Can a 1SG force a SM to shave their mustache if the facial hair is within regulation?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:52:53 -0400

Ive been working on my deployment stache for the past 4 months and finaly got it to where it looks nice. This morning 1sg told me that he doesn't like moustaches and i need yo shave it off. We go back to the states in 3 days and I'm plannin on keeping it. As long as its in regs, shouldnt I be allowed to keep it.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 20 at 2018 8:26 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:26:27 -0400

My only caution is the interpretation of the regulation. Unless you have someone senior to the 1SG in your COC that concurs with you then you are playing with Fire. If you are that confident that you are within the regulation and it is worth it to you, then, that is your choice. I will say that through many deployments and long term training exercises SM often grow that facial hair and find that it is out of tolerance. I guess my triple comment is a triple caution. Thank you for your service. PS, one of you has many years of service as a leader and the other does not.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2018 8:59 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:59:06 -0400

Yes, AR 670-1 does allow moustaches. But also generally speaking, a superior's order is presumed to be lawful and disobeyed at the subordinate's peril. I don't know if it would be worth the fight really. Would you be willing to go all the way to a court-martial for failure to obey a lawful order and/or risk a promising career to prove your point? Sometimes it's just easier to say "Roger" and drive on.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2018 9:37 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:37:17 -0400

You need to respectfully ask those in your chain of command about this. When an E4 goes up against an E8 (who is backed by an O3), the E4 will lose every time. However, if you have a platoon leader who can talk frankly with the E8 and O3 you stand a much better chance of success.

I see nothing in the regs that says someone can force you to shave a mustache if it's within regs. The closest thing I could find is paragraph 2-6d of AR 670-1 which says "The commander in charge of units on maneuver may prescribe the uniform for wear within the maneuver area." Does a mustache apply to this? I don't know. Especially since paragraph 2-6g says "Commanders will ensure that the Soldiers assigned to their unit are aware of the grooming and appearance provisions of this regulation."

But at the end of the day this is not a hill you want to die on. I know you said you're done with the Army and they can do whatever they want but, this is an option you might want to keep open. I got out of the Marines with no intention of ever getting back in the service. Then 9/11 happened and I wanted back in. Then I got out of the Army with no intention of getting back in. Then I missed it and here I am. My point is this, just because you're tired of it now doesn't mean that later on down the road you'll still feel that way. Don't cause any trouble and don't leave the service with a blot on your record and if you ever need to fall back on this career, you'll be able to.

Response by SPC Henry Francis made Jul 20 at 2018 10:39 AM

SPC Henry Francis — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 10:39:18 -0400

“Need to shave it off” isn’t exactly how an order would be worded. Perhaps you can ask the 1sg if you can talk to him privately. If he allows that you can politely explain the short time left and you desire to keep it AND your willingness to shave it if he intended it as an order.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Jul 20 at 2018 12:10 PM

SGM Bill Frazer — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:10:49 -0400

1. You better damn well make sure its reg, maybe be asking other 1SG's or the CSM. If you fight on this you better be prepared to pay the piper. Is the stache more important than the oncoming crapstorm? I had to shave mine 1 time in the service- but 2 of us ticked off both the 1Sg and the CSM- it was easy to shave it off and let it grow back when they cooled down.

Response by SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott made Jul 20 at 2018 12:34 PM

SPC Patricia K. (Williams) Elliott — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:34:05 -0400

I really don't think this is a battle you want to fight. After all it's just a mustache and it will grow back. Alienating your 1SG is not wise! Speaking from experience here about the alienating, not the mustache! Good Luck!

Response by CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2018 3:48 PM

CPT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:48:41 -0400

The short answer, no. The CSM answer, absolutely. Is a mustache worth the ass pain of being a marked man? Short answer, no.

Response by SGT David Wyatt made Jul 20 at 2018 8:22 PM

SGT David Wyatt — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:22:21 -0400

if you are willing to take shit details then keep it

Response by LtCol Mike Schaefer made Jul 20 at 2018 9:07 PM

LtCol Mike Schaefer — Fri, 20 Jul 2018 21:07:39 -0400

There's regulations and then there is common sense. The two may not match. As a young Private, I quickly understood that the 1stSgt could "bend" the regulations to meet his interpretation. I learned that if I followed the 1stSgt or Platoon Sergeant's advice my life was much easier. No he can't "force" someone to shave, but he can make your life more difficult. Shave. It grows back when you get out!!

Response by SPC Greg Barnett made Jul 21 at 2018 3:14 AM

SPC Greg Barnett — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 03:14:03 -0400

I hated every minute of my life in the army. But got out with a honorable discharge I did not want to go to the board I did not want the reenlistment bonus. I just wanted out so I finished my deployment and got out and let the little things go because it's a short time and you will be done and that's what I realized just let the little things go and get out life is much happier as a civilian

Response by SGT Christopher Hayden made Jul 21 at 2018 5:51 AM

SGT Christopher Hayden — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 05:51:27 -0400

Army regulation mustaches always make you look bad, no matter what. I'd follow the 1SG on this one, because he's just trying to help you not look like a goofball.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 9:09 AM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:09:47 -0400

If it’s in reg’s tell him pound sand

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 9:40 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:40:17 -0400

According AR 670-1, "Males will keep their face clean-shaven when in uniform, or in civilian clothes on duty. Mustaches
are permitted. If worn, males will keep mustaches neatly trimmed, tapered, and tidy. Mustaches will not present a
chopped off or bushy appearance, and no portion of the mustache will cover the upper lip line, extend sideways beyond a
vertical line drawn upward from the corners of the mouth (see lines C and D of fig 3–1), or extend above a parallel line
at the lowest portion of the nose (see line B of fig 3–1)." With this being said, it's up to the command to decide if your mustache appears to be within regulation.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 3:06 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 15:06:45 -0400

The regulation is pretty clear, if your moustache meets that standard then keep it. I would seek out a Senior NCO maybe the CSM at Bn or BDE and ask them if it meets the standard. Don't mention the 1SG when you do and see what advice you receive. Once you know it is good then do what you feel is best. Regulations are just that a regulation not a guideline for 1SGs to massage to their liking.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2018 10:14 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Jul 2018 22:14:03 -0400

Technically, a 1SG can't "force you" to do anything. But they can make you wish you had.
You don't make it that far in the Army without learning a trick or two about getting people to do things they don't want to do.

Response by SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez made Jul 23 at 2018 3:06 PM

SSG Jose M. Hernandezsanchez — Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:06:30 -0400

SPC McDonald,
Ok, regs are regs. I get that. But why do you want to go toe to toe of all people, your 1SG, why? One thing I learned in the military, especially in combat, is not to question certain things. This should be a, "roger that 1SG" and be done.
The way I see it is that if you're creating a conflict between you and a superior. Are you going question anything when the bullets are flying by your head? I assume not.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 5 at 2018 12:43 PM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 05 Aug 2018 12:43:57 -0400

If your with in regulation, then you can maintain it. Just note that he will be paying attention to when you fall out of regulation then he will have you. Ensure you pay attention to the words and punctuation within the regulation, they make a difference in how the regulation is interpreted.

Response by MSG Lonnie Averkamp made Jan 5 at 2019 10:48 PM

MSG Lonnie Averkamp — Sat, 05 Jan 2019 22:48:09 -0500

I would say to make CERTAIN that your mustache is well within regs, take a picture of yourself with a time-stamped photo, shave it, and request to go the I.G. for their opinion in the matter. I know that you would lose your 'stache, but I expect that your 1SG may get a bit of counseling on abuse of rank.

Response by SFC Daniel Hardin made May 30 at 2019 7:57 AM

SFC Daniel Hardin — Thu, 30 May 2019 07:57:24 -0400

As has been pointed out the 1SG cannot technically order you to do anything. He doesn't actually appear in your Chain of Command but he works for the person who arguably matters the most in it. Your Company-level Commander. This Commander has the authority to modify the uniform as they see fit. However it must be applied uniformly and it must be that Commander's policy. If you didn't hear it from his lips or see it in writing with his signature, then you have the right to question it (within reason).

Your next step should be engaging your NCO support channel. Your PSG and LT are the ones who should take up this fight. If they won't, utilize your Commander's open door policy and ask him if it is his policy. If he says yes, you shave, simple as that.

If I had to wager, I'd bet on your Commander supporting your 1SG's position. However, every once in awhile, common sense wins...

Response by SGT Charles Belford made Jul 22 at 2019 8:57 AM

SGT Charles Belford — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 08:57:41 -0400

I’ve had 1SGs tell me to shave my mustache even though it was in regs. I never once shaved my mustache because someone told me to. However, if your hair is out of regs and looks like garbage, you better shave your nasty face.

Response by PO2 Loren Gilmore made Nov 8 at 2019 7:41 PM

PO2 Loren Gilmore — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 19:41:02 -0500

I read all this information on these rules and regulations and I have to wonder how do you do your daily job with all the rules and regulations you have to either know about or learn in the Army? During my time in the Navy we had to put in a request to grow a beard and you pretty much knew what you could get away with and followed them. The only time I ever got gigged on an inspection was for an Irish Pennant on my jumper by this LCDR who was way over the weight standards and had egg yoke on his shirt from breakfast (I hope) that morning. Seems you Army guys had so much crap to watch out for. Doc Gilly

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 31 at 2020 2:31 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 31 Jul 2020 14:31:25 -0400

Truthfully if the want it gone just let it go you ets soon and you can grow you're ver beard witch is way better than a mustache.

Response by SSG Danny Anderson made Jan 30 at 2021 6:54 PM

SSG Danny Anderson — Sat, 30 Jan 2021 18:54:16 -0500

I been in that situation several times. I call that "isms." What mean by this is you have people tend to make up their own rules when they don't like or agree with a policy or regulation. You have a lot of people in the Army nowadays hate mustaches. In the officer and combat arms community, they frown upon anybody wears one. I had 2 1SGs at Ft Campbell that tried to tell me to shave mine off and threatened me with an Article 15 if I didn't. I had people tell me to shave it off because of a promotion board or DA photo. I also had a Soldier in another company tell me his 1SG make him shave his mustache because he didn't like them. I just shut down that nonsense
with the AR 670-1 and ask them where does it state in the AR that I can't wear a mustache at my permanent duty station. I've been the military years and the last time I shaved off my mustache was basic training. Once I got in AIT, I was able have one as long as I kept it within regs. The leadership is quick to apply AR's when you're in violation and it's convenient for them but will look past what is authorized. That's why I always tell my Soldiers to always read and know those Army Regs verbatim because they will protect you when your leadership tries to challenge you. As long as the mustache is within regs and you're not in basic training, OCS, WOCS, and airborne school status, the 1SG, CSM or anyone in your leadership cannot make you shave it off. Don't get me wrong, the leadership can order you to shave it if you have been counseled several times on paper about it being out of regs.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 1 at 2021 7:52 PM

SFC Melvin Brandenburg — Mon, 01 Feb 2021 19:52:18 -0500

I wouldn't cross Top

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 1 at 2021 9:02 PM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 01 Feb 2021 21:02:29 -0500

Shaving is the path of least resistance.

Response by SSG Dennis R. made Feb 2 at 2021 9:48 AM

SSG Dennis R. — Tue, 02 Feb 2021 09:48:06 -0500

The length of my hair & mustache was a constant focus of attention.