Blind obedience - WHY???

2014-09-05T11:38:30-04:00

There was a discussion about an airman being denied reenlistment for refusing to say "So help me God" as part of the oath, and one commenter basically said "Hey, it's a military requirement. Don't like it? Get out."

Not just with this, but with a LOT of things, I see the sentiment regardless of whether the requirement is legal or legitimate. What's the deal? The military isn't just some faceless monolith, it is us...it is people, and sometimes people do unwise, stupid, or outright illegal things. Why should we just accept it from someone of a higher rank just because we're in the military?

Got any stories where you had to deal with it? I've got one:

I was on the phone with my wife, who is German, asking her to pick me up so we could have lunch. Someone taps me on the shoulder and says "you need to speak English, SPC Walker" (This was a while ago). I turn around and say "Excuse me?" It's one of the SSGs in my platoon.

I explained I was speaking to my wife, and it was lunchtime anyway so it wasn't work related, but he didn't back down. He even tried to confiscate my cell phone. We both wound up in the SGM's office, and THAT is where I learned about AR 600-20, Chapter 4, Paragraph 13.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 7:38 AM

2014-09-17T07:38:26-04:00

It seems to me that the SSG was a aware that you are allowed to use your normally language in personal communications.
I had a 1SG a while back that was Puerto Rican and obviously spoken his language when wanted. However the commander did not speak it and counseled him many times about its use in the work place. I myself also spoke to him about it because he would always address me by using the term " Mira".
I would often ignore him when I heard him doing it until one day he was using it to call my attention to something and I didn't respond so when he walked into my office and asked "why didn't you answer me?" I stated "I didn't hear you". He responded with " You heard me saying Mira" to which I responded " yes but my name isn't Mira nor is my title, had you said hey Sergeant Ski I would have known who you were looking for". We talked about it as professionals do, behind closed doors. I explained that it may be a cultural nor for him but it's not professional and shouldn't happen in the work place. I would never address him but the term Mira although he wouldn't probably respond.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 9:03 AM

2014-09-17T09:03:52-04:00

Chief I think you summed it up in your second paragraph. "sometimes people do unwise, stupid, or outright illegal things"

People are always going to do just that. I used to always speak to my ex wife in German as well, that was the only language in which we could effectively communicate at times because her English was not that great in the beginning.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 10:08 AM

2014-09-17T10:08:41-04:00

The SSG in your example was obviously wrong, but you have to know when to pick your battles. There is no such thing as "blind" obedience in the Army. That's for the Navy. "One screw, one crew." That's why we are a Mission Command based organization...we work on intent, not task. Now...there are obvious reasons why Soldiers must be obedient. I think that's clear to everyone. There can't be an atmosphere of "blind disobedience" either. The old addage of, "We protect democracy, we don't practice it," is valid. Reference the oath issue...not sure that is a battle that should have been fought, but it was...and it is a requirement of the oath, so there you go. There are methods to get it changed. Here's where the rub comes in. No one wants to spend the massive amount of time it takes to get something like that done, so they complain about it, and lament their tortured existence in the military. Seeing their personal opinions invalidated by the system, without going through the proper process to change it, they become disgruntled and bitch some more...spreading their discontent to the masses who have the same complaints, but who have also not done the proper work to do what needs to be done. Cry me a river. Take the oath.

Response by SFC Michael Hasbun made Sep 17 at 2014 10:23 AM

2014-09-17T10:23:50-04:00

The whole point of ALM/ALC 2015, Doctrine 2015 and the OE process is that the Army NEEDS Soldiers at all levels capable of critical thinking and systemic analysis. The days of mindless drones is over. We need chess players. People who can analyze a given situation and make informed decisions. This starts at the bottom.

If there is one thing that Gen. Petraus, Gen. Ward, Gen. Sinclair, Gen. Mchrystal, SFC McQueen PFC Manning, and countless others have taught us, it's that the consequesnces of our decisions do not care what rank we wear.

Critial thinking is a must at all levels.

Blind obedience has no place outside of an ant colony.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2014 10:28 AM

2014-09-17T10:28:57-04:00

Here's my issue: once you get past a certain level of rank and/or responsibility, you NEED to be able to think critically. As a more senior ranking person, you need to be able to develop your junior leaders...if you expect anyone above the rank of SGT to just execute and never ask questions......when you're not there they will be paralyzed if they run into a new situation.....

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Sep 17 at 2014 10:46 AM

2014-09-17T10:46:04-04:00

While this example is a great example of when you should stand up for yourself, there is a point to blind obedience. It is an unfortunate circumstance, but within a draw down blind obedience is a defensive career move. Personnel will not want to upset their rater, or those who can effect their career, because one negative report may find a way to stagnate and end their career. I am in no way saying this is right, but it is a natural instinct for those wishing to further their career.

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Sep 17 at 2014 2:54 PM

2014-09-17T14:54:21-04:00

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member In response to your example...I hope your SGM was squared away and told the SSG to pound sand.

AR 600-20, 4-13 does cover using the English language for everything military - not talking to your family. The last sentence clearly states, "Accordingly, commanders may not require the use of English for personal communications that are unrelated to military functions."

Response by SPC James Jackson made Oct 25 at 2018 11:41 AM

2018-10-25T11:41:33-04:00

UCMJ says we are supposed to act and perform in a certain fashion. We [collectively] are all trained primarily to perform one specific function and task, without a strict adherence to a certain set of guidelines it could potentially have catastrophic consequences. And I'll refer you to one of the soldiers code of conduct... I am an American, fighting in the forces that guard my country and our way of life. I am prepared to give my life in its defense.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Oct 25 at 2018 5:50 PM

2018-10-25T17:50:13-04:00

AR 600-20, Chapter 4, Paragraph 13 deals with English as the offical U S Military's language as to deals with operations - pretty sure your wife isn't involved in military operations - unless she was in the Army.
Never-the-less were C-rats involved? :D