Bringing History and Heritage Back to Units

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:33:57 -0400

While driving on post the other day, I was met by a soldier manning a checkpoint. There was a CAC card reader near the soldier’s position. As I have done countless times before I swiped my card and the soldier was notified, via his terminal, that I am an officer. As I drove by the soldier was sitting on his stool and halfheartedly saluted. This left a bad impression on me. Why would a soldier conduct themselves in such a way? I am sure he was trained on military customs but where? Is Basic Combat Training the only place where formal military customs and courtesies are reinforced? Maybe units continue this or they may view that this is best left to the NCO Education System.

I have always noticed that the Marines have a very high sense of esprit de corps. They make a very deliberate effort to maintain the history of not only the Marines but that of the unit. One example of this is the new members of the 5th Marine Regiment being awarded the French Fourragere at Camp San Mateo. There is a formal process in which new Marines are given the award. The newest members of the 5th Marines learn of their unit’s role in WWI and why they were awarded such an honor. This is just one small way to ensure unit history is not lost with the replacement of those in that unit with newer Marines.

In the Army I have yet to see or hear of such an event taking place. In my first unit, we had the French Fourragere but I was simply told to go to Clothing & Sales and buy the green cord. I didn’t think much of it but just another thing I have had to buy for my uniform. I had no clue how my unit received this award or of the sacrifices of those who came before me. This may not be case for all Army units, as some of the more well-known divisions in the Army actively reinforce their history. Also there are events in which the Army maintains their history such as the NCO induction ceremony. In addition, there are units such as the 30th ABCT, formally the 30th ID, which have annual reunions so that current members can interact with its former soldiers that have served as far back as WWII. Yet another would be the Ranger Rendezvous.

I spoke to a prior Marine who is now in the National Guard, and I was surprised that the Marines also instituted a history program in which they are tested. Within this program Marines are also taught recent history such as the Battle of Fallujah in Iraq and the Battles of Sangin and Marjah in Afghanistan while in Boot Camp with the expectation of maintaining such knowledge. Wouldn’t all soldiers, even all service members, benefit from learning more history behind their units? It would instill more respect and pride in their service.

With history we learn of the past. We learn of the feats of those that gave so much for us. We take pride in what we represent. When a soldier looks at his unit patch as a mark of distinction instead of just another patch you will find a soldier that is committed to his unit, the Army and to his country.

Response by SSG Jacob Wiley made Sep 25 at 2014 9:57 AM

SSG Jacob Wiley — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 09:57:28 -0400

I'll agree the Marine Corps has much more discipline, pride and tradition than the Army in general.

As for the example you provided...half-assed salute - I agree totally,wrong answer. If someone is going to do it, by God do it right.

Here's my question: was that MP there to greet everyone, pat them on the bottom and tell them they're special, or was he there monitor a system?

Here they physically take your CAC, scan it with a handheld and return it. Yes, they salute and give the greeting of the day. Sounds like your guy's job was ensuring that CAC cards to get swiped and any errors get remedied in order to let folks onto post - maybe he didn't notice you til later?

Response by TSgt Joshua Copeland made Sep 25 at 2014 10:07 AM

TSgt Joshua Copeland — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:07:43 -0400

AF ( and Army Air Corps) history is a mandatory area for AD enlisted promotion. Up to 10% of our promotion testing exam is history.

Response by SSG John Erny made Sep 25 at 2014 10:20 AM

SSG John Erny — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:20:15 -0400

That is the New Army, and I think it sucks. When I was on Active Duty we respected our leaders. When I enlisted Ivan was still the bad guy, BCT pushed you to the breaking point and air borne school 1/3 of the students failed, you had to earn your wings.

Response by SSG Pete Fleming made Sep 25 at 2014 10:41 AM

SSG Pete Fleming — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 10:41:51 -0400

1LT Eric Rosa, I agree that history should be taught and the Marines do an excellent job with this. The Army and other branches should instill a deeper sense of pride. Sure we gain it from our experience and such. But unless you love history (as I do) no one cares. Most Marines can still give a good history lesson of the Corps years later but unfortunately I can't say the same for other Veterans.

As for the salute, there are a couple of ways to look at it. First is there is proper regulated way such courtesies are to be rendered. And I agree with everyone if your going to do it, do it right (like the president holding coffee or dogs or whatever). But then, there is the other side, speaking as someone who pulled gate duty prior to computerized controlled access points, even now a lot places are out dated (but that's a different story).

Panama had the old sticker identification system. Now forgive me I don't remember the color code that was... well a few years ago... ahem... I think it was dark blue officer, light blue enlisted, then there were literally 10 billion other colors (I never new the color wheel had so many colors) DOD, US contractors, local contractors, employees, dependents, other agencies, other services, even the Tooth Fairy and Santa Claus had their own color...

In the morning we would just check the sticker (remember this was before 9/11) or as instructed we would physically check ID's. It was non-stop traffic and Fort Clayton sucked, there was no air and humid, I liked Sherman though... It got to the point where we would wave traffic onto base with a crisp salute like gesture, adjusted depending on the color of the sticker. (I still have the muscle memory of how to do it and did it in Kosovo as civilian security contractor years later).

Only two occasions really standout. One was a Captain, his sticker was faded so my 'gesture' was more 'wave' then 'salute'. And an Lt's wife because I didn't salute the sticker.

But, I will admit when traffic was slow or I was working one of the lesser used gates my salutes were salutes... usually...

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 11:42 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 11:42:10 -0400

As a prior Marine, I can attest to such things. I served with Battalion Landing Team, 2/1, of the 1st Marine Regiment. Weekly, while in garrison, we were given history classes and tests form our NCOs about the lineage and history of the regiment. As I moved up in ranks I was given the honor of not only teaching our new young Marines, but passing on the history of such an awesome regiment.

At MCRD San Diego, a graduation requirement involved history lessons and tests on that subject, from the inception of the Corps to the current events of the Corps. History lessons also included history from the other branches as well. I know the Army, as well as other branches have vast amounts of history an lineage. I have a few friends who are in the Ranger Battalions and the stories of how they honor and pass on the information of their history and lineage is awesome.

As a leader, I think I will begin this with my current unit, and educate not only myself, but my Soldiers about the history and lineage of my unit. Great topic.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 12:35 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:35:35 -0400

I have to agree with you, while being a Marine I am not trying to put down the Army. I have a friend that served 5 years as a MP in Texas, South Korea and did a year in Afghanistan. He is out and I took up the reserve side of things to pursue my education. However, as with all veterans, we both continue to talk randomly about discrepancies we see how things have changed since we first entered our respective services. He agrees the Marines have always had a much larger sense of history and tradition. He personally cannot never understand why the difference was so substantial.

As you mentioned in Bootcamp/OCS we are taught the history of the Marines Corps. Everything from why officers carry the Mameluke Sword and where it was earned, where the NCO sword was earned to what the embroidered design on a officers dress cover signifies (its a mark for shooters in crows nests back when we used to be strictly on ships so marines wouldn't get shot by our own shooters if anyone is wondering ) I believe we are still technically authorized to still carry swords into combat as well. We had hours of instruction on the battle of Chapultepec, Okinawa, the significance of 1st Lt Obannon, to Sgt Mackie. We also recited history as we would being doing anything from cleaning to marching. My cousin who is actually with the 82nd made a comment about how "cool" it was that I had a sword on me at my sisters wedding. I proceeded to describe the historical aspect of it and his response was "I wish the Army did stuff like that"

Our esprit de corps is something that I think is unmatched anywhere else in this country. I did have a friend argue with me that being in a fraternity was the same thing as being in the Military, especially in the Marines.....didn't go over to well. I think the issue is the Army has just lost its traditions and they only need find them again. How to go about this starts with the senior leaders and everyone on down through the ranks, it would probably take years. I remember an article a few months back I think I read in the Marines Times about how leadership in the Army has deviated away from traditions and customs and courtesies and proper leadership. I doubt this applies to everyone.

My friend actually got out because of the failure to follow such basic things as the regulations in ar670-1. He said he constantly would stop people in the PX, Commissary and around base and tell them of discrepancies. While he did get some appreciated thanks for correction. Most the time it was a "scoff" or rolling of the eyes.

The strange part is the Army has just as much history to be proud of as the Marine Corps. From D-Day, Battle of the Bulge, even to the Island of Peleliu and the Pacific Campaign that not many people know about. Vietnam wasn't a cake walk for anyone. History is the foundation to make you proud to wear the uniform. A uniform is nothing but the same pair of clothes everyone else wears without any significance. History is what makes it.

Response by SGT James Korman made Sep 25 at 2014 12:38 PM

SGT James Korman — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:38:15 -0400

US Army salute: In the past there was more rigor than today. I believe several factors inhere in this sad situation: younger recruits - 18 to 25 - have for the most part never lived in an authoritarian environment. The sissification of the young males to avoid risk, insipid education, ignore authority, and a general decline of manners in this country contributes strongly to this deplorable situation. Wonder about there training in Basic. One ponders how they might survive in combat?

Response by Cpl Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 12:42 PM

Cpl Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 12:42:56 -0400

There have been a few threads on here about how the USMC does not have a stand alone mission and that the other services can and should take over their missions. There have been many other posts on here comparing the other services and in general most non Marines believe them to be grunting neanderthal killing machines. I am not going to dispute the grunting neanderthal killing machine as there is some truth in that, and I will not dispute that other service can do what USMC does given time and equipment. What I will say about this post, is that it highlights what every single Marine will ever tell you when discussing the Marine Corps. This also highlights what the, perceived, deficiency is in other services.

Being a Marine is not a job. It is not something that you sign up for and then leave. It is not 8 - 5, M - f. It is not a uniform you may drop off at the dry cleaners to make ready for Monday. Being a Marine is a way of life, it is the feeling of being something greater than yourself, which is felt as a tangible thing when you are around other Marines. I and others have stated that you become a Marine, that there is a intangible feeling of Espirit-de-Corps, which those who have not earned the EGA do not understand and often ridicule. I have seen the words transformation, change and others used to describe the process of becoming a Marine, which other service members try to downplay stating that all members go through a transformation. They do not know the feeling. The closest thing I can equate to becoming a Marine is possible the first time you look in your child's eye's, the first kiss from your soul mate, your first pay check etc. These are emotional events which ring and hold a special place. Sure an Airman graduates and is now an Airman, same with a Soldier or Navy. But do you carry that special feeling with you your entire life? Some may, most will not. That intangible thing which fills us up and carry's us forward is what Marines have and why they do what they do. It is instilled in us from boot camp that the greatest error we can make is not to screw up, because everyone does that, but rather the greatest sin is to dishonor the legacy of those who came before. When I went through boot camp we learned about Marine Corps history and detail and were told we had a great legacy to follow, which we could not ever hope to emulate, but that we should never ever disgrace. It is that brainwashing, and yes it is brainwashing, is what we carry with us. So when you see Marines snap to, render courtesy (not all do but must do), or any other action where you make the comparison as John "Black Jack" Pershing did,

"Why in hell can't the Army do it if the Marines can. They are the same kind of men; why can't they be like Marines."
Gen. John J. "Black Jack" Pershing, USA; 12 February 1918

It is because they are Marines.

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Sep 25 at 2014 1:24 PM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:24:12 -0400

Great piece! Thanks!

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 1:26 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 13:26:17 -0400

This is a direct result of a failure in NCO leadership and discipline. Soldiers do what they are taught and told to do. That is their primary function. It is the job of NCOs to teach and instill discipline, duty, honor and esprit de corps. NCOs need to start looking at their peers and subordinates and most importantly, themselves. If you cannot lead or teach...YOU, the NCO are the problem.
It is a shameful and telling situation when an officer has to start pointing out the discipline problems of enlisted soldiers. That soldiers first line leader is a failure, period. Our NCO Corps needs to check itself immediately. I'm embarrassed just reading this.

Response by SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr made Sep 25 at 2014 2:08 PM

SSgt Thomas A Tullis Jr — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:08:50 -0400

How can I put this. You are an officer and customs and courtesies demand a proper salute. Your response to this soldier wasn't appropriate and is indicative of the discipline lacking in the US military.

Response by SSG Hector Brooks made Sep 25 at 2014 2:31 PM

SSG Hector Brooks — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:31:51 -0400

Sir, you made no mention of how you attempted to correct the problem. It was obvious he was aware to render a salute as he was taught, but you allowed the systemic problem to continue. Now, I am not saying that you should have stomped a mudhole in him, but maybe he has some things going on and needs a little pep talk. In my career I have seen two different situations happen. Officers would come my way and execute an about face so they don't have to salute, others would go out of their way to find a salute and both instances are wrong. But never did I find an officer make a correction on a half-hearted salute. You deserve you're respect, but never forget that you are required to salute back and it is equally important. Take the time, it make all the difference.

Response by Cpl Ray Fernandez made Sep 25 at 2014 2:52 PM

Cpl Ray Fernandez — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 14:52:36 -0400

I think you would have to revamp the entire Army boot camp. All Marines train in either San Diego or Paris Island. There we have a common skill set, as well as quite a few classes on Marine History. After we complete recruit training, then we go to Marine Combat Training, and finally to our MOS schools. So early on we have a skill set and knowledge that allows us to know regardless of MOS that we all have the same training to the same standard and we all are taught the same history of the Marine Corps. The problem I see when I hear of Army Basic Training, is that you have a wide range of rules and leeway in which training is carried out. We have the same set of Drill Instructors from Training Day 1 through graduation day, I've heard that Drill Sergeants are rotated through training, next I spent Christmas in 96 with my fellow recruits, and I often see news stories of Army recruits going home for the holidays, which to me seems to be counter productive if you are trying to make someone transition from being a civilian to being a professional soldier, then there are some boot camps that allow recruits to bring a cell phone with them which also seems to be counter to building a soldier focused on performing his mission (feel free to correct me if I've made any mistakes on this).

Response by Sgt Erle Mutz made Sep 25 at 2014 4:40 PM

Sgt Erle Mutz — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:40:58 -0400

It seems a little obvious (to me) that he has very little pride in his responsibility, platoon, company, or branch of service. THAT's pretty sad! Maybe he should look for a high paying security job where he wouldn't have to "worry" about saluting, and he could even 'fall asleep' IF he wanted to.

Response by SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS made Sep 25 at 2014 4:45 PM

SFC Dr. Joseph Finck, BS, MA, DSS — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 16:45:04 -0400

1LT Eric Rosa,

As a career service member who was lucky enough to begin my career as a United States Marine, I will say pride of being a Marine is infectous and a brand we wear with pride for the rest of our lives.

A couple of points to enhance what you are saying: On 14 June 2002 I was sitting in a briefing room and a Senior NCO asked if anyone knew what day it was. I raised my hand and sheepishly (I had not been in the Army all that long) related it was the Army Birthday. I was right, but why as a Soldier who had not attended Army Basic Training did I know that and a room full of Soldiers who had not?

Another example was this illustration I used regularly when conducting the APFT. A Soldier would come to me and say "Hey Sergeant, how many do I have to do to pass?" A Marine would have said, "Excuse me Gunnery Sergeant, how many do I have to do to max?" I realize I am making a large generalization, and this example does not fit all. Sadly it fits enough.

None of this ever caused me to feel less pride in my service as a Soldier and or pride in my service. It is much more likely you will find me wearing a US Army Retired hat or notice the US Army Retired License Plate frame on my car. In the end , my pride came from service first as a Marine and then as a Soldier. Service to my country and the men and women who served with me.

History, tradition, ceremony and pride should be something Senior NCOs share everyday with Soldiers. That is the way of our brothers and sisters in the Marine Corps. It is not a one time lesson. It is a constant evolving life long lesson in pride and professionalism. Standards are so very important. Our Army will only be as good as we allow it to be. Most all Soldiers I served with loved the Army and loved our units. We showed incredible pride in our accomplishments, and I think there are many more like us out there.

As for the half hearted salute, a spot correction may have been in order. I know, had I been there, even as a retired Senior NCO, it would have likely happened.

Great topic and so very important to keeping the tradition, history, and warrior spirit maintained and shined up a bit,

SFC Joseph M. Finck, USA (Ret)

Response by CPL Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 5:16 PM

CPL Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:16:41 -0400

Indeed Sir,
I am very much in agreement.
Military customs and courtesies should always be in place as a part of a
well trained, well disciplined military. Perhaps we have been fighting too long in regions where saluting an Officer is bad juju. But, I am also of the belief that as a force discipline has gone out the window. Stories I'm hearing from soldiers coming out of "Basic" astound me- Cell Phones authorized in "Red Phase", wearing soft shoes.... It does have me asking where do you draw the line between discipline and abuse....
Rest assured Sir, that there are still plenty of us who respect rank,
and in a Garrison environment would crisply snap to and salute.
Respecting your rank and authority as I would hope one would respect mine (if I were in that position, or when placed in a leadership role).

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 5:52 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:52:31 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member It shouldn't come to this, however, what you should have done was stop your vehicle, get all, call the Soldier over and make that on the spot correction and one warning, If I see you conducting yourself in such a manner ever again I will report you to the Installation Command Sergeant Major and let him work it out with your chain of command. If he gave you any attitude or lip, go striaght to the MP station and see the DES Sergeant Major. Promise he/she will do something about it. You would be surprised how much Command Interest there is at Gates/Entrances to installations these days.

As part of my job at Fort Stewart (Emergency Management/Anti-terrorism/Force Protection) I inter-act with the DES Leadership often on a weekly basis. The leadership is concerned and interested and would like to know if Soldiers are not conducting them properly when on the gates. These Soldiers are the first ones seen for anyone entering the installation and set the tone and that all important first impression.

Most installation DES are short handed and the uniformed Soldiers are either SD or BMM to the DES for a period of time. As with with most Soldiers who are detailed to BMM for 30-60-90 days to 6 months...their chain of command does not pay much attention to them. Plus what unit 1SG is going to give up his best Soldiers for up to 6 months, therefore these SD/BMM Soldiers are not the cream of the crop. They do require some special attention from time to time, however, the DES leadership can not provide direct supervison every hour of each day.

Many would be surprised at the difference that "one on the spot correction" by and officer or NCO coming thru the gate could make. Remember, when we don't make those on the spot corrections when they occur, we can not be surprised or angry when we see it the next time when we had the opportunity to fix it the first time.

Sure some would say, "Damn that LT is a Dick!" But you can bet, next time he saw you coming, he would stand a little taller, actually render a proper salute and not just to you.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 5:56 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 17:56:11 -0400

“Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference in the world. But, the Marines don't have that problem.”
― Ronald Reagan

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 6:14 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:14:49 -0400

I had to opportunity to spend some time recently at USMC Recruit Depot, Parris Island, SC a couple months ago, to observe their EOC during an emergency management exercise. I have to say I was thoroughly impressed with the conduct, bearing, esprit de corps I observed. I understand this being a basic training base it is to be somewhat expected.

However, when there were 4 Privates walking down the street, 3 were in formation and 1 was in charge. You see 8-9 Soldiers walking together on Ft. Stewart, they are strung out, dragg-assing and taking their time crossing the street-holding up traffic, etc.

I don't fault Soldiers for this, I point my finger at leadership, starting at Bn, then unit, and then at Platoon. If it doesn't start at the top, it seems the feeling "down" the chain is it's acceptable and fine. Instead of somewhere down the chain the leadership decides "oh hell no, not on my watch. We're fixing this starting now. It may have to begin at squad/section or platoon level first and hopefully become contagious and spread thru a unit. But if it doesn't start somewhere, we will continue to have what we have what we have.

Some units do a great job, however, it is embedded into the unit from the time of arrival. One of the best that I know of that I see where customs, traditions, esprit de corps, etc have continued is the 11th ACR, and not only the 11th, but in most CAV units. I think that is why many who get assigned to CAV units try to stay as long as DA will let them or get back to the as soon as they can after they PCS.

The Army can do it just as good as the USMC does! Some units do it! Leadership sets standards. Organizational standards begin with the senior leadership. If you see a problem at the lower end of the organization....then it's considered a problem by the leadership at the top....until they get a called on it. Then the reaction tends to be "overkill", which, in the long run does more harm than good.

Response by Sgt Packy Flickinger made Sep 25 at 2014 6:32 PM

Sgt Packy Flickinger — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:32:39 -0400

Did you stop and correct that gate guard? A Marine would have in a heart beat. If you can get away with it once, you'll do it again. Don't let it go, next time lock his ass up and report him to his SNOIC.

Response by LTC Hillary Luton made Sep 25 at 2014 6:44 PM

LTC Hillary Luton — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 18:44:37 -0400

When I was with the 70th Regional Readiness Command in Seattle, WA, I created a presentation of the history of the 70th, the patch we wore and Fort Lawton, were the unit was located at that time. The presentation was approximately 16-18 minutes long and included nearly 100 years of history. The first time I read the history was at a formal dinner the command used to have called the Trailblazer Ball.

We enhanced the narration with a slide show depicting pictures of the unit, Ft. Lawton, and society throughout the history I was reading. Period music played in the background and then as I talked about various campaigns, Soldiers in period uniforms would walk to the center of the room in spotlight. They would portray Soldiers on patrol or recon or confronted by enemy, as they entered the room. The presentation not only received a standing ovation, but I was asked to give the presentation at least two more times.

This may not be exactly the same as instilling traditions in order to develop a sense of pride in the unit's history, but there are creative ways we can instill that pride in our units.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Sep 25 at 2014 7:50 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 19:50:29 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member My troops knew that I would pull a "Ezekiel 25:17 from Pulp Fiction" on them if I ever EVER got wind of anything 1/4 as disrespectful as that. I had no problem watching from the woodline anytime my troops were representing my unit in any capacity. PLEASE find out who the COR/SOG is and what unit they are from and indulge your "inner NCO" On behalf of all the disgusted NCO's who agree with me, I apologize for that unacceptable behavior and curse my retirement.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 8:00 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 20:00:08 -0400

The Sword More than a weapon — a heritage The swords Marines carry signify the Marine Corps’ heritage as America’s original protectors. They are the oldest weapons still in service by United States Armed Forces. Officers carry the Mameluke sword, which was originally given to Lieutenant Presley O’Bannon in 1805 by a Mameluke chieftain in North Africa. Lt O’Bannon and his Marines marched across 600 miles of North African desert to rid the "shores of Tripoli" of pirates. By 1825, all Marine Corps Officers carried the Mameluke sword. Staff Noncommissioned Officers (SNCO) and Noncommissioned Officers (NCO) carry the 1858 Cavalry sword. This sword was bestowed upon them by the Commandant of the Marine Corps in recognition of their leadership in combat, their virtue and tradition. Only the Marine Corps awards such recognition to Noncommissioned Officers.

THE MOST DISTINCTIVE UNIFORM IN THE MILITARY Every detail of the dress blues uniform reflects the proud legacy of Marines who have served for more than two centuries: The buttons featuring the eagle and anchor have been on the uniform since 1804, making them the oldest military insignia in continued use. The "blood stripe" runs down each trouser leg of the dress blues worn by noncommissioned officers, staff noncommissioned officers and officers. The solid red stripe became part of the uniform in 1849. Today, it serves to honor the memory of fallen comrades. The collar of today’s dress blues reflects the original Marine uniform of the American Revolution, which had a high leather neck to help protect Marines from sword blows. Because it embodies Marine Corps history, rigorous standards apply to wearing this uniform and every Marine upholds those standards with pride.

Response by Cpl Peter Martuneac made Sep 25 at 2014 10:42 PM

Cpl Peter Martuneac — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:42:13 -0400

I say this without any intention to offend, but it's always been my observation that there is very little pride in the Army, if any at all. Marines are have enough to go around and still have leftovers.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 25 at 2014 10:48 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 22:48:10 -0400

Maybe it's just the time that I originally came in, or maybe it's just the units that I was in, but I seem to remember history and tradition still being a pretty big deal when I was in the Cavalry.

Even since I left the Cavalry, I've taken it upon myself to research organizations that I've been a part of as best I can.

Response by MSG Brad Sand made Sep 25 at 2014 11:55 PM

MSG Brad Sand — Thu, 25 Sep 2014 23:55:34 -0400

I think the military is a reflection of our nation and we are sadly lacking on our history knowledge...said by the a History major.

Response by SSG Robert Poorman made Sep 26 at 2014 12:07 AM

SSG Robert Poorman — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 00:07:00 -0400

I use to love to learn about the history of the units I served in. Still do, and it's so much easier with the internet and all. Back when I served it was the post library and then it was only if they had something on it. We were never taught or expected to know our unit history, what wars it participated in, number of MOH or famous members of the unit, the heraldry of our unit crests, patches. These were all things that I had to learn on my own and only because I was interested in it. I remember getting to the 2/503rd Inf. and I was instructed to say 'Corregidor' when we saluted an officer... but no one bothered to tell me what Corregidor meant. Again, something I had to look up myself.

These are some of the things that should be covered in an orientation. Hell the only orientation that I remember ever receiving was when I got to Korea and that was mostly about Ration Cards, VD, and Slicky Boy.

Knowing your unit's history instills pride and something to live up to.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Sep 26 at 2014 12:13 AM

SGT Mark Sullivan — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 00:13:42 -0400

I have been in several Units during my time in the Army, 1987 to 1998, the Units I have seen that seriously lacked any Esprit De Corp, were the REMF Units, Ft Eustis was pathetic, as was Ft Story. Both were Transportation Corp bases, and the majority of soldiers stationed there were slovenly, political slime balls. Except the training units on those bases. Ft Eustis is where the Aviation Logistics schools are located, but, is where the Army Boat Units are located as well. Ft Story was a Hover Craft Base, JLOTs, but is now joint training. My Time with 17th Aviation Brigade, 2nd ID and the 101st, the Unit Pride soared. Part of in-processing for 101st was touring the Museum, and learned about the legacy of the 101st Airborne Division. 2ID was the same, when issued the Belgian Fourragere, it was explained what and why and how the device is worn. 17th Aviation Brigade, had picture on the walls all around the hangar of when the unit was activated. These pictures included the aircraft on mission in Vietnam. Many of the aircraft had a few tin can patch repairs. What I'm saying is, it all depends upon the Units and Bases that you go to, Units within 18th Airborne Corp, or are in a theater of operation seem to have a better Esprit De Corp, Units that are REMF, always in the rear, no real world mission, seem to have a poorer attitude

Response by CW2 Ernest Krutzsch made Sep 26 at 2014 7:04 AM

CW2 Ernest Krutzsch — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 07:04:14 -0400

I am currently reading Killing Patton by Bill O'Reilly. I think it is imperative that we teach history or we are doomed to repeat it as someone astutely stated. Unit History, Army History, US History are all being abandoned. Hell, In schools today America is vilified, we stole the country from the Indians, slaughtered them and we are the cause of all the Worlds problems. A Marine was forced by his HOA to remove a Marine Emblem from his vehicle. This world has gone nuts! But..Sir if you allowed the soldier to sit and salute, don't you at that point perpetuate the problem? I was Soldier of the Year for all of Europe in 1976, I knew everything there was to know about the 8th ID at that time. Unit history is part of Esprit de Corps, and should be mandatory!

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 26 at 2014 8:33 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:33:47 -0400

Have a lot to say here on this topic as I have seen so much subside over 3 decades of service. There have been huge set backs in what was heritage and Esprit de Corps in most branches and the services.

Several things off the top, folks who allow DA (Service level) Select promotions in uniforms other than the service uniform (I would say ASU, but we are in a joint environment here), the lack of wearing unit shirts, patches and the like for the sake of uniformity to the public (who normally is not on post observing 0600 PT), the dropping of customs such as solo cycle at flight school where the last aviator to actually solo has to ride a bike basically with no pedals and go the distance.

I will stop here to collect my thoughts and have a good Friday cause this kind of stuff can really place a burr under the saddle. Where is my damn coffee cup now?

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made Sep 26 at 2014 8:43 AM

CW5 Sam R. Baker — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 08:43:27 -0400

I did find a unit historical book on the floor in a pile of stuff for a re-flagged unit, not sure where it belonged, but I took it to the CSM and had him deal with it, was capturing a unit with articles and pics from the 70's thru Desert Storm.

Response by 1SG David Little made Sep 26 at 2014 9:10 AM

1SG David Little — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:10:21 -0400

I firmly believe that the history of the unit and branch is extremely important to the esprit de corps and morale of the individuals in any unit. I was assigned to the 5th Special Forces Group and I learned that the 5th SFG has the highest number of Medal of Honor winners than any other unit in not just the Army but in the U.S. Military. I was proud as hell to be a member of such an esteemed unit and never did anything which could bring any kind of shame or dishonor on my unit. It really does make a difference. Your unit is badass, which makes you feel badass. I now work at Fort Jackson as a Physical Security Specialist and some of the Basic Training Units really have a good and proud lineage, but the Cadre that are actually assigned to the unit know NOTHING of their own history, except seeing some pictures hanging on the wall. It is kind of sad to see such historical units losing their lineage and history and becoming a footnote due to the lack of respect and uncaring attitude of its assigned members.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 9:35 AM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 09:35:16 -0400

Here is the common theme I see in alot of these posts. The Army folks come on these forums looking for answers to leadership problems and challenges where as, the Marines come here to watch the show. We in the Marine Corps will keep things in house and fix it. I see alot of dirty laundry on Rally Point. You see an issue you correct it, don't go past it and then post the problems on a message board. I'm pretty sure even in the Army you have SNCO's in your units with vast experiance which you can gain invaluable knowledge from without coming to an open forum. This my friends is where Esprit de corps begins, because this is how your troops will see that you actually care about self improvement, troop growth, and unit cohesion.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 26 at 2014 11:04 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Sep 2014 11:04:39 -0400

I think the state of our historical knowledge/esprit de corps is abysmal. We, as a an Army, should be embarrassed by this. I recently had the opportunity to attend my niece's graduation at Fort Jackson. Recalling my own graduation from the Harmony Church school for wayward boys over 25 years ago, this was sad. It was a quick affair with little pomp and circumstance. Honestly, it was sad. My graduation consisted of pageantry and ceremony that included key historical points in the Army's Infantry history. It made you proud to be an Infantryman. That same day we took her to Fort Lee for her AIT. There, I observed a platoon of Marines marching. The Army troopers were walking individually and sad to say, looked like sad sacks. Ask most modern Soldiers about Nijmegen, Arnhem, Gold, Sword, Juno, Neptune, Ke Sahn, Urgent Fury, Dog Faced Soldier, etc and most likely you will get a blank stare. It's time we as an Army started reinforcing our history and heritage. It starts in Basic Training. Good grief, at Fort Bragg most units have ceremonies where the new troopers are awarded their DUI - it is something that should be Army wide. All American Week welcomes back paratroopers from all eras. You do not see this at Fort Umpty Dump....

How do we fix this? Teach history of the units, bring back ceremonies, make folks proud to be in their unit and to know it's lineage and history. Discipline, well, any squared away NCO can quickly fix those issues.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2014 1:48 AM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Sep 2014 01:48:46 -0400

I believe discipline begins before you join a service; however, it is the pride, teamwork, and honor you have for the service you join which pushes you to continue to build on your discipline. As an enlisted Soldier, I was used to the push-up type counseling and didn't think twice about it other than it made me stronger and yet today if you have a Soldier do push-ups; rather than write them yet another counseling statement, they can charge you with harassment. As a PFC, I was also used to standing at parade rest for a SPC or CPL, not because they demanded it, but because it was the right thing to do; to show respect to them as they earned that rank--this was especially enforced in the Ranger Battalion (they are one of the most disciplined Soldiers I have come across). I cringe each time I hear "we need to get back to basics" because as Soldiers, we know what to do and should not have to be told; that is initiative and the basics are something we should have never gotten away from. I have now spent 10 years as enlisted and another 21 as an Officer and I have observed that our Soldiers are disciplined and want to succeed; it is us as leaders that need to step it up and lead from the front.

Response by CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 27 at 2014 5:35 PM

CMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 27 Sep 2014 17:35:37 -0400

Sir,
During my 35 years (and counting) of active and ANG service I think I could write a book on this. I do agree wholeheartedly with your statements but the root causes go much deeper. I have watched our Air Force senior leadership systematically strip items from our hertitage that have hitorically been part of our unit pride and esprit de corps. By trade I an an aircraft crew chief and gone (mostly) are the days of individual aircraft nose art. Gone are unit patches, squadron ball caps, and squadron shirts. Throw 50,000 Air Force in a stadium and all you see is a homogenous mass of sage green ABU's. Then throw in an overwhelming focus on human relations soft skills, safety, and careerism, with a lack of attention to actual warfighting skills and you find our current situation. As I said, I think I could write a book and there are many more facets involved.
Where is the blame to be laid for our current state? Some have correctly said it is with the NCO's and I say that because I would never shirk my responsibility as an NCO. But it's really a problem that flows down from the highest levels. I'm sure most here are familiar with the term "management by exception" and I have a term which is "management by perception" and this describes, for me at least, how the AF is being run today. Our PT program is just an example. Quite a few years back, someone didn't like the way we looked doing PT in our own personal clothing. So millions are spent on PT uniforms that are wildy unpopular and uncomfortable. But we "look" good in them. Then some of the PT standards such as the waist measurement. Some would argue that a small waist is a good indicator of physical fitness. But let's be honest, it's really there because somone high up didn't like the way a gut looked.

So when perception is the focus rather than warfighting skills, it's going to create what we have today. Of course I have just touched on a few items as there are many more facets to all of this.
But then again, maybe I'm just one of those old timers who needs to retire.

Response by Cpl Glynis Sakowicz made Sep 28 at 2014 9:22 AM

Cpl Glynis Sakowicz — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 09:22:19 -0400

I have thought long and hard on your question about unit designations and history, and I think I've finally put my thoughts into an order that make a bit of sense.
Marines are taught MARINE history. We are soaked in the things that Marines have accomplished, and how they were accomplished. There is no distinction made between units, because we see ourselves as ONE UNIT, with two jobs, Air and Land. No other distinction matters.
Each Marine feels a kinship with those who served in the Revolution, just as easily as they feel those who serve now are family of a sort Its shoved into us far too deeply to ever make a distinction about units. WE are the Marine Corps... not the 24th MEU or H & HS, or VMAQ 214, we are simply THE MARINE CORPS. We see those battle ribbons on certain flags, and we think, "Oh, this one was here... or there, but it doesn't make a difference, we just see it as if one Marine served there, the Corps was there, and we take pride in each accomplishment, and grieve for each loss, because each belongs to us all.
I know, this probably makes little sense to those who aren't Marines, but its just our way...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2014 12:30 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 12:30:25 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, great question and commentary. I do agree service-members should learn the history of the unit they are assigned to. As a history buff, I find it fascinating to read about our past to see what it was like, both the good and the bad. When I was in Korea last year, there was barely any information on the unit I was assigned to. I did some digging and research to see what I could find. My unit, 275th Signal Company, originally was the 275th Signal Construction Company, briefly served in WW2, and was an all black unit. This eventually led me to purchase a book called "Fighting for America: Black Soldiers - The Unsung Heroes of World War II". It is a fascinating and very intriguing book. Highly recommend.

Response by Cpl Christopher Allen-Shinn made Sep 28 at 2014 4:51 PM

Cpl Christopher Allen-Shinn — Sun, 28 Sep 2014 16:51:59 -0400

As a civilian employee of the Naval History and Heritage Command, I often hear about the Navy leadership's desire to have Sailors value their history. My (unpopular) response: copy the model provided by the Corps, because they teach every Marine to value their heritage. It's part of the culture of the Corps, and provides the foundation for our warrior ethos. We are fierce fighters because we're stepped in the stories of the heroics of those who served before us and will never let our fellow Marines down. From the day I signed my delayed entry paperwork, I was provided information to learn and master before reporting to recruit training. I was taught classes in Marine Corps history (and tested on it) in boot camp, and any Marine will challenge you anytime about your knowledge of the heroes of the Corps. Finally, the new National Museum of the Marine Corps in Triangle, VA is Smithsonian quality. Don't try to re-invent the wheel, Navy; swallow your pride and copy the Corps.

Response by PV2 Robert Wright made Sep 29 at 2014 3:24 PM

PV2 Robert Wright — Mon, 29 Sep 2014 15:24:15 -0400

As an Army Private out of the military for nearly 20 years, I would agree with you, Lt. , that history has been lacking in military tradition for the U.S. Army. Unit re-designations occur so frequently it may be that the Army has decided that an expeditious transition outweighs the history of the awards we place on our uniforms that our units earned. Knowing why something is, versus "this is just the way it is", makes one feel a better sense of duty.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 30 at 2014 3:23 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 30 Sep 2014 03:23:24 -0400

Short answer, Sir?- YES! I am looking forward to another decade of service, and one of the qualities- especially in the reserves and national guard- that has been lost, is the idea that: This is not a job, it's a way of life. I think a bit of history would change it up for the better.

Response by GySgt Chris Lomelino made Oct 2 at 2014 7:06 AM

GySgt Chris Lomelino — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 07:06:46 -0400

Sir, yes you are absolutely correct that teaching the new Solders the history of the Army would bring to them a Esprit de Corps, just as in the Marine Corps. I served twenty years in the Marines, and we always took pride in the past accomplishments of fellow Marines. Part of being a Marine is understanding what it took to make the Corps what it is today, and to celebrate that those who came before setting the standards by which we live and operate. I am a firm believer that if you do not know your past you will ever see your future.

Response by LCpl Andrew Haag made Oct 2 at 2014 3:39 PM

LCpl Andrew Haag — Thu, 02 Oct 2014 15:39:42 -0400

Semper Fucking Fi.. I can still rattle off the major Marine Corps battles in all the wars. And its been 7 years since I was taught. Once a Marine Always a Marine.
2008-2012
3/8 L Co. 0311.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 4:07 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 04:07:09 -0400

Having served in both organization, I think I can give you a reason.

The Army is way to individualistic. Take a look at all the different units, such as Cav, Ranger, Engineers, Airborne, etc, and they all have their own complete set of customs and traditions. How many military balls do we have a year, one for each Army branch at least. USMC has one for 10 Nov 1775...birhtday of the USMC. Look at all the different uniform standards, SF, vs Airborne, vs Cav (and their silly Stetsons). With the Marines, it does not matter if you are an Aviator, Force Recon or Embassy guard; they ALL wear the same uniform. Marine first, everything else is secondary.

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 10:19 PM

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 22:19:25 -0400

I think that it starts from the beginning, from the time that you decide that you want to join the Military, regardless of the branch, you should learn the history. When you are in DEP you should learn the history, I know that when I was in BCT we learned the history of my BCT unit (D. Co 3-34 IN BN 165th IN BDE),I learned the history of my AIT unit, (A. Co. 305th MI BN, 111th MI BDE) I learned the history of my first unit in the Army (D. Co. 204th MI BN, 470th MI BDE), and now with my current unit (B. Co. HHBN 2ID). I think that the history of the unit helps us to know where we as a fighting force comes from and where we are heading. It helps us to learn why there are certain things that are done and why the leaders do what they do. I tell me soldiers almost everyday that there is nothing that is done in the Army for no reason. Even though most things seem that way, there is a purpose behind everything that we do. But it is our job as leaders to teach the history and the traditions and heritage of not just our units, and our branch, but also of our Service as well. I want my soldiers to know why the Army is organized the way that it is, and what it is that we do as soldiers, aside from our MOS. I do think it starts with a lack of respect and discipline though. I had a Soldier say to me one day, "Hey man, what's going on?" this was a PV2 who is in my section, and this was the second time that I saw this soldier since he has been here. I corrected him and his actions and explained to him how the rank structure works and why we have it and why it is the way that it is. I have explained to all of my soldiers that I am really big on Discipline and respect as I think that without these two, then our Military is nothing. The History, Traditions, Heritage, Discipline, and Respect, all go hand in hand.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Oct 6 at 2014 9:25 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Mon, 06 Oct 2014 09:25:13 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member I totally agree with you that more emphasis should be placed on military customs, traditions and history in Army units.

I remember as a 2LT in the 2nd Bn, 4th Inf, the second oldest active duty unit after the Old Guard, being given a task by my company commander to research and present to the company the unit history. I took the task very seriously and, as I got into the research, I really enjoyed learning about the history of my unit. I presented the class, detailing the glorious (and, at times, not so glorious) history of the unit. It was a big hit with the troops, particularly as I explained each battle streamer on our battalion colors and what our unit did to earn it, as well as the "funny" things we had been involved in (i.e., Custer's reinforcement at Little Big Horn - got there a little late; the first casualty of the Civil War - soldier fell of a gangplank getting on a boat and drowned); and our mission to secure Washington, DC during the War of 1812 - when Washington was burned by the British). As a result, I was tasked to present the class to all companies in the battalion and at an Officer's Call at Brigade. That was more than 40 years ago, but I remember it like it was yesterday.

As a battalion commander, I required all newly arriving personnel to read our unit history (the most decorated MP battalion in the Army, at the time) and I instituted a policy that welcomed each new member into the unit during our Pay Day Formation in which all new arrivals each month were marched forward in formation, called forward individually, introduced to the unit, and presented their unit crests by the Command Sergeant Major and myself.

I think that some units do this better than others. It is up to the commander. It is something that should, however, get added emphasis.

Response by SGT Stephen Smith made Oct 7 at 2014 1:23 PM

SGT Stephen Smith — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 13:23:42 -0400

We have become too focused on trying to get people to sign the "dotted line." We have lost focus on what is really important, and are providing too much "cushion" to Soldiers. We give Soldiers who are "broken" on profile the privilege to work the gates and be in essence our gate keepers. Some how we have turned this into a all you can eat pizza and wings fest where we halfheartedly check Identification. My CAC is 5 days from expiration date and in the last month only one person has said anything about it. This was in November and not in October. We have NCO and Officers who do not care about theirs Soldiers or their work. Just showing up to a range in your Up Armored Vehicle and stopping a range just so you can qualify is not the way to be a leader. As a leader you truly should have qualified the day before to "verify" the targets. Then on the day of the range, where you have scheduled the range, that should be you place of duty. I am sure any BN CMD or BDE CMD would understand if you say, sir today is range day I am not able to come to any meetings or staff calls my schedule is blocked off for my "joes" they need to see more of my as their commander. This is exactly what one of the commanders in an Infantry Unit did somewhere (in case he sees this I don't want him to know I'm talking about him). He would come to the range and oversee the training. When he wanted to get his joes to do a new maneuver he would demonstrate what he wanted and exactly how he wanted to see it done. He would drill them the entire day from crawl, walk and run phases to using live rounds. At times as the Medic I'm thinking to myself "Yep.... this is the day I finally have to do my job." Mentally preparing myself. It is leadership like that that makes me want to keep up the standard. As and Officer, your immediate response to the forgotten CAC should have been a counseling statement and accountability of the Identification Card. His first line is to report to you at the begining of the day and at the end of the day that the Soldier has positive control of his ID. CAC's are the way to get into the NIPER and to begin a Cyberattck on the DoD. This is a simple Trojan Horse Tactic. Also as far as the Soldier who saluted you without a care in the world his first line should present him with about a weeks worth of refresher training from basic on drill and ceremony and customs and courtesies. RBI's are worthless and teach Soldiers nothing. Repetition and letting them know that I am here for you I can take care of you personally and professionally but you must first do you job is they way to lead a Soldier. I had an NCO who took care of my personally, but did not know the first thing about being a leader. This is not the NCO way and this is no the Officer way. I see there are still leaders like the CPT below who care and this is what we need in MY ARMY.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2014 8:25 PM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 07 Oct 2014 20:25:43 -0400

This was very moving sir! Thank you for sharing this. Made me realize alot of things my unit has done.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 2:50 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 02:50:30 -0400

As an MP of 21 yrs. both active and reserve.. I can tell you this.. A Military Police on duty is not "required" to salute either at the gate to an entry point.. The Salute while performing Military Police duties it a "Curtesy" NOT a requirement.. However, 9 times out of 10 an MP on duty will and should render a proper Military Salute
The actions of this "half hearted" salute would not have been tolerated on my watch... I apologize for those NCO's that should have taught this soldier better an offer you a proper Military salute. Remember Sir, Attitude Reflects Leadership..

I also agree with you..Unit and Military history should always be taught beyond the halls of the "Lessons Learned" classroom.. but at the Company, Squad and team level.. You as a leader can implement this program and when yo become a Company Commander you can oversee it. I was stationed at Camp LeJune, N.C. I could feel the Esprit De Corps that was there and I enjoyed the closeness of the brotherhood that I was adopted into..

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 8 at 2014 1:26 PM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 08 Oct 2014 13:26:30 -0400

1LT Rosa, unless there is some security policy that contradicts saluting (like we have in combat zone) when you can safely do so, park and make an on the spot correction. Otherwise contact his chain of command as tactfully as you can. Make it clear that the issue isn't just an LT demanding a salute. It's more than just about saluting, it's about being alert, which the salute indicates. It's about discipline to maintain alertness. I would not want a solder on "guard" sitting on his butt. Encourages sloppiness. Yet I am seeing it at several installations.

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 12 at 2014 6:11 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 18:11:00 -0400

What's there not to love about the CAV???

Response by SFC Mark Merino made Oct 12 at 2014 6:12 PM

SFC Mark Merino — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 18:12:15 -0400

Someone's getting their combat spurs!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2014 10:09 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 12 Oct 2014 22:09:06 -0400

There is a far cry between 1776 traditional history and today's men and women who have volunteered to join the military. Change is inevitable and traditions turn into myths. Soldiers that lack the discipline to perform their duties when required and soldiers that fail to do their duties due to ignorance are two very different animals. Then the separation of duty from honor and values and even esprit de corps, stem from upbringing and traditional education. It our job as NCOs to enforce the discipline taken to ensure that our traditions don't fall to the way side. The NCO corps needs to constantly educate our soldiers on much more than tradition, we need to train, and maintain the discipline of that force. Failures in that area aren't due to recruiting tools used, it is simply failure from the NCOs themselves lacking in proper leadership training. This is what it comes down to, that is what I volunteered for and that is the responsibility of the NCO Corps and its promises that were made when we took the oath. Our job was to ensure you could do yours by supporting the commanders intent. That is truly what the NCOs are meant to do. If that soldier wanted to be saluted maybe he or she should have sacrificed his time and money, went to college, and joined the commissioned side of the house. Bad day or not we must ensure we embrace our traditions and add to them.

Good luck with the remainder of your tour of duty, Sir, and keep up the good fight.

Response by LTC Mark Gavula made Oct 13 at 2014 12:45 PM

LTC Mark Gavula — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 12:45:02 -0400

Many branch specific customs and traditions are being forgotten. There are many reasons for this, and the reasons really don't matter. As executive director of the Cavalry & Armor Association, it is our mission to preserve our lineage and heritage of cavalry & armor. We are only as strong and effective as our membership numbers. Branch associations whether Infantry, Field Artillery, Aviation Military Police etc serve a role and need your support to survive. Since, the beginning of FY 2014 TRADOC doesn't print branch journals any longer due to funding issues. The Associations, private organizations, can and need your help to continue doing this. The Cavalry & Armor Association assists Armor and Cavalry with the Sullivan Cup and Gainey Cup. Consider supporting your branch association.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2014 12:53 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 13 Oct 2014 12:53:52 -0400

Yes I like a lot of the Marine culture, the warrior aspect they place on themselves. Their historical pride.

28th ID the unit I am in is the longest serving infantry division in the army. They were in Battle of Bulge and many other engagements. There's even a shout out to them in Band of Brothers.

It is up to you to give guidance for hip pocket training and gaps after having gone over the history with your NCOs, maybe give them choice clips from movies, books etc or small excerpts from readings a drill prior for them to sit down and take young soldiers through what they are apart of.

Units take on the personae of their commander so if it is a concern for you and you implement it correctly, make it enjoyable for them and empower the NCOs to make it happen , so shall it be.

Response by CSM Guy R. Niles made Nov 4 at 2014 5:19 PM

CSM Guy R. Niles — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:19:47 -0500

I absolutely agree with LT Eric Rosa; however, I would ask, why Sir, did you bypass or (seeminghly) drive away from the incident without comment to the Soldier on that post or summon his/her Supervisor? You had an opportunity to make a real impression on that Soldier and Noncom regarding Militart Tradition, Customs, and Courtesies. Sir, it is not hard to find out which Red-Cycle Unit has which TCP/Checkpoint. I believe that the worls breaths a (collective) sigh of relief that I retired 8+ years ago, otherwise there would be small Mushroom Clouds appearing all over your particular Installation. Never, Sir, never, walk, run, jog, or drive past a problem that you can immediately affect change.

As far as re-instilling Esprit de Corps and (General) Pride in Self, in Unit, and in Uniform, I am all for it. All of us should endeavor to correct what is amiss every damn day, regardless of who it is or where you are. There is a method for (almost) every scenario. For all of you Guys and Gals out there still serving, I Love and Respect ya, and I'm here to help it all along!

Guy R. Niles
CSM(R), United States Cavalry

Response by CSM Guy R. Niles made Nov 4 at 2014 5:36 PM

CSM Guy R. Niles — Tue, 04 Nov 2014 17:36:50 -0500

Respond to original question…: I would love to have a one-on-one session with your Platoon Sergeant!

Response by SN Brian Riter made Nov 5 at 2014 6:43 AM

SN Brian Riter — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 06:43:24 -0500

i honestly believe that military history is important and should be brought to unit, divisions, departments etc. For instance i know that when i went through navy boot camp naval history was taught and they taught us that we should never forget our history.

Response by SGT Terry White made Nov 5 at 2014 9:45 AM

SGT Terry White — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 09:45:06 -0500

I was in the Maine Army NG for 14 years and the best salute I ever saw was in MCBH, Kaneohe Bay. I was with my father who retired as a BG and it was the smartest, cleanest, snappiest salute ever. Dad and looked at each other and said WOW!

Response by SSG Christopher Parrish made Nov 5 at 2014 1:27 PM

SSG Christopher Parrish — Wed, 05 Nov 2014 13:27:49 -0500

I learned more about Army history while in JROTC than I ever did in the Army. I'm now in the Texas State Guard, and during the 19th RGT Spur Ride I was pleased to know that one of the stations we had to visit was about the history of the Texas State Guard and the 19th RGT (Parson's Brigade).

Here are some highlights:

• The original Parson’s Brigade was formed in the Spring of 1862 by COL Nathaniel M.

Burford of Dallas, Texas as the 19th Texas Cavalry.

• The 19th was successively attached to Hawes’, Cater’s, Flourney’s, Steel’s, and Parson’s

Brigade of the Trans-Mississippi Department.

• The Brigade was disbanded in Marshall, Texas in May 1865.

• On 10 FEB 1941, the Defense Act (H.B. No. 45) authorized a volunteer militia.

• Volunteers from the Northeast Texas area were constituted as the 19th, 29th, 35th, and

51st Battalions of the Texas Defense Guard.

• These units remained active throughout World War II and in 1943 the 48th Legislature

changed the name of the Defense Guard to Texas State Guard.

• After the Texas State Guard was inactivated on 28 AUG 1947 (AGTX-GO 21), the 50th

Legislature re-authorized the Texas State Guard Reserve Corps on 26 JAN 1948 (AGTX-GO 4) and the unit reformed and designated the 6th Regiment including an ROTC section.

• In 1958 the unit was re-designated the 1st Military Defense Group and in 1965 renamed

the 102nd Military Police Battalion.

• In 1984 the unit was designated the 9th Military Police Group.

• When the Texas State Guard reorganized on 1 JUL 1993 elements of the 7th and 9th

Military Police Groups were combined and designated as the 19th Brigade and the name

Parson’s Brigade was reclaimed for the unit.

Response by SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr made Nov 11 at 2014 1:58 PM

SFC Wesley Arnold, Jr — Tue, 11 Nov 2014 13:58:56 -0500

Lt Rosa, you bring out I also think is a key part of maintaining unit moral ... What good is it to ware unit awards / citations if you don't know how they were earned? Even worse is being in a unit that receives a citation and not know the exact reason you earned it.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2014 11:55 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 14 Nov 2014 11:55:10 -0500

LT Rosa, this is something that I've observed since the beginning of my service. I went to Basic Training at Ft. Leonardwood, and as such learned about SFC Paul Smith. Other than him, there was little taught about the HISTORY of the US Army. We have a great tradition, and one of the things that I've attempted to do from the time I was a PFC is to bring a sense of history and pride to my peers and unit.
Most of the replies that I've read in this thread deal entirely with the gate incident which is only part of a larger issue. I will agree with those who sympathize with the soldier. It gets old in a hurry when you salute and get a half hearted salute in return, or far more frequently than I would like to admit, for the sake of the Army no return salute at all. In all fairness, most officers do return a salute with vim, but for every SPC who hates saluting there's an officer too. HOWEVER, when you have pride in yourself, in the Army, and in your unit, you don't let the actions of other get you down! And this is where tradition plays it's part. History encourages us to hold a standard, and do a thankless job, down to a proper salute. I can't change the way the Army operates, or what it does; but I can change the Army that my team and the soldiers around me experience. That means teaching subordinates and peers about the history of the Army, and of our particular unit. It also means treating them with respect, which DOES NOT require being soft, just having respect, even when correcting soldiers.

Response by SSG Jason Cherry made Nov 14 at 2014 2:33 PM

SSG Jason Cherry — Fri, 14 Nov 2014 14:33:34 -0500

The last bastion of pride flew out the window with straight-out-of-the-laundry wrinkle bag ACU's and the tan boots. No more press, no more shine. The last thing to be proud of on a daily basis that you could display, was thrown out the window. I enjoyed the hell out of making my uniform look right. Now I just wake up and slap my velcro patches on and go about my day.

The Army doesn't have any use for history it seems, other than to write a paper for one of the schools, or when attending a promotion board. People scoff at having to do ceremonies. Most people couldn't call a cadence if their life depended on it, or march troops from A to B.

Bottom line, the Army has too many good idea fairies that come up with complete BS, with no practical application or value, that detracts from Soldiers' morale and esprit de corps. Heck, TRADOC even moved to a college campus style environment because it was too stressful. The Army is how it is, because the Army is a giant daycare full of babies and baby coddlers anyone else who doesn't fit into those categories is trying like hell to fix it, or said to hell with it and is retiring.

The Marines weed all that out at basic. The weak minded just don't make it. The I'm gonna do just enough to get by don't make it. They instill pride in the Corps and pride in self from the start. The Army just wants you do some stuff and they will sucker you into doing it with some treats. The Marines give you something to be proud of.

That being said, I am proud of my service, and the Army, because the Army has done a lot for our country. We have an illustrious history to accompany the tales of any other service. I'm also proud of myself for the contributions I make, trying to affect change, and restoring our service to a position of pride... instead of being part of the latest tragic story on the cover of a newspaper.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Nov 16 at 2014 12:56 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 12:56:58 -0500

I saw much of what is reflected in this thread during my years on active duty. Command only being interested in how far THEY could get them selves and what made them look good, NCO's being the same way, Stabbing each other in the back for the good of Their career.Little time was invested on the soldier and how to form them into a better soldier, they saw this, saw the old favorite soldier game played time and time again and took it to heart. The saying "Sh** rolls down hill"" really had an impact during this time and can be clearly seen today. These soldiers coming up through the ranks back then are now the ones who are making all these changes today and its the same generation that is having an impact on modern youth and the way they are raised/ignored. Its no wonder some branches of service have gone to pot in that direction and I challenge every new Officer and NCO to maintain what little is left of the old way of training and teaching your soldiers that they are the most important aspect of the military and their proper training is vital to this countries existence as we all know it.There is not a single thing that can be accomplished in any branch with out the soldiers, I believe that too many NCO's and Officers have forgotten their roots .

Response by SFC Dave Joslin made Nov 16 at 2014 2:04 PM

SFC Dave Joslin — Sun, 16 Nov 2014 14:04:18 -0500

Sir, I couldn't agree with you more. Like you, I served in a unit that was awarded the Fourragere, and like you I was simply instructed to go to clothing and sales, and make sure it was on my "A's" properly. This I thought was sad....

As a history buff, it saddened me to see in my last few years before my retirement, that Soldiers only learned about unit history to prepare for a board and then promptly brain dumped the information until their next board. The road that we, as a military, traveled down to get to where we are todays defines us! This should drive pride and honor, and when times are hard on the battlefield - give us the fortitude to push forward. While on a mountainside in Afghanistan, when the enemy was bringing it to us pretty good, and I felt distraught and overwhelmed, I thought of my Grandfather in WWII and my Father in Vietnam - they had it way worse than me....it was inspiring, it pushed me out of a mental hole and kept my head in the fight! Knowing your heritage, be it personal or institutional, not just builds the sense of esprit de corps, that macho pride - but when you are knee deep into embracing the suck, it can give you the edge to drive forward, living up to the example that was set before you!

WE (active, retired, reserves - doesn't matter), we have to find a way to make this important to us again!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 21 at 2014 5:23 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 21 Nov 2014 05:23:59 -0500

I agree that history and the accomplishments of those before still need to be recognized. I also believe that those of us who spent the last 13 years in the middle east would want our grandchildren to remember what we did.
I know it is difficult for some units to have pride in their predecessors, but they can try. If you did deep enough in a units history their usually are a few Soldiers that did extraordinary acts all over the world. It's easy when your in a unit like the 82nd and the 101st because they've been around for the biggest conflicts this countries been a part of for the last 100 years.
Two years ago if you asked me what I thought about a CAV unit I would probably laugh at you, but after spending time in 1-40th(4-25) I've began to understand the history and lineage that is the Cavalry. I still wear my blue cord and jump boots with all the pride in my heart but if I am going to be in a unit such as 1-40th I should get to understand and embrace their history, as well as that of the cavalry's.
When I was stationed at Fort Bragg, I was constantly reminded of those who shaped what the division is today, for example, Towle stadium, Funk gym, Pike Field.... I definitely believe that educating new Soldiers on the history of their units is the right thing, and hopefully if they aren't hard cases, then they may begin to take more pride in their units and the way they conduct themselves.

Response by SGT Jonathan Persons made Nov 25 at 2014 5:04 PM

SGT Jonathan Persons — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 17:04:32 -0500

I work at the museum on Ft Drum and I can say that you are correct in your observations that most of the units on post do not have any sort of program where we teach the new members the history of the unit. It is something that the curator has spoken about, and we (the museum) have started working with the individual units to try and help them with their histories.
The 10th Mtn Division Association has tried to reach out, but I am not sure how well they have been received.

Response by Cpl Brett Wagner made Nov 25 at 2014 8:35 PM

Cpl Brett Wagner — Tue, 25 Nov 2014 20:35:02 -0500

1LT Eric Rosa - Not being a jerk here but a pet peeve of mine (as one of the persons who helped build DoD PKI) it is not a CAC Card. CAC stands for Common Access Card so if you say CAC Card you are saying Common Access Card Card.
Second point I attended Marine Corps boot camp in 1979 and we had what was referred to as "The Big Red Monster" it was a book 8x11 about 3-4 inches thick filled with Marine Corps history that you would be tested on and if you failed you would be given the great opportunity to recycle back through that phase of boot camp. The 6th Marine Regiment was just once small piece we needed to know. I had the great honor of having Col Harvey C. Barnum, Jr. medal of honor recipient as my battalion commander. The only relaxing thing we did in boot camp was watch the movie the Marine Corps made about Col Barnum.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 28 at 2014 8:23 AM

SGM Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 28 Nov 2014 08:23:23 -0500

The Marines have always sold a "fantasy" in their recruiting advertisements (like the one that shows the guy climbing a pillar, or playing with swords) whereas the Army seems to focus on getting job training. (Yes swords bring esprit de corps, but it's still "playing" unless you really plan on charging a machine gun with a sword in your hand.)

While I would like more esprit de corps in the Army, this isn't a top down thing. Oh it could be supported, but if the unit's officers and NCOs don't start, stand behind, and push it, it ain't gonna happen. And there are too many soldiers who think this is a 9 to 5 job, over when the whistle blows.

It is a little different in high-speed, low-drag units, where dining-ins, propblasts, and unit history books are more common.

So, my suggestion is obvious. It starts with YOU, whoever you are who is interested in the history of your unit. You can look up the history. You can start a scrapbook. You can contribute videos shot with your cell phone. You can plan anniversaries of historical events. If you don't do something, who will?

Response by SPC John Decker made Dec 8 at 2014 8:34 PM

SPC John Decker — Mon, 08 Dec 2014 20:34:59 -0500

I agree with your thinking on unit history. When I was in, I witnessed several enlisted personnel getting reprimanded for failure to show proper respect to an officer. Myself included, though my story is kind of long, I'll just say the dis-respect was not intentional. I would say it was on you to either say something to him or report him to his unit superiors.

Response by SSG Eric M Hersh made Dec 9 at 2014 1:49 AM

SSG Eric M Hersh — Tue, 09 Dec 2014 01:49:00 -0500

ma bee he was a boarder patrol person like the fake men at our airports and streets near the airport. there is only one place u do not have to salute and that is a war zone we were in Vietnam and never wore rank but a nod was just as good thanks 4 your service emhersh Vietnam 1968 to 70

Response by 1SG Cameron M. Wesson made Dec 9 at 2014 1:17 PM

1SG Cameron M. Wesson — Tue, 09 Dec 2014 13:17:00 -0500

I apologize if I duplicate any ones post however.... here goes.

It starts with the NCO Corps... and it dies with the NCO Corps.

We are the passers of history, lessons learned, and the keepers of the "standard". If we fail... then we fail the soldiers... the service.. and the country.

To answer your question as to "why the soldier would act that way"... beats the devil out of me; however, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that he/she didn't know better... that is beat into each and everyone of us day one... well, maybe not beat anymore; however, deeply ingrained. I'm sure that if it was corrected on the spot... which I'm sure it was... and then reported to the Officer/NCO of the guard... which may or may not have happened... some corrective action would have taken place almost immediately.

Traditions: They are alive and well... but their in pockets around the Army. The Blue'ing ceremony of the Infantry, Spurs of the Cav, EIC/CIB/CAB Ceremonies, RIP for Ranger Regiment and award of the beret, and many, many more... so don't despair... make a difference where you are.. your unit. That's what a lot of this is about... in my opinion and experience. Even as a TRUCK 1SG... when a soldier completed the Convoy Commanders Course... he got a card from the BN CDR that said he/she was certified to serve as a convoy commander. That is a big deal to a SPC... believe it or not.

History... Now, I can and will only speak for myself and no one else; however, I could, and have, provided college professors instruction on military history. Out of a 22 year career I spent 11+ with the 101st (don't hate) to include a few trips across the pond and know that units history like the back of my hand. This includes the 187th and 327th histories and to a lesser extent the 502nd and the 506th. These were soldier of the month board questions, or guard mount questions, or even company training... and even NCO call. To this end there are all types of techniques that can be used; however, the employment is key. In my opinion, the most inspirational technique is are the old soldiers (way older than me) given testimony... regardless of the embellishment. Sit around one of the tables during the "Week of the Eagles" I was fortunate enough to serve when there were still many WWII vets... listening to their accounts "Made Me" want to know more.

Lastly, before we "wring our hands" and "lament" on failures... I'd ask you to consider the success. Ask a soldier for the 82 to receipt blood on the risers... ask a ranger to repeat the ranger creed... and ask a 101st soldier who "Billy Lee" is...

My 2 cents

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 9 at 2014 8:56 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Dec 2014 20:56:31 -0500

It's our collective fault in the Army that we have drifted from the traditions and customs that we once knew. I believe this occurred when we stepped up our OPTEMPO to a war footing and ended up wearing the ACU's for virtually every function conceivable. I believe it was the Army Chief of Staff that wanted us to be "one" with those in the field. That is fine and I agree that we must be one with our brothers and sisters in combat - there also comes a time when we must exhibit the spit and polish of our traditions. I remember watching the ceremony at Fort Hood when President Obama came to address the military and community after the shootings. All through out the crowd were uniformed members looking sharp in their dress uniforms - and then there was the Army in our wrinkled pajama ACU uniform.

Until we start to reclaim our traditions - the customs and courtesies that define who we are and where we have come from we are always going to be wondering "what happened".

Response by PO3 Austin McKay made Dec 11 at 2014 2:47 PM

PO3 Austin McKay — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 14:47:14 -0500

I think the answer to this is two sided. I'm not taking a side but merely giving insight in to the enlisted mans world. Having to stand post, especially if they are security/MP status, can get monotonous over the course of ones enlistment. Not every job in the military is an exciting one. It can dull ones moral down very quickly. Twelve hour duty driver once a month was terrible for me, not because I was on duty, but because of how boring and uninspiring that kind of work is. Maybe he was at the end of a long shift, maybe he has something going on in his personal life that made his day worse. It's hard to know exactly without asking him. Maybe he's one of the ones that really just hates being in the military and just doesn't care. I've met a few like that and they would do the same kind of things. However, he signed the contract just like you and I and a part of that is rendering courtesies.

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 18 at 2014 4:49 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Dec 2014 16:49:46 -0500

LT,

This is an awesoem post and I've brought up this very point in the past. The Marines have created a brand that members want to be a part of. The Army has lost this in many aspects. There are too many people that forget the meaning of this job a couple months after AIT.

I read your first paragraph thinking "does this LT think he deserves the red carpet rolled out for him". As I continued to read I realized that this might be one of the best posts I've read on this site. The point you made about the French Fourragere stop me in my tracks. We wear these unit awards and decorations and literally the only thing most people are concerned about is how much it will cost or where they go. The majority of Soldiers probably don't know which award is which and certainly not the stroy behind the award.

Overall, this post just put an excellent twist on a growing issue.

Response by PO3 Paul Stai made Dec 20 at 2014 2:03 PM

PO3 Paul Stai — Sat, 20 Dec 2014 14:03:38 -0500

Damn the the torpedoes and full speed ahead. The Navy is big on tradition and history also but we could a lesson in professionalism and esprit de corp from our brother Marines. Making an old salt march properly is problematic ( sea legs don't make for good marching) but there is no excuse for sloppy salutes and failing to demonstrate pride and professionalism...

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2014 1:32 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 22 Dec 2014 13:32:05 -0500

The Army has a very rich history, unfortunately there is very little going on to pass on our heritage. During my last NCOQ Board my CSM asked me to name a important General so I answered General McChrystal, he then asked me to name a important enlisted person, it took me a bit to think of a MOH recipient. He then pointed out to me we are failing as enlisted personnel in keeping our heritage alive. I think it is paramount that we hold on to our roots and our history.

Response by SSG(P) Matthew Bisbee made Dec 24 at 2014 10:09 PM

SSG(P) Matthew Bisbee — Wed, 24 Dec 2014 22:09:43 -0500

I joined the Army specifically for the history of the unit I was going to. I read everything that I could on the 82nd Airborne Division from its original formation during WWI through WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, and Grenada. I knew why we wore the French Fourragere and both Presidential Unit Citations. It was my desire to be a part of that history that made me want to join. I have made it a point to know the unit histories of every unit that I have been a part of and to share that knowledge with my subordinates.

Response by SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2014 3:25 AM

SPC(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Dec 2014 03:25:42 -0500

A caveat to the original post, having been a member of the 82nd ABN Div, I immediately noticed the pride of this unit wherein it was strongly urged to know the history and origin of the Division, even extending to the pre-Abn days.
In addition, having been a member of 1-17 Cav, within 82nd CAB, nearly all of the Cavalry related awards, ceremonies and affects were surrounded by Cav history, ceremony and relevance to the unit.
My point, is that there is still genuine esprit de corps to be found that is grounded in knowledge of history and pride. Unfortunately though, this is not found as nearly frequently as many of us, especially combat vets, feel it should.
*Note- Though I am no longer a member of either previously mentioned Units, I still keep my maroon beret, Stetson and Combat Spurs with me regardless of my assigned unit. I do this out of respect for these Units and in memory of those that were lost. That's just my personal choice.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2014 4:32 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 16:32:44 -0500

Why the Marine Corps will never have a problem with history or heritage. And why there will always be a Marine Corps. And thank you Capt Walter Miller for posting this in another thread.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=vPg2Kf-jYeA

The Marines - PBS Documentary (full length)

This is a well done and high-quality documentary on the United States Marine Corps. I posted it so people could view it without having to watch it in multipl...

Response by CPL Jay Freeman made Dec 26 at 2014 11:43 PM

CPL Jay Freeman — Fri, 26 Dec 2014 23:43:02 -0500

This is very true I do not think we should strip soldiers of there units and rolls where would the pride go. I am a former Cav Scout I held my head high I am proud of the roll I had in the army.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 28 at 2014 8:34 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Dec 2014 20:34:08 -0500

I noticed the Army commericals have changed lately to emphasize the service and patriotism more the benefits. I see more combat type action scenes. I believe that those appeals sell much better than tangible benefits. i joined the military (thru Army ROTC at the tail end of the Vietnam era when the military paid far less than comparable civilian jobs and far fewer benefts!

Response by SFC Steven Steingiesser made Jan 1 at 2015 5:18 AM

SFC Steven Steingiesser — Thu, 01 Jan 2015 05:18:52 -0500

There is a definite difference in culture from the Army to the Marines. Marines tend to value their history more than the Army does. The Army tried changing this at the Army level back when we went to the dreaded black beret in 2002 by wanting an Army history test to be given. Unfortunately, that never moved out of the proposed ideas phase, as there was little buy in at the lower levels. For Army history to be important, it must be made important at the first line leader's level. Squads and platoons need to push it. In my platoon, this is something I try to push as it gives pride in our service and allows for better understanding of our current events.
As for the basic discipline by the gate guard, if there is a guard, there is a Sergeant of the Guard, whose job is to ensure proper discipline within his guard mounts. However, he cannot be everywhere at once, notifying him of a lack of discipline by one of his gate guards is a quick way to get that fixed.

Response by CW4 John Beebe, BS, DML made Jan 2 at 2015 2:52 PM

CW4 John Beebe, BS, DML — Fri, 02 Jan 2015 14:52:31 -0500

Well said and so true. I have the same experience in observing my Army as somewhat out of touch with it's legacy unless you are in a major division. More pride in the unit is instilled when the bar is raised to that of its predecessors and current members. We are in the greatest profession on earth and yet our young one's have no idea because we don't tell them and show they why it is so good. The fault lies on those that lead, for not leading the young to success. One way to succeed is to know your past so that you may more accurately navigate your future. Don't lose prestige and honor like the rest of the public has done. I make corrections about his on my installation to privates and NCO's almost every day. It breaks my heart that we are becoming just a job and not a profession.

Response by MSgt Rick Runion made Jan 6 at 2015 4:13 PM

MSgt Rick Runion — Tue, 06 Jan 2015 16:13:58 -0500

As someone who served in both the Army and Marines I can tell you that the soldiers lack of discipline and shear disrespect for your rank was unacceptable by the standards of all services.
Sir, If I were you I would never have let that soldier get away with it.
Simply requiring him to properly render respect for your rank can go a long way.
I never met a Marine Officer that would have just moved on after being treated with such insubordinate behavior. And as an NCO and SNCO you would have had to beat me to the punch in making that correction.
Sir, it is the responsibility of ALL leaders to TRAIN up their subordinates in all things that will help them to be a success on the battlefield.
The basic beginnings of this process is discipline as in the instant and immediate reaction to orders and respect for the authority from which those orders came.
Without discipline the basic military unit cannot function efficiently.
Without discipline the basic respect for the authority of command will become complacent at best.
Without discipline systemic problems like insubordination and low morale will fester into what can be deadly consequences.
The primary tool to instill discipline within a unit is leadership by example.
If you want a young Marine or Soldier to respect your authority then show them how it's done. And then require them to follow your example.
This is leadership 101 here.
I found during my years of leading Marines the mantra of Leadership by Example to be a very effective tool to motivate my Marines to willingly give 100% of themselves.
The next step is to Lead from the Front. I would never ask a Marine to do anything that they were not confidant that I was absolutely ready, willing, and able to do myself.
When a leader sees a lack of discipline it is their responsibility and duty take corrective action.
This is imperative to the basic leadership principles of mission accomplishment and troop welfare.
The benefits to good discipline is that your troops will build pride, esprit de corps, initiative and motivation.
Some think instilling discipline means hard nose tactics of screaming and yelling and play acting the bad guy. Nothing could be farther from the truth!
There are 2 basic styles of leadership Authoritarian and Persuasive. A good leader learns how to fluidly balance those in accordance with what is needed at the time.
I've known many great leaders who were even tempered and calm. Yet their subordinates never doubted or questioned their authority. Their success began with the the aforementioned principles of leading by example and leading from the front.
And by their own example those under them knew and understood that they would never tolerate insubordinate behavior.
So you see if you want your troops to care enough about a little thing like rendering respect through a proper salute you have to show them that it is just as important to you.
Do you think that as a SNCO if I were to nonchalantly blow off officers in front of my troops that they might get the idea that I don't respect authority? You are darn right they will.
As a leader my goal was to consistently ensure that I would not tolerate insubordination.
These principles were first demonstrated and taught to me by SSG Pedro Vega, my Plt Sgt when I was a young troop in the Army. He was a little guy, very level headed, and even humble at times, but his walk and his talk were pure soldier through and through. His example of discipline and character demonstrated to us that he truly cared for his troops and we were willing to follow him anywhere. He set a standard that we were willing to strive to achieve. And guess what I spent the rest of my career building on and successfully leading by his example.
I could go on all day about how important these basic principles are but you probably get my drift by now.
My final point in this little rant is that when the basics are instilled properly then you can challenge your troops to care about things like Unit History, Customs and Courtesy, pride in the organization, and basic combat skills. They will want to strive to get better with a goal to be the best.
All the above are building blocks that lead to success in combat. After all that's what it's about right?

Response by Cpl Anthony Pearson made Jan 8 at 2015 3:21 PM

Cpl Anthony Pearson — Thu, 08 Jan 2015 15:21:57 -0500

Great article. Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us. I'm sure many other RallyPoint folks agree with you.

I think someone who is guarding a gate/checkpoint should be SQUARED AWAY, and sharp as hell. Rendering a professional, tight salute, leaving no question about his or her ability to defend their post and respect those officers who pass their post.

I am hoping, and pretty certain, that most Army bases have better representation at their gates.

I have never visited a Marine Corps base and witnessed anything other than a squared away Marine defending the gate/entryway.

Response by SSG Dave Rogers made Jan 21 at 2015 6:05 AM

SSG Dave Rogers — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 06:05:25 -0500

It is sad that not all units have a greater appreciation for the history of their unit. I have been in units that have taken it seriously and have had events, lessons and even test, and I have been in other units that simply gave you a list of things to wear. I always felt that this was something that should be enforced Army wide. I took interest in it because early on in my career my section leader sent me to soldier boards and things like the units history and awards received by the unit was part of the boards.

Response by SGT Jim Z. made Jan 21 at 2015 11:07 AM

SGT Jim Z. — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 11:07:25 -0500

I remember back before technology I was driving a MG back from the airport and we went through the gate. The vehicle was properly marked and the MP manning the gate failed to salute. I looked at the MG and asked if he wanted me to stop and he said no they are human and humans make mistakes. From that day forward I had more respect for the MG.

Yes today's Soldiers need to get back to basic hell they do not even shine boots anymore but yet they cannot properly render the proper custom and courtesy which reminds me when I was in Korea back in 93 the gate guards had to salute every vehicle and sound off with "Warfighter" because they failed to perform their duties in a military manner.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 21 at 2015 12:21 PM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 21 Jan 2015 12:21:33 -0500

I have to believe that a sense of honor & history is necessary for the military. I know I'm not the only one that has seen the FB or Instagram pics of soldiers/airmen blatantly disregarding the uniform or mocking positions of honor (such as honor guard/funeral detail). Perhaps if the other branches took the sense of honor that the Marine Corps still instills, we would not have such behavior?

It used to be that youngsters who got in trouble were given a choice: jail or the military. Many of these chose the military & were suddenly brought into the realization that they can accomplish so much more with a little integrity & self-worth. Now-a-days it seems that the majority of new soldiers/airmen/sailor come in with that same disregard...it is all about them, not the service.

I have a buddy who was active Corps. He is now w/ the Air Guard & he is constantly telling me that he wishes he never left the Corps because there is no discipline, no military bearing. He was the only one that showed up to Commander's Call dressed for the occasion, the majority of his unit showing up in jeans & t-shirts. This is particularly disturbing because his unit works on the A-10s giving the ground troops the support they need - probably soon to be transitioning to the F35 (if it ever gets up to snuff, but that's another topic for another day).

It makes me reconsider trying to get back in. Will I be the only one wanting to instill tradition & honor? God I hope not...

Response by Sgt Jason Tanner made Feb 15 at 2015 9:12 AM

Sgt Jason Tanner — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 09:12:42 -0500

Sir, you are correct. Knowing the history and accomplishments our units and our Corps is one of the main building blocks that help to create the Marine esprit de corps. It also sets a standard to which all present and future Marines aspire to. By knowing the history and accomplishments of the Corps and your unit you are made to feel that you have a stake in continuing that history for future generations, it creates a since of pride in who you are and what you are a part of.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 15 at 2015 10:18 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 10:18:18 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member, I think you have just highlighted one of the easiest and most common problems plaguing our Army today. I am proud to wear the uniform and serve my country, and have an extensive knowledge of several areas of our military history, including the evolution of combat medicine (thanks to reenacting). These gave me a deep seated pride and appreciation for those in uniform and our veterans of all branches.

I think that the sense of tradition that the Marine Corps has helps to create that cohesive look. There isn't concern about the fact that the dress uniform "looks old", because it LOOKS traditional and is readily identifiable as a Marine Dress uniform. It bothered me when the Army went to the beret, because 1.) Berets were historically used to signify some sort of elite accomplishment, and 2.) Nobody was ever taught how to wear/care for the beret on accession to the military (at least nobody that I ran into). The result was not only a lack of uniformity, but a horribly un-military appearance. Blousing the pants was another airborne tradition from the WW2 era, which is where the "leg" came from (infantry were "straight leg", as they were not authorized to blouse their trousers).

Furthermore, nobody told me as a 2nd LT about the Silver Dollar Salute. I learned that by looking it up before I showed to drill, and was the only officer in my unit aware of the tradition. My MSG det NCO said he had never received a Silver Dollar, and immediately put it into his coin collection as his most prized coin (So he told me at least...lol). Until a year or two ago, nobody even mentored regarding career progression. People were all so busy focusing on their own advancements, rather than covering down.

That is one thing that I've always wanted to change, was improving the mentorship/family/team experience, and it would be nice to simultaneously incorporate some sense of history and pride in the uniforms.

On the Big Army side, I would hope that they stop changing the uniforms. Part of the reason that we look like security guards and bus drivers, is because the Army misconstrues the unit "rivalries" as bragging versus esprit de corps, and likewise, there are patches that command more attention/respect that others. Some, like the 101st Air Assault or the CAPOC/SOCOM patches are attention getting, more so than a WIARNG patch.

Letting people take pride, and understanding that very few in the military TRULY feel that because they deployed with the 101st Air Assault that they TRULY had a more challenging experience than someone that deployed with the Washington NG. And we all have a unique experience in the Army. I've never had someone say "I'm not going to listen to you. You're just an Army nurse.....*I* am an 11B." Maybe if I were giving advice on door kicking and patrols....but we all have experiences we have to offer.

Just my thoughts....although long winded.
v/r,
CPT Butler

Response by CPT Jack Durish made Feb 15 at 2015 11:05 PM

CPT Jack Durish — Sun, 15 Feb 2015 23:05:25 -0500

History. Who gives a damn?

I do.

Let me tell you why.

I grew up in the land of American battlefields - Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Civil War. We visited monuments and memorials as well as the National Archives, the Smithsonian, etc. On question that always plagued me was "how could they do it?" How could they march into battle shoulder to shoulder, watching their buddies fall around them, closing ranks when they did and continuing the march? How? In time I learned that they feared disappointing their comrades. Turning tail and running wasn't an option until others did.

I've listened to many heroes. I studied them. I investigated and reported on four actions in Vietnam that were acknowledged with awards of the Medal of Honor. One common theme bound them. Hatred of the enemy didn't matter in the heat of battle. Love of their buddies mattered. Love of their home and families got them there, but love of their buddies kept them there.

I spent a year at Infantry School, from E1 to O1. There was pressure every step of the way. Anyone who tried to make it on their own quickly fell by the wayside. Recruits, student infantryman, student officers, we all learned to help each other out. The bonds of brotherhood that we formed under that pressure were just as valuable - maybe more so - than all the lessons in weapons, tactic, communications, logistics, etc.

In a sense, connecting with our unit history also builds bonds of brotherhood. In a sense, we become part of a continuum that extends from those who came before to those who will come after, and that we don't want to let them down any more than we would let down those fighting at our side in the present.

If we neglect to imbue that sense of history in our service men and women, we are denying them a valuable asset.

That's why I tell stories. History is best taught in stories...

Response by Cpl Jeff N. made Feb 16 at 2015 9:53 AM

Cpl Jeff N. — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 09:53:35 -0500

CPT Private RallyPoint Member . I've read a number of your posts on Rally Point and you sound like a pretty squared away LT. Why you would let someone sit on their 6 and render a half assed salute to you is a mystery to me.

Small things add up to big things. There is a quote from Ben Franklin that illustrates this to the tee for me...

For the want of a nail; the shoe was lost; for the want of a shoe; the horse was lost; and for the want of a horse, the rider was lost, being overtaken and slain by the enemy, all for the want of care about a horseshoe nail.
- Benjamin Franklin

If we allow standards to slip and complacency to enter the end is never good. While it may seem like a small thing military history, customs and courtesies are essential to good order and discipline.

Candidly some NCO should have handed that soldier his arse for being so unprofessional but that doesn't mean you should not have taken the opportunity for a course correction either.

The difference, I think, is Marines have been schooled, the expectation is set and crystal clear and they know it will be policed, period.

Response by MSgt Michelle Mondia made Feb 16 at 2015 10:47 AM

MSgt Michelle Mondia — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 10:47:03 -0500

This is reflected in our country, our communities and families. We have no sense of tribe. We forget we belong to one another, who our ancestors are and are disconnected from our history. When you look at native Americans or any tribal society that's the cornerstone of who they are...where they came from. They know the history of their tribe all the way back to creation itself, they can trace their roots to the very first settelment. It's difficult to conquer or infiltrate a group so bound to to one another. The marines are a perfect example of this. They seriously take care of their own. I heard that durring off loading air evac patients there are spesific teams of marines there to take other wounded marines off the planes. No one else carries them. Tradition and harritage are all but forgotten in the other branches of the military. Great comment and good point. Its a microcosm of America as well, it's not so much the star bangeled awesomeness and plastering the flag on any thing that moves, it's about knowing our history the good and bad of it. This way if a young person wonders into a chat room with some extremists they don't go buy a plane ticket and enlist to fight their cause. All these topics we discuss on here...what should we do about torture, should we be religious, should we discipline for social media antics. None of this would come up if we were stronger troops and citizens. But no one tells us a common story. We have no elders to trust. True strength comes from knowing who you are and where you came from. It seems to me we serve a society who prefers to be told different truths. Sadly, It's why we are all seperate.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 16 at 2015 1:21 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 16 Feb 2015 13:21:38 -0500

So I am confused are you disappointed in the discipline of the Army?? or the lack of heritage? As to discipline, that is above my pay grade to do something about(yes I know I am a good role model but it's kinda hard 3 day a month). As to heritage that again is on the leadership. In my unit we make sure new soldiers know where the company, battalion, brigade and division have been.

Response by SSgt Terry P. made Aug 24 at 2015 8:14 AM

SSgt Terry P. — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 08:14:24 -0400

Marines are taught respect and leadership from the beginning---respect for the Corps- rank - their history. Leadership is an ongoing commodity in the Marines--a PFC leads privates and is respected for it.Protocol is a priority --a CPL and a SGT may be great friends on liberty(Joe and Jim)--back on duty the SGT is addressed as SGT.

Response by SSG Michael Hathaway made Aug 24 at 2015 9:40 AM

SSG Michael Hathaway — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 09:40:31 -0400

I realize this is an old topic, but I found it interesting especially considering my unit, 615th MP CO, completed our first annual day of Army Recreation honoring our history in Long Binh. I think history and tradition can speak a lot for a service member or unit.

Response by PO3 Steven Sherrill made Aug 24 at 2015 10:09 AM

PO3 Steven Sherrill — Mon, 24 Aug 2015 10:09:34 -0400

CPT Private RallyPoint Member there is so much rich and colorful history across all branches of the service. It is something that I have loved since I was young. Part of that was growing up on a WWII battlefield. Part of it was being subjected to the old AFRTS "service announcements" that took snips of military history and condensed it to a one minute filler piece. Part of it is just that in our short (globally speaking) existence this nation has had some awesome people do some awesome things in defense of this nation. It is absolutely something that should be instilled in every service member. It is something that should be maintained, and refreshed as needed. The new soldiers should understand that going to a unit means taking on the pride and history of that unit. If they don't, then our rich military history is going to fade from memory. That would be a tragedy.
In regard to the incident you had on post, I wonder what would have been the result had that soldier who half-assed military courtesy done the same thing to the base commander, or even a higher ranking officer. It may seem like a small thing, but even when it was an officer I had no respect for as a person, I respected the uniform. I was not in for that long, but it was a matter of principle. I hope you said something to him about his lack of effort?

Response by SFC Thomas Howes made Dec 21 at 2015 4:10 PM

SFC Thomas Howes — Mon, 21 Dec 2015 16:10:19 -0500

Sir you should have pulled over and talked to his NCO about how much of a soup sandwich his man looked like.

Response by 1stSgt Eugene Harless made Dec 22 at 2015 5:23 AM

1stSgt Eugene Harless — Tue, 22 Dec 2015 05:23:18 -0500

Marines are steeped in history from Day One. In recruit training they get 6 hours of formalized Classes on Marine Corps History in the first month they are there. The Corps is small as well, we only have 4 Divisions (1 reserve) They all have service dating backed to WW2. The Army Tends to renumber, rename and redesignate units a lot more. The 1st Marine Division, as Far as I know is the only US military division to have been in combat in every Major Conflict since 1941. Also as a rule Marines don't switch out subordinate units as much.

Response by MSgt Rena Schmidt made Apr 8 at 2016 3:53 PM

MSgt Rena Schmidt — Fri, 08 Apr 2016 15:53:38 -0400

I noticed a change in our Airmen not sure if it this generation or what. The airmen all walk with heads down shoulders slumped forward like they carry the weight of the world on their shoulders. No respect to officers and have seen junior airmen walk by an officer and not salute, hair to long, guys with hair out of reg. uniforms that don't match, flight suits not zipped up hats not on etc.

Response by Maj John Bell made May 6 at 2016 5:38 AM

Maj John Bell — Fri, 06 May 2016 05:38:34 -0400

I know this is an old post, but it just popped up for me. At Friday Morning quarters we used to read a gallantry citation that had been awarded to a member of the unit in its history, The Marine that held the billet now, would perform the reading. We also read one of the unit citations earned in combat, plus ALL the gallantry citations of everyone still a member of the unit. First Friday of the month if we were not deployed, we invited local veterans that had served in the battalion to dine with the Marines at morning meal. It meant something to most of the Marines.

Response by SGT Philip Roncari made May 24 at 2017 7:46 PM

SGT Philip Roncari — Wed, 24 May 2017 19:46:45 -0400

I was lucky since when I joined the Army back in 1965 I was assigned to the 4th Division that was at the time being reactivated at Fort Lewis Washington,from day one we were told of the Division's history in WWI and WWll,and all of our Battalions history as well,mine was the 3/8 Inf (Dragoons) this along with constant competition between units gave us I think a greater sense of belonging to a storied history of famed Military unit,one big thing for us in the initial reactivation was we went to Vietnam as a cohesive unit,not as replacements,that's a big help when you know exactly how the guy next to you will act in any situation,he's become as close as a family member you've known him since you got off that bus the first day of BCT.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 1 at 2017 10:37 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Jun 2017 10:37:51 -0400

I see no problem in teaching new recruits their unit's history. I am in the NG and my platoon has marked moments for Annual Trainings conducted going back over 15 years. Not many have been documented in the time I've been with the unit. However, I may need to give the idea a boost. There is much history to be learned in the conception, and ongoing history of each unit. But, from what I have seen, many soldiers don't much care for the units. The NG is seeming to become a way to get college money, and thought of as a "non-combat" way of joining. I had no such preconceived notions when I enlisted. As deployments come into the scope of the units, the lower enlisted seem to be a bit apprehensive about their choice to join.

I recently returned from a deployment and many also saw the Combat Patch as just an ear mark on their status. Many went to well secured locations, and others just made a trip to certain areas for the sake of getting that "status symbol". One soldier I have known for a few years wanted to go to a hostile area for that purpose alone. He never really took into account the danger he could have been thrown into. My first deployment was very eventful in attacks. I had accepted the fact that it was all a part of being where I was. Others, were not so accepting and had many issues both on duty and off.

Sorry for rambling. Back to the subject. A branch's/unit's history could be taught to recruits, and explanations SHOULD be given for why a soldier is able to wear certain decorations. But, much of the issue I have seen is that certain individuals are not in the military to be a part of something bigger than themselves. It's another bullet on a resume, way to get college money, or for reasons unknown to me.

Response by AA Whitney-Elizabeth Moates made Oct 24 at 2017 4:54 AM

AA Whitney-Elizabeth Moates — Tue, 24 Oct 2017 04:54:43 -0400

I was a member of the Flying Rifles Drill Team at NATTC Pensacola after the school was moved from Millington. Back then you were asked to be a member and there were these fantastic, idiotic, insane trials you went through and we're a part of. And these had been in place since the team was formed, there was this proud Heritage of being a part of something bigger than you and being the representatives when we performed at the Rose bowl, Mardi gras parades, Blue Angels, we made sure that we represented the Navy and our teams history of strict precise drilling. Unfortunately a few years back when the hurricane trashed quite a bit of the base, it also ruined most of our past. As of now, there is nothing left to pass down, the founder passed away a couple of years ago, and the few of us that offered to help with rebuilding the team by giving the new DM and RDM what we had so the memories and the history don't get lost.
I'm one of the members who have the original Drill books, team history, rifle care, etc. I offered to give over everything I had and to answer any questions, just like the rest of the others.
Unfortunately, the new DM had no interest in trying to rebuild. It's really sad to see something that taught ourselves to hold ourselves to a higher regard in everything we did, to get turned into an empty shell ego boost and lack of disregard for the past.
Honestly, look at the lack of care for our country's history and heritage. Abraham Lincoln said that we should not take away our past from the new generations because learning about our past no matter how terrible or how good, it's how we learn to be better than they were. If we don't care about what we served for, and show it- then why should they?

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jan 6 at 2018 3:08 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Sat, 06 Jan 2018 15:08:15 -0500

Army history is poorly taught, if taught at all. Some of the better units do it, but most do not.