Avoiding Saluting an LT; What do you do when you see this?

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 12:41:52 -0500

I was at Luke AFB and personally witnessed an NCO take the longest path possible to get to their car to avoid saluting me. I didn't try to get into his path to "force" a salute but it just seems unnecessary for that kind of animosity. I understand that people may not be fond with the idea of saluting a fresh new 22-year-old LT. <div><br></div><div>What do you guys think? What situations have you guys been in? For those who have experienced this, how did you handle it? </div>

Response by PO2 Jay O'Brien made Nov 12 at 2013 2:10 PM

PO2 Jay O'Brien — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:10:09 -0500

I disagree your not saluting the the person your saluting the rank whether the NCO was SNIFF lipped or having a bad day he should have saluted he should not o be dressed down in public he should of been pulled aside somewhere in private and been told exactly that right then and there.

Response by PO2 Jay O'Brien made Nov 12 at 2013 2:17 PM

PO2 Jay O'Brien — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 14:17:32 -0500

As i said earlier whether the NCO was STIFF lipped or having a bad day your not saluting the person your saluting the rank but dressing down a Nco in public would have been wrong you should of pulled him aside and addressed the issue right then and there would have been the right path if done in a private area

Response by CMC Robert Young made Nov 12 at 2013 5:21 PM

CMC Robert Young — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 17:21:31 -0500

Sir, that's disappointing to hear. Any service member worth their salt shouldn't have a reason to avoid simply honoring our traditions, heritage, customs and rules. There's more to this than meets the eye with this NCO. It might bear watching in the future. That is not the example we want set for our junior members.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2013 11:40 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Nov 2013 23:40:23 -0500

Being prior enlisted in the Army I never avoided saluting an officer. There seemed to be so many and it was so regular I never minded. My thought was, they have to salute back and they always did!

Now as an officer I've seen people try to avoid me or it certainly seems like it. As an officer I'm constantly paying attention. I figure that I have to salute nearly everyone and I don't want to be that guy that doesn't salute back. I take it very seriously.

In the Coast Guard I've traveled to other installations and haven't been saluted by members of that branch of service. Since we're not DOD I can only think they don't realize they are supposed to salute all the members of the Armed Forces (which we are a member of). This isn't all that common but has happened. If it's blatant I'd would address it tactfully. If I feel it needs to go higher, on the Coast Guard side I'll pass it over to the Chief's Mess . I feel extremely confident they could handle the issue.

I often find that military members are unaware that those customs are extended to the seven members of the uniformed services.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2013 11:59 PM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Nov 2013 23:59:18 -0500

Hello LT,

I actually find this quite common. Not only that, but I've seen it go both ways. Enlisted members avoiding an officer so they don't salute, and officers avoiding entire groups of enlisted. We've actually had conversations about this in my workcenter. I'm no expert, but I can take my guesses to why this is happening.

#1: The individual suffers from social anxiety. I personally fall victim to this. Any time I walk by someone (or greet them), I get irrationally nervous. Make that person an authority figure, such as an officer, and the feeling multiplies ten-fold. It's natural, and it's something I've been working on my entire life. Though I would never go out of my way to avoid saluting, I still go through a state of panic every time I do salute an officer. I find this reason to be the most likely, simply because I know many people who suffer from social anxiety worse than I do.

#2: The individual has an injured shoulder and would rather not explain why he/she didn't salute. It's certainly not likely, but it happens. An Airman in my workcenter recently went through surgery on his right shoulder and was unable to salute for at least a week. And, naturally, he was questioned every time he didn't salute.

#3: The individual may have been under the impression that you didn't want to salute either. And to make it easier for both of you, he took a separate path. Some enlisted get tired of saluting, so they assume that officer can get tired of it as well. In rare cases, they are correct (which could explain the officer avoiding the enlisted).

Having been in for 2 years, these are all from personal experiences with other Airmen. I don't find avoiding an officer excusable, but I understand their reasoning. Please don't take it personally, sir. Most of the time the individual does not mean any disrespect. Simply pulling them aside, preferably at a later time and away from his troops. Respectfully find out why he took a different path, and tell him that you find it unacceptable. Usually just expressing your opinion on the matter will fix their behavior. However, if it continues, then you should take further corrective action (e.g. talk to his/her supervisor).

Hope this helps, sir.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 1:23 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:23:09 -0500

Any lieutenant is worthy of a salute,  because to not do it dishonors the rank,  the person and the services.   IMHO

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2013 1:33 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2013 01:33:00 -0500

Sir, age has nothing to do with being a professoinal, you earn your rank just like they did so its just rude of them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 6:55 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 18:55:25 -0500

As lower enlisted.......<div><br></div><div>I would tell my friends, the only thing I can, by regulation, make an officer do is salute me! Once I salute they are required to return it! </div><div><br></div><div>LOL!!</div><div><br></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;">On a serious note...</span></div><div><span style="color: rgb(77, 77, 77); font-size: 12px;"><br></span></div><div><font color="#4d4d4d"><span style="font-size: 12px;">In the grand scheme of things it seems lifting my hand a few feet a few times a day is minute, especially when many of my brothers and sisters in arms can no longer salute! Those who find saluting to be such a trivial task should really reassess their lives/priorities!! Not only is its disrespectful it is just plain lazy!</span></font><br></div>

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 9 at 2014 7:02 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 09 Feb 2014 19:02:05 -0500

I've had battle buddies that hated 2LTs with a passion. They told that a few rubbed them the wrong way so they avoid being around them so they won't get disrespectful. I've met 2LTs that were full of themselves, but I never avoided saluting them. I understand that fresh LTs have about the same level of experience as a PFC. I understand that it takes a certain amount of patience to deal with them. I just curse out my steering wheel and step out of my car like everything is ok.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2014 1:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 19 Mar 2014 13:29:53 -0400

I don't understand this.  Why create more work for yourself simply to avoid rendering a simple salute?  I know you probably won't like this much, but as a junior enlisted Soldier, we used to intentionally stagger ourselves when we saw our PL walking towards us, effectively forcing him to return multiple salutes.  I really don't understand the mentality of skirting around it.

Response by WO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2014 11:29 PM

WO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 05 Apr 2014 23:29:18 -0400

Now it goes both ways; I have seen TONS of officers either slow down (or even stop walking) and even take different paths to avoid a salute.

Response by COL Vincent Stoneking made Apr 15 at 2014 5:53 PM

COL Vincent Stoneking — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 17:53:17 -0400

I've never experienced that. Usually just the opposite, to the extent of getting a tired arm. <span style="font-size: 13px;">I especially like the people  that space themselves at 8-9 step intervals in a straight line...</span>

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2014 10:28 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 Apr 2014 22:28:23 -0400

There is another reason someone may change path to avoid a salute that has not been mentioned yet. I know that I have taken a longer path to avoid disturbing group actions among a distributed group of enlisted personnel. For example, I crossed a street once to prevent walking near enough to a group of Soldiers on work detail who were receiving instruction from their NCO. If I had continued on course the NCO would likely have stopped, saluted, given the greeting of the day, and potentially lost the focus of his group for a moment.

I understand that his rendering a salute, and my return would present a good example to the Soldiers, but I felt as though the disruption may be less beneficial than me walking a few steps. I walked further to allow him to keep doing a good job and not be a distraction. I would love to hear from others what they think of that decision.

As far as the NCO mentioned in the original question goes, I wonder if he even changed course intentionally, or something else just caused him to take the path he did. I usually only really notice or care when someone walks past me, makes eye contact, and says nothing and fails to salute. I hate that because then I do not get the opportunity to return the salute and honor them.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 16 at 2014 11:29 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 16 Apr 2014 11:29:56 -0400

I have never had even thought to "force" a salute and I have never had a SM or NCO take a longer path to avoid saluting me except when I was with group of officers having a discussion.  In this case it was a courtesy to avoid interrupting our discussion.  From the sound of your question it appears you suspect animosity or will is the cause.  Perhaps it was meant as a courtesy to avoid interrupting what you were doing.  If this was ever the case for me, I would take a look at what I had done to propagate this situation.  As a leader, you have to consider that you have done something wrong as a leader to create or contribute to this situation, especially if it is happening on a regular basis by more than one SM/NCO.  If that is not the case a frank and professional one-on-one discussion may be warranted.  <br><br>Keep in mind these words of wisdom, "Leadership is solving problems.  The day Soldiers stop bringing you their problems is the day you have stopped leading them.  They have either lost confidence that you can help or concluded you do not care.  Either case is a failure of leadership." -Colin Powell, GEN (RET)

Response by CPL Martin Owings made Apr 17 at 2014 10:26 PM

CPL Martin Owings — Thu, 17 Apr 2014 22:26:34 -0400

Sorry to hear this happened to you Sir. To sum up most simply, a salute does not honor the recipient alone but also brings respect upon the soldier as well. In honoring the traditions and respecting the rank we honor and respect each other.

Allons

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 1:13 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 01:13:02 -0400

Had some great ones over the years...the I need to go a different direction, shift a box to the other hand or even putting on chap-stick to avoid to look at the ground. It is almost comical to see what some people will do to avoid a simple salute.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 3:11 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 03:11:08 -0400

Did you ask the NCO why he is taking the longest path to his car? Maybe he needed the extra steps to bump up calories burned on his Nike Fuel Band lol. Nothing wrong with asking a question about something that seems out of the norm. Know not assume, and that needs to be applied to everything. He could be the greatest NCO but not in your eyes if you assume he is some bag nasty avoiding to salute you.

Ive never avoided nor have I had anybody avoid me for the sake of not wanting to give a proper greeting to one of higher grade, thats just nasty.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2014 5:04 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 26 Apr 2014 17:04:57 -0400

When at Officer Basic Course I had a drill sergeant put his head down to ensure that the brim of his hat covered his face as he walked by myself and one of my classmates. I did not say anything but thought well there is a great leader who will teach my new Soldiers the same disrespect. It is that plain and simple. Disrespectful. You salute the rank not the person so just get it over with.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2014 12:10 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 27 Apr 2014 00:10:02 -0400

Some soldiers feel as if they do not owe a new LT that respect, or saluting. Some soldiers enjoy watching new LTs get furious about it. It's a strange world we live in. (for the record, I've never been one of those soldiers.)

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 8 at 2014 2:16 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Jun 2014 02:16:51 -0400

That would have definitely been in the top 10 tool bag moments if you ended up doing that. I'm glad you didn't "force a salute".

Anyways, saluting is a sign of respect to the person who renders it and the person who returns it. It's not just for the officer.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2014 3:44 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 15:44:02 -0400

I once saw a 2LT walk all around and run to avoid saluting a 1LT!!

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jun 13 at 2014 4:11 PM

LTC Paul Labrador — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:11:25 -0400

If you were feeling particularly snarky, you should have altered your path to ensure that he had to salute you. That would have been funny to watch....

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 13 at 2014 4:38 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 13 Jun 2014 16:38:42 -0400

It's a disgrace, yes the NCO has more experiences and most likely fit to lead but that LT is the future leader, he should be mentored and helped. Not resented and disrespected.
He is a higher rank, that means respect. You don't have to like him, you don't have to agree with him, but you have to respect and salute him .

Response by CMSgt James Nolan made Jun 18 at 2014 10:16 PM

CMSgt James Nolan — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 22:16:55 -0400

I have a theory LT and that is "some people just don't get it". It applies to everything in life.
Smoking weed at 6am to take the edge off and get the kids ready for school? Sounds crazy, but we see it.
Walking 100 yards out of your way to avoid a salute? Ridiculous. Even more so when you think about this: -He either saw someone else salute and did not want to, or had vision so sharp that he recognized the shiny bars and had to take evasive action. Or, he possibly recognized you from afar and was scared that you were going to actually ask him for some advice!
Whatever the reason, it is weak and not demonstrative of honorable service. He shamed himself.
The next time you catch someone doing that (and are 100% certain) you should meander over and engage them in a few minutes of idle conversation. Then smile and walk away with the victory.
Here is the deal: The military is about tradition, discipline, courtesy and honor. You take away those things and you have a mob.
Good luck to you Sir.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 18 at 2014 10:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 22:55:00 -0400

Enought said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTRZRRlA4sw

Band of Brothers - We salute the rank, not the man!

This is one of my favorite scenes from Band of Brothers.

Response by SSG David Hollingshead made Jun 18 at 2014 11:01 PM

SSG David Hollingshead — Wed, 18 Jun 2014 23:01:44 -0400

Personally i find it more entertaining to set them up so they end up saluting like 40 privates in a row. :)

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 30 at 2014 3:53 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 30 Jul 2014 15:53:53 -0400

Personally, I just think it's funny and keep going about my business. It's no skin off my nose if someone wants to take some kind of bass-ackwards route to their car to avoid saluting me.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Sep 9 at 2014 5:13 PM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Tue, 09 Sep 2014 17:13:48 -0400

If he truly did that simply to avoid rendering the proper salute/respect, he is an undisciplined military member. The fact that he is an NCO makes it worse.

Funny story... Back 100 years ago, when I was about to enter Ranger School at Fort Benning,, Georgia, five other new Second Lieutenants and I had been assigned to Ranger School a week before the school actually started. We were required to show up for morning PT with the cadre and then basically had the rest of the day off.

As we were assigned to Ranger School as students (even though the class had not started), we had already stripped our uniforms clean of anything but name and "US Army" tapes. No rank, no branch insignia, no unit patches, etc.

Following PT, we typically went to the chow hall at Olsen Hall, the main BOQ at Benning, for breakfast. Although we really should have changed back into a regular uniform (and sometimes we did), at times we simply went in the Ranger School stripped down version if we were running late. One day, as we were walking out of the chow hall, we passed by a group of about 4-5 brand new Lieutenants reporting in for the Infantry Officer Basic Course. We walked past them without so much as a glance when one of them, bellowed "Don't you soldiers salute officers?", to which one of the folks in my group responded with a "F*#k You" and we kept on walking. Of course the Lieutenants did not know that we were also Lieutenants. The group just stood there dumbfounded at the lack of respect they got and we probably shattered their vision of what it was going to be like to be an officer in the Army. :-)

I feel pretty bad about that now; but it was funny.

Response by 1SG Mark Colomb made Sep 10 at 2014 12:50 PM

1SG Mark Colomb — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 12:50:33 -0400

Unless you were on a static post and he knew you were there it seems he saw you and recognized you as a commissioned officer. If at that point he did not render the hand salute he is in violation of the UCMJ. You should have addressed the NCO to let him know you were onto his petty little game. If you approach this in a non confrontational manner and he did not see or recognize you, or he went out of his way to leave a note on a friends car, or whatever, no harm no foul. If he did avoid you on purpose it puts him on notice that you will not put up with that unprofessional behavior and if it happens again he can expect a different outcome.

Response by PO2 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 10 at 2014 1:10 PM

PO2 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Sep 2014 13:10:20 -0400

We use to line up for our new ensigns and ltjg and even LTs and pass it so we were about 5 to 10 feet apart so they had to salute each one lol

Response by SGT Richard H. made Sep 11 at 2014 3:29 PM

SGT Richard H. — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:29:39 -0400

Capt Private RallyPoint Member what you found there wasn't an NCO in my book. You found a rare species called a "dirtbag". You can inform his chain of command if you like, but you can't change a dirtbag. Hopefully, he will ETS and take his dirtbaggery elsewhere.

Response by Cpl Murray Estes made Sep 11 at 2014 3:54 PM

Cpl Murray Estes — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:54:19 -0400

I think all of my generation is guilty of this. We're walking around, see shiny on a collar, and maintain a 10-pace radius to avoid saluting. I personally only did this when I knew for a fact that a portion of my uniform was out of regulation (in actuality, I avoided everyone I could in this situation). Often times, I was on my way to correct the error, but the fact that being told twenty times in two minutes to correct a known issue gets annoying, thus leading me to in those instances, to avoid higher ups. Any other time, I'd continue on my merry way and render the appropriate courtesy.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 11 at 2014 3:58 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 15:58:47 -0400

When I in-processed to Fort Campbell in 2009 the CG of the 101st ABN DIV (AASLT) came over to the reception battalion one day to say hello, among other things. One of the things he emphasized was to always keep our heads on a swivel and maintain situational awareness at all times. As example he provide us the following wisdom, which I'm forced to paraphrase. He said "Soldiers, if one day you see me strolling up and I see you immediately break contact then I couldn't be prouder. You kept your head on a swivel, took notice of the incoming threat, and took steps to live to fight another day." He went on to talk about the fates of those he managed to sneak up on.

Sir, the moral of the story is to not fault this NCO, but rather applaud him/her for their highly tuned senses and situational awareness. Be proud of their efforts to combat complacency because always remember, complacency kills! Also be proud that you are apparently enough of a BAMF to merit an expeditious tactical advance to the rear.

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Sep 11 at 2014 4:16 PM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Thu, 11 Sep 2014 16:16:16 -0400

It's not only that, when I was in 8th Infantry Division in 1975, I went to Division HQ to see the Division CSM. I was the Division Soldier of the Year. We were leaving his office and going down the stairs. There was a gaggle of Sr Officers and Enlisted waiting inside the door, Yep, it was almost 1700 and Retreat was about to be played, The CSM was livid, he shouted, I am going upstairs to get my boss and we are ALL going outside to salute the flag...The building emptied quickly. It's not only LT's it's military courtesy as a whole.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2014 7:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Sep 2014 07:27:39 -0400

My LT and I used to go to the chow hall for breakfast together and I was always amazed at how soldiers always became bird watchers when they saw an Officer approaching.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 12 at 2014 2:44 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Sep 2014 14:44:26 -0400

LT, do push ups for not correcting the NCO. You are an officer in the US Air Force. If you let him/her get away with this it will reinforce in their mind that they can get away with this type of behavior. To add insult to injury, any junior enlisted who saw this automatically thinks it is 'ok' to do this as well because the NCO did it.

Response by PFC Zanie Young made Nov 27 at 2014 8:46 AM

PFC Zanie Young — Thu, 27 Nov 2014 08:46:08 -0500

To be honest LT, I never avoid any officer, even a brand new 2LT. Mind you, I was a PFC. If I did that, and an NCO saw me avoid that said 2LT, I would definitely be corrected. It would be a bad example set for me if I saw that same NCO avoid that one 2LT that I got counseled about that I initially avoided. What I feel is this: We are all taught from basic training to salute any officer that we see. As an NCO, he/she should set that example. Anyone who avoids an officer should be corrected.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Jan 8 at 2015 4:07 AM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 04:07:07 -0500

You should have gotten in his face sir. As an NCO I have gotten in the face of a fellow enlisted who failed to salute. Respect for rank is what makes the chain of command work.

Likewise, it works for officers who refuse to return the salute.

Response by SrA Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 8 at 2015 8:07 AM

SrA Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 08:07:40 -0500

reiterated sentiment

Response by SSgt Mike Ebben made Jan 8 at 2015 9:14 AM

SSgt Mike Ebben — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 09:14:12 -0500

Butters

Response by SSgt Mike Ebben made Jan 8 at 2015 9:32 AM

SSgt Mike Ebben — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 09:32:50 -0500

Why are you wearing sunglasses indoors?

Response by PO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 12:24 PM

PO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 12:24:23 -0500

I don't even know why you would avoid a salute. I used to enjoy saluting and never went out of my way to avoid doing so. It didn't matter the age or rank of the officer and I can't even imagine why it would.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 1:18 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:18:16 -0500

Get used to it. It happens a lot.

Response by PO2 Todd Voge made Feb 25 at 2015 1:38 PM

PO2 Todd Voge — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 13:38:39 -0500

I had no problem saluting the freshest of Ensign's to the saltiest of Admiral's. Sir, you have earned your rank and title and are deserving of the salute. This NCO you speak of has issues. Not a good way to show leadership. Carry on L.T. Thank you for joining up!

Response by SSG (ret) William Martin made Feb 25 at 2015 3:52 PM

SSG (ret) William Martin — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:52:48 -0500

I love young and new officers. I don't try to avoid them. I really take pride in showing them what is right.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 5:30 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:30:50 -0500

the enlisted problem is lack of pride in their profession, and on the officer side the problem is entitlement. With all do respect to all the officers here, none of you were born noblemen, and I didn't enlist in hopes to own private land, so when I salute an officer I'm not bowing down to his/her authority or class. We are members of the armed forces and we should salute/greet and return salutes/greetings with pride. As per our customs and traditions the lower ranking service member will initiate the salute/greeting, officer or enlisted. I made sure all my marines understood that saluting and giving the proper greeting of the day was our way to say we were professional warriors to each other, so I expected every single one to initiate salutes and greetings with pride. I never saw issues with saluting as lack of discipline, its a lack of leadership and pride.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 25 at 2015 8:53 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Feb 2015 20:53:38 -0500

Unfortunately, but usually not unfounded, Lieutenants have a stigma of knowing nothing but acting like we know everything and are above everyone else. Most people who would deliberately go out of their way to avoid saluting don't make it very far in the military. However we as lieutenants also need to be aware of the stigma attached to us and make sure that we don't come across that way. It's the only way the stigma will change.

Response by MSgt Jim Pollock made Feb 26 at 2015 3:53 PM

MSgt Jim Pollock — Thu, 26 Feb 2015 15:53:44 -0500

Funny story. As a new Airman, I attended follow-on training at a base that also conducted pilot training. As such, there were plenty of young lieutenants around.

Back then, during our first weeks out of basic, we were pretty restricted and required to be in uniform anytime we left our quarters.

To entertain ourselves, a bunch of us new Airmen would wander around base "hunting" officers to salute.

It was silly, but in retrospect, the game was borne of excitement over our newly earned privilege to render the hand salute. If we all remembered that saluting is an honor granted only to our military fraternity, I think this problem would disappear.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 3 at 2016 11:27 AM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 03 Mar 2016 11:27:22 -0500

When I was a Captain serving at NSB Bangor, it was common for sailors to take evasive action or avert their eyes to avoid rendering a salute. One of the Sergeants in my company saw a sailor do this with me. He snatched up the sailor and asked me if I had a minute. He then placed the sailor in front of me and explained to the sailor that when the sailor averted his eyes and went out of his way, that I would form a false impression that I was a god and that sailors would burst into flames if I were to let my eyes and attention rest on them too long. He further explained that the last thing we needed on base was officers that believed they could set enlisted men afire simply by meeting their eyes and saluting them. All three of us had a good laugh, the sailor apologized, I accepted the apology, we exchanged salutes, and life went on. Marines like a little friendly messing with sailors. It caught on with the Marine NCOs to get sailors to render salutes to both Navy and Marine officers. It took about six months but the military courtesy improved greatly. The exchange of salutes is common courtesy amongst brothers and sisters at arms. When the senior returns that salute he is showing that he recognizes and respects you as well. If people do not want the military customs and traditions they should join the US postal service.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 9 at 2016 10:46 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Mar 2016 10:46:34 -0500

I have experienced just the opposite. I've had PVTs cross the street just so they could salute me. I've seen a group of PVTs intentionally spread out into a long line so that I had to salute each individual instead of the group. I had one E5 that was virtually a stalker looking for opportunities to salute me. He would pop out from the corner of a building with a "good morning, sir". One time he even saluted me as we passed on the sidewalk, then sprinted around the building so he could pass me again. It became like a game. He'd try to salute me as many times as possible during the day and I would try to avoid it.

Response by SPC Justin Foster made Apr 13 at 2017 11:29 AM

SPC Justin Foster — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:29:03 -0400

Honest answer.. get over it. Your feelings will be hurt much more severely than that multiple times in your career.

Response by PO3 John Keas made Apr 13 at 2017 11:29 AM

PO3 John Keas — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:29:58 -0400

Truth is a lot of enlisted have had a LOT of bad experiences with O1 and O2 officers. Doesn't matter the branch. We understand that we HAVE to respect and salute you guys because those are the rules, but sometimes the "Butter Bars" just think because they are officers that means they are gods and they know all. It gets frustrating when we know our jobs and some "snot nosed kid" fresh out of the Academy comes up and starts barking orders like they are a senior officer.

I know it isn't all O1s and O2s...in fact I have met some great ones. Just like any other group, it doesn't take much to sour your opinion.

I personally never tried to duck a salute, but have gotten chewed out by an Ensign because I didn't drop what I was carrying and salute him once (was a bulky box and had to carry with 2 hands). I didn't argue tho, just apologized and went on about my business.

Response by TSgt Tommy Amparano made Apr 13 at 2017 11:31 AM

TSgt Tommy Amparano — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:31:18 -0400

Not sure why someone would hide like a child to avoid a salute especially an NCO. If it was as blatant you say, I would definitely have hurried to his car and ask him for directions to the BX or something. This way he not only has to salute you, but he has to get out of his car as well.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2017 11:47 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:47:55 -0400

I'm sorry that happened to you LT. Its not about you. Its about him. He obviously doesn't get it. I can't say that there were never officers that I didn't want to salute, but it had nothing to do with their rank. I would never have gone out of my way.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2017 11:50 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:50:23 -0400

What do you mean, "how did you handle it" what is there to handle? It is that NCO's prerogative if he wants to walk around the entire base to avoid you. Unless he walked right next to you, made eye contact and still did not render a salute, he's not breaking any regulation or protocol by walking around the parking-lot. Do you really not have anything better to worry about as an Air Force Officer? Did you stop, to think of the possibility, that he's avoiding you because you might be a douche? Nobody that I know of cares much for salute jockies.

Response by SSG Ray Murphy made Apr 13 at 2017 11:52 AM

SSG Ray Murphy — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 11:52:09 -0400

This may also be an indictment of that particular 2LT.

Response by PO1 John Miller made Apr 13 at 2017 12:03 PM

PO1 John Miller — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:03:54 -0400

I was taught in Boot Camp that if an Officer was across the street from you or more than whatever distance away from you, saluting was not required. I got yelled at in Boot Camp for saluting Officers across the street from me more than once.
Fast forward a few months when I hit the Fleet. I was walking up the pier to my ship, when a Captain from another ship was walking down the pier. He was over on the other side of the pier from me so I didn't salute him. Man did that piss him off.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2017 12:20 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 12:20:48 -0400

Very simple solution to fix this problem. Just walk over to his car and stand there until he arrives. He will not only walked an extra distance to get to his car, but will still end up rendering a salute once he make it to his car.

Once he makes it to his car, engage in conversation about why he decided it to be best to avoid saluting you.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Apr 13 at 2017 1:39 PM

CW4 Scott Hyde — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 13:39:46 -0400

Did you talk to this NCO and mentor him? Did you get all of the facts or only assume he was avoiding a salute?

Response by SGT Ron Egan made Apr 13 at 2017 5:31 PM

SGT Ron Egan — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:31:59 -0400

Respect is earned, not given. I have seen men avoid officers when I was in. Not to get out of saluting, but because the officer was a dickhead. I have also seen, and have, hollered across a parade field to get an officers attention and render a salute at 100 yards. Even to some butter bars. So, my opinion, either the NCO is a jack wad, or, with all due respect sir, you need to evaluate just what type of and officer your are. I have served with officers that I would follow to hell and back. And I have served with officers that it's probably good we never went into combat. You don't have to be their friend, but you better be a leader. Sir.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Apr 13 at 2017 5:37 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 17:37:19 -0400

As a Warrant I always tried to show the curtsey to our LT's, it also set the example to my NCO's that if I do it, you better as well.

Response by Sgt Wayne Ariss made Apr 13 at 2017 7:30 PM

Sgt Wayne Ariss — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:30:28 -0400

I was stationed at Elmendorf AFB back in the early 1980's---a lowly AB when I got there, a lowly A1C when I left. I was walking towards a bus stop one afternoon and was watching some construction work being done in an adjacent field; wasn't paying any attention to anyone else on the sidewalk. I was stopped by a young female 2nd lieutenant, who accused me of deliberately ignoring her so I wouldn't have to salute. I denied this, but she wasn't listening. She reamed my behind for a full ten minutes, warned me that next time, she would take more stringent action, and then left in a huff. From that point forward, if I encountered anybody on the sidewalk and was unsure of their rank or status, I saluted them---sometimes they turned out to be NCO's, a few airmen here and there, and probably at least one civilian, but I'd had enough screaming paroxysms of rage being brought down on my head---I wasn't about to chance another one. I would have saluted dogs, phone poles, and mailboxes to avoid that sort of nonsense, believe me.

Response by MSgt Billy McDonough made Apr 13 at 2017 7:50 PM

MSgt Billy McDonough — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 19:50:15 -0400

Have a chat with your Shirt. I think you'll find he will be glad you help you out.

Response by SGT Eugene Loggins made Apr 13 at 2017 10:51 PM

SGT Eugene Loggins — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:51:22 -0400

There is a fine line between military values and personal values. In many cases these values overlap. However, observe which one a veteran gives up upon discharge. In a way of life (military) that demands you give up so much, it is moot and devicesive to speculate on the soldier's motives. Give him an inch of choice in an otherwise regulated industry. Each of us have a right to dislike another regardless of it's merit. He did not violate a regulation, he merely sidestepped it. A skill we all must learn in order to think outside the box and avoid rigidity in life. Contrastly, I prefer staggering soldiers enough to make an officer salute repeatedly as punishment.

Response by MSgt Darren VanDerwilt made Apr 13 at 2017 10:56 PM

MSgt Darren VanDerwilt — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 22:56:25 -0400

Seems like "fresh new 22-year-old LT" could find a bigger fish to fry. I've seen this type of officer before, the world revolves around them and their self esteem. Man up butter bar! Confront the jack-hole about it or shut up. For goodness sake don't post your mewlings here.

Response by PO1 RIchard Petty made Apr 14 at 2017 3:02 AM

PO1 RIchard Petty — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 03:02:15 -0400

Lt., if I was still in and saw you I would salute no matter what kind a day I had and wouldn't care if you was a BOOTER. But a funny story to this a long time ago when I was stationed at Souda Bay, Crete the Air Force showed up for tanker support for the bombing in Kosovo; well any ways a few us junior enlisted guys were caring long arms(M16, M14, 12 Gauge) and the proper way to salute an officer is to present arms, well a few times we would space out to where you O's would have to hold your salute and there was usually like 6 of us; well after a while you guys caught on and would space out and we would have to hold the present arms for a bit. My advice LT take it with a grain of salt move one you will experience stupid shit and that is one of them. If it bothers you that much confront said NCO and ask him why he avoided you.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Apr 14 at 2017 3:39 PM

Jerry Rivas — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 15:39:14 -0400

Back in 74, I was going through Armor AIT (19E) and a buddy and I were carrying this HUGE coffee pot. As we were walking down the sidewalk, the coffee pot was in my right hand and we wer approached by a Major General. My buddy saluted and I stood there with a confused look on my face, The General said, Private Rivas, I dont have the faintest idea of how you would render a salute under coffee pot. I think your buddy here covered it for both of you, Just the thought that you were wondering what to do is sufficient for me. Carry on men. Good guy .

Response by MSgt Thunder One made Apr 14 at 2017 5:33 PM

MSgt Thunder One — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 17:33:38 -0400

I think the reason eludes you because most NCO's have spent more time on the toilet than you have in the military, their morning bowel movement deserves more respect than any LT . . .1st or 2nd. Sadly we live in a world where people think that if one endures five years of college and binge drinking for that coveted PE/Liberal Arts/General Studies degree it somehow makes them more qualified to lead, assume greater responsibilities and command . . . hate to be the truth teller here, not even close. Over my 20 year career I watched officers commit most of the most bizarre and irresponsible offenses, everything from theft using their government credit cards, sleeping with enlisted wives (both married and unmarried officers) and even when given a no contact order, the Major still got caught again, the female Airman mowing his lawn in a bikini on base housing !! I saw mishandling and loss of classified, desk drawer LOR's for 6 or more weight management failuresand so much more - commanders/group commanders and wing commanders perfectly happy to attempt to bury it all as the boys club . . . just being boys and all under the delusion an officers career is worth more than an enlisted person. Meanwhile, enlisted career were being ended for the most minor offenses . . . and treated like they were a federal offense. I take great joy in telling you I reported and filed complaints against these officers each and every time I could. Bottom line, 3 years in the 1st Sergeants seat and you really get to see the hypocrisy and behind the curtain to see the clowns who are merely leading people all because of a piece of paper, absent any proven skills, after all, a pulse and a lack of a federal conviction and you are assured a promotion to Major . . .we test every single NCO promotion. I was in a staff meeting and had a LT think he was going to correct me, I was a MSgt at the time, by the time I got finished dressing him down as the nerdy no-nothing idiot he really was but failed to grasp the reality of it you could hear a pin drop . . . . not one officer/commander/CMSgt said a word to me about it. LT's are NOT respected, only tolerated as the necessary evil of spawning off some worthless major. What made me realize it was time for me to retire, saw a Major sleeping with an enlisted mans wife, when it was elevated up the chain, they ended up taking action against the enlisted troop, rightfully outraged that this officer thought his actions appropriate as well as his O-club wingmen. All that said, next time you see a NCO walk an extra half a mile to avoid paying respect to someone who doesn't deserve it, I will leave you with what I once heard a Production Super tell a LT in a maintenance meeting, the LT make the sad mistake of telling the SMSgt that rank has its privilege . . ., the SMSgt look him right in the eye and said "when you get some rank, then you'll get some privilege" !! While many will feed you some eye wash that the NCO is a poor example, understand that as a SSgt I supervised more people, was responsible for more in assets than any LT I ever met over my entire 20 plus year career . . . it should be YOU who salutes the NCO . . . they have actually earned it . . . . you haven't.

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 14 at 2017 9:01 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Apr 2017 21:01:08 -0400

laugh.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2018 4:07 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 22 Dec 2018 16:07:10 -0500

Well it IS the Air Force after all!
Just kidding ...

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2019 4:25 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:25:55 -0400

Maybe the NCO just wanted to get his steps in for his fit bit and decided to take the longer route to his car. You never know. Don’t take it personal. I’ve had officers tell me NOT to salute because they were tired of saluting. LOL so keep in mind you may have days you will be tired of saluting us too.

Response by CPT Michael Moffeit made Aug 30 at 2019 4:58 PM

CPT Michael Moffeit — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 16:58:12 -0400

I certainly didn't post about it online. Here's what you do:
Is the Airman in question a direct subordinate? If yes, then correct them. If no, move on with your life. You may even be mistaken, maybe the NCO had other things in his mind than saluting you.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 30 at 2019 5:51 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 17:51:51 -0400

Don’t be butt hurt if they don’t, respect is earned. I’ve saluted almost 100 enlisted personnel as an officer that help shaped the what the Great US Army is today.

Response by SGM Patrick Kirby made Aug 30 at 2019 8:54 PM

SGM Patrick Kirby — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 20:54:31 -0400

Not cool

Response by SSG Mark Matteson made Aug 30 at 2019 10:51 PM

SSG Mark Matteson — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 22:51:48 -0400

Sounds personal, from both angles.

Response by LTJG Richard Bruce made Aug 30 at 2019 11:11 PM

LTJG Richard Bruce — Fri, 30 Aug 2019 23:11:59 -0400

It's arrogance on the NCO's part to think new O-1's should not be publically afforded a proper salute. Not all O-1's are fresh or 90 day wonders. Junior officers come from all ways of life and some have more years in uniform than most NCO's. Also, it presents a poor example of junior enlisted on reinforcing traditions taught in recruit training.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2019 11:30 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 11:30:19 -0400

It actually took more discipline to do what this NCO did then to simply salute the officer. It is very childish behavior and personnel going through this much trouble to avoid a salute should re evaluate why they are even in the military. The salute is a sign of respect for both officers and enlisted personnel. We should render a salute with pride, in reflection of who we are as professionals.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 31 at 2019 5:28 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 17:28:48 -0400

And I have witnessed a 1st Lieutenant fill his arms with unnecessary items when we left the office on Bagram to.avoid saluting anyone on Disney.

Response by SSgt Milkstopher Tripp made Aug 31 at 2019 6:03 PM

SSgt Milkstopher Tripp — Sat, 31 Aug 2019 18:03:57 -0400

I used to do the exact opposite. I was like a heat-seaking missile, snaking my way through every parking, trying to salute as many officers as possible. Sometimes, I'd try to power walk in loops, to salute the same person 3 or 4 times before they could reach the door.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2019 12:02 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 12:02:21 -0400

Going out of the way to not salute is childish, just like jumping thru a door so you don't have to stand and salute for colors.

Response by 1SG Charles Buzzatto made Sep 2 at 2019 7:49 AM

1SG Charles Buzzatto — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 07:49:25 -0400

Maybe for the simple fact that you have to cry out on social media about such things is not the reason why he avoided you. Hummmmmm

Response by Cpl Bernard Bates made Dec 21 at 2019 11:45 PM

Cpl Bernard Bates — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 23:45:31 -0500

When you are saluting an officer no matter what rank you salute his or hers rank as a sign of respect. you are not saluting the individual. In my day in the Marine corp. Not saluting or avoiding an officer earned you a 1st. class a--chewing. If the 1sgt. found out about it their would be his discipline. I can't imagine and NCO. not saluting. The Army had different rules for saluting you saluted indoors without a cover on your head. In the Marine Corp you only saluted indoors when you had a duty belt on and had your cover on your head. If a Marine approached a Marine officer without the officer,s cover on the officer would not salute back. Thats the way it was back in the early 60,s. Semper Fi.