may be true, but you need to always think of yourself in a leadership role. There's not much that you can do with a "soldier" who has already resigned himself to the fact that he is on his way out, albeit not favorably. He may very well be gone by the time that you read this, but one way to approach him is to relay the fact that he isn't leaving the service favorably and that can seriously impact on whatever veterans benefits that he may be eligible for. Other than that, and I'm sure that you've already documented every breach of respect due those over him, you owe him nothing other than to ensure that he clears the unit and installation correctly. Soldiers like that are taxing to leaders and set a bad precedent around good troops. Let the others know what his future looks like and not to emulate his behavior. I applaud you for asking what is correct protocol, but i honestly believe that you already know what to do. Don't waste time on duds, but always take care of the ones that are doing their jobs. This misfit doesn't even know that he's set the example for others, as to know what not to do.

Response by PO1 Todd McMillin made Nov 21 at 2021 10:24 PM

PO1 Todd McMillin — Sun, 21 Nov 2021 22:24:33 -0500

My overall thought is that; He's basically a "LOST CAUSE" he should have never joined the service to begin with. There's a background story clearly you're missing that explains his attitude and behavior towards the military which is why he's lost hope and no longer wants to serve. The thing is part of being a good NCO is understanding why he's this way and preventing this "BAD ATTITUDE & BEHAVIOR" from infecting the rest of the squad, team and/or command.

I had the same problem in my final command with a young E-3 under my charge; the problem is that his coworkers had bullied and harassed him to breaking point. There was very little I could do because I was stuck as the Duty Officer and had to remain behind at the base while he deployed and things clearly got worse when he was out of my control and my fellow E-6 was more concerned about putting on her Chief's Anchor as a newly Frocked E-7 then doing her job of being a leader. This lead to his discharge as Admin Separation with Mental Health Issues on his DD-214. While he could have been turned around had I been able to stay with him and correct him with one-on-one counseling and adjusting his coworkers shit behavior towards him as well.

So the first question is "What Happened to cause this change in attitude and behavior?" Also did this person experience any MST of any kind that created the problem or was there a "Death" of a family, friend or someone that was close to the individual that served as the "Triggering Event" to start this downward spiral of action.

Second question is "How long does he have left and are there ways to fix what's created the problem to turn him into a LOST CAUSE that can be used to prevent further problems with the rest of the command or squad?

Third question: Has the command looked at being more team oriented in goals and working to be "INCLUSIVE" to everyone.

Lastly: Is there a way to find out if the problem is an internal or external source that caused him to decide to give up and quit?

I should point out that clearly if the outside factors which caused him to give up are something that happened due to the command or squad being shitty team. Then clearly, those folks should be "Adjusted or Corrected in their behavior to prevent the problem from spreading outward".

Again, Bad Attitudes and Behaviors have "Triggering Events" that can be managed and dealt with accordingly if you want to be a leader you need to fix the problem including cutting the head of the snake as it were to prevent it from spreading like a cancer to the command or squad to prevent repeat incidents and causing the squad moral to fail overall.