Awards(MILPER 17-095):New C Device Not for MSM because that's NOT awarded under combat conditions as of 2016. Any conversion to Bronze Star?

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 12:41:16 -0400

MILPER 17-095:
"g. As a point of clarification, the Meritorious Service Medal (MSM) and BSM are equivalent awards; the BSM is for combat conditions, and the MSM is for non-combat conditions." So can we get those retroactively switched around then? Give the officers who never left the FOB an MSM; and those constantly in harms way a Bronze Star? Anybody looking into this?

Response by MSG David Rogers III made Apr 12 at 2017 1:27 PM

MSG David Rogers III — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 13:27:28 -0400

Whats done is done, to go retroactive would create a massive administrative burden on the military because of the thousands that have already been awarded. But hopefully, this will fix the future. Nothing is foolproof, there will still be abuse of the system, but at least its a step in the right direction.

The most important word in that excerpt, is the word "equivalent". Nobody ever believed that before. Folks would say their BSM was downgraded to an MSM. Impossible, as they are equivalent. A BSM downgrades to an ARCOM. An MSM downgrades to an ARCOM. If someone is put in for a BSM, but the command would rather award an MSM, the original paperwork is torn up, and re-written as an MSM.

But even that is un-official. If I recommend you for a BSM, the only person who can disapprove or downgrade it is the approving authority, in this case, a Major General. Others in the chain can recommend a downgrade, but not disapprove. The problem is, that if it gets to the top and the MG decides its not strong enough, he downgrades it to an ARCOM, he cannot change it to an MSM.

I am hoping that this "equivalent" word will settle a lot of misconceptions and fix this situation. By the way, the Air Medal is equivalent with these awards as well, along with the Defense Meritorious Service Medal. They are all Tier 4 awards, 3 levels below the Medal of Honor. One should be happy with the receipt of any of these four medals. Don't get hung-up on the Order of Precedence.

Response by SFC John Hill made Apr 12 at 2017 8:06 PM

SFC John Hill — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 20:06:24 -0400

From AR 600-8-22 Military Awards 25 June 2015
3–16. Meritorious Service Medal
c. Effective 11 September 2001 to a date to be determined, the DCS, G–1 granted an exception to policy to award the MSM in a combat theater for noncombat meritorious achievement and service for the Global War on Terrorism era. This exception does not authorize the MSM to be used as an upgrade or downgrade to or from a recommended BSM.
d. An MSM recommendation that is downgraded will be approved as an ARCOM.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Apr 12 at 2017 9:39 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Wed, 12 Apr 2017 21:39:14 -0400

This is a new one on me, but I just retired last year. My thoughts...when I first joined the Army the Medal of Honor needed a recommendation and two witness statements (I entered active duty in 1982). Not that I ever did anything to ever remotely be considered for it, but I saw how the CAB, BSM, and other awards had requirements above what the MOH needed. Now I may be old school but what is wrong with that picture?

Response by COL Charles Williams made Apr 13 at 2017 12:38 AM

COL Charles Williams — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 00:38:39 -0400

SFC Private RallyPoint Member No... never... as you would to go back to WWII. Glen Miller got a BSM... Is that what would you do as the CSA?

The BSM, unlike the MSM, ARCOM, AAM is only a combat award... I was an officer in combat more than once, in Somalia, Iraq and Afghanistan, and I left the FOBs daily as both a Commander and Staff Officer ... I should have gotten a CAB in Somalia as we mortared, and took direct fire on many occasions... Should I not have gotten the BSM? In OIF 6-8 our TOC took direct and indirect fire regularly for 15 months... That does not rate a BSM for FOBBITs over the MSM? I had a Soldier killed on a FOB in his bed... and another wounded in a chow line... MSM-C? I had NCOs in my BDE who worked in the BDE TOC, and never left the TOC who were mad they didn't get the BSM; they expected it, as it had become the norm... Are you advocating BSMs be switched to MSMs with a C? I suspect many Soldiers in our units think I didn't deserve many awards...

Let me tell you a few war stories... as awards equity is not a new issue.

- I am a new Scout Platoon Leader in 1985... My PSG was two time Vietnam Vet... He served with the 11th ACR , saw enemy contact often and had more than one M113 destroyed... He left theater and got a warm handshake. Then, he went back, never saw the enemy, and when he out processed from 1 ID he got a BSM and a CIB... Unit policies and Commanders often drive these issues.

- Desert Storm... 1st Real Big War since, Vietnam.... Many Commanders went crazy as they thought, this may our only time to give combat awards... Some divisions used the "you have to be Major or above to get a BSM" rule... Others went simply nuts.... I went to grad to school with an Infantry Captain who was the BMO for the 3rd Battalion, of the 3rd Brigade, or 3rd Armored Division who sported a CIB and BSM like he took down the Republican Guard on his own. I also went to school with an Infantry Captain who was a Company Commander in that same Division's lead company, of the lead battalion, of the lead brigade, and he told me by the time the 3rd Armored Division rolled trough, the 24th ID and the ACRs has killed everything that airpower and artillery had not... Where do you draw the line? He did not even fire his Bradley... He just dealt with EPWs...

- Operation Allied Force... Air Force Officers in Aviano Air Base... controlling sorties... Not flying them... getting the BSM... This would be good use of the MSM-R...

Good question, but where to start and stop...?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 13 at 2017 8:57 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 Apr 2017 08:57:03 -0400

Ain't no way the Army will review a decade and a half of combat decorations for change. It just isn't going to happen.
Frankly, I think that the change to "C" and "R" devices is in response to the perception of awards inflation and disparate standards between units.
I for one earned a BSM the old-fashioned way, and it has the V to go with it.
I busted my tail on four different deployments, all of which had significant results to justify a high level award. I wound up with two MSMs, an ARCOM, and a JSCM to show for those, and I'd have to say the two that I worked harder on were the less recognized ones. Never once was put in for a BSM for service... and I am just fine with that.

I have been involved in awards pretty intimately for most of my 24 years in service, and if I can leave you with one observation: if you stay in long enough, it all evens out in the wash. Sometimes you get more than you "deserve", others you get less. If that is what you're focused on, you need to take a hard look inwards and do an inventory of what Selfless Service means to you.

Response by COL Brian Shea made Apr 15 at 2017 4:45 PM

COL Brian Shea — Sat, 15 Apr 2017 16:45:13 -0400

This is a hot button for me, mainly because of my last deployment. It was with a GO command (BG) in Kuwait. 95% of the unit never left Arifjan, and 3% of the rest stayed in Kuwait a little farther north. When award time rolls around one of the (other) senior officers makes the comment "All of the O-6's should get BSMs". They did, with one exception. As did several others who never left Arifjan. As to the other 2% that actually deployed into harm's way there was no consideration for anything but an MSM tops, and most were lower. Have never seen such a blatant example of favoritism. Hell, the HHC Cdr, 1SG and the CG's Aide got BSMs. IMHO you don't wear IBA or carry a weapon, it's an MSM. Period. COL(R)

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2017 5:01 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:01:50 -0400

MSM should not have been awarded in theater to begin with.

Response by CH (MAJ) Mark Diddle made Apr 15 at 2017 5:55 PM

CH (MAJ) Mark Diddle — Sat, 15 Apr 2017 17:55:41 -0400

Awards, who gets what, why, when etc has always been an issue for many. I've received a certain level award because of my rank. I've also received awards based off my service without regards to my rank.

As a PL, my driver and I drove up on a burning tent at a range with two PVTs (range guards) inside. My driver called range control and I helped the two PVTs out of the tent and we all extinguished the fire. My driver and I received AAMs and my BC explained to me it was an AAM because I was an LT and that's just what LTs get as awards. As part of GWOT, while working in a MAJ slot as a CPT in a Corps HQ (02-03 Afghanistan) I was surprised with a BSM (meritorious). I had a MAJ jump all over me because I was only a CPT and therefore should never have been given or accepted a BSM while later in Iraq I was given an ARCOM and had the XO explain why I was put in for that instead of the BSM was because I was a CPT (he did get a BSM yet refused to leave the FOB except for R&R and to return home) though I spent about two weeks a month on a FOB, was in convoys that received fire, in helicopters that were fired at etc. I can give more personal examples.

I can be mad, make comments about the fairness or unfairness of awards, the award system or individuals who received or didn't receive certain awards. But honestly, would that change any award or how they're given/earned? I like my ribbons, medals, patches, tabs and awards as they are and it isn't the piece of medal or cloth I care about. All they are to me is a conversation starter. Ask me about one of my rewards and i will tell you about the studs, heroes and amazing Americans whom I was privileged to serve with. Each piece of color on my uniform isn't about something I did or got. It is about being a soldier, serving with soldiers and it's those soldiers I served with that helped me in a walk. And if you want to ask me what I brag about, what I'm proud of I will first show you pictures of my wife and daughters and how proud I am of them and of a God who sustained me beyond what I could do alone.

If there is one award I wish the Army would come out with and i would ask for it would be an award that said I had an amazing family who endured with me, sometimes for me and allowed me to be a soldier.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 15 at 2017 6:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 15 Apr 2017 18:49:10 -0400

I have five ARCOMs. Of those, three are "PCS awards" and two are end of tour awards for service in Iraq. One of those was written up recommending a BSM and was downgraded to an ARCOM. The 4ID CG had a policy during that tour that end of tour awards could only be ARCOMs or BSMs. No MSMs or AAMs were allowed. As a SGT, I was the NCOIC for my battalion's S6 shop. I was responsible for providing S6 support to the six companies in my battalion, the battalion staff, and any unit on COB Speicher that didn't have organic S6 support. Additionally, my shop was responsible for maintaining AFN TV for the entire COB and maintaining the radios in all of the observation towers not located in the main COB entry control point. I did this job with a shop that was undermanned and under supplied. The BSM that my battalion CSM truly believed I deserved was downgraded to an ARCOM, despite the fact that I had the responsibilities of a SFC as a SGT. Meanwhile, there were SGTs in the band who were tasked out to MWR and they got BSMs. Do I care? Not really. Know why? Because I really don't care what some two star who didn't see my work on a daily basis thinks of me. Those who knew/know me know what I did and just being nominated for such a prestigious award by them is more than enough appreciation for me. The other reason why I don't care that the award got downgraded is because I also have seven AAMs. Yes, I have a ribbon with one silver and one bronze OLC. One of them is a "PCS award." One was given to me by my battalion CSM for standing up almost all of the battalion's automations assets, essentially by myself, when said battalion moved from Hood to Carson in '09. I'm really proud of that award. I got another one in '13 for work that I did at Bliss and White Sands Missile Range in support of Network Integrated Evaluation tests. Yeah, gotta admit that that one, like the "PCS award," is bull hockey. I got another AAM in '14 for winning a battalion NCO of the Quarter board. I'm kinda proud of that one. One more I'm proud of came in '15 when I worked with the director of education for the Signal Corps museum on Gordon and my company XO to implement a plan to get some training percentages raised from about 5% to 95%. My last two AAMs are not even worth mentioning because I think they're also bull hockey. So what am I saying in all of this? I'm glad you asked. Have I had an award downgraded that maybe shouldn't have been? I don't know. Perhaps. But, I've also had more than my share of "upgraded" recognition. In the end, it really doesn't matter. What does matter is that my job gets done and my troops get taken care of. Those who know me know what I do and, I assure you, they give me all of the thanks and recognition that I need.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 20 at 2017 8:17 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Oct 2017 08:17:03 -0400

But why?

Response by SSG Michael Raysses made Apr 18 at 2018 5:37 AM

SSG Michael Raysses — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 05:37:39 -0400

Ok guys/gals.... the MSM is completely DIFFERENT than the BS.... an MSM, denotes quality above And BEYOND said duties within a garrison type mission... the BS/SS gave way more "IN HARMS WAY" manisfestations behind those awards.... bottom line?... one just says you did an EXCELLENT JOB, in your MOS... the other two?... that you WERE NUTS in combat.... proven under fire.... and?... you were lucky you weren't killed!... HOOAH?...SSG Mike Raysses, USAR-Ret...

Response by SP5 Gary Smith made Apr 18 at 2018 9:55 AM

SP5 Gary Smith — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 09:55:15 -0400

In the Nom day’s, the unwritten rule was that everyone got a medal. Enlisted got an Army Commendation and officers got a Bronze Star.

Response by SSG Ron McLane made Apr 18 at 2018 11:35 AM

SSG Ron McLane — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 11:35:03 -0400

I have seen the BSM given out to officers for no reason Desert Storm huge abuser of this.
I also know Vets who got it due to Valor which it should be.
It's not a participation trophy but since Desert Storm it is

Response by SSG Jonathan Glab made Apr 18 at 2018 3:32 PM

SSG Jonathan Glab — Wed, 18 Apr 2018 15:32:35 -0400

This should not even be a discussion
The adjutant should have quoted the regulation to the recommender and kicked the award back and resubmitted as a bsm

Response by PO1 Richard Borowski made Apr 20 at 2018 3:25 AM

PO1 Richard Borowski — Fri, 20 Apr 2018 03:25:25 -0400

I think that there is too much fuss over medals or awards now. You all volunteered to serve. Why do you need treats like a trained dog because you did your job? I'll admit the top 3 awards are really worthwhile, but a "I was there" award, I think< is a waste of time and money.

Response by SFC Michael Litaker made Apr 20 at 2018 10:15 AM

SFC Michael Litaker — Fri, 20 Apr 2018 10:15:25 -0400

In my view the BSM should only be awarded for heroism. It has been overawarded during recent conflicts and is mostly passed out due to rank and position held. My view of this which some may not agree with is we have campaign medals and if u served in that campaign you get one. If you did your job every day and nothing over and above I see no reason to award other medals especially ones like the BSM that were meant for heroism. Just my 2 cents. I never deployed to get a medal and unfortunately it has become the stlandard to give everyone a medal for showing up

Response by CMSgt Walt Be made Apr 20 at 2018 2:05 PM

CMSgt Walt Be — Fri, 20 Apr 2018 14:05:24 -0400

The majority of the BSMs awarded are based on political considerations and inflated self driven mission considerations. Lower enlisted grades rarely get equivalent recognition for the exact same combat exposure and mission details. Most of the time the troops E7 and above are strap hangers with no real mission purpose, but insert themselves out of ignorance or a desire to get a BSM.

Response by SGT Bill Nazario made Apr 21 at 2018 1:21 PM

SGT Bill Nazario — Sat, 21 Apr 2018 13:21:46 -0400

Let's just give out purple hearts for paper cuts

Response by SGT Shayne Stowe made Apr 23 at 2018 9:31 AM

SGT Shayne Stowe — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 09:31:29 -0400

Sounds good to me

Response by MSG Ismael Veguilla made Apr 23 at 2018 9:33 PM

MSG Ismael Veguilla — Mon, 23 Apr 2018 21:33:44 -0400

So are those with a MSM and CAB given in theater will be converted to a BSM?

Response by SGT Ben Parrish made Apr 24 at 2018 6:32 PM

SGT Ben Parrish — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 18:32:05 -0400

On April 18, 2008 my uparmored hwmmv was destroyed by a dbied north of Baghdad I was put in for a BSM by my command and approved all the way up to Brigade, then found out it was down graded to a MSM for non combat by the MNCI commander, I guess I was on vacation running missions out of TAJI.

Response by MSG Mark Stinson made Apr 24 at 2018 8:06 PM

MSG Mark Stinson — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 20:06:27 -0400

I was awarded both one with a V and then one for service. It would be great to change the BS service and trade it for the MSM.

Response by SSG Daniel McHenry made Apr 24 at 2018 9:16 PM

SSG Daniel McHenry — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 21:16:59 -0400

I, as a PFC/SPC, conducted Combat Operations every day for 15 months. I busted my ass for my brothers. On return the THE States, I received an AARCOM, antthe Supply NCO Received an MSM. What a joke. Meritorious Service my ass, I begged for those hydration bladders you threw in the dumpster OIF2

Response by SGT Phelan Hoover made Apr 24 at 2018 11:39 PM

SGT Phelan Hoover — Tue, 24 Apr 2018 23:39:15 -0400

There are officers who would get the bronze service star for just deploying. My rear detachment commander only spending a couple of months in Iraq, getting the bronze service star. While I was filling an E-7 position as an E-5, because the E-6 for a differant company took 3 days what took me to do in three hours. I was awarded an AAM instead of the Arcom medal, no big deal. Taking on the chain of command as a E-5 is no small feat. What I am saying is the medals and award systems needs some refurbishing across the board. MSM, rear detachment is what I always heard and peaceful mission operations overseas. Then the bronze star over seas combat country areas was standard. For the officers who get awarded these medals, should ashamed of themselves, the ones who never put there lives in danger and get the same treatment. Those are the things that make enlisted more willing to go get an education outside of the military. Then, serve there country when seeing this dysfunction, is staring them right in the face and nothing changes.

Response by MSG John Duchesneau made Apr 25 at 2018 12:43 AM

MSG John Duchesneau — Wed, 25 Apr 2018 00:43:15 -0400

Nice thought but its not going to happen. (Full disclosure - I received an "inside the wire" BSM.)

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2018 8:53 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Apr 2018 20:53:28 -0400

I watched guys who lost there buddy only get an ARCOM and then I saw every staff NCO and officers got a bronze star my dad got a bronze star for being shot down in Vietnam not for sitting behind a desk in bagram or Kuwait I think they have turned the awards system into a joke

Response by SSG Gilbert Duran made Apr 25 at 2018 11:55 PM

SSG Gilbert Duran — Wed, 25 Apr 2018 23:55:10 -0400

I got a award that qualifies to be on my license plate and is pretty high in precedence but nobody gives a shit the orders just sit up in my closet.

Response by CSM Patrick Durr made Apr 26 at 2018 1:10 AM

CSM Patrick Durr — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:10:48 -0400

stop worrying about others awards, continue to serve with honor, because you want to. Every award received is mutually exclusive, none has anything to do with any other.

Response by Sgt Michael Reyes made Apr 26 at 2018 1:54 AM

Sgt Michael Reyes — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 01:54:35 -0400

I didn’t serve in the US Army, but instead I served in combat as a US Marine with the 1st Marine Division.

The Bronze Star Medal is a decoration not easily obtained in the USMC. As a Marine, it is expected that our actions be valorous while engaged with an enemy. This is shown by the number of Presidential and Navy Unit Citations (which are awarded to units whose actions are equivalent to each member having shown at least valor and accomplishment at a Silver Star level of service... read the criteria if you question this).

I’m at a loss as to how many non-Marines earn Bronze Star medals for what a Marine would receive an “atta boy.”

Response by MSG Leroy Healy made Apr 26 at 2018 10:04 AM

MSG Leroy Healy — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 10:04:37 -0400

Gents I will leave the conversion of these awards to people smarter than myself. I can in the ARMY in 1975, the Bronze Star was for Valor only. It was converted sometime later for merit and the "V" device was added. What really bothers me is that on my very last deployment I had several lower enlisted and junior NCOs that were on the boss's PSD went out everyday and risked their lives, when it can to end of tour awards they where put up for Bronze Stars only to be told that they weren't of the right rank to receive them. I about lost my mind, what did rank have to do with it, it was their duty that got the recommended not their rank. My BDE CSM told mev to stand down or else that was bull crap and that is what I think of the Bronze Star that is not awarded for Valor. Nuf said.

Response by CW3 Richard King made Apr 26 at 2018 1:50 PM

CW3 Richard King — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 13:50:29 -0400

Ok so if you look at awards and read the regulations they are awards for actions and also based on responsibility. The purpose is so you done have a General with 100 ARCOMS, the legion of merit is a great example. The BSM is a war time MSM. It seems as though it has a stigma that if you received a BSM that a form of Valor is required. This is the misconception that causes most of this issue. If the actions are with valor in combat but beneath that of a Silver Star you would receive a BSM with a V device. Again the BSM is war time in theater MSM and is based on actions and responsibility level not Valor. On the FOB or off does not matter.

Response by SFC Bob Lilley made Apr 26 at 2018 6:07 PM

SFC Bob Lilley — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 18:07:24 -0400

None of the decorations should ve awarded just for showing up and doing your job.......

Response by SSG Thomas Locke made Apr 26 at 2018 9:57 PM

SSG Thomas Locke — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 21:57:09 -0400

The gulf war showed me a lot of disturbing views on awards,,I am ashamed to admit that black racism was prevalent in my unit,,dangerous missions were carried out by white soldiers, and told to navigate through mine fields without the help of the black officers or NCO's that were in charge. This was on a frequent basis. They were awarded combat citations,,,,combat medical badge and bronze stars,,this experience has changed my very core of my soul. Never again.....in the next 2 years the officer was promoted to captain and the nco to first sgt, from e-6. Both where awarded BSM...

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2018 11:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Apr 2018 23:14:54 -0400

I have to agree too many BSMs where given out just because of person rank during the war. This just the oldest story in the book for being in the army. If people would just follow what the regulations reads they would not run into these questions about awards.

Response by Cpl Kevin Stegman made Apr 27 at 2018 4:07 AM

Cpl Kevin Stegman — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 04:07:30 -0400

I spent 4 years in the Marine Corps from 1996 to 2000. I know that they don't hand out medals like "hotcakes." Seems like other branches of service do.

Response by CSM William Bottoms made Apr 27 at 2018 2:24 PM

CSM William Bottoms — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 14:24:09 -0400

Ignore this request, I discharged in December, 2001.

Response by 1SG Jason LaNier made Apr 27 at 2018 6:06 PM

1SG Jason LaNier — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 18:06:07 -0400

What is unfortunate is the FACT that when it coms to most awards, esspecially deployment awards, there is a cut-off number on how many of each higher awards can be given. These are not always given to the right guys who risk their necks every day and have higher responsibility as well like all platoon sergeants, first sergeants, and some squad leaders. Officers generally take care of their own, and every PL gets a BSM. But what burned me up was seeing Bn. TOC officers receiving BSM's before deserving NCO's, for the reason of "orchestrating the war". They sat their ass in a TOC, monitored radios and did administative tasks, wishing they could go out. In some cases, there were good reasons why these officers were not in command of a platoon or a company at the time. Mabe not all, but there were some, and they got rewarded for sitting behind a hesco wall; never getting dirty, and never having to fire their weapon.. They did well at what they needed to do, but it was worth maybe an ARCOM. Save the BSM for the ones who go above and beyond. If they can type out more than a page worth of additional accomplishments that were not required of their normal duties and they did go into the field, then and only then should they be considered.

Response by SGT Gregg Pimental made Apr 27 at 2018 8:59 PM

SGT Gregg Pimental — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 20:59:57 -0400

Wouldn’t matter anyway. Mine sit on an old green class A collecting dust in a closet.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 27 at 2018 10:16 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 27 Apr 2018 22:16:10 -0400

Let's hope those deserving receive what they earned

Response by MSG Robert Marietta made Apr 28 at 2018 8:05 AM

MSG Robert Marietta — Sat, 28 Apr 2018 08:05:00 -0400

As far as I can remember that’s why there was a V devise for valor issued with the award.

Response by SFC David Hullett made Apr 28 at 2018 10:29 AM

SFC David Hullett — Sat, 28 Apr 2018 10:29:43 -0400

Different day, new soldier, but the bullet stays the same for those outside the wire. The Bronze Star has lost it shine, I am sorry to say. I know many of soldiers in my day who deserved it. The bullet was real then too, and the life outside the wire just as deadly. Remember Somalia?

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2018 3:41 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 28 Apr 2018 15:41:27 -0400

Ive been on the enlisted side and officer side in combat, the awards system is unfair and downright stupid at times, no easy answers. I have both a BSM and 3 MSMs, but the hardest earned award was as an infantry squad leader in 04/05, an ARCOM. The same award that i got for stupid stuff. Regardless of what you got, you should know what you did and feel secure in that because the process will never be fair

Response by LtCol John Hennessey made Apr 28 at 2018 8:31 PM

LtCol John Hennessey — Sat, 28 Apr 2018 20:31:23 -0400

Our running joke when I was stationed at USTRANSCOM was that whenever we deployed an Army unit into a combat region, we had to send an extra C141 full of Bronze Star medals.
I concur, Bronze Star medals were meant to be awarded for valor in combat, hence the “V”.

Response by CSM David Draughn made Apr 29 at 2018 2:44 PM

CSM David Draughn — Sun, 29 Apr 2018 14:44:11 -0400

Folks, the liberal faction (everybody gets a trophy) is degrading our awards system. I was extremely lucky back in 1980. I received my first Meritorious Service Medal at the end of my tour with the 3ID.
I had SDNCO towards the end of my tour. The duty officer who I was on duty with had a habit as all Lieutenants did of rifling through the Squadron Commander’s “in box” on his desk. This officer found my award recommendation in the Commander’s box. He, like me, was nearing the end of his tour in Europe. I will always remember him telling me that evening that he saw the MSM recommendation written up for me. He explained to me in his “genius” way that I would not get the award because the MSM was an “officer’s award,” not one for “Sergeants.” He was then a 1LT who was my Platoon Leader for a short period of time before he politiced his way into becoming an XO in another company-sized unit in the battalion.
The guy was screwec up to say the least. The lies he told about his experiences in Ranger and Airborne School were enough to make me ill. He loved himself for sure. He thought he was the “Commander’s Boy” when he was my PL, or so he thought. His NCOs hated him as did his soldiers. He was a running joke around the unit.
Three years later, I ran into him at Ft Benning when he was stationed as a training company commander. He was in his Class “A” uniform and I could not help but notice that he did not have a MSM. Twelve years later, he wound up leaving the Army. He was one of the worst commissioned officers I ever knew. I’ve known some winners, too.
My point is, the cheapening of our awards comes from the officer corps. This crap reduces the value of one’s sacrifice that honestly earned this medal. Our awards system is broken, seriously.

Response by HN Private RallyPoint Member made May 3 at 2018 5:41 PM

HN Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 03 May 2018 17:41:04 -0400

Good to know. Planning to go division after my first command and be the corpsman of the grunts. Gonna eye for that equivalent.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 4 at 2018 2:53 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 04 May 2018 14:53:03 -0400

I completely agree with what is said, if you stayed in the safety of a FOB I personally believe the MSM is appropriate and not the BS I personally believe the MSM is appropriate not the BSM. When I was in the Marine Corps you would never see anybody like a supply sergeant get a BSM only because their service was in a combat zone. I’m not sure if it is still that way or not but giving them away to people that did not leave the wire or conduct any combat operations, in my mind devalues the award. Granted staying on the FOB you could be subject to mortar fire however, who is in more danger the infantry man who is going out there on patrols or capturing HVT‘s or the LT who is just monitoring what is going on and giving direction.

Response by LTC Charles Hamilton made May 5 at 2018 4:48 AM

LTC Charles Hamilton — Sat, 05 May 2018 04:48:43 -0400

I completely agree with Mr Tongret. I cannot believe the MSM was ever issued in a combat area. What sense does that make??

Response by SGT Nolan Rowley made May 5 at 2018 2:13 PM

SGT Nolan Rowley — Sat, 05 May 2018 14:13:35 -0400

OIF2 Downtown Baghdad. Over 500+ Convoys, and in harms-way nearly Daily. Direct and Indirectly. The Officers left the FOB with BSMs. Enlisted MSMs, and ARCOMS. After having 2 Purple Heart Ceremonies on FOB at end of the 365 days there.

Response by SSG Ken Potts made May 6 at 2018 7:54 AM

SSG Ken Potts — Sun, 06 May 2018 07:54:46 -0400

They are both bullshit awards, now. Thay are given due to rank.

Response by CPL John Spencer made May 7 at 2018 7:22 PM

CPL John Spencer — Mon, 07 May 2018 19:22:49 -0400

I had E-7's and up my last deployment that never left the fob, never engaged the enemy, never got hit by IEDs, or anything get the BSM. I understand rank has privileges, but come on.

When my dad was in Vietnam he worked his ass off in the jungle to get it. My buddy held a position and provided covering fire for his squad and he got an ARCOM with V because he was an E5.

Response by SPC Donald Wheeler made May 8 at 2018 3:05 PM

SPC Donald Wheeler — Tue, 08 May 2018 15:05:45 -0400

Why the Bronze Star ? Last I knew that was for heroism. Not just being there.

Response by SP6 Kevin Goodrich made May 8 at 2018 3:13 PM

SP6 Kevin Goodrich — Tue, 08 May 2018 15:13:30 -0400

I was a staff Sgt with the 210 armor nyng in desert storm I saw me put in for msn but was denied because I was a mp at mp camp 401

Response by CW3 John DiFelice made May 8 at 2018 6:36 PM

CW3 John DiFelice — Tue, 08 May 2018 18:36:12 -0400

The BSM has been watered down due to all the deployments and mostly Senior Officers getting them. I submitted one for my Recovery Sergeant for actions he took under fire to rescue a soldier from a truck struck by an IED because the medics froze, then he recovered the vehicle, they wouldn’t even allow me to get him a V device on an AAM

Response by SGT Darrin Creamer made May 8 at 2018 10:31 PM

SGT Darrin Creamer — Tue, 08 May 2018 22:31:26 -0400

So what are they going to do about it? I was given an MSM for my Iraq tour in 2006. I do agree that the BSM should be for Valor. I am the only NCOIC that got an MSM, everyone else got a BSM. I new a soldier who had a BSM and was not proud of it because he didn't feel like he deserved it. He said that he froze when incident happened and a senior officer grabbed him and told him to go help and he pulled a couple soldiers out of a burning tent. I feel like he deserved it but hey, that's just my opinion.

Response by Nicole Thomas made May 9 at 2018 2:30 PM

Nicole Thomas — Wed, 09 May 2018 14:30:27 -0400

I agree

Response by Nicole Thomas made May 9 at 2018 2:32 PM

Nicole Thomas — Wed, 09 May 2018 14:32:46 -0400

This is a question not a comment, but how do I acquire stolen medals of my dads?

Response by LTC Jim Tighe made May 9 at 2018 2:51 PM

LTC Jim Tighe — Wed, 09 May 2018 14:51:46 -0400

End-of-tour awards have become like candy on a tray for Halloween. Where Officers obviously must have the best costumes because they get the most candy. Generally speaking, medals hanging on someone's chest are essentially meaningless decorations today. There will always be those that will turn this into an Ad Hominem argument. It has happened here and it will always be made to be personal, simply look at the responses and you will easily see it. The most interesting part is the rank of those that most quickly turn to that tactic.

All it takes is to look at the chests of those past veterans or read the citations of the awards they received vice what is awarded today and I am sure you will note that the bar has been lowered. In my opinion, the real meaning is preserved in the memories of the people that were there at the time. The greatest combat awards that I received were the friendships of my Teammates, the sacrifices and heroism I witnessed, and that I was blessed to return to my family.

Response by SPC Jerrald Richerson made May 10 at 2018 12:46 AM

SPC Jerrald Richerson — Thu, 10 May 2018 00:46:55 -0400

I got sick of watching officers getting medals for simply doing their job. We had an XO get a bronze star for leading our convoy into Iraq. Hell got us lost twice.

Response by 1SG Robert Blackstone made May 10 at 2018 1:28 AM

1SG Robert Blackstone — Thu, 10 May 2018 01:28:31 -0400

It’s pretty messed up officers and others into a country for 10 minutes or awarded metals When others spend a lifetime there.

Response by SSG Michael Raysses made May 10 at 2018 1:48 AM

SSG Michael Raysses — Thu, 10 May 2018 01:48:26 -0400

Hey guys?.... can we just LEAVE THIS ALONE???... you get SPECIFIED AWARDS for SPECIFIED ACCOMPLISHMENTS!!!.. to the zero who never LEAVES the garrison area, why is he/she even GETTING an "MSM"???... but for the trooper AKWAYS leaving and going out on patrols.... getting shot at, and staying OUT THERE???... they deserve the REAL AWARDS!!!.. in my twenty four career, I racked up 13 medals/ribbons.... and only THREE of them are PERSONAL NON COMBAT AWARDS... the Arcomm... the ar-Chieve, and my Navy Com... the rest are UNIT AWARDS.... which means everybody in the unit gets one.... let's STOP all the glamorized BULLSHIT behind who gets what!!!... if you rate it... GREAT!.... if not?.... TOUGH SHIT!!... HOOAH??...SSG Mike Raysses 92-G-30 USAR, Ret.

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made May 10 at 2018 3:21 AM

SSG Robert Perrotto — Thu, 10 May 2018 03:21:59 -0400

how can I say this tactfully? nope - cant - the award system is as fucked up as a soup sandwich - yes - I get that field grade officers have a lot on their plate - but c mon man - a BSM to the toc LT's? Arcoms to the squad and team leaders who went out on missions? I can't - ive been out for three years and this still hits a raw nerve, from glory hunting officers deliberately looking to get in the shit, not because it was the mission, but because they wanted the CIB - had one Capt. literally run to a tower fire his weapon indiscriminately while we were taking indirect fire, then submit himself for a CIB at Zangabad - I witnessed this as my platoon was on QRF to man towers and it was the tower I was currently in to forward information to the TOC - thankfully he was the XO of the company and the company commander told him to pound sand - but this shit happened and probably is still happening - to just plain "good ole boy" cliques taking care of their officers.

Response by SFC James Welch made May 10 at 2018 6:28 PM

SFC James Welch — Thu, 10 May 2018 18:28:57 -0400

Combat Awards should only be awarded for actually being under fire. MSM is a non-Combat Award given for exceptional Service in non - Combat Conditions. During Vietnam, Senior Officers were given Silver Stars for flying over a Combat Operation at 10,000 feet. Everyone knows whether or not they deserved the awards they received. Many are just punching tickets and avoid Combat at all costs. No Combat, no Medal, period!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2018 9:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 10 May 2018 21:43:31 -0400

I have proudly served on active duty starting in 1978, Army reserve as a drill sgt and then the National Gaurd until present. I have been a 1SG and wanted stay in so I took off a stripe BUT I have never deployed into combat, I promised my family I would not volunteer but I would go if I was called to go. I know many soldiers who have been in Combat. The MSM should be a garison non combat award, only those who have been out of the wire should receive the BSM.

Response by SFC Roy Barreras made May 10 at 2018 9:46 PM

SFC Roy Barreras — Thu, 10 May 2018 21:46:17 -0400

I've always wondered why there is such controversy when a person deserves an award give it to the soldiers without the politics. . We've been in combat situations for over 17yrs I truly don't believe that anyone fights for awards , they fight for there battle buddies but if they deserve to be recognized whether in combat or in Garrison so be it.

Response by CWO5 Bradley Garfield made May 10 at 2018 10:57 PM

CWO5 Bradley Garfield — Thu, 10 May 2018 22:57:28 -0400

Sorry but that’s not the way it works. Although the SecNav 1650 (for Navy and Marines) states, “regardless of rank...”. We all know that is NOT how things work! The officers approve and authorize these awards, so they take care of their own. This has been a very contentious issue for me my entire 30 years of service. I’ve had CO’s state that “Gunny’s don’t rate MSMs and so on. Unfortunately, personal opinions effect the interpretation of the award regulations as well as long standing traditions. Here’s another personal and quite ridiculous example of the unfairness of the system: I was a CWO3 EOD officer serving in Iraq. On 14 May 2005 I was attempting to hand neutralize an IED when it was detonated on me by anti coalition forces. After getting medevaced my commander submitted me for a Bronze. During the approval process my Group Commander(who was an ardent EOD hater) stated in his remarks “ recommend downgrading to a Navy Comm since CWO .... was not a principal commander and his actions were for self preservation...” He actually wrote that as a permanent part of my award. Can you imagine? I couldn’t believe it! My actions were for self preservation!? Hand neutralizing IEDs on an MSR are self preserving? Unbelievable!!! Well, I was finally awarded a Navy Comm, and not a Bronze Star. You can’t make this stuff up. As a side note, that same COL wrote himself up for and received a Bronze Star, and he NEVER left the FOB. How is that for justice. It’s obscene!!

Response by SFC Raymond Morales made May 10 at 2018 11:08 PM

SFC Raymond Morales — Thu, 10 May 2018 23:08:55 -0400

If you never leave the FOB you should get no more than a commendation medal tops, BSMs for service are check the box BS and needs to stop

Response by SGT Ben Parrish made May 10 at 2018 11:36 PM

SGT Ben Parrish — Thu, 10 May 2018 23:36:37 -0400

My team and I volunteered to replace a team we lost in Taji, while there we were there we struck a dbied killing my gunner and injuring my driver and myself, I was medivaced out of theater and put in for and approved up to Brigade for a BSM with a narrative that said superb performance in combat well deserved. MNCI DOWNGRADED IT to msm for non combat. WTF OVER.

Response by Cpl Jim Gilstrap made May 11 at 2018 12:00 AM

Cpl Jim Gilstrap — Fri, 11 May 2018 00:00:25 -0400

I always thought these were issued the same for everyone. If you look up the criteria for the BSM, each service has their own version, similar yet slightly different. Since it's pretty high on the "what beats what" list, it seems subjectivity should not necessarily be part of receiving said award. My younger cousin received a BSM and a PH in Tikrit. (Sp?). He was shot in the femoral artery, nearly losing his leg and life while on patrol. He owes both to his buddies that got to him quick, the medic that took action and all the docs and nurses along the way. While on his back, being dragged....He both, returned fire and directed his fellow soldiers to the sniper before the others saw the snipers hide. I believe this is a fair version of events. Some I spoke to weren't sure he would have gotten the BSM in the Corps.....? I have no clue, he took a hit and kept alert, helped take out the sniper.....subjectivity.
The Army criteria says heroic or meritorious service in a combat zone, not necessarily under fire. I agree with the LTC that says the MSM should not have been awarded anyway. Combat zone, BSM.

Response by SGT Bob Wolfenkoehler made May 11 at 2018 1:30 AM

SGT Bob Wolfenkoehler — Fri, 11 May 2018 01:30:43 -0400

During World War II if you were awarded a CIB you were awarded a Bronze Star. It didn’t carry over to Korea or Vietnam.
WHY?

Response by SGT Danny SaZon made May 11 at 2018 3:22 AM

SGT Danny SaZon — Fri, 11 May 2018 03:22:17 -0400

O mY!

Response by 1LT John Avila made May 11 at 2018 7:49 AM

1LT John Avila — Fri, 11 May 2018 07:49:59 -0400

In Iraq at CSC Scania, from April 2006 to July 2007. It was frustrating that my Soldiers (Platoon) had to wait to earn their CAB, although in harms way constantly...and it bothered me even more that there was a "quota" of awards being given throughout the Battalion. However, it never kept me for speaking up for my Platoon from day one and deservingly so got two additional Bronze Stars awarded to my SSGs when they more than deserved them...but it was the politics that bothered me. Unfortunately, there will be those that truly lack integrity...I retired a First Lieutenant in the Artillery and I have way more great things to say than not- but what is right is right and wrong is wrong...those who didn't earn them, know deep inside. I was an Army Reserve then Kansas Guard Medic...in between a Navy Hospital Corpsman serving with USMC (Marine Corps Regs at that)...in both instances referred to as "Doc"...that was earned, but I worked extremely hard at that craft (never wanted to let them down...their sacrifice) and would have gladly taken a bullet for any one of them if it meant saving their life- JTF6 Mission with Customs & USMC. I learned what honor and integrity is from not only those I served with ...but from those that never came home- that we should continue to give back and be righteous to honor them for their sacrifice....Jesus Christ brings hope!!!

Response by MSgt Joseph Iannucci made May 11 at 2018 4:55 PM

MSgt Joseph Iannucci — Fri, 11 May 2018 16:55:42 -0400

So are they saying the MSM and BSM can be worn, if you had either one awarded.

Response by 1SG Edward Chancey made May 11 at 2018 6:22 PM

1SG Edward Chancey — Fri, 11 May 2018 18:22:18 -0400

What’s right if getting the right medal to the ones that deserve it and not the ones that flew in for a day or two to say they were on the ground and deserve an award ! We have soldiers out there putting their ass on the line and never get or ask for anything and they’ll come home and see someone they New that never left the fob with the award they should have gotten ! I retired in 1996 after serve with Rangers and Paratroopers which I was one ! I know work on base and have never seen such a poor excuse for leadership and what we have today !

Response by LtCol William Tehan made May 11 at 2018 7:58 PM

LtCol William Tehan — Fri, 11 May 2018 19:58:44 -0400

The Bronze Star, by its name and shape is a combat award, it should never have been awarded for meritorious service. J.F.Kennedy originally received the Navy Marine Corps Medal, for heroism not involving combat, and I know at least 3 people who received the Solder’s Medal/Navy Marine Corps Medal for heroism not involving combat in Viet Nam. Kennedy, through his father’s political pull had his Navy Marine Corps Medal changed to a Navy Cross. Not as bad as Linden Johnson who never was awarded a Silver Star but bought one in a Pawn Shop in San Antonio, the pawn ticket still exists, then wore it for the rest of his life. Pull the Bronze Stars without Vs and exchange them for Meritorious Service Medals. The Army didn’t but the other services awarded MSMs for meritorious service in Iraq and Afghanistan. (My opinions are based on 37 months service in Viet Nam and Indocina as a rifle platoon commander, rifle company commander and intelligence officer and 1 deployment to Afghanistan and 2 to Iraq as a senior intelligence officer.)

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2018 8:39 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 May 2018 20:39:51 -0400

Why dles he have two rangdr patches and one is totally off on the top pocket

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 11 at 2018 8:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 11 May 2018 20:54:54 -0400

It’s all bling and BS. Most soldiers receive blanket awards for just doing their job. Awards should be reserved for actions that warrant them not ornaments based on your rank.

Response by SSG Victor Hernandez made May 12 at 2018 1:11 PM

SSG Victor Hernandez — Sat, 12 May 2018 13:11:56 -0400

RHIP

Response by SSG Michael Farina made May 12 at 2018 1:22 PM

SSG Michael Farina — Sat, 12 May 2018 13:22:26 -0400

I received an MSM ,while overseas in Afghanistan working hand and hand with the Afghan army .Do you think that warrants me to have a BSM or is it correct as to what , I did receive which is an MSM...I was an Engineer in an MP Unit who did Detainee Operations .... My Job warrent me to always be In Harms way , Even when I went Outside the Wire As it is Called ......

Response by Doraetta Hesse made May 12 at 2018 4:44 PM

Doraetta Hesse — Sat, 12 May 2018 16:44:08 -0400

This needs to be changed. I’m not only a civilian supporter. I’m the Widow of a Vietnam Veteran.

Response by SGT Bob Bond made May 12 at 2018 8:53 PM

SGT Bob Bond — Sat, 12 May 2018 20:53:53 -0400

Participants medal
I hold CIB Purple Heart w 1OLC and air medal

Response by SPC Shannon Holmes made May 12 at 2018 10:05 PM

SPC Shannon Holmes — Sat, 12 May 2018 22:05:40 -0400

My last tour 08/09 in Ramadi, Iraq awards were totally political and good old boy system. I was not a favorite, but did my job everyday while others sat in a cozy office. At the end of the tour many E-7's up and O's recieved BSM's and MSM's, while lowers including myself recieved Arcoms. The award system is tainted by those who have the control over it!

Response by SSG Joe Ryan made May 12 at 2018 10:07 PM

SSG Joe Ryan — Sat, 12 May 2018 22:07:32 -0400

I completely agree with Col Shea but would also add that the awards should not be tied to rank. Saw a lot of soldiers get down grades due to being E5 or less, but they did a hell of a lot more than the REMFs.

Response by SFC Kevin Hathaway made May 12 at 2018 11:27 PM

SFC Kevin Hathaway — Sat, 12 May 2018 23:27:54 -0400

Your new Army SUCKS assholes being given Awards they never earned.

The army is getting as the Air Force JUST SAYING

Response by PO3 Mick Dunn made May 13 at 2018 5:41 AM

PO3 Mick Dunn — Sun, 13 May 2018 05:41:31 -0400

Back in '91, myself and 2 others (E6 & E7) were put in for DMSM's. They got them and I received a JSAM because of my rank as per the O8 that presented them. His response was that's just the way it is!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 8:20 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 May 2018 08:20:52 -0400

Sounds right to me.
They have made the Bronze Star a participation medal.

Response by CPT Loren Hutchins made May 13 at 2018 9:10 AM

CPT Loren Hutchins — Sun, 13 May 2018 09:10:00 -0400

I have received both, the BSM/V in Viernamn and the MSM statesside. There is a distinct purpose for both. They both hold equal honor, but for different circumstances. They should not be used for the same purpose. However I have seen the BSM without the V used for exceptional meritorious service. There does seem to be a problem with how many of each award a unit may issue. Once the awards are issued DOA would probably have to make a clarification or adjustment.

Response by 1SG Rod Raugh made May 13 at 2018 9:53 AM

1SG Rod Raugh — Sun, 13 May 2018 09:53:52 -0400

Unfortunately, I was a victim of the “rank game.” I served in Ramadi 2005-2006 and was a “battle captain “ because our battalion staff was so small. Every officer (minus one) received a BSM for the tour and I was told I “couldn’t receive one” because that one officer didn’t?! I was the only member who truly earned/received a CAB (earned mine for recovering a fallen angel under fire and multiple firefights during that mission) and yet when our tour was completed I was awarded an MSM?! I was so infuriated and told the BN leadership it was an insult and a slap in the face!!! At least I can look in the mirror each day with honor and know I did all I could for our soldiers! Such a joke.

Response by LCDR Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 11:38 AM

LCDR Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 May 2018 11:38:35 -0400

I believe the only personal awards should be for valor and heroism. “Meritorious service” is called doing your job.

Response by CW3 Walter Goerner made May 13 at 2018 12:52 PM

CW3 Walter Goerner — Sun, 13 May 2018 12:52:52 -0400

Neither. Officers or Enlisted who do not or did not serve in actual combat or performed an actual significant leadership or act of valor during the combat action, regardless of rank should not be awarded the Bronze Star Medal. The award is getting to be a "Been there" medal and it's a slap in the face to those who were awarded the medal in the past. Desert Storm, Vietnam, Korea, WWII,....so many were under fire but under the current conflict, the award is almost routine. Officers being awarded a Bronze Star without being under fire or even a Meritorious Service Medal for being "there", diminishes the value of the medals. Even "harms way" is not the purpose of the Bronze Star.

Response by SGT Shane Fowler made May 13 at 2018 2:45 PM

SGT Shane Fowler — Sun, 13 May 2018 14:45:23 -0400

My only issue with the Awards system is that holding a certain rank should not be a qualifier for receiving certain awards.
It should be based on Merit and accomplishment.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 2:51 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 May 2018 14:51:32 -0400

Bronze Star for meritorious service in a combat deployment is just for that, meritorious service that greatly contributed to mission success. A Bronze Star with V device is for valor above and beyond what would be expected in actual combat operations. MSM is not needed during combat deployments because of the differences in Bronze Stars. If a staff officer or NCO plans and controls other facets of a successful combat operation(s) or a very successful strategic plan or intelligence ops, aren’t they deserving of recognition also? The derogatory term “Fobbit” is applied far to often even to hard working staff and logistics personnel who keep the whole machine operating but aren’t out in the tactical environment.

Response by MSG Gary Stewart made May 13 at 2018 5:17 PM

MSG Gary Stewart — Sun, 13 May 2018 17:17:58 -0400

I was awarded the MSM is there a way to get it changed I served OIF lll 2004-05

Response by SFC Bill Forte made May 13 at 2018 7:24 PM

SFC Bill Forte — Sun, 13 May 2018 19:24:55 -0400

The entire Awards system is messed up. Too much is left to the discretion of people with preconceived ideas which are contrary to the regulations. Why can't a PFC get an MSM, LOM, etc. The individuals rank should never enter the equation. Judge them on their performance against their responsibilities.

Response by PO3 Gus Figeac made May 13 at 2018 7:29 PM

PO3 Gus Figeac — Sun, 13 May 2018 19:29:46 -0400

Great idea and one I wholeheartedly support. Here is a throwback question (one that may have been previously discussed) but what about servicemen who served 1977- 1990 (post Vietnam - pre desert storm) thatcwere not awarded a National Defense medal?

Response by CMSgt Bob Stewart made May 13 at 2018 8:24 PM

CMSgt Bob Stewart — Sun, 13 May 2018 20:24:27 -0400

How do you define it when you have a group of people fighting from their home station, which is in the combat zone? ALLIED FORCE, some folks got MSMs, some BSMs. Which was appropriate?

Response by SMSgt Clayton Houser made May 13 at 2018 9:04 PM

SMSgt Clayton Houser — Sun, 13 May 2018 21:04:04 -0400

I saw 1rst shirt get BSM for do a good job making tent assignments.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2018 10:00 PM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 13 May 2018 22:00:39 -0400

Maybe the 638 should be redacted so it only shows the actions that happened and the citation. Then, the awards approval authority would judge it based on merit and not rank or position. Once approved/disapproved, the redacted information would show up once it got digitally signed and an order number affixed to it. Thoughts?

Response by CSM George Dupes made May 14 at 2018 12:15 AM

CSM George Dupes — Mon, 14 May 2018 00:15:34 -0400

Seen a lot of arcoms and bsm's handed out in my time. most were deserving a silver star. others were deserving of nothing. We were sent to do a job, not earn medals. the guys I served with didn't want a medal. They wanted to get it done and go home. Believe me nobody wants the CMH. Coffin with Metal Handles. No, it sounds like a glorified good conduct medal.

Response by SSG Anthony Lacerda made May 14 at 2018 6:23 AM

SSG Anthony Lacerda — Mon, 14 May 2018 06:23:23 -0400

I agree on this a hundred percent

Response by CPT Phil Guske made May 14 at 2018 7:20 AM

CPT Phil Guske — Mon, 14 May 2018 07:20:57 -0400

Did get an MSM during peace time and had no idea it was the equivalent of a BSM during war. Learned something new.

Response by GySgt Gene Jacks made May 14 at 2018 10:31 AM

GySgt Gene Jacks — Mon, 14 May 2018 10:31:08 -0400

During my first tour in Viet Nam, put in three, I learned that the bronze star was an officers end of tour award. Along comes WOT and an enlisted man can't get a service cross without being Capt. America. How screwed up is the entire awards system.

Response by COL Thomas F. made May 14 at 2018 10:59 AM

COL Thomas F. — Mon, 14 May 2018 10:59:07 -0400

The Brigade that we relieved in 2004 put in so many BS requests that the 3-star put a cap on the Brigade I was attached so we wouldn't abuse the system (I believe my Group was authorized 9 nominations). The effect: I was put in for an MSM, instead of an BS. I truly believe that my command did that knowing it was going to down graded to an ARCOM. Guess it made them feel good that they didn't "screw me" and that the 3-star higher command was the bad guy. Nepotism is still alive and well.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made May 14 at 2018 1:30 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Mon, 14 May 2018 13:30:15 -0400

While you’re at it...get rid of devices for BSM since it was supposed to be a Combat award, and not just a cookie for the 20 year mark.

Response by SPC William Smith made May 14 at 2018 2:15 PM

SPC William Smith — Mon, 14 May 2018 14:15:13 -0400

We always called the National Defense Ribbon the "KP Ribbon".

Response by SPC William Smith made May 14 at 2018 2:26 PM

SPC William Smith — Mon, 14 May 2018 14:26:44 -0400

My section chief was an E-7 with around 20yrs. of service. When we were in dress uniforms, he had very few things on his chest. Combat Infantryman, Korean and Viet Nam campaign ribbons, and 2 or 3 others. Some E-5, E-6, and E-7's had a chest full of ribbons and things on their breast pockets and so on. When he was asked why he didn't have that many, he would say it was all in his file, and if you wanted to know... look it up.

Response by SPC Kelly Donaldson made May 14 at 2018 3:08 PM

SPC Kelly Donaldson — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:08:04 -0400

BSM was awarded to a commo sergeant who stayed at camp while 20 something personnel left on convoys with only two functional (sometimes) radios through some of the worst parts of Iraq...and tore down communications while leaving two personnel on guard duty with threat of attack (I was one of the two) and impregnated a lower enlisted female. Another BSM awarded to an E-6 Artillery reclass who felt instead of listening to the common sense guidance of lower enlisted on how to set up a functional fuel supply point that was fully operational punches him out (and the system had to be re-configured the way the lower enlisted suggested). The joke in my unit was you had to knock someone up or knock someone out to be awarded the bronze star...oh and a commander who had to be ordered by higher command to leave Kuwait while the majority of his unit was already in Iraq right outside of Fallujah and had been for two months by that point. Needless to say, I scoff at those young service members that drive around with Bronze Star plates wondering if they were earned or given away like candy. ~ US Army Veteran OIF 1 April 2003 - November 2003

Response by SFC Donald Allen made May 14 at 2018 3:20 PM

SFC Donald Allen — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:20:55 -0400

its a good award

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2018 3:41 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 May 2018 15:41:05 -0400

Well hell. I just stumbled onto this site. Don't crucify my because I was "only a reservist" (ret. 2015) but was awarded ARCOM X 2, AAM X 3 in my career, plus numerous others. I don't know what significance this has to others, but I'm just throwing this out there

Response by SPC Nicholas Holcomb made May 14 at 2018 6:34 PM

SPC Nicholas Holcomb — Mon, 14 May 2018 18:34:38 -0400

I did a few tours in my time in and I’d see it all the time, guy never leaves the fob and gets a BSM just cause of his rank. We even had a SGM throw an E4 out of the board cause he couldn’t believe a SPC could get a BSM w/ V device. Made him go get the paperwork awarding it. The guys on the front lines get AAM’s and ARCOM’s the guys in the rear get the big awards. Shits not right.

Response by LTC John Wiegner made May 14 at 2018 6:35 PM

LTC John Wiegner — Mon, 14 May 2018 18:35:26 -0400

Agree!

Response by MSG Jerry Rowland made May 14 at 2018 9:01 PM

MSG Jerry Rowland — Mon, 14 May 2018 21:01:15 -0400

See it happen so many times

Response by SGT Jerry Patterson made May 14 at 2018 9:42 PM

SGT Jerry Patterson — Mon, 14 May 2018 21:42:08 -0400

Long overdue!

Response by SGT John Rambo made May 14 at 2018 9:59 PM

SGT John Rambo — Mon, 14 May 2018 21:59:11 -0400

I actually have to agree with the first comment from the LTC, and I’ll share an experience I had. I was told all the E-7’s and above who got MSM’s for the deployment in 04 should not have gotten MSM’s. All of us lower enlisted who received ARCOM’s for service on our deployment, we should not have received them. I actually got awarded a Soldiers Medal. I never even knew I had been awarded this medal. But when they finally tracked me down and gave it to me, they explained we (other 2 squad members) were awarded this for risking our lives to go into a house that was on fire to help save a few kids. Since we risked our lives, saved a few others, and no combat was actually involved in the incident, we were awarded the Soldiers Medal. And they explained the high level of approval it needed and it also required an eye witness and 2 sworn statements. I thought it was cool after hearing that, but we honestly were just reacting to kids in trouble....it was a split second life or death situation. Well....that’s my award story

Response by MSgt Stu Riggar made May 14 at 2018 10:13 PM

MSgt Stu Riggar — Mon, 14 May 2018 22:13:10 -0400

Granted, I hung up the uniform more than 20 years ago; but what ever happened to EARNING awards? It sounds here as if in some instances it’s become simply a checklist item, regardless of special performance or unusual risk. If you were just “there,” collect your campaign ribbon after your tour and move on. Anything else degrades the awards and decorations program.

Response by LCDR Mike Walker made May 14 at 2018 10:32 PM

LCDR Mike Walker — Mon, 14 May 2018 22:32:27 -0400

A BSM can be awarded for actions outside of a combat area. It doesn't have the 'V' device.

Response by SP5 Dion Parson made May 14 at 2018 11:29 PM

SP5 Dion Parson — Mon, 14 May 2018 23:29:07 -0400

Love ❤️ it and long over due!!

Response by SSG Max Roberts made May 14 at 2018 11:45 PM

SSG Max Roberts — Mon, 14 May 2018 23:45:20 -0400

You can get the officers won't.

Response by LTC Sparky Wilkes made May 15 at 2018 3:43 AM

LTC Sparky Wilkes — Tue, 15 May 2018 03:43:16 -0400

As a former G1, servicepersonnel who say they 'don't care about awards', care about awards. To much comparison on who got what award (officers vs. enlisted, in FOB or outside, enemy engaged or not.) If you see good service or accomplishments submit an award. Anyone can submit an award that has knowledge of the person's service accomplishments. It's all about a truthful and write up. Don't put your name on an embellished Rambo style writeup if it did not happen. If it is an award for service outside CONUS in combat theater of operations (CAB, CIB, BSM) honor the distinguished nature of the award and all those who earned it.

Response by SFC Ronnie Pond made May 15 at 2018 7:38 AM

SFC Ronnie Pond — Tue, 15 May 2018 07:38:16 -0400

I Agree. Officers who never see the field are sitting back in a secure position . can give orders but the soldier that is in the field whether it is in the air are on the ground suffers the out come of any engagement. win or lose they should be the ones awarded the highest awards.

Response by MSG Moises Maldonado made May 15 at 2018 10:05 AM

MSG Moises Maldonado — Tue, 15 May 2018 10:05:30 -0400

Who cares?

Response by SSG Bruce Crabtree made May 15 at 2018 10:21 AM

SSG Bruce Crabtree — Tue, 15 May 2018 10:21:37 -0400

I agree. Make it happen.

Response by MSG James Douglas made May 15 at 2018 10:55 AM

MSG James Douglas — Tue, 15 May 2018 10:55:52 -0400

"C" device????

Response by SCPO Francis Pepin made May 15 at 2018 11:04 AM

SCPO Francis Pepin — Tue, 15 May 2018 11:04:16 -0400

Good question...holds a lot of professionalism issue's

Response by SSG Dwight Aloma made May 15 at 2018 11:04 AM

SSG Dwight Aloma — Tue, 15 May 2018 11:04:33 -0400

The entire military award system is such a joke now days. They have become partying gifts given to anyone for showing up. Commands demand them at the end of tours with the notion that everyone deserves them when in fact only few do the work to earn them. I have been forced to write end of tour awards for substandard soldiers who had the counselings proving them being disqualified. Army leadership need a huge wake up call.

Response by Sgt Robert Sharpe made May 15 at 2018 1:42 PM

Sgt Robert Sharpe — Tue, 15 May 2018 13:42:40 -0400

Our unit unofficial policy was that no one below the rank of SSG was not eligible for the BSM. This really pissed me off as all should be eligible regardless of rank

Response by SFC Gary Brunsonh made May 15 at 2018 4:04 PM

SFC Gary Brunsonh — Tue, 15 May 2018 16:04:46 -0400

During the first Gulf War, I personally have knowledge that LTC with 7th Corps HQ received a BSM for service in Kuwait/Iraq. The only thing is he never left Stuttgart, Germany area. HMMMMMM

Response by 1SG Mark Olin made May 15 at 2018 4:14 PM

1SG Mark Olin — Tue, 15 May 2018 16:14:10 -0400

Great question and I believe that for years there have been issues with all of the service's awards programs. However as long as we have humans writing the regs, interpreting those regs and writing awards we will always have issues. Those that earn combat awards will always be looked at with a jealous eye by those that don't. Bottom line is if you can stand before your fellow troopers and before a mirror and honestly say you earned it, then all is well. But way to many are medal/badge hunting for promotion/glory sake. Honest Warriors know the truth and the difference.

Response by SP5 Matt Schlagenhauf made May 15 at 2018 4:33 PM

SP5 Matt Schlagenhauf — Tue, 15 May 2018 16:33:20 -0400

During my 04-05 deployment, my BSM V was downgraded to a ARCOM V, due to our BN CMD element. As we were a month out from RIP, I was sent to the BN due to my 1st MOS being an admin MOS (it was the only thing open for me to get outta town quick after separating from a crazy Ex.. I was desperate

Response by 2LT William Gombos made May 15 at 2018 6:35 PM

2LT William Gombos — Tue, 15 May 2018 18:35:20 -0400

I received a msm due to my rank, while being awarded a CAB for the same period. Funny isn’t it... the BN awards board states and I quote “he’s. It high enough rank to be considered”. I am sure almost everyone here sees and laughs at four star generals and the like who have BSM with V devices....

Response by CPO Edward Murphy made May 15 at 2018 8:04 PM

CPO Edward Murphy — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:04:43 -0400

I served in the US Navy for over 21 years on active duty and after I retired, worked over 29 years as a DOD/DON Civilian at Weapons Dept. at NAS Jacksonville. Over 50 years combined service, all in the AO Rate.

Response by Cpl Aj Nottoc made May 15 at 2018 8:56 PM

Cpl Aj Nottoc — Tue, 15 May 2018 20:56:15 -0400

Combat specific awards stay combat...

Response by PFC Anthony Collins made May 15 at 2018 9:25 PM

PFC Anthony Collins — Tue, 15 May 2018 21:25:50 -0400

Medals are a bunch of crap anyway...they are for rank and commanders pets. I’ve got more than a few and probably earned a lot more but ultimately I don’t care about anything that was given in that regard. I earned my blue cord. I earned the right to fight and come home having accomplished our objectives in Iraq and Afghanistan. What ever political fuckery has things still fucked in that part of the world is beyond me but me and the guys and women that I fought alongside(and those that supported from the rear) cane Home victorious from both theatres and I’m thankful for the sacrifice of those that didn’t make it home. Medals are just a bunch of crap along with their rank to feed the egos of those who need to feel important.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2018 9:26 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 May 2018 21:26:48 -0400

When I was deployed to Afghanistan if you were a CPT or higher or a SFC or higher you received the bronze star with little exception. There was one MSM awarded that I remember which during a combat deployment never should have been a consideration. The CAB became a joke and was never awarded according to how it was written up. I remember being asked if I was out smoking during an attack...when I asked why I was told everyone smoking during that time were getting a CAB. It became a not so funny joke. Army awards hold very little weight with me now unless I personally know the Soldier who is wearing them.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 15 at 2018 10:19 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 15 May 2018 22:19:17 -0400

Awards are like this both at home and abroad. It is always scrutinized at every level. It sucks. I say get rid of the unwritten rules and write them for the world to see. Make it plain and clear so everyone knows what they are getting and there'll be less heartburn (I said less). You'll never please everyone, but this will eliminate most of the questions anyhow.

Response by SFC Michael Anthony made May 15 at 2018 11:12 PM

SFC Michael Anthony — Tue, 15 May 2018 23:12:28 -0400

I had a SFC , In my unit that went to Doha for 12 months with 2 soldiers, while I went to Iraq with 53 and they gave him a Bronze Star and gave me a MSM....pure crap!!!

Response by SSG Michael Soetaert made May 16 at 2018 12:39 AM

SSG Michael Soetaert — Wed, 16 May 2018 00:39:34 -0400

Meriit Medals Should Not be awarded in non -combat Conditions

Response by SSG Michael Soetaert made May 16 at 2018 12:58 AM

SSG Michael Soetaert — Wed, 16 May 2018 00:58:17 -0400

I Have a Silver Star a Bronze Star (With a V and Two oak Leave Clusters) A purple Heart (6)
an air Medal (With a V and 19 oak Leave Clusters) an Arcom (With a V and Two oak Leave Clusters) And numerous other Awards Including a Combat Infantry Badge, Senior Jump Wings with a Combat star. a Pathfinder Badge, and Special Forces tab

Response by LCDR Tom Sloan made May 16 at 2018 4:50 AM

LCDR Tom Sloan — Wed, 16 May 2018 04:50:10 -0400

Retired Navy SWO here ... my observation and 2 cents ... re-evaluate the Bronze Star ... the name alone, so very similar to the Silver Star, brings to mind heroism and valor. The Bronze Star should ONLY for heroism/valor but to a lesser degree than the Silver Star, and it should be elevated to be just below the Silver Star in precedence. Then any other award for meritorious service in a combat area (Legion of Merit, Meritorious Service Medal, Commendation or Achievement Medal) will be below the Silver and Bronze Star and may be designated by a "C" device. [ just a note: I remember hearing stories about personnel in Vietnam going to a combat area and spending just enough time there to qualify for the Bronze Star and these were rear echelon personnel ... important jobs I'm sure but not deserving of the Bronze Star... that meritorious service eligibility line in the Bronze Star rules should be eliminated]. I am not a war-monger but true heroism should be honored by senior level medals and meritorious service, even in combat, should be below that. All Bronze Stars with Valor should be elevated to just below the Silver Star... and all other Bronze Stars for Meritorious Service should be changed to Meritorious Service Medal with "C" device. The change should be for only those still on active duty. Those who have left the service (retired or discharged) may retain the awards they received while on active duty. Leave the "V" device on the Bronze Star for a generation until it become synonymous with ONLY heroism/valor like the Silver Star, then the "V" will no longer be needed for the Bronze Star. If someone exhibited an act of Valor but maybe to a lesser degree than the Bronze Star, then decide which other award may be awarded with a "V" ... LOM, MCM, Accomodation/Achievement. I leave the details to those in charge. The first thing I think of when I hear someone was awarded the Bronze Star is that they were in combat and exhibited heroism/valor... and then I am disappointed to find out they just exhibited meritorious service ... important I'm sure, and they should be proud of their service .... but the name Bronze Star just sounds heroic... like the Silver Star. Heaven forbid the powers that be in the Pentagon admit they've had it wrong all these years. Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Response by Lt Col John Vreeland made May 16 at 2018 6:15 AM

Lt Col John Vreeland — Wed, 16 May 2018 06:15:05 -0400

I witnessed an MSM awarded to a Navy officwr who never left our FOB and she was fit to be tied because those who traveled around and led convoys received BSMs. Her argumenr was that she did what she was tasked to do, so it wasn't fair.

Response by Cpl Brian Escobar made May 16 at 2018 11:42 AM

Cpl Brian Escobar — Wed, 16 May 2018 11:42:56 -0400

Army Solution: Do what the Marines and Navy do...if you've taken rounds and sent rounds back (or in general terms: been attacked and counterattacked and not necessarily shed blood or been wounded in anyway...in other words just done your freaking combat job! under fire...then it's a little bitty ribbon called the C.A.R.) No offense to my Army Brothers and sisters but your branch overcomplicates these things because of politics...

Response by SPC David Staples made May 16 at 2018 12:00 PM

SPC David Staples — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:00:21 -0400

What did he to get this medal. Cut his hand while on kp

Response by CW4 Charles Rogers made May 16 at 2018 12:05 PM

CW4 Charles Rogers — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:05:03 -0400

When I was in Vietnam my rater recommend me for an MSM which of course came back disapproved because it wasn't authorized under combat conditions. My son deployed to Iraq and was awarded an MSM upon return to the States for his service,. I was proud of his accomplishments but thought he should have received a BSM.

Response by PO1 Don Bittler made May 16 at 2018 12:08 PM

PO1 Don Bittler — Wed, 16 May 2018 12:08:22 -0400

Officers always get medals etc.. even when they're sitting in a nice safe place, to impress people, while combat personnel almost have to die to even be considered.

Response by 1SG Leo Gukeisen made May 16 at 2018 10:36 PM

1SG Leo Gukeisen — Wed, 16 May 2018 22:36:44 -0400

I served over 27 years in the US Army and I have seen many personnel receive awards because of their rank and not their job performance. It was the old "RHIP" system as I called it back then. When I worked my way up the CoC, I wrote awards based on performance not rank. Yes I made people mad and yes I had some taken away from me and rewrote recommending an higher award because of the rank on the collar. Then came the time the Army promoted me and I was assigned to leadership positions were as President Truman said "The Buck Stops Here".. When awards came across my desk and after reviewing them and the Soldier, if I felt they were getting the award for their rank, I would make my recommendation to the Approving Authority. Sometimes I won the battle and sometimes I lost, but the one thing I never lost was my word or self respect. I have always felt that awards should be given for performance and not rank and I stood to that till the dsy I retired and will continue to stand by it till my last breath.

Response by SSG Gerald King made May 27 at 2018 9:16 PM

SSG Gerald King — Sun, 27 May 2018 21:16:52 -0400

As a SSG with 10 years of service I received the MSM for my work as an SIGSEC/ASA advisor to the 2d ACR and all non-divisional units in the Nurnburg area. Received several letters of commendation from the various units I provided support to for a period of 2 years.

THE MERITORIOUS SERVICE MEDAL

TO: STAFF SERGEANT GERALD W. KING - - - - - - UNITED STATE ARMY
FOR: Distinguishing himself by outstanding meritorious service while assigned as a member of the United States Army Security Agency. While serving in a position of great responsibility, he displayed exceptional qualities of leadership and integrity in the execution of his duties. His expertise in problem solving and his ability to render decisions affecting the accomplishment of his unit’s mission were of the highest order. Also noteworthy was his unique application of tact and diplomacy to insure the smooth functioning of his organization. His professional competence, initiative and outstanding achievements reflect utmost credit upon himself, this Agency and the United States Army.

Response by SFC Stephen Hester made May 29 at 2018 8:51 AM

SFC Stephen Hester — Tue, 29 May 2018 08:51:26 -0400

I was awarded an MSM for my last deployment and I'm ok with that.

Response by PO2 John Driskill made Jun 8 at 2018 1:24 PM

PO2 John Driskill — Fri, 08 Jun 2018 13:24:48 -0400

Shades of the Vietnam War. Officers flying in and getting combat medals and leaving shortly there after.

Response by CPO Mike Castro made Jun 12 at 2018 5:11 PM

CPO Mike Castro — Tue, 12 Jun 2018 17:11:46 -0400

The way it was explained to me (Navy) by an Army Colonel any one Enlisted with a Bronze Star did something significant in Combat an Enlisted person with a Bronze Star with Valor did something of great importance. An Officer with a Bronze Star may of received it for kissing ass. An Officer with a Bronze Star with Valor did something of importanrance while in combat.

Response by SSG George Holtje made Jun 19 at 2018 12:05 AM

SSG George Holtje — Tue, 19 Jun 2018 00:05:35 -0400

Of course, I'm a little confused and not surprised by that turn of events.
I did not receive so much as a "hey good job" for my retirement, so, I would expect any award business to be just as low on a priority list.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 20 at 2018 3:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 20 Jun 2018 15:42:05 -0400

Both MSM and BSM get you toll free driving in TX so I don't care. I earned my MSM during my last deployment so let me just enjoy my license plate. If I try to fight it I might end up with an ARCOM. Lol

Response by SFC Osvaldo Vazquez made Jun 21 at 2018 8:34 PM

SFC Osvaldo Vazquez — Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:34:03 -0400

HOw in the heck did I get an MSM for being deployed just because I was a SSG and according to the BC that was for PSG and PLs and above?... can I upgrade an MSM to a BSM if it is proven as a mistake?

Response by SGT Walter Lester made Jun 24 at 2018 5:52 PM

SGT Walter Lester — Sun, 24 Jun 2018 17:52:03 -0400

No way, I served 1 year in Vietnam in harms way and in combat for that year in a combat engineer battalion. For that I earned 2 ARCOMS, Vn Service and Vn Campaign and Good Conduct. I earned a MSM that I never received order or ribbon for but it was listed on my DD-214. The MSM Must be earned not just passed out.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Jul 15 at 2018 4:53 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:53:52 -0400

Man has the GWOT fucked up military awards to the nines.

If you look, historically, when the bronze star was created, it was retroactively awarded to anyone who had been awarded a CIB. That means the bronze star and the CIB are equivalent awards. So the idea of awarding commendation and achievement medals for combat is stupid from the get go; let alone giving a device of V,C, or R.

Do not get me started on the fact that even in Vietnam you could be a tanker and stroll be infantry, the CIB was never meant to be exclusive to the infantry, it was meant to recognize anyone who saw combat; and given that MP's see more action than 80% of the troops in the GWOT, i think that is an important distinction to make.

The commendation and achievement medals were designed to honor peace time service, that was the equivalent to war time service. So for instance we had a PFC in my command, who, during a field exercise, called in an artillery strike that wiped out a company sized element of the opfor. After the field problem he was awarded the army commendation medal; Had he done this in a war he would have earned a bronze star at least.

At least he would have in WWII or Korea. Vietnam politicized the shit out of awards. I heard that the reason for this is that many officers were passed over for awards during Korea, since the first part of the war was spent in retreat. So they pencil whipped a bunch of missing awards.

I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but most officers don't do shit. The idea that a general can not be awarded an army achievement medal, is just dumb. Your telling me when a General shits, it is so fantastic it rises above the level of an army achievement medal? More importantly the idea that only a senior NCO can be awarded an MSM, and an enlisted man can never do something as important to be awarded a LOM, is just dumb. The Legion of Merit and the MSM are the same fucking medal, it is just one is given to enlisted and the other to officers.

The founding fathers were anti chivalry orders, and we have created a monster of an award system in our military. We have more awards and badges than any other country in the world. And that is from the ideology that military valor should not be affirmed.

And then each command is also different. There is no army wide policy on what can and can not be awarded. I might be in the 82nd and do something and get an army achievement award, some guy does the same thing in the 101st and no one does a thing.

Awards are basically stepping stones to the next command and pay grade. They don't mean shit, the only awards that get my attention are the Silver star, DSC, and the MOH. And for non combat the soldiers medal. All the rest don't mean shit, you did not do shit to get them, they were given to you because people liked you.

Oh and campaign medals, campaign medals mean something to me too. I would be embarrassed as hell to stand next to a guy with a specialist rank and an Iraq and or Afghanistan campaign medal with like 5 stars and 6 over seas bars; if i was say a MSG with no campaign medals just the national defense service medal and the GWOT service medal. Because that means my lazy ass managed to never deploy once, in 12 years of war. And I have seen that.

Response by SSG Craig Person made Jul 15 at 2018 6:31 PM

SSG Craig Person — Sun, 15 Jul 2018 18:31:53 -0400

I am Retired and have seen the army award system be misused for years .. it has become based on Rank and pay grade not what a person actually did .. so for all of you who are crying..stop it has been going that way for years . I am amazed that officers are complaining when they are the ones who com up with these policies when they are in command positions.. for example i wan an E5 stationed overseas and they command policy was that PCS awards are e6 and above got MSM and e5 and below got something else.. I had the e6 in my office PCS and for 6 months I was essentially the NCOIC for the shop but when i PCS they said I could not get the higher award because I was not E6 or above even though the new NCIOC came in and said he recommended that I get it due to the fact before he came in the shop and partly during his transition time I trained him..

Response by CWO3 Manny Lopez made Jul 19 at 2018 6:37 PM

CWO3 Manny Lopez — Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:37:03 -0400

Didn't realize there was a "C" device... I've seen Combat "V"s for valor on NAM and Navy Commendation Medals though. I always felt that my CAR ribbon trumped many higher medals anyway... amongst the Marines a CAR carried weight. Enough said!

Response by SP5 Darryl Wilson made Aug 6 at 2018 11:09 PM

SP5 Darryl Wilson — Mon, 06 Aug 2018 23:09:56 -0400

How do I convert MSM medal to a bronze star/C? I was in OIF 05-06.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 13 at 2018 10:59 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Aug 2018 10:59:11 -0400

I personally think the BSM is a crock of shit. In 2009 on a deployment to Iraq, I ran the show in my section. My NCOIC did nothing but college work while I accounted for her equipment, kept her Soldiers squared away. Took her section from worst to first in my time there. When award time came around she got a BSM and was asked how important was it that I get a BSM, she folded and said you can give him a MSM. I learned a very valuable lesson that day. Awards aren't based off of your performance it's based off of your position, I also learned that only doing my job will get me the same reward as going above and beyond. The Army is destroying itself internally with the Award system, the Promotion system, pretty soon it will be a dud organization run by the rewarded idiot while the intelligent get tired of getting fucked and get out.

Response by MSG Izy Veguillacruz made Sep 15 at 2018 1:27 PM

MSG Izy Veguillacruz — Sat, 15 Sep 2018 13:27:18 -0400

That's a good question, we had officers never left Kuwait, one started crying. I did a tour in Iraq MSM, Aghanistan at-a-boy

Response by SGM Paul Hensley made Sep 17 at 2018 5:31 PM

SGM Paul Hensley — Mon, 17 Sep 2018 17:31:51 -0400

I retired a long time ago. When I talk to soldiers now, I'm told Awards are a show up thing. You show up you get awards, no matter what you did/do. That means awards don't mean anything anymore. I see soldiers with a Bronze star and I ask them what did you do to receive the award and I'm told OH, I deployed to Afghanistan and drove a Bradley. Really has it come down to a participation award.

Response by CPO James McAlpin made Sep 27 at 2018 4:25 PM

CPO James McAlpin — Thu, 27 Sep 2018 16:25:06 -0400

I have been retired for over 20 years but this is still a hot button issue for me. Three times during my career I was nominated for awards. All three failed to materialize. One award was given to others who had nothing to do with the events for the award. One was approved by squadron but was sent back to the command for a minor modification of the write-up. When it reached the new department head he tossed it in the burn bag because he didn't want to waste one of his awards on someone who was no longer at the command. I also saw with my own eyes the messages that went out saying no awards would be given to anyone who did not look good in their uniform. So to me, that changed the basic requirement for consideration changed from performance to appearance.

Response by CPT John Green made Aug 8 at 2019 12:41 AM

CPT John Green — Thu, 08 Aug 2019 00:41:47 -0400

Specifically a MSM is for peace time, BSM war time. Not necessarily one for a Fitbit and the other for a snake eater while deployed.

Response by Cpl Christopher Bishop made Sep 1 at 2019 6:05 PM

Cpl Christopher Bishop — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 18:05:13 -0400

What about non combat BSM being handed out like candy for retirements?

Response by MAJ Gerald Hansen made Sep 1 at 2019 6:10 PM

MAJ Gerald Hansen — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 18:10:31 -0400

During the Korean was my father in law was in a marine recon unit behind enemy lines calling arty all night in on a Chinese division which was attacking a U.S. Battalion. The attack failed his team leader got a silver star and he got a letter of recommendation

Response by SPC Allen Heredia made Sep 1 at 2019 10:40 PM

SPC Allen Heredia — Sun, 01 Sep 2019 22:40:18 -0400

I have over 150 missions in Iraq under my belt and dodged getting blown up andwas awarded an ARCOM while the TOC rats all got BSM's. This make sense

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 9 at 2020 10:11 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Jun 2020 22:11:06 -0400

Old thread, but I'll add to it. My personal feeling is that the awards system simply needs streamlining. They need to develop 3 categories: Combat, Non-combat, and service. The individual combat awards should be based solely on combat actions where you have the Silver Star, DFC, DSC, and MOH. The BSM should be awarded as a service award for all personnel assigned to units that have carried out combat operations against the enemy. Yes, that means combat arms and special operations units will be the only units eligible for the BSM. Now, the ARCOM needs to be totally revamped (and a name change is fine) and made only as a combat award for support or other units whose mission isn't to engage in direct combat with the enemy. There has to be that distinction between units with respect to awards for combat service. A tour for an infantryman is totally different than what a support soldier does and I know this from personal experience because I served as both in separate tours.

Now, awards stateside should be based around the COA and the AAM. The Legion of Merit and MSM are fine as service awards. I think that streamlining awards and making them specific to the mission of the unit in combat will help things. The awards that matter the most are the ones for combat actions or valor. Awards here at home so be for recognition of a job well done and that's it. BSM's and ARCOM's should only be combat service awards and they should hold a great significance. Going away from your family and performing a dangerous job for 12 months should mean something. However, when you have a bunch of politics being involved in getting a BSM, it basically cheapens the award and that is why I feel it should only be for combat service by combat troops.

Response by SGT Philip Bahr made Jul 11 at 2020 4:43 PM

SGT Philip Bahr — Sat, 11 Jul 2020 16:43:48 -0400

After my unit got back to FT Sill after Desert Storm, our whole battalion had to stand in formation and watch every staff officer, battery commander, 1SGs, and higher ranks receive their BSM. No awards at all for junior NCOs or EMs.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 11 at 2020 6:54 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 11 Jul 2020 18:54:56 -0400

The fact that all to many awards have been denied and/or downgraded because “SM is only a (insert lower enlisted rank) and doesn’t deserve/qualify for (that level) award” or “(insert rank) wanted all (X type) awards in by date (BLAH), downgrade to (Y type) award” COMPLETELY disregarding the Regulation.

Response by CAPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2020 11:38 AM

CAPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:38:30 -0400

BTW, I was a Navy CDR in Iraq serving in a liaison supporting C3Air. The Army awarded me a BSM as an end of tour award. Navy would not approve me to wear the medal because the Navy standard was more rigorous than the Army’s.
Ok. Army later sent me a JMSM.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2020 11:04 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:04:15 -0400

They aren’t gonna change that.... as recent as now I was given a CAB and still handed a MSM at EOT...

Response by SSG Kenneth Ponder made Sep 21 at 2020 9:41 PM

SSG Kenneth Ponder — Mon, 21 Sep 2020 21:41:27 -0400

Do away with all meritorious awards. Problem solved.