At what point does society stop paying for the sins of their fathers?

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 17:44:24 -0400

Is there a point at which making, or attempting to make, amends for past injustices (slavery, the holocaust, women’s rights, gay rights, treatment of Vietnam vets, etc. ) becomes counterproductive?

Response by SFC Joseph James made May 13 at 2015 6:02 PM

SFC Joseph James — Wed, 13 May 2015 18:02:48 -0400

I think as a society we have made a lot of steps to right the "wrongs" of the past. Some of your points are so far in the past that no one alive today has ever been burdened with those prejudices. While others are a more current issue. I believe that if I wronged someone then as a person i will fix it. I as an American personally owe nothing to any of these people. Heck I'm Irish, i want all New Yorkers to apologize to me for the way we were treated! Just kidding, but you can see how this can go forever, and with EVERY type of person out there.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 6:21 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 18:21:05 -0400

I think that as a society we will never be able to move fully forward until we can forgive the sins before us. We need to learn from them, remember them, but not dig up dead horses to beat them every time a problem relating to an issues comes up.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2015 6:28 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 May 2015 18:28:26 -0400

Do you have a specific incident or situation in mind, former-sir?

Response by MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca made May 13 at 2015 8:52 PM

MAJ Robert (Bob) Petrarca — Wed, 13 May 2015 20:52:37 -0400

The only ones that should receive reparations are the people it directly happened to, after that, what point are we proving. Bad people roam the earth perpetrating bad things on good people. Has happened before and will happen again. You can't blame people generations later for what happened back then and you can't expect apologies from people who had nothing to do with the actions - though some idiotic politicians think it will win them votes. "Live and let live" At some point we have to move on or this will never end.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 13 at 2015 8:53 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Wed, 13 May 2015 20:53:49 -0400

I think the problem is a good chunk of American society is disenfranchised. The immigrants who come here, start businesses, and send their kids to college will be more successful than those who don't embrace the American way of life.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made May 13 at 2015 9:25 PM

SFC Michael Hasbun — Wed, 13 May 2015 21:25:19 -0400

I'm pretty sure at some point my great great grandfather got punched in the face by someone. I'm certainly not going to expect reparations from their family...

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2015 9:41 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 May 2015 09:41:12 -0400

Reparations are always a tricky issue, and people can argue endlessly about what level of amends are appropriate to a given injustice. What strikes me, though, is how far many people go to avoid looking at the second and third order effects of the injustice, rather than just the readily-apparent.

Take slavery, and more importantly, the racism and discrimination that drove and perpetuated it (and were in turn driven and perpetuated in part by it). We all know slavery formally ended in America due to the Civil War (or as it should be more accurately called, the War of Southern Treason), but the lingering effects of the racism, and the resentment over the comparative loss of status by the whites who refused to see blacks as equals, still continues to this very day. Sure, the overt discrimination prior to the Civil Rights era is not as permissible, but that's far from saying discrimination itself has ended.

To this day, otherwise indistinguishable job applicants have lower call-back rates from recruiters if the name on the resume "sounds" black. To this day, being black still means that it's harder to get a loan, or get a good rate on one, even when your credit is just as good. To this day, blacks get targeted by police at far higher rates than the crime statistics warrant for almost everything, and on average get harsher sentences, too. And keep in mind, this is *just one* such issue of those noted above.

The problem -- more often than not -- isn't amends for "past" injustices, it's the inability of so many to be able to perceive that so many of these "past" injustices are actually *still going on*.

And yes, with the assault on Women's reproductive rights and backlash against fair pay, that's an injustice that's *still going on*. This issue was not settled magically in 1919 with the Women's Suffrage movement.

And yes, with the fight against marriage equality, that's an injustice that's *still going on*. Hell, we're barely more than a decade past when being gay was enough to get you *thrown in jail*.

"The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice." -- Rev. Dr. Martin Luter King, Jr. (paraphrasing Theodore Parker)

"Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will." -- Frederick Douglass

Counterproductive? On the contrary, nothing could be more necessary, for the opposite is continued *in*-justice, which any ethical person is duty-bound to combat.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 2 at 2015 12:29 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 02 Jul 2015 12:29:14 -0400

Certainly one point where "we stop paying for the sins of the fathers" is when we learn the lessons of history so we do not repeat them. This includes the obvious ban against civil rights violations in its obvious racist form but should also entail barring of any racist or sexist policies. You can not prove racism was wrong by enacting policies that reduces options and opportunities, marginalizes, or punishes one generation of a certain race in order to make up for past racial/gender crimes. This type of thinking is morally bankrupt and sets in perpetual motion a dangerous moral pendulum of racist policies favoring opposing groups from one generation to the next.

Response by LTC Bink Romanick made Jul 4 at 2015 12:37 PM

LTC Bink Romanick — Sat, 04 Jul 2015 12:37:53 -0400

Sitting this one out!

Response by SMSgt Judy Hickman made Jul 4 at 2015 12:58 PM

SMSgt Judy Hickman — Sat, 04 Jul 2015 12:58:13 -0400

"It's been my experience, Langford, that the past always has a way of returning. Those who don't learn, or can't remember it, are doomed to repeat it.”
― Steve Berry, The Charlemagne Pursuit
I will not apologize for history, but I will not ignore what has happened in the past. Using the examples above, I have not been personally affected by any of these past events. I have friends who have ancestors that were slaves, I have Jewish friends that lost ancestors to the Holocaust, I am a women and feel I have the rights I deserve as an equal to any man, I am not homosexual, my father was treated terribly after the Vietnam War and it took years for the government to admit ruining his Kidneys with agent orange....but I hope we have learned from these mistakes and have the ability to move on.

Unfortunately some because of their own histories feel strongly about these subjects and they cannot give them up, because of what has happened to them or their ancestors. Who am I to say that their beliefs have become counterproductive even though I'm a firm believer of the "Let it Go" mentality, don't hold grudges and move on.

Response by Cpl Chris Rice made Jul 7 at 2015 1:06 AM

Cpl Chris Rice — Tue, 07 Jul 2015 01:06:17 -0400

Why is it inappropriate to feel guilt for previous generations actions, but many will run around screaming their pride for their previous generations? To put it simply in answer to your question there is absolutely no point in attempting to make amends for previous injustices that you yourself did not commit, but it appears many times within our society that while we wish to wash our hands of those injustices we are perfectly willing to accept the accolades for the actions of those very same people.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and figured this has something to do with the Confederate flag of South Carolina, and please consider it this way for one moment. From 1865 to 1956 the South Carolina Statehouse property did not have a Confederate flag on it, as desegregation became a movement within the United States they placed the flag over the Statehouse as a sign of protest. Now many of those who support the Confederate flag remaining on the Statehouse property in South Carolina are happy to show pride in states’ rights, in the previous generations efforts to fight the federal government, but do not want to show the guilt associated with fighting the federal government over desegregation.

If you want to honor the past you should remember it honestly, or don’t at all. We are doomed to repeat the history we do not remember, and it seems we only want to remember the good parts.