Cadets vs. Cadets. It may be a little or well-known fact that time spent in the military academies counts towards retirement. Fair or not?

COL Lee Flemming — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 05:16:08 -0400

In other words 26 years of service is actually 30 for an Academy Grad. Now this is an awesome deal if you went to an academy!

VMI, Citadel, Texas A&M = ROTC

This also includes the Coast Guard Academy whose tag I did not include.

https://www.opm.gov/retirement-services/publications-forms/csrsfers-handbook/c022.pdf

c022.pdf

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Response by SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth made Aug 24 at 2016 6:17 AM

SGT David A. 'Cowboy' Groth — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 06:17:25 -0400

Why not count, they're going through training other do in basic, only different.

Response by 1SG Mike Case made Aug 24 at 2016 6:31 AM

1SG Mike Case — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 06:31:25 -0400

I agree with SGT Groth that Basic and AIT count towards retirement, so why not Service Academy time. I don't think I could handle 4 years of a training environment.

Response by Maj Marty Hogan made Aug 24 at 2016 6:47 AM

Maj Marty Hogan — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 06:47:51 -0400

Fair.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Aug 24 at 2016 7:13 AM

SFC Joseph Weber — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:13:34 -0400

Seems fair to me. It's likes a long ass basic training.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 7:26 AM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:26:36 -0400

I've been through basic training, OTS, and three tech school training scenarios. Put them all together and I seriously doubt it equals or exceeds one "hell week" at any of the academies.

Of course they should be counted as service. They are on duty more than any other trainee.

Response by CPT Tom Monahan made Aug 24 at 2016 7:29 AM

CPT Tom Monahan — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:29:12 -0400

The unfair part is ROTC Cadets (other than SMP) don't get reserve time in service credit from the time they are sworn in under contract and or scholarship.

Response by Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen made Aug 24 at 2016 7:56 AM

Lt Col John (Jack) Christensen — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 07:56:29 -0400

Seems fair to me. Only inequality I see, as someone has already mentioned, is that ROTC cadets don't get credit. Even that statement is/was only partially true. Don't know if the program still exists, but when I was in college the Navy had a program where ROTC aviation cadets could do "basic" type training as active duty cadets at Pensacola NAS between sophomore and junior year of college, then again between junior and senior year. If you went on to be commissioned in the Navy you were an Ensign with two years time in grade for pay purposes. I almost did that, but was making too much working for Pratt and Whitney Aircraft during the summer. That summer money was too important for me to give up.

Response by COL Lee Flemming made Aug 24 at 2016 8:30 AM

COL Lee Flemming — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:30:02 -0400

What about the Citadel and VMI which are notoriously hard, are also total control schools, but are ROTC programs?

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 8:49 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 08:49:51 -0400

I suppose it makes sense, Academy guys are subject to the UCMJ and can be dismissed from service for a crime. A ROTC cadet worst case is being dis-enrolled from the program.

There are some ROTC programs where the student is on active duty. Usually it is offered to prior-enlisted going for high demand degrees like comp sci or engineering. We had a few in my det who were ROTC cadets but where full AD E-5's with benefits.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Aug 24 at 2016 9:30 AM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:30:24 -0400

They receive pay, it should count towards retirement.

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 9:40 AM

SCPO Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:40:33 -0400

I think it's perfectly acceptable. Their paychecks are of no major concern to me. Their individual and collective contributions to our nation's defense and security are.

Response by 2LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 9:40 AM

2LT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 09:40:52 -0400

FALSE sir. I wish, BUT it does NOT. The only way the 4 years count is if you retire from the army and buy in those years with federal service as a civilian. Let me tell you how my career is going to go. 2015 grad of USMA, 2019 grad of USUHS at age 26. 5 year residency complete at 31. 3 year fellowship. At this point I owe 11 years, bringing me to 45. 1 more year until I can retire at 20 years. Then ONLY the 4 years at USUHS get added on for retirement of 24 years at 20 years. If I did not go to USUHS, then my 20 would just be 20.

Response by LTC Robert McKenna made Aug 24 at 2016 10:01 AM

LTC Robert McKenna — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:01:40 -0400

Its amazing that this story still comes around.

Time at the academies hasn't counted towards military retirement (unless you are prior enlisted and don't graduate) for over 100 years. It can count towards US government civilian retirement, but the individual has to "buy back" the years by contributing into the retirement pool.

Is it fair that academy folks get treated one way and ROTC another? IMHO the better comparison is to ask how reserve service is adjusted into USG civilians retirement at all?

Response by SGT Morrison (Mike) Hogwood made Aug 24 at 2016 10:19 AM

SGT Morrison (Mike) Hogwood — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:19:35 -0400

medical and dental officers receive 4 years also for their medical school,i did not know they did this for the service academies ,they are essentially in the military while going to school,i would say it is fair

Response by MSgt John Taylor made Aug 24 at 2016 10:42 AM

MSgt John Taylor — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 10:42:19 -0400

If they were bound by the UCMJ while at an academy, then sure it seems fair. Time in service isn't deducted when attending staff college, masters programs, fellowships etc.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2016 11:34 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:34:45 -0400

This is absolutely fair. I also believe they could be commissioned as an 02 and the valedictorian should be commissioned as an 03. The stuff they have to go through, the military training and the serious sacrifices they have to go through warrant this.

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Aug 24 at 2016 11:47 AM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:47:23 -0400

I'm pretty sure Cadets incur a service commitment should they quit or flunk out after their first year. I'll do some research and update.

Response by CPO Larry Cox made Aug 24 at 2016 12:14 PM

CPO Larry Cox — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:14:20 -0400

Garbage! The academies are outstanding institutions because of the structure, not the level of education provided. There time at academy should be counted as reserve time, not active duty time.

Response by PO1 Robert Johnson made Aug 24 at 2016 12:14 PM

PO1 Robert Johnson — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:14:35 -0400

I would not dispute their TIS. They are in uniform 24/7, subject to the UCMJ and in the past, have been called to active duty in times of crisis. Enlisted personnel are credited for their training time, Basic, Advanced and Specialist training so cadets should have the same.

Response by SN Greg Wright made Aug 24 at 2016 12:39 PM

SN Greg Wright — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:39:05 -0400

COL Lee Flemming Colonel, you also didn't tag the 5th service academy, the US Merchant Marine Academy, who's graduates are required to commission into the reserves, if they don't go AD.

https://www.usmma.edu/

U.S. Merchant Marine Academy

"To educate and graduate licensed merchant mariners and leaders of exemplary character who will serve America's marine transportation and defense needs in peace and war."

Response by SrA Edward Vong made Aug 24 at 2016 12:55 PM

SrA Edward Vong — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 12:55:32 -0400

I call it fair, it's time spent training to serve, similar to basic training.

Response by Capt Michael Greene made Aug 24 at 2016 3:36 PM

Capt Michael Greene — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 15:36:44 -0400

COL Lee Flemming It's fair because of the intensity of the 24/7/365 academy environment. It's legal because they are, in fact, full-time employees (I'm pretty sure.)

But are the academies good for America anymore? The selection process, while rigorous, is mainly political and favors white men from wealthy families. I taught classes of academy grads and also classes of ROTC grads: the ROTC 2LTs were fully 10 points smarter.

A hundred years ago, there was no other way of ensuring we had a source of officers who were highly trained in the military sciences.

Response by CPO Ronnie Townes made Aug 24 at 2016 3:37 PM

CPO Ronnie Townes — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 15:37:28 -0400

Even when Coast Guard officers complete the CGA they get the chance to complete their Masters at certain Universities, depending on their career path, collecting active duty pay and in civilian attire. Not sure if that's across the board for all the branches.

Response by SGT Christopher Clarke made Aug 24 at 2016 7:50 PM

SGT Christopher Clarke — Wed, 24 Aug 2016 19:50:52 -0400

I believe that if you have the ambition and ability to attend an Academy, then it should indeed count towards your retirement. Godspeed to those that get an opportunity to attend one of the Military Academies. HOOAH

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2016 9:20 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Aug 2016 21:20:44 -0400

My son just graduated from the AFA, Colo Springs and it is my understanding that his time at the academy is not considered TIG towards retirement.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 28 at 2016 9:37 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Aug 2016 21:37:18 -0400

As I posted, my son just graduated from the AFA - this was top shelf education - he has no prob with his retirement TIG starting after graduation.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 28 at 2016 11:19 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 28 Aug 2016 23:19:43 -0400

COL Lee Flemming The myriad of answers reminds me of having asked a Guard recruiter about retirement benefits for Guardsmen!

Response by Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 6 at 2016 8:28 PM

Cadet PVT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 06 Sep 2016 20:28:56 -0400

west point bound so hooah

Response by SFC George Smith made Oct 29 at 2016 8:44 PM

SFC George Smith — Sat, 29 Oct 2016 20:44:30 -0400

Did Not know that One...

Response by SP5 Norman McGill made Aug 1 at 2017 1:59 PM

SP5 Norman McGill — Tue, 01 Aug 2017 13:59:02 -0400

I went to a private military school (Manlius) for 3 years and that experience put me way ahead of other men when I got to boot camp. I don't think my training at a private school should go towards time in the service but the guys who attend the major, official military schools like West Point,Annapolis and the Air Force Academy and the Coast Gurad Aademy and any other official military type school should have their time there counted. I've been to West Point as a visitor and I want to tell you those cadets earn every minute of their time there and their education is top of the line which we need in the service even if they are all shave tails. After graduation just give those boys to the Sargent's and we'll make the rest of the soldier. I see no problem.

Response by Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth made Aug 1 at 2017 3:23 PM

Lt Col Scott Shuttleworth — Tue, 01 Aug 2017 15:23:40 -0400

I think it is totally fair because when they are at the academy they are in a military environment plus they are receiving E-4 pay if I am not mistaken. One clarification though...the 4 years counts towards pay at retirement not service computation time. Once commissioned, their service time is just like everyone else. I.E., you retire at 20 years for service your pay is calculated for 24 years of pay...kind of like serving in the reserves then going on active duty. The first day you draw pay for service, like the academies is where your computation for pay starts. You can'r serve 16 years and retire at 20...now that would be ludacris.

Response by LTC Robert McKenna made Aug 10 at 2017 4:41 PM

LTC Robert McKenna — Thu, 10 Aug 2017 16:41:03 -0400

It only counts as time if you become a USG civilian employee and "buy back" your time. It doesn't and hasn't counted for military TIS or retirement since 1914.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 14 at 2017 5:35 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 17:35:12 -0400

Not necessarily related to retirement, but there is definitely a difference in treatment of cadets coming from federal service academies versus senior military colleges with regard to 'privilege'. It can be argued that SMC cadets go through the same rigors as academy students, with several of the same opportunities (ABN, AASLT, CTLT, etc.) and CULP, but SMC cadets will not rate the same time in service or the National Defense Service Ribbon until after completion of BOLC. The only difference between the two is selection. Is it fair that just because somebody didn't make the cut to get educated on the federal budget that they didn't earn their time, despite doing much of the same training? Not saying all ROTC should get time in, but it would be nice for SMCs to be included in this policy.

Response by LtCol George Carlson made Aug 14 at 2017 11:05 PM

LtCol George Carlson — Mon, 14 Aug 2017 23:05:35 -0400

This discussion gets wrapped around several axles. Essentially "time for what" axles. As best I know, Academy time only counts for federal service retirement when "bought back (i.e. individual contributes what would have been paid into the system). Unless things have changed, it does not count for military retirement time. Some portions of ROTC time (seems to vary by service) may count toward active duty time, but at least in some services it is only if in "dual" role as cadet and reserve component. That's what applied to me as a Marine PLC. My two summer stints counted toward retirement since I was enlisted reserve. Similarly, dual status can count as time in service for pay. My 3.7 years as a PLC got me commissioned as a 2ndLt Over 3 for pay. Finally, there is what I have always heard called "constructive service" for doctors, dentists, lawyers, and chaplains that gives them a place in the lineal list as if they had an O-1 commission prior to their graduate school. Funny story connected to that. Back in 1970 I was in RVN when the USMC decided that lawyers should only get constructive service if they agreed to an additional year's obligation. The HQMC folks reasoned that most all would accept the additional year to be Captains. Well, wrong answer, elephant breath. Six 1st Marine Aircraft Wing lawyers, showed up as 2nd Lts. After a couple of months, HQMC realized that all it was doing was putting a bunch of lawyers out as 2ndLt. So, in typical fashion, they rescinded the decision with back pay. Six new Captains walked into the 1stMAW HQ O Club and threw a month's back pay each on the bar. At RVN prices that "party" lasted for over a week!