Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 70 in each PT event?

2016-03-19T18:06:39-04:00

I'm sure they can deny an extra school like air assault but I feel like as long as you meet the army standard of 60 in each event he can't deny a leadership school and halt your career

Response by SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 6:07 PM

2016-03-19T18:07:48-04:00

My orders are already cut to BLC in July but I'm transferring units in May and the new CSM is tying to require me to get a 70 in each event I have a shoulder injury that I refuse to get a profile for so I struggle to get my push-ups higher

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 6:49 PM

2016-03-19T18:49:53-04:00

Technically no. Most PME just require you to pass the APFT and HT/WT. Airborne school is one of the only schools that I know that requires you to pass the APFT on the 17-21 year old scale regardless of your current age and even then it's still only at 60%. I woukd use the open door policy with the CSM to discuss this further, but keep your 1SG involved.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-03-19T19:12:46-04:00

Techinally no they can't any pt test within 30 days of your school date is a diagnostic

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 7:15 PM

2016-03-19T19:15:15-04:00

I belive this might be because at the school house you have a better chance of failing and if you failed then the unit wasted money and your career could be over.

Response by 1LT A. Uribe made Mar 19 at 2016 7:39 PM

2016-03-19T19:39:09-04:00

Another reason is that some schools are in different states and the body reacts differently to altitude and local weather.

Response by CPT Mark Gonzalez made Mar 19 at 2016 8:23 PM

2016-03-19T20:23:55-04:00

The short answer is yes they absolutely can and all these people giving advice are not your leadership. Request an open door and keep training. Maybe propose to take another diagnostic with the 1SG or CSM there to observe so they would be more confident in your performance.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made Mar 19 at 2016 8:43 PM

2016-03-19T20:43:47-04:00

I had a 1SG who already asked his CSM to let him go to 1SGs course and was denied. I did not know what transpired, but I do know this. He went to the course and failed the APFT and was sent packing. It was not pretty.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 10:15 PM

2016-03-19T22:15:35-04:00

Yes your CSM can. He doesn't deny the orders, he'll refuse to write your letter of release from the BN/BDE and then that is where he'll tell you why you can't go.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 19 at 2016 10:34 PM

2016-03-19T22:34:29-04:00

Technically, no. But what may happen is if somebody with a low PT score goes to NCOES and fails the APFT the CSM will be on the carpet explaining why he or she sent somebody who couldn't pass. Me? I don't worry about it. If you get a 60 in each event I'm sending you and you can end your career if you fail when you get there.

Response by CPL Randy Bautista made Mar 19 at 2016 10:45 PM

2016-03-19T22:45:08-04:00

Short answer no... Long answer yes... CSM Can impose requirement to bless of on your orders... With that said the open door policy is always open. I don't see it going to well but it's Keats available. Within each unit all files that go above BN level has to be approved/ reviewed by BN leadership. Meaning BCM and CSM and if they reside not to approve its not going anywhere

Response by SSG James Elmore made Mar 19 at 2016 11:10 PM

2016-03-19T23:10:41-04:00

The funny part to me is that this is still happening. Whenever the CSM of the army put out a press release for leadership to not deny anyone advancement (no matter if it's promotions, schools or assignment) just because they're not a PT stud.

Response by SGT Anthony Rossi made Mar 19 at 2016 11:15 PM

2016-03-19T23:15:40-04:00

Any NCO worth his stripes wants to see his soldiers excell. I would go see him and see what he might recommend to help me fix any problems that might be holding me back. Then I would take his advice and show him I respect his leadership. It won't be long and you will find yourself advancing.

Response by SSG Jesse Cheadle made Mar 19 at 2016 11:17 PM

2016-03-19T23:17:39-04:00

There lies the difference between Active Duty and ARNG. You are a PT failure below 70 in any given event. Yes, SM's have been delayed to professional development schools for not meeting the bare mininum 210 or a standard 240+ for consideration. If I were CSM I would not give up a slot to someone who just meets the standards. There is no room in this Army anymore for those SM's. Read SMA Daileys 2016 priorities.

Response by SFC Rob Frisk made Mar 20 at 2016 10:41 AM

2016-03-20T10:41:02-04:00

As a leader, do you accept minimal efforts from your subordinates? If you do, you are not a leader as you are not developing your troops- on that same basis, why would you expect your SGM to allow you to go to schools when you perform to minimal levels.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2016 12:31 PM

2016-03-20T12:31:39-04:00

This is a classic two sided question. There is a view that if a CSM/SGM denies a soldier a school that meets APFT standards then the CSM/SGM is wrong. Soldier met the standard send to school. but that is not taking into consideration the senior NCO's experience and decision making ability. Does CSM have the authority to deny orders? No, but he/she has the ability to influence the commander to do so. That being said, there are also instances where a CSM/SGM is abusing their influence and if that is the case you should use the open door policy and talk to them. If that does not yield the results you are after then make a decision either to continue up the chain, or to conform to the requirement.

As far as the shoulder is concerned, you need to get that documented. that may mean a profile for a time, but you need it in writing in your med records. Toughing it out and driving on only leads to more severe injuries later. Just my two cents.-Chief

Response by SFC Walter Williams, Jr. made Mar 20 at 2016 2:33 PM

2016-03-20T14:33:21-04:00

No they cannot do it. But I can see why they would not want to send the NCO to school and he/she are weak in certain events. As some of the responses mentioned above, grading on the APFT tends to be alot harder at the NCO school than at the NCO's unit. Why would you set yourself up for failure by going to NCO school if you are struggling on the APFT? The command looks bad if you fail the APFT; and you could end your career as well. Is it worth risking? If you think about it, the CSM may be doing you a favor by denying you to go to school until you can pass the APFT comfortably.

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 20 at 2016 3:38 PM

2016-03-20T15:38:43-04:00

It depends. I know that in my counselling statement it had that per ar if a Soldier fails any school, they must wait one year, and if the failure was due to apft failure they must achieve a 70 in each event before they can be considered again. I am unsure of the reg, however I'll Google it.

Response by SGT Jeffrey Harris made Mar 20 at 2016 9:30 PM

2016-03-20T21:30:38-04:00

Just mho, but maybe your command staff doesn't want to promote people interested in doing the bare minimum. If advancing your career is your goal, then something as simple as an APFT should be something that you are striving to max each event in. The Army needs leaders, and you can't lead from the rear. Again, just my humble opinion. Good luck

Response by Capt Mark Strobl made Mar 21 at 2016 11:32 AM

2016-03-21T11:32:48-04:00

SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member - If a CSM is reviewing several candidates, they may have to get into the weeds in order to create separation. To this, "standard" does NOT equal "expectation" --especially if the command is going to pay to send someone to school.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 4:18 PM

2016-03-21T16:18:54-04:00

I've seen this in the last year in Alabama. The explanation we were given was that there was such a high rate of people sent home for PT failures. They figure that if you can score a 210 on your PT test 30 days out then you should be good to go when you get to the school.

It's a funding issue more than anything. They spend the limited resources to send someone only to have the individual come home early because of PT and that was wasted money and a wasted slot.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 5:48 PM

2016-03-21T17:48:29-04:00

If the CSM has a SOP stating that then yes he can. I don't want this to come out the wrong way but good luck challenging it. You probably should not go to NCOES unless you get 70% because if you fail the pt test (if you have a hard grader) then you will be flagged to go to school for 6 months. The last thing you want is a needs improvement on your NCOER with the comment failed NCOES do to failing a PT test.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 5:49 PM

2016-03-21T17:49:54-04:00

im gonna say yes because somebody who only does the marginal, may fail and it will reflect on the unit and its leaders if that person fails at school, so if you want it prove it, go for the gold not the bronze

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 21 at 2016 9:20 PM

2016-03-21T21:20:42-04:00

Yes...he has to sign off on your pre-execution checklist. If he feels you will fail, he won't send you.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 7:06 AM

2016-03-22T07:06:27-04:00

By requiring soldiers to have at least a 70 a little cushion is built in and it means you should hopefully be able to get at least 60 points once you get to the school. I don't have a problem with this being the standard for National Guard soldiers, especially since there are limited slots. That said, if a school doesn't require an APFT then a unit should not be requiring a soldier to pass one prior to attending.

Response by SPC Alan Bitters Jr made Mar 22 at 2016 7:14 AM

2016-03-22T07:14:56-04:00

I am just going to say this, CSM can deny you because a leader is suppose to be an example and not just barely pass.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 7:34 AM

2016-03-22T07:34:23-04:00

I've seen that add a regular policy. Their reasoning is that if you can pass at 70 with your unit before leaving, then you can pass at 60 at the NCOES course where may grade you harder. The course has already been paid for, so this also gives them a chance to fill your seat with someone else if they feel you won't pass. It's actually a common policy.

Response by SSG Terry Back (Martin-Back) made Mar 22 at 2016 7:42 AM

2016-03-22T07:42:44-04:00

Meeting minimum standards is not the sign of an effective leader? Exceeding standards, in any profession, is the sign of a good leadership. Do you want your home built to minimum standards or one that exceeds current building standards? Your soldiers or employees reflect you; are you happy with yourself by just meeting minimum standards? Let's run an advertisement for our business and boast "We meet Minimum Standards"; how long will you remain in business?

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made Mar 22 at 2016 7:58 AM

2016-03-22T07:58:40-04:00

I think as a 1SG minimum is just that it met the standard. If the NCO goes and fails. he or she ends their own career. I would counsel any NCO going to a professional school on such an event. I feel an NCO should never be hitting the minimum unless he or she is just coming back off of an illness or injury. Minimum score should be the minimum for 18 year old male that you must lead. When combat confronts you it is not easier for you if you are old , female or on profile.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:03 AM

2016-03-22T08:03:41-04:00

I would hate to send a soldier that had a60 in an event. But I would. And they would understand that if they fail and we lose a school slot because of it, the world as they know it will be forever changed. I am a firm believer that we have standards for a reason. Passing is passing.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:06 AM

2016-03-22T08:06:47-04:00

My first and foremost thought was, yes. He can. He looks out to ensure that Soldier will be succesfful. My issue though: Why do I want a leader barely meeting the standard? Different circumstances, sure. My stud pt-er, I already know that person. So injuries or recoveries, without a doubt. But CSMs need you to lead from the front, not when I catch up to you. Just food for thought IMO.

Response by SFC Nyla Newville made Mar 22 at 2016 8:11 AM

2016-03-22T08:11:53-04:00

Many units believe if you get more than the minimum shows more leadership ability, or at least a pride in doing more, strong work ethic etc.. and yes I have known many CSM's who have denied Soldiers to go to leadership school because they don't try hard enough. In today's Army there isn't room for Soldiers just to meet the minimum, with all the cut backs I worked hard to stay in the Army because in the 90's there was a large number of reductions in Soldiers and many units disbanded, you had to find a home for your self and prove yourself to stay in.

Response by SSG Lon Watson made Mar 22 at 2016 8:24 AM

2016-03-22T08:24:04-04:00

I think they can and should.
1. If they are borderline they might get a really strict grader and fail once they get there.
2. An NCO with a minimum test is a borderline performer anyway. Why are we promoting and sending NCOES to school who do just enough to get by.?

Response by CSM James Winslow made Mar 22 at 2016 8:31 AM

2016-03-22T08:31:05-04:00

All Army Schools have published standards as prerequisites for attendance. Requiring a Soldier to achieve a 70 point in each event passing score for attendance is incorrect (according to all regulatory guidance), but applied as a measure to assure a Soldier is capable of achieving more than the minimums, and is a common practice for the chain of command. As a former CSM and a current Inspector General that is how it is. BUT..... If you go into any Army leadership school with the idea that you can do just the minimums and pass I can almost guarantee that you will fail the first PT test- and be eliminated from the opportunity to be one of the top three graduates in the class. The command is, "you have two minutes to do as many repetitions as you can", NOT, "do enough to achieve 60%". You will lose 5-10 reps just because you are not paying attention to form when you start your test. You want to be an NCO? Lose the mentality of doing "just enough to get by". The Army needs leaders, not paycheck collectors. We have enough of the latter, and not enough of the former. Get with the program, Sergeant.

Response by SSG John McGrory made Mar 22 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-03-22T08:35:47-04:00

It's hard to get ahead in the new Army. No schools, no moving up. Go to the IG. Or start pumping iron.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:35 AM

2016-03-22T08:35:56-04:00

Yes the CSM can deny an NCOES course for a boarder line Soldier. Many of the NCOES courses are led by "alpha dog" type NCO's who are really hard on the grading process for the APFT. If a Soldier barely passed the pre-execution diagnostic at the unit he/ she is most likely to have issues with passing with the more stringent grading that is normal at NCOES courses. Most CSM initiate a 70,70, 70 policy to give the Soldiers a little cushion due to harder grading. It may seem to be wrong but I think you would be better off working a little harder to achieve the 70 in each event verses being sent home from NCOES for a failed APFT.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:44 AM

2016-03-22T08:44:12-04:00

The correct answer is no but it needs to be understood that such Soldiers stand a chance of failing as standards at NCOES are tougher and a failure is a quick way out of the military.

Response by SGT Richard Setinc made Mar 22 at 2016 8:50 AM

2016-03-22T08:50:08-04:00

When I went to WLC in 2008, I left with a PT score of 100, 100, 62.

Response by SFC Carl Little made Mar 22 at 2016 8:52 AM

2016-03-22T08:52:58-04:00

I feel that he or she should not hold you back unless, you barely made it.

Response by MSG Mark Nesgoda made Mar 22 at 2016 8:54 AM

2016-03-22T08:54:14-04:00

Can and should just to save you from yourself and failing.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 8:55 AM

2016-03-22T08:55:20-04:00

Yes he can. And really he's not doing it cause he doesn't think it'll shine upon the battalion good or anything like it, it's more of he wants to ensure you'll pass your APFT at the school and perform well. He doesn't want to send someone and then they find themselves out of the school cause they couldn't pass the APFT.

Response by SFC Ken Heise made Mar 22 at 2016 9:00 AM

2016-03-22T09:00:54-04:00

No he cannot. The Army standard is 60 points in each event. Everything above that is a bonus for the individual taking the APFT. So as long as you are meeting the Army standard you cannot be denied school. Now that being said most CSMs like to see Soldiers do much better on the APFT before they send you to school. That way you don't come home as a PT failure. This is because most schools have stricter standards on how the PT test is graded. They still use the Army standards but are followed to the letter.

Response by SFC Chris Crossley made Mar 22 at 2016 9:04 AM

2016-03-22T09:04:18-04:00

Looking at the Prerequisites for attendance for Maneuver SLC. If a Solider fails the APFT (twice) they are removed from the course. The consequences of being are outlined in the hyperlink. Now a soldier who earns 60 points on each event passes the APFT according to regulations, but is that Soldier, especially a NCO living the Creed and Army Values? I would argue that the CSM is this instance is exercising excellent judgment in not allowing this NCO to attend PME until that NCO demonstrates "excellence in Physical Fitness" and not just enough to meet the standard.
On a personal note, once upon a time when I was a PLDC instructor, ever Soldier who showed up to attend the 101ST NCOA had "passed the APFT" within 30 days of attending. The APFT failure rate was so high, that we had a vide camera operator standing by. A grader would signal a Senior Instructor who would stand next to the grade and observe. If needed the senior would signal the video camera operator who would video the soldier performing the Push Ups and or Sit-ups. If the Soldier failed the APFT, the video was shown the PLDC 1SG. It was an unbelievable set of checks and balances, but the amount of APFT failures from Soldiers who had "passed the APFT recently" was equally unbelievable.
Just my perspective from my Mortar Pit.

** ATRRS Prerequisites and consequences for failing the APFT**
https://www.atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/prerequisites.aspx?fy=2014&sch=698&crs=0-11%2F19-C46&phase=1&cls=003&clsflag=&startDate=2014-03-04&endDate=2014-04-07

ATRRS Course Catalog

The information presented on this web site can not be reused, copied, duplicated, or distributed for non-ATRRS purposes without written permission from Military Personnel Management (DAPE-MPT), HQDA Army G-1, U.S. Army. This page was generated on 08:56:16 on 22-March-2016 from data provided by Army Training Requirements and Resources System (ATRRS).

Response by SSG Antonio Borden made Mar 22 at 2016 9:08 AM

2016-03-22T09:08:41-04:00

I agree that if you are meeting the standards at 60% in each category you should not be denied the school. On the other hand, if the school you desire to attend is Airborne, Air Assault, Ranger, or Selection, you must needs be more capable. Have your leaders address the CSM about this, a soldier is meeting Army standards and should not be punished for not achieving a perfect 300 on an APFT.

Response by PVT John Williams made Mar 22 at 2016 9:12 AM

2016-03-22T09:12:53-04:00

They can deny anything they want. But that would mean it's either personal or they are just being a prick! ( IMO)

Response by SFC Ken Heise made Mar 22 at 2016 9:24 AM

2016-03-22T09:24:31-04:00

Reading through a lot of the responses here it is OVBIOUS that senior leadership does NOT know the standards for the APFT. There is a lot of cross talk about "minimum" standards here. Let me make this clear. BY REGULATION, 180 on the APFT (60 points in each event) IS THE ARMY STANDARD. Not the minimum standard. 181 is EXCEEDING the ARMY standard. 179 is BELOW the Army standard irregardless of what your opinion is. Just because a Soldier exceeds the standard by scoring 300 on the APFT does not necessarily make them a good leader. I have seen too many so called PT studs fall out of road marches because they could not keep up with Soldiers who scored lower on the APFT. I have seen these so called PT studs who could not for the life of day qualify with their assigned weapon, but lower scoring Soldiets out shoot them all day long. I have seen these so called PT studs who could not lead a horse to water. And I have seen lower scoring Soldiers who are HIGHLY effective leaders.

What we need to do is concentrate on the total Soldier concept when sending a Soldier to school. If the Soldier is meeting the ARMY STANDARDS then you cannot hold them back.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Mar 22 at 2016 9:35 AM

2016-03-22T09:35:02-04:00

By regulation? NO, in reality and by functionally effectiveness, you bet.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 9:58 AM

2016-03-22T09:58:01-04:00

As the Army saying goes you can add to but you can't take away from the regulations. Regulation states that 60 in each event is passing. But Commanders can enforce their own policy that states you must achieve a 70 in each event in order to attend NCOES. I personally agree with 70 for each event. I have seen Soldiers go to WLC barely passing their 2 mile run but they always passed. They get to WLC and have a bad day and fail by seconds. So to prevent this from happening the 70 point rule is enforced. Unless you have medical limitations a 70 in each event is not unreachable with a little work. And it saves you from potential getting a Marginal on your 1059.

Response by SSG Jesse Cheadle made Mar 22 at 2016 10:03 AM

2016-03-22T10:03:30-04:00

Ok. I am twisted here. I guess I always achieved to exceed the standard. If you wanna go and merely strive to meet the standard 60 in each event thats on you. Just know there are better Soldiers who deserve that slot.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 10:09 AM

2016-03-22T10:09:48-04:00

The short of it is, Most Soldiers that score 70 in each event have a hard time passing a APFT at the school house, the school house scores to standard and most units give there Soldiers the benefit of the doubt on exercises. It is to your benefit that you score higher and do not fail PT test at an NCOES. So just work harder and you will get there.

Response by SSG Ricardo Marcial made Mar 22 at 2016 10:17 AM

2016-03-22T10:17:07-04:00

Well if that E4 wants to make E5, why are they are a minimum standard looking to excel. They should be doing something to improve themselves physically and mentally. If they can't manage their fitness in garrison, how while they perform in a combat zone. We may be drawn down but stuff happens and you can find yourself back in the sandbox or on a 10,000 mountain looking at the other 3,000 feet above you. So yeah, the CSM will and should hold them back.

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Mar 22 at 2016 10:22 AM

2016-03-22T10:22:25-04:00

I have seen CSM from at least 2 units I was assigned deny a school because the soldier didn't meet his/her standards even if they were above the normal standards. The thinking behind it was that school standards were harder then the unit standards and if they got 70 at the unit that would mean in most cases they would get a lower score in school. Ive seen this happen to where the soldier only passed the APFT by one push-up or two at the unit and go to school and fail because they couldn't complete the APFT to that schools standards. It also comes down to money and unit reputation. sending a soldier to a school and that soldier failing costs the unit money they could use on a soldier that is ready for school. Then there is the rep of the unit. If a soldier fails the APFT that unit CSM will get an ear full from that school's Leadership. Again I've seen it and the Unit CSM's take it personally. so they adopt a harder standard to make sure soldiers don't fail at the school.

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Mar 22 at 2016 10:22 AM

2016-03-22T10:22:28-04:00

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Mar 22 at 2016 10:23 AM

2016-03-22T10:23:04-04:00

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Mar 22 at 2016 10:23 AM

2016-03-22T10:23:06-04:00

Response by SGT Shawn Schweinberg made Mar 22 at 2016 10:25 AM

2016-03-22T10:25:27-04:00

So I hit the Respond button and it didn't do anything the first time so I hit it again and again and then my response popped up like 3 times. So let me say I'm sorry for that. Wasn't trying to spam my response to you like that.

Response by SGT Jerry Powell made Mar 22 at 2016 10:27 AM

2016-03-22T10:27:19-04:00

In order to be a leader, you not only need to possess the knowledge and characteristics of a leader, but you must have the physical capabilities to perform above your subordinates. There is no reason to send someone to school who does not possess the motivation to go above and beyond the minimum requirements to pass the APFT. After all, a leader is there to train, advise, assist, and motivate subordinates. The CSM is correct in not signing the letter of release for this soldier.

Response by SFC Jeff Gurchinoff made Mar 22 at 2016 10:40 AM

2016-03-22T10:40:03-04:00

Sounds like you just want life handed to you. Effort in = effort out. One of many evaluation metrics is PT. For example; A sham shield wearing soldier has had ample time (barring some injury) to achieve more than simply the bare minimum. The Army does not need E5's it needs SGTs you want to climb the ladder put forth the effort. Leading from the front means to lead at PT as well. Small group leadership positions are the most influential on soldier development in the Army. Your CSM Does not want a bare minimum leader in that position. NCOES Failure possibility aside. If you can achieve a bare minimum at your unit the odds you will fail at NCOES are enormous because you don't have your buddy counting your weak ass push ups for you.... or twirling flutter kicks or whatever the hell you all do now.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 10:45 AM

2016-03-22T10:45:57-04:00

Yes, its ultimately their decision to send you, and with money getting tighter, they can push forward those who know are going to pass. Some of these schools happen in different states, altitudes, etc. The conditions will be harsher for some to maintain, and if you're already barely passing then that is adequate reason to not send you.

Response by SSG Wayne Wood made Mar 22 at 2016 10:56 AM

2016-03-22T10:56:19-04:00

He's actually doing the troop a favor if it doesn't adversely affect the troop's future ability to attend the school. I don't know how thing are run these days but back when I was in one had PLC for non-combat arms and PNCOC/CA for combat arms MOSes. These slots were given at a fairly local level and lists were maintained by First Sergeants on a seniority/merit basis. So, if you miss a class on that basis no harm no foul, you get in better shape and maybe make the next slot. But, if you show up to that school and fail due to PT (as has already been mentioned) it can be a rock in your rucksack that can and usually will come back to haunt you. In these days of drawdowns you don't want that.

Now, if it's a DoD or DoA school that's another ball of wax. In either event, I would suggest getting out and doing some extra PT, if that's the name of the game these days, that's how you play.

As far as your CSM is concerned, even if he is wrong you may find yourself peeing in the wind if you argue. He is obviously trying to save you from failure. As an old First Sergeant once told me, "There is 'pass' - and there is 'class.'"

Just a side note; when I attended Jump School in 1981 everyone had a completed and passed Airborne PT Test in their packet yet we still lost almost 1/3 of the students who fell out for training the first day of Ground Week because we didn't meet THEIR standards. We only had to do 45 perfect pushups in 2 minutes and 45 perfect situps in two minutes. The FIRST 45 were fairly easy - it was the second and third we had to do to meet their standards that got tough...

Response by 1SG William Svoboda made Mar 22 at 2016 11:04 AM

2016-03-22T11:04:15-04:00

While it seems unjust/fair it really is to protect the SM from failing because if they only hit the minimum at their duty station it is quite possible they'll fail at the school's location just because of acclimation issues or other environmental, (ex sea level) or head space and timing issues, (stress). I served as a SGL, class advisor, and senior instructor for the AMEDD NCO Academy back in the day and we experienced soldiers failing when they were 60% er's and as a 1SG I had to sign off on soldiers and the BN CSM was on the line for the cost associated with having a soldier returned so all parties should shot for 70 as their goal because at the end of the day it affects their career and the pocketbook.

Response by MSG Clark Shumway made Mar 22 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-03-22T11:17:00-04:00

Yes he can. It's a stupid move on his/her part and a sign of a piss poor leader. You as a leader should always give your troops the chance to excel and improve them selves.

Response by SPC Jeremy Cobb made Mar 22 at 2016 11:17 AM

2016-03-22T11:17:03-04:00

Soldiers don't want to be lead by an NCO that barely meets the standard. If the CSM stops that NCO from moving forward, he is doing that NCO and future soldiers a favor. The NCO should take the denial in stride and work on improving.

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Mar 22 at 2016 11:23 AM

2016-03-22T11:23:34-04:00

that is an IG complaint.. The US Army has set standards of what is acceptable. Your Unit is part of the Whole. When a CSM takes it upon himself to change that standard he is violating what the Army has deemed acceptable

Response by SFC Merilee Switzer made Mar 22 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-03-22T11:49:02-04:00

When I was a Training NCO at my last assignment, the Command had a policy that all SM's had to have at least a 70 in each area of the APFT before they could apply for schools. We tried to make sure they had a valid APFT within 30 days of their scheduled start date for school to ensure they met /exceeded the prerequisite - a few courses had specific APFT score requirements for each event. The reasoning was because there was a high percentage of SM's rejected for failing the initial APFT once they arrived at their training site. They used to require a record APFT within the first few days or even the day of arrival before SM's got to see the inside of a classroom. I'd request clarification from your Training NCO on why a request was denied and locate any published policy within your Command to ensure accuracy. Everything is usually spelled out on the ATRRS site for each course. Search: https://www.atrrs.army.mil/atrrscc/search.aspx for your course and review the requirements and prerequisites. Remember too that your Command is responsible for ensuring you meet the requirements before you even apply for a school. Rejections cost the Command training dollars.

Response by SGT Chris Quesenberry made Mar 22 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-03-22T11:49:22-04:00

Technically its not upon the CSM to make that call, however commanders follow the guidance of the CSM. CSM's have power and utilize that power to influence how a commander puts policies into effect.

Response by SFC Merilee Switzer made Mar 22 at 2016 11:49 AM

2016-03-22T11:49:26-04:00

Response by SFC J Fullerton made Mar 22 at 2016 11:51 AM

2016-03-22T11:51:52-04:00

I always believed that holding a higher standard at the unit before school was taking care of the Soldier- If they can only marginally pass the minimum standard as an NCO then obviously they need some remedial PT to ensure they can successfully pass the APFT at school. Of course there is an individual responsibility, but Senior NCO's don't set up other NCO's for failure. Better to wait and get your ass in shape than flunk out of an NCOES school.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 12:01 PM

2016-03-22T12:01:39-04:00

Are you Guard or Active? Our state (Idaho) requires that all NCOs score a 70 in each event before they will send us. It's been this way for a few years now.......but I can't speak for any other States.

Response by 1SG Brett Austin made Mar 22 at 2016 12:12 PM

2016-03-22T12:12:43-04:00

The challenge for me here is two-fold. Are they leading by example and are they truly physically and mentally fit to attend school? If you were the CSM and you have failures due to PT, you're being called on the carpet. Leadership courses are both physically and mentally challenging, and is it fair to the soldier, the unit and to the school to send marginal troops to such a course. The other reason the CSM (and others) have restricted soldiers' attendance to many schools, is due to the variability in grading. I may be a relaxed grader and pass someone with a 70, whereas you are a tough grader, and pass that same person with a 60... and schools are frequently more stringent than a unit's grader(s).

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 12:27 PM

2016-03-22T12:27:00-04:00

Would you feel right sending a soldier that is borderline to any school that would test them when they got there? At home station we tend to be more lenient than at a school. I sent 4 Airmen to a School and Three of them failed out of the Physical Fitness Assessment.

It sounds like the SGM has your career in his best interests. Maybe you should get this soldier to step it up and prove they are worth sending to a school.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 12:38 PM

2016-03-22T12:38:34-04:00

By the AR no, but company policy could be set so you must have a minimum score of 80% or higher to qualify to go to Any NCOES school.

Response by SrA Paul Pfeil made Mar 22 at 2016 12:47 PM

2016-03-22T12:47:08-04:00

First, if you are whining about your career, perhaps, your attitude is your problem, and you need a serious adjustment. Second if you are passed over for any school, especially a leadership school, perhaps you are not leadership material, and your leadership sees it. Third, if you just meet minimum standards, you are NOT excelling, you are stagnant, and NOT the type of soldier that today's military wants. Forth, if you only meet minimum standards, perhaps there are plenty of soldiers who are excelling ahead of you that are more qualified and show more want for career progression. My point is if you are unhappy with where you are at, get off the minimum boat, and get on the superior boat.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 1:03 PM

2016-03-22T13:03:09-04:00

Yes, the BC/CSM can set a reasonable standard (70% is reasonable for school attendance. Look at at it from a financial standpoint. You go and are sent home for failing the APFT, that is a couple of thousands of dollars (pay and travel) that was wasted. Not only that, as an NCO, You should be striving for 300 not 180 on the APFT.

Response by SFC Stanley Wood made Mar 22 at 2016 1:07 PM

2016-03-22T13:07:01-04:00

You go to the school and have an off day with PT and you don't get 60 in each then you are sent back to your unit. Your unit has wasted a slot for the school, the SM will be gone. Remember the Army is shrinking so re-enlistment slots become competitive, not a good situation for a marginal SM.

Response by SFC Kenneth Karnop made Mar 22 at 2016 1:11 PM

2016-03-22T13:11:15-04:00

It is a little harder question than "can". A CSM has to ask himself and the Service Member not if he CAN go but SHOULD he go?
I don't care if I am on the carpet for you failing and you did nothing and you ruining your career but I refuse being on that carpet for me being complacent and fail to do everything I can to help you succeed. Sometimes that is test, reevaluate, retest and even make that hard decision.
If you are going to an NCOES to continue your career wouldn't you want to make sure that it wasn't stage where you ruined it? If you want to go but planning to get out anyway then I will tell you "No" and get you removed from eligibility so that school seat can be filled by someone who wants to continue can.

Response by CPT Jeff Reichardt made Mar 22 at 2016 1:12 PM

2016-03-22T13:12:47-04:00

I was an NCO for 24 years before I became an officer. I would suggest that this soldier needs an attitude adjustment. Passing PT isn't enough in my book to go to any leadership course. Especially if there are only a few slots for these schools.

Response by CPT Jeff Reichardt made Mar 22 at 2016 1:24 PM

2016-03-22T13:24:16-04:00

Simple answer. Yes.

Through my 30 year career I was an instructor in PLDC, BNOC and ANOC. THESE COURSES ARE NOT A RIGHT. THEY ARE A PRIVILEGE.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 1:26 PM

2016-03-22T13:26:05-04:00

Well considering the Chain of Command is now getting Letters of Reprimand if a soldier fails weight and tape or the PT test at a NCOES school I as a leader would push back when a soldier goes to these schools until I can ensure they won't fail. As a leader you shouldn't be anywhere near the minimum standard. As long as you are capable and able not striving to be on top shows lack of drive and initiative. The Army needs competence and top performers..

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Mar 22 at 2016 1:28 PM

2016-03-22T13:28:49-04:00

Guess my question is as a NCO and a leader of Soldiers why don't you want to get more than 70 in each event. You should be leading your Soldiers by example and striving for the best. And really 70 isn't that hard...it just calls for a little heart and effort.
Sounds like your CSM is trying to protect you from failing. I graded many PT test some for NCOA, I grade to standard...which usually means if you only do your do your minimum and you get any wrong you are screwed. Common mistakes (arms not parallel with the ground, even though your belly touches or not going all the way up...half up all the way down) (butt bouncing on sit-ups or fingers not interlaced). These are things that if you don't do right and you fail good luck enjoy your assassinated career.

Response by MSG Jimmie Mark made Mar 22 at 2016 2:03 PM

2016-03-22T14:03:25-04:00

No he can't stop an individual from going to those required school, the CSM just want to look out for that Soldier.The schools tend to grade harder than your battle buddies at home station.....if that NCO fail the Soldier is going to get counseled and depending on the NCO possible separation in today's Army.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Mar 22 at 2016 2:07 PM

2016-03-22T14:07:09-04:00

I don't believe a CSM has the authority to deny any orders. They can make recommendations to the commander. As long as you meet all the criteria for the school as stated in the regulation I don't see any reason to try to stop someones orders. The service schools grade on very strict requirements. That sloppy last push up that got you to 60% or fingers slipping loose doing a sit up, or the ten seconds over your run time won't cut it. Your buddies are not your scorers while in a service school. I have been in units that enforce the standards very strictly for the PT test for candidates because they don't want you to go to the school and fail the PT test at the school and get sent home. That would be more of a career-ender than the CSM saying you have to get a 70 in each event so that you have a fudge factor. It cost money to send you to school and if you are not FULLY prepared you are wasting tax payer money and the Army's time. Remember the slogan is "Be All That You Can Be", not "Do What I Can To Get By." The service/leadership schools have a function to keep the Army standardized. If you are just barely getting by in you home unit, you won't make it through the school.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 2:11 PM

2016-03-22T14:11:24-04:00

With today's soft Army, who knows. When I went to PLDC, our BN CSM required 75% on each category of the PT test or you disn't go. Period. It was right after Christmas break, and I maxxed pu/su, but only scored a 71 on my run. Was told to either take another PT test two days later, or I couldn't go. I took another and stopped at 80% on pu/su, and scored a 79 on my run. That 239 got me into PLDC over my 271, where I received Distinguished Honor Grad. Felt like throwing that cert at the CSM and telling him this is what you almost cost me and this BN!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 3:20 PM

2016-03-22T15:20:04-04:00

So, let's do this in the logical way, shall we? The legitimate answer to your question is NO, a CSM cannot deny orders because you didn't meet some superficial number he imposed.
Now, let's take a look at what is required and what is trending Army wide, and why CSM's are putting these sort of 'restrictions' on your school.
1. 60 in each event is all that is required
1a. Even with the minimum requirement, NCO's are failing the school APFT. This no longer is reason to remove a student from the course, but it will send you home with a marginal 1059, which you may as well just figure out what to do next in your life, because you'll likely hit the next QMP/QSP board selection.
2. When you go to an NCOES school and you fail your PT test, your CSM will get a direct phone call from the SMA to explain why he let a soldier attend the school and end up in situation 1a above. No CSM I know wants to have that conversation with SMA, hense, he makes you have a little wiggle room so he gets the warm and fuzzy you won't fuck it up when you get there.
3. As a leader in the Army, why in the world are you not able to achieve a simple 210 on the APFT, and why is this a topic of discussion amongst those who are supposed to set an example for the younger soldiers?
4. If your goals include being able to maintain or barely achieve the minimum standards, you need to reconsider your line of work and the values of this institution. Take a few moments and reflect upon your time as a soldier, dreaming of being in that leadership role.....did it ever once cross your mind that you wanted to be the leader that barely scraped by, or did you as the young soldier resent those above you who could barely achieve the minimum standards and how effective were they as a leader to you? I don't know too many grown men who wake up each day thinking that they are happy with being marginal.
There is no need to think I personally score a 300 or 300+, or to think that I preach the idea that PT defines you as a leader, but the reality is that I have yet to ever see or hear about an amazing or effective leader who barely achieves the minimum standard. If you do even the littlest bit of organized PT with your unit, scoring a 240-250-260 is not that unfair to ask of any soldier.

Maybe instead of asking why minimum isn't good enough, maybe you should be asking yourself why you are accepting the minimum as good enough. Strengthen the NCO corps, young SGT, do not allow yourself to be a part of the problem.

Response by SGT Mark Sullivan made Mar 22 at 2016 3:32 PM

2016-03-22T15:32:23-04:00

IT's going to be at the discretion of the CSM. If the soldier does everything half-assed, then the command will certainly know, and not want to send said soldier to a leadership school. But, if the soldier has proven his or herself to be knowledgeable, proficient, and a hard charger, then it shouldn't be a problem. Again, it should be at the CSM's discretion. Case in point, myself, I never maxed the PT test, but I always gave it my 110% best, I was technically and tactically proficient, I went to PLDC, now called Warriors course, and passed with flying colors. When I went to BNCOC, came TDY en-route from Korea, not able to acclimatize, but still passed the PT test, my room-mate, came from Ft Bliss, arrived on a Firday before BNCOC started, partied the entire weekend and failed the PT test miserably, including height and weight. Needless to say his CSM, 1SG, and PLT SGT weren't happy when he called and told them.

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Mar 22 at 2016 3:43 PM

2016-03-22T15:43:10-04:00

A CSM represent the highest NCO rank which was earned through BLC and ALC and others, the CSM has every right to ensure that a higher quality of person continues on that path, especially when it is an easy requirement of higher PT score. Run Forrest Gump run..

Response by SSG Jack Dryburgh made Mar 22 at 2016 3:50 PM

2016-03-22T15:50:22-04:00

Yes they can due to if they feel that you as a soldier a representative of your unit and or battalion fails any event there at the unit level or at any leadership school, the CSM will talk to your leadership and tell them not to send any soldier that cannot represent unit or battalion in the way you should as an NCO

Response by SFC Kim Armstrong made Mar 22 at 2016 3:57 PM

2016-03-22T15:57:39-04:00

This is not so. Fore if you meet the requirements of the Army and the school you should be able to go. Remember that the Bn Commander signs all documents yay or nay though they do take the recommendation of the CSM . Utilize the open door policy.

Response by SFC Jack Bennett made Mar 22 at 2016 4:03 PM

2016-03-22T16:03:14-04:00

Most schools I am aware require you pass the PT Test however if the new school required challenges I would prepare for more than just a passing score.

Response by 1SG Chuck Scroggins made Mar 22 at 2016 4:20 PM

2016-03-22T16:20:06-04:00

Stay ready, so you don't have to get ready. How would you like to be under the leadership of an NCO who only cares if you meet the minimum? If that's the standard you've set for yourself and your Soldiers, then move over and let someone else lead from the front. "Attitude reflects Leadership"!!!

Response by SFC James Valero made Mar 22 at 2016 4:25 PM

2016-03-22T16:25:07-04:00

Your CSM did you a favor. Your CSM saved us some valuable taxpayer dollars. Your CSM is trying to motivate you. Well according to regs you are correct. However if you can only deliver >60% now... where will you be in 5 or 10 years. But if I have a SPC who gives no less than 90% and works like an excellent SPC rather than an average NCO, that SPC is whom I send to Sergeant School (Yeah I went back that far) I've seen at least a few chapters break down in tears, because they'll never make SGT/E-5 due to whatever reason. To me that shows a lack of contingency and preparation. You are asking your chain of command to take a gamble on you. So you can have the odds be 60% or 90%. Bottom Line: When you arrive to in process BLC/ALC/SLC you will take an APFT, that is the standard.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 5:17 PM

2016-03-22T17:17:53-04:00

School APFT are generally very strict. So he may feel that at schools standard you may not pass, which will not be fun for you. I would not go to a school unless I had 70 in each event as well.

Response by SFC Chet Crowell made Mar 22 at 2016 5:32 PM

2016-03-22T17:32:02-04:00

Leadership isn't based on achieving the standard, or the minimum. What exactly do you think you should get for doing the minimum? Of course a CSM can stop you. There are other Soldiers that deserve that slot.

Response by SFC Clark Adams made Mar 22 at 2016 5:33 PM

2016-03-22T17:33:21-04:00

CSM's don't approve or issue school orders..........too many of them think they are Field Grade EM!!!This is a discussion you need to have with your Commander. Local units cannot mandate requirements over and above DA standards. If this route fails drop a letter to your Congressman and the DA IG not the local IG. You will get this problem cleared up right away! Good luck!!

Response by SFC Jim Ruether made Mar 22 at 2016 5:34 PM

2016-03-22T17:34:23-04:00

I think the CSM can put his two cents worth in but our CSM never got involved in the management decisions of his NCO's unless they were really stepping on their #%&'s. He would volunteer his guidance on the issue though, you could always count on that. We were told that if you passed your PT Test you were promotable and could be considered for additional schools and or training. It was to your benefit to be in as good a shape physically as possible because its the first thing you do when you go to any of these schools. If you fail the entry PT Test you have not only embarrassed yourself but you have also embarrassed the NCO who approved your attendance to the course. You have also taken a class position away from someone else who may have been better qualified. So do your best, be your best and make us all proud of you soldier.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-03-22T17:35:00-04:00

It's our BDE policy, based on Soldiers on t meeting the standard and failing when they attend the school.

Response by SFC Chet Crowell made Mar 22 at 2016 5:35 PM

2016-03-22T17:35:53-04:00

Read the opinions carefully. Some squared away Soldiers are giving you legit advice. Get yourself squared away, stop doing the minimum and get focused on Leading, not following.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 5:53 PM

2016-03-22T17:53:22-04:00

i dont know about csms but as 1fg if i have 2 sms up for schooling and promotion, and only one slot to fill for the school, i'm going to send the the better of the 2, period.

Response by CW4 Scott Hyde made Mar 22 at 2016 5:53 PM

2016-03-22T17:53:43-04:00

He can and he should. If you fail the APFT at the school you go home and the unit lost a slot. Fix your injury, get your level of fitness where it needs to be. 180 may be the standard but I woul prefer my brain surgeon to have more than a 'D' average if he is cracking open my melon. A 'D' may be a passing grade but just getting by is not where you want to be as a leader. Invest in yourself, get healthy, and meet the 70 points per event, or a 'C' if you will. 210 points is still pretty low.

Response by 1SG Hector A. Rivera made Mar 22 at 2016 5:56 PM

2016-03-22T17:56:04-04:00

Well, SGT Parrott, you have one of two choices...
1- Get your injury documented, treated and revisit NCOES after you have recovered. Or
2- Suck it up and score the 70 points
You cannot not have it both ways. Either your injured or not... Your CSM is looking out for you, believe me. In today's Army, a "Marginal" on a 1059 is a death sentence. This has nothing to do with how hard or easy you're being graded. You can have a bad day, and if your good days are 60%, your bad day is a failure. You need to give yourself a buffer. I have said for years that all NCOs should be able to score at least 75% in each event any day of the year... Something to think about.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 7:23 PM

2016-03-22T19:23:04-04:00

This is the stuff that passes off to no end. We get preached constantly that we are guardians of the rules and regulations. That we are the enforcers. So if getting 60 on your pt test is passing. And that is meeting the standards. Then we as enforcers should respect those standards. If he gets turned away at the school for failing a APFT, that's on him. Stop holding a soldiers hand. They are adults, it's time we treat them that way.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 7:27 PM

2016-03-22T19:27:38-04:00

Honestly the CSM is probably doing the right thing by playing it safe, ethical or not. Getting kicked out of an NCOES is a career killer. Don't look at it as being tough or holding you back. Look at it as your CSM protecting you from making a big mistake!

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Mar 22 at 2016 7:41 PM

2016-03-22T19:41:32-04:00

From time to time some people get carried away with their importance, and elevate requirement above the Army standards. They seem to forget, their primary job is to help soldiers, not make their lives more difficult.

Response by SGT Sean Lynch made Mar 22 at 2016 8:36 PM

2016-03-22T20:36:35-04:00

No. As long as the PT test is passed, there shouldn't be any problem.

Response by SPC Wanda Vergara-Yates made Mar 22 at 2016 8:53 PM

2016-03-22T20:53:23-04:00

I believe that the best candidates competing at a given time should be the ones sent. Otherwise, what incentive do potential leaders have for reaching the higher standard? However, there are always exceptions to the rule, and a good leader will always keep those in mind.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 22 at 2016 10:49 PM

2016-03-22T22:49:20-04:00

I don't think CSM can do that, however, if you were my soldier, I'd deny you. The reason is because as a leader, I expect you to lead by example. I don't expect your soldiers to out perform you and carry your slack because your barely meeting 60 percent. That's actually pretty embarrassing.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 12:18 AM

2016-03-23T00:18:22-04:00

No. Nobody can deny someone to not go without the deferment from the first GO in the chain of command, regardless of the compo. If they fail an APFT prior to, you flag them and they are dropped with a 4187. They pass, but barely, they are still going. It's STEP and that is the way of the future. We as leaders need to make sure our subordinates are always ready.

TRADOC has made a push to clear the back log of NCOs without the requisite NCOPDS and the CSM who fails to send promotable SPCs and NCOs to the appropriate school will have to hear from SMA Dailey and CSM Davenport. This is a huge issue. Now, if that SM shows up fat, out of shape, and not prepared, we are actually holding them to the standard. A marginal 1059 is a career killer.... they get what they earn and we are honest brokers. I would much rather clear out the dead weight at NCOPDS for a few grand in taxpayers dollars then keep a Soldier who has been hiding out and not pulling their weight.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 3:48 AM

2016-03-23T03:48:13-04:00

Yes I think they can. Once you get to SSG and hire, it's important that you keep your physical fitness. A lot of it has to do with, being a NCO, your pt should be better than your soliders; were 70% comes from. A SM has same guildlines for their school. I think that's a leader SM

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Mar 23 at 2016 4:11 AM

2016-03-23T04:11:47-04:00

Response by SSG David Dickson made Mar 23 at 2016 4:49 AM

2016-03-23T04:49:36-04:00

BLUF: yes they can. It doesn't matter how you feel on the subject. 60 is a minimal requirement. A CSM can imbue their own personal standards on NCOES attendance. In addition to furthering one's own career, they are also are presentation to others of the unit. Any CSM worth their salt will not risk their reputation in a minimally performing Soldier who may or may not embarrass the unit in front of their peers. So yeah, it's a priveledge, not a right to attend NCOES, one that should be earned.

Response by CSM Oscar Shaw III made Mar 23 at 2016 7:45 AM

2016-03-23T07:45:58-04:00

I am in agreement with you SGT Parrott. If the Soldier meets the minimum qualifications in each APFT event, he/she cannot be legally kept out of any NCOES leadership course.

Response by SFC Louis Willhauck, MSM, JSCM, and ARCOM made Mar 23 at 2016 7:49 AM

2016-03-23T07:49:12-04:00

There were the same sort of self-aggrandized demagoguery back in my day. Best bet is to go to the actual regs for the courses, see if there is something about needing 70 to go to the school. If not, then a trip to the IG is called for... Because it is ultimately your call and your fall if you don't pass in the end. When I went to ANCOES I got the highest academic score but though I did pass the PT test, the #2 academic scorer got a higher PT score... and he was also a drinking buddy with the persons in charge, so they made up this thing about giving HIM Distinguished graduate and I ended up with Honor graduate (#2). I thought about challenging it but later decided "why bother?".

In this case, there was ultimate justice in this world...a couple years later when he was the 1SG of the unit I was stationed at; I got to witness him being relieved for cause. Take heart, occasionally justice does happen.

Response by CSM Brian Vanwagner made Mar 23 at 2016 7:56 AM

2016-03-23T07:56:43-04:00

each cycle there's only so many slots for schools. If the Battalion or Brigade has a standard for their NCO's, then yes they can restrict that person from attending a Leadership School. the Army is very competitive career field and only those that are above the minimum will succeed. Start working out!

Response by 1SG Vance Lea made Mar 23 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-03-23T07:59:09-04:00

Yes a CSM can deny your attendance to the school; however, most likely he will not due simply to the fact that you didn't score 70 percent. You need to request to see your 1SG and have him/her explain why you were denied. As stated by many leaders on this sight, their can be a number of reasons such as availblitity, priority, etc. I'm such that you not being able to score 70 percent is not the sole reason.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 7:59 AM

2016-03-23T07:59:46-04:00

What is the real reason? Is it because 60 isnt good enough for him, because thats the wrong answer. Is it because he is worried that statistically NCO Schools grade harder on a PT test and you may fail at the school? If its the second reason, possible talk with the CSM and assure him/her you know the risks, and are sure you will pass. If its the first reason, IG or Article 138.

Response by MAJ Patrick Hairston CISSP, AWS Certified Cloud Architect made Mar 23 at 2016 8:07 AM

2016-03-23T08:07:16-04:00

I would say no. There is a standard. The standard is 180 on PT tests to stay in the military. If there needs to be a higher standard to go to schools, put it in a regulation. Otherwise, no, you cant stop someone who exceeds (no matter how small of exceeding) the standard from going to a career school. As a commander, I sent people to schools all the time with 70's across the board. I would think that's a minimum for the soldier to go. At some point, the soldier has to be honest with him or herself if they are ready to go to the school and not embarrass their unit with a failure of a PT test or tape test...
To eliminate the question, there needs to be an addition to FM 21-20 or AR 350-1 that says soldiers must score 70's in all events to go to professional development school...

Response by 1SG Michael Blount made Mar 23 at 2016 8:45 AM

2016-03-23T08:45:58-04:00

A narrowly-define answer to your question is "no". That's because a CSM is subject to the same regulations and statutes as anyone else. AS A PRACTICAL MATTER, however - that's a large tiger you're about to lock horns with. Do you really think you'll win? Might be easier to get 70's across the board.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 9:17 AM

2016-03-23T09:17:07-04:00

Well, it sounds like he already did this so I'm going to say, Yes! Your CSM is there to ensure your success during your tenure at any course. If you want to be a leader, you need to start acting like one. Obviously you or the person you are talking about lacks physical fitness skills. Work on it so you can score the max and not the minimum. This will ensure you pass the APFT at school but display the importance of physical fitness to your subordinates. Physical fitness has been put on the back burner too long. It needs to become a priority again. Do yourself or your friend a favor and put your energy towards getting more fit rather than complain about not getting into a school. The CSM didn't tell anyone not to worry about physical fitness, that was an individual choice. See a nutritionist and master fitness NCO and put yourself on a program. If you google Thor workouts, they have decent 14 week workouts. Get out there and lead from the front!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 9:28 AM

2016-03-23T09:28:02-04:00

My platoon sergeant told us like this. If you want to do the minimum In everything that's fine nothing says you can't. But if you want all these schools and want to advance in your career don't bitch and whine when you don't get sent.

Response by CSM Tommy Nester made Mar 23 at 2016 9:42 AM

2016-03-23T09:42:00-04:00

You must pass the APT to attend NCOS classes.

Response by 1SG Carter Hickman made Mar 23 at 2016 9:56 AM

2016-03-23T09:56:07-04:00

I believe you're correct on your ascertain. While I was a First Sergeant the Company Commander wanted to chapter 15 of our soldiers for pt failures because they did not receive 65 percent in each event. I told him the policy say's 60 percent and he could not chapter them for pt failures. Needless to say he was upset with me but Army Policy is quite clear on these things. I believe you're correct and if you are further denied I believe you have a legitimate IG complaint but try to resolve the situation in-house.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 10:31 AM

2016-03-23T10:31:46-04:00

I have a policy in place requiring all Soldiers to score a minimum of 210 with 70 in each event to attend any school. Here's why: I've had 2 Soldiers in the last 18 months fail the APFT at BLC and be sent home. In the reserve component its a significant loss when we lose a school slot. We may only get a handful this year.

Some say I can enforce this policy, others say I can't. Does anyone have the actual regulation governing this?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 10:50 AM

2016-03-23T10:50:10-04:00

I thought the new policy is that you're automatically scheduled for attendance (supposed to be) when you're eligible and have no flags i.e. you pass PT. Leadership isn't supposed to have any input into the matter. Better pass when you're there though or its hell to pay.

Response by SFC Olivero Rodriguez made Mar 23 at 2016 12:11 PM

2016-03-23T12:11:47-04:00

the total PT score is 70 %, if you want to be a better NCO you should try to be better yourself, if you blame a ranking NCO for your failure I know for sure I don't want you as a leader of troops. especially in the infantry, I want NCO that can perform above all NCO, when I was in the Army I flunk my PT test several times, but I reengage and improved passing my PT test with a better score, you want to be a leader, you need to act like one. I applaud the CSM that stop you for going forward to a better school, achievements are accomplished by every leader. There are to many NCO's that have being promote ahead of the better NCO's do to a lack of leadership, I did not promoted failure.

Response by CPT Kyle Barden made Mar 23 at 2016 2:04 PM

2016-03-23T14:04:43-04:00

You want to go to a leadership school, SGT? Why not lead by example and step up your PT scores? That'd probably be easier in the long run than fighting the CSM, not to mention the right thing to do. Come on man, step up to the challenge and lead from the front. You can handle it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 23 at 2016 3:38 PM

2016-03-23T15:38:39-04:00

Most commands should be requiring the 70 points in each event. It gives you a cushion.

Response by SGM Monte Pursifull made Mar 23 at 2016 7:12 PM

2016-03-23T19:12:54-04:00

Although I retired as a SGM, I was the senior NCO in my CMF and the Commandant of an NCO Academy. (My field was finally allocated 3 CSM slots three years after my retirement.) Yes, a CSM can deny a school for barely-passing performance. I have done so. Build confidence in the CSM that your are truly ready by significantly increasing your PT scores. Perhaps not all will max, but all can ensure that even on a bad day results are damned good!

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Mar 23 at 2016 7:42 PM

2016-03-23T19:42:56-04:00

I would like to thank the chain of command and CSMs who do ensure high standards. Those aiming low, will always be low and wonder why others got promoted. Now that I have twice retired from the Army and a taxpayer, I want the CSMs to ensure the soldier going to school can EXCEED the standards. Those who can only meet the standard 30 days out do not show enough motivation to exceed standards, are the ones that will fail 30 days later, and cost us taxpayers round trip tickets. I have a RECOMMENDATION: Allow the "meets standards" soldier to attend, if they sign an agreement that failure of their PFT at school will cause them to incur the cost of TDY, and travel cost. Yes, that could be a big gamble. If you do not like it, exceed the standards.

Response by 1SG Tony Gemme made Mar 23 at 2016 8:26 PM

2016-03-23T20:26:18-04:00

Going to School is required now to maintain your status and to keep your rank and also if you want to advance in rank, So If you turn it down it isn't in your best interest.

Response by COL Charles Williams made Mar 23 at 2016 11:13 PM

2016-03-23T23:13:11-04:00

Can he or should he? He should. If you can only score 70 points on an APFT event... should be going to any leadership course? SFC(P) Private RallyPoint Member

Response by SPC Mitch Saret made Mar 24 at 2016 12:53 AM

2016-03-24T00:53:50-04:00

The only time I barely passed a PT test was when I had the flu and still took it. Still managed to max out on sit-ups and push-ups but the run was AWFUL!Closest I came to 300 was 298, 2 seconds off! In the 82nd we didn't get specifically tested for PNCO/CA, we were just told we were going. For RECONDO there was a preliminary PT test, though.

Response by SFC Chad Sowash made Mar 24 at 2016 6:18 AM

2016-03-24T06:18:59-04:00

I'm not sure about the system today, but just a few years back it was all about "allotted slots" for schools. If there was just one slot available and the difference between the NCOs vying for that slot was a 210 vs 300+ PT score - well, the choice would be simple for a CSM.

In many cases 1SG won't allow an NCO to attend a school if they are only hitting the 210 mark - remember some schools are more stringent in their testing standards (especially PT) and a 1SG or CSM might want to ensure you don't arrive at the school, BOLO the PT test and then find yourself back home on day one, which is a BIG black eye for the unit and it's leadership.

My advice - focus on making a point to leadership by hitting the 270+ mark. It shows drive and determination - not too mention you're not only competing school slots.

Good luck and stay determined.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 1:39 PM

2016-03-24T13:39:49-04:00

The price for failing an NCOES or Drill Sgt School is a DA Bar which is all but impossible to lift. That means the Soldier's career is over. The CSM is trying to ensure that the Soldier doesn't face that. Me, personally? I believe that the Soldier should be sent regardless of their physical fitness readiness in order to weed out those who want the title of SGT, SSG, SFC, etc but don't want to live up to the expectations of the rank and associated duty positions. BLUF: If you go and fail, will it be his/her (CSM) fault that you were unprepared to meet the minimum Army standards? This argument, unfortunately goes both ways against the unit leadership when they "hold a SM back" or when the SM fails...

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 4:18 PM

2016-03-24T16:18:44-04:00

Not anymore. The only person that can deny you is a general officer. At least that's what my CSM told me because I didn't even pass with the 60 point minimum. Luckily I passed when I went. But that's also a new rule. A year ago they could do that.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Mar 24 at 2016 4:19 PM

2016-03-24T16:19:17-04:00

Yes they can

Response by 1LT William Clardy made Mar 24 at 2016 4:32 PM

2016-03-24T16:32:06-04:00

Just in case nobody else has said it yet, there is a significant difference between being denied training and not being the one selected for an open slot -- and the latter would fall well within the reasonable discretion of a senior NCO.

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2016 5:57 PM

2016-03-24T17:57:19-04:00

Yes.

Response by SFC Roger Senatore made Mar 24 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-03-24T18:10:15-04:00

Response by SFC Roger Senatore made Mar 24 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-03-24T18:10:20-04:00

Response by SFC Roger Senatore made Mar 24 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-03-24T18:10:57-04:00

Response by SFC Roger Senatore made Mar 24 at 2016 6:10 PM

2016-03-24T18:10:59-04:00

No offence to anyone, but meeting the minimums should not be the goal. I know for a fact that as an NCO I had no 'power' to grant or deny, rank, promotions, waivers, schools, or trips to the board. What I did have was the ability to make recommendations to the commander, and fortunately, my recommendations carried a lot of weight. My advice would be to treat the CSM's standard as the minimum, and simply meet it. Your CSM gets the benefit of the doubt that your best interest is the motivation here. Maybe the School House is tough on PT and we all know that failing a PT test at an NCOES school is really, really bad.

Response by MSG Jim Gawne made Mar 24 at 2016 11:21 PM

2016-03-24T23:21:01-04:00

From personal experience on both sides of this issue, I agree that if you meet the standard, you should go. Of course, as you and I both know, meeting the standard at a unit and meeting the standard at a school are two different things. I've known many Cadre who will do their utmost to NOT count a sit-up or push-up if it is even SLIGHTLY off their own personal "standard." A good friend of mine didn't get into Ranger school for this very reason. Your CSM may seem like he/she's making it extra difficult on you, but as others have commented, he/she's actually looking out for your best interest. No one wants to be handed a ticket home on the first day of a leadership school -- and if you are really concerned about not being allowed to attend the course, you might want to talk to your CSM and find out his/her reason. You may be surprised. In my 27 1/2 years in service, I never wanted any of my soldiers to fail.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 9:49 AM

2016-03-25T09:49:56-04:00

There are only so many NCOES slots available. Since not everyone can go it only makes since to send the best. 60% keeps you in the Army, if you want to advance and lead you need to exceed the standard.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 25 at 2016 11:25 AM

2016-03-25T11:25:10-04:00

SGT Parrott,

IAW 350-1 Chapter 3-12 i (1) Individuals must meet course prerequisites and have demonstrated high levels of performance, mental capacity, aptitude, and self-discipline that clearly indicate potential for continued development. (2) Individuals must be fully qualified to perform tasks at their current skill level, be recommended by their chain of command, have their personal and financial affairs in order, have required clothing and equipment, and be mentally and physically prepared for all course requirements.

This is straight out of the regulation. I have found that when I have a question, looking at the regulation gets me the answer in its truest form. There are plenty of people who will give you their opinion based on the amount of knowledge they have accrued throughout their years of service. and that may be accurate or construed by how they interpret it. However, the regulation should be your starting point. If you search for it and still have questions then you have given your due diligence.

So, to answer your question "Can a CSM deny orders for a leadership school such as BLC or ALC just because you don't get a 60 in each PT event?" It depends, how do you read the requirements? I read them that you must be recommended my your chain of command. This does NOT have anything attached to it. This is a requirement for all training, at least as I am aware of it. Just because a Soldier feels that they are ready for a specific school or training does not mean that they feel the same way. We do not promote ourselves, we put ourselves in a position that hopefully gets us promoted, by our chains of command.

SFC Evans

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Mar 25 at 2016 7:26 PM

2016-03-25T19:26:25-04:00

It sounds like the CSM has been burned and embarrassed at Brigade NCO call. Bottomline is that it is wrong. The assertion that he or she is padding the score because they are concerned that the NCO Academy standards are harder, or the concern that the Soldier may have a bad day and fail is a dangerous path to go down. Now having said this, you should be motivated for enumerable reasons to score much better than 70 in each area. I challenge you to challenge yourself.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Mar 26 at 2016 9:51 AM

2016-03-26T09:51:31-04:00

Leaders, in the next 10 years, Military and Federal leaders will need to take more attention/responsibilty for the federal budget. You must find ways to cut the budget and ensure that funds are spent only on the best. We will not be able to afford, almost good. We may not be able to afford extra training, if there are good personnel who are trained, why spend the funds to bring to standards one member, when we should be helping other members to exceed standards. We will be responsible to put limited funds in best improvement for the organization.
This is not radical, businesses have been doing this for years. America has a budget problem.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 26 at 2016 6:00 PM

2016-03-26T18:00:09-04:00

BLC / ALC requires a 2-star general (in USARAK) to defer a soldier's requirement to attend. I cannot even get a soldier out of BLC due to JRTC or Ranger School. So the answer is no. As a Company Commander, if myself and the 1SG are aware that a soldier failed height/weight or their APFT, they are flagged prior to going. That is the only way to keep them out.

Response by SGT Rhonda Ledesma made Mar 26 at 2016 7:58 PM

2016-03-26T19:58:38-04:00

According to FM 21-20:

"Service schools, agencies, and units may set performance goals which are above the minimum APFT standards in accordance with their missions (AR 350-15). Individual soldiers are also encouraged to set for themselves a series of successively higher APFT performance goals. They should always strive to improve themselves physically and never be content with meeting minimum standards. Competition on the APFT among soldiers or units can also be used to motivate them to improve their fitness levels.Service schools, agencies, and units may set performance goals which are above the minimum APFT standards in accordance with their missions (AR 350-15). Individual soldiers are also encouraged to set for themselves a series of successively higher APFT performance goals. They should always strive to improve themselves physically and never be content with meeting minimum standards. Competition on the APFT among soldiers or units can also be used to motivate them to improve their fitness levels".

This paragraph is based on AR 350-15. Both units and military schools can raise the the minimum standard. A good example is the WLC graduation requirements at Ft.Carson of which the minimum score is raised to 70 on each APFT event:

http://www.carson.army.mil/units/wlc/_assets/docs/wlc-graduation-requirements-v2.pdf

Therefore your CSM can delete orders given to Soldiers that have a score of 60 on each APFT event. Look at this way, WLC is strict when scoring Soldiers during an APFT event that would be in accordance to a complete adherence to Army Regulations. As such, this might reduce the score of Soldiers due to incorrect repetitions. For a Soldier that only achieves minimum standard on an APFT, this could lower a passing score to a failing score. The Soldier would then be kicked out of school and deal with a headache that the Soldier and their unit does not want. I would highly recommend working with the Soldier to improve their APFT score (under the strictest of standards) to better prepare them for leadership courses and not risk setting the Soldier up for failure.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 12:41 PM

2016-03-27T12:41:18-04:00

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 9:20 PM

2016-03-27T21:20:10-04:00

no, but you should want to do better. There is nothing worse than having someone over you who barely got by to make it to their position when you're busting your butt to get there. I've had leaders hold me to a higher pt standard than they held themselves too and it was sickening. I finally told him I respect his rank, and I would carry him off a battlefield if need be, but I'd rather he raised his personal fitness standard so I wouldn't have to. I had another leader who always outdid us and it was a competition to catch up to him, and we became the best squad. You should raise your personal standards to increase the effectiveness of your leadership. As a leader you need to be in front of 100% of your men not just 70%, and remember everything you do should be to make yourself a better warfighter.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 27 at 2016 9:29 PM

2016-03-27T21:29:52-04:00

I would have a hard time sending a soldier to NCOES if they were hovering around 60 in each event, knowing that the cadre will likely be very adherent to the rules as far as proper form is concerned. I scored one of my lowest totals at SLC last summer. I was jet lagged, still adjusting to the stresses of the climate, and the academic environment, and had several of my pushups called for form. If I was a 60 pointer going in, I don't think I would have passed.

I try to council soldiers within my sphere to always aim for better then just minimum standards. Not only for pushing for seeking a higher level, but also to account for things such as fatigue, stress, and minor illness.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 29 at 2016 8:49 PM

2016-03-29T20:49:01-04:00

Yes I think a CSM can. We are not about the minimum we should always strive for a 300 +. Even if we don't make a 300 it should not be the minimum. You are in a very competive field. NCO's are the backbone

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 30 at 2016 1:02 PM

2016-03-30T13:02:56-04:00

no he cannot i ran into a similar situation here at hood he can say hey lets push your school date back or talk to you about other options like extra pt till your class date but he cannot remove you because you did not make 70% in each even I got it that what you should strive for but no. The proper guidance would be to get with the soldiers first line and come up with a physical training Plan to improve the soldiers PT Score and help the soldier achieve that goal

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 7 at 2016 11:40 AM

2016-04-07T11:40:53-04:00

CSM Bennett is all over it!

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 8 at 2016 6:12 PM

2016-04-08T18:12:52-04:00

I think so but it's not usually done

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 14 at 2016 1:42 AM

2016-05-14T01:42:24-04:00

Quite often I see 60% in each event on the APFT touted as the Army "Standard", and that couldn't be further from the truth. The Army MINIMUM is 60 in each event. I've seen Soldiers sent home from NCOES schools for being a couple pushups shy of the minimum or a few seconds slow on the run. If you flirt with the minimums, your going to get burned - whether it's from jet lag, your body not adjusting to a different climate, or the grader doing it by the book.
From Montana, we incur very expensive travel costs to attend schools. With the limited budgets we have been dealing with, Units simply can't afford to have a Soldier waste a seat by failing something as simple as the APFT. The CSM would not be doing his job if he didn't put measures in place to ensure all Soldiers are able to exceed the course standards. If the CSM asks for 70, give him 80 and drive on.

Response by CPL(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 21 at 2016 10:27 PM

2016-09-21T22:27:43-04:00

No. While it may be a section/platoon standard, as long as you meet the Army Standard of 60 points in each event, you cannot be denied an NCOES course. With that being said, you can be denied a course such as Air Assault or Airborne.

Response by SGT Joseph Alanzo made Sep 29 at 2016 12:53 PM

2016-09-29T12:53:50-04:00

yes they can??

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 9 at 2017 12:43 PM

2017-04-09T12:43:34-04:00

No you should be able to go. The only way I could see it being justified is if there are only a certain amount of slots for that month and you did not meet the cut based on unit criteria. However even in that situation you still have walk on's and an order of merit list that stacks all those able to go and as slots become available you will be slotted. That being said, I was once a part of a CSM brief that included all of his NCOs and he stated "how dare you add to the army standard when you don't enforce every regulation" at it was an argument that had to do with this subject and sending soldiers to leadership boards or the lack there of because they did not score a 250 or better. The army standard is there for a reason, its not a suggested starting point.

Response by Maj John Bell made Aug 26 at 2018 5:13 AM

2018-08-26T05:13:40-04:00

All things being equal, except PT scores, who should go; the candidate that just makes the grade, or the one who exceeds the standard by a wide margin? It is NEVER about an individual's career. It is ALWAYS about the good of the service.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 26 at 2018 12:00 PM

2018-08-26T12:00:51-04:00

Maybe we should let the minimum paraformers be allowed to attend the school they desire. I think they should take an APFT at the school, and if they fail it, they pay for the TDY cost and flight cost. That is how you incentivize soldiers who have the goal of minimum standards. They pay$$$. Then they will tell you ready....and us taxpayers will not be paying for their low standards and silly games. If the soldier says they are ready....they can put their paycheck on the line. No Article 15, no trial, just a recovery of funds.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 26 at 2018 2:23 PM

2018-08-26T14:23:24-04:00

What type of soldier strives to achieve just the bottom of the standard? Who would follow a leader who can just barely achieve the standards?

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 26 at 2018 2:26 PM

2018-08-26T14:26:12-04:00

I had Marines require NCOs to sleep outside if they could not hit 90% on their PFT.....we had one CPL that was a fat boy and his shelter half was in the quad. He was kicked out shortly there after. Our unit had high standards.

Response by SSgt GG-15 RET Jim Lint made Aug 26 at 2018 2:27 PM

2018-08-26T14:27:01-04:00

Does anyone know if JSOC is going to lower the standard for people over 55 years old and walk with a can....can I still pass the PT test?

Response by SPC Mike Davis made Aug 29 at 2018 7:54 AM

2018-08-29T07:54:42-04:00

Tell the officer you are a girl. Good to go!!!!

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 12:32 AM

2019-08-22T00:32:50-04:00

We've had plenty of soldiers dropped from the list to leave for classes because they failed to meet the 70%. Most of which also failed to meet 60%. When you failed at the school you go home same day. And anyone wanting to become an NCO or progress their career shouldn't worry about minimums, they should worry about what they can achieve. What is their limit and what will it take to surpass? We don't become SGTs from just existing and meeting standards aka "minimums," we do better than that. We stand out among the rest. That mentality is why also in the schools you want to study, practice, so you can exceed course expectations. And we don't becomes CMSs and COLs through minimums as well.
How competitive schools are too they want to send someone who gives a damn enough to do better than everyone else.
This is an old post but it is a timeless topic. We have too great a focus on minimums being expectations and therefore worthy of an attaboy and awards/recognition. We need our leaders to inheritantly want to do more and be better. And PS we halt our own career through our own actions, whether we fail to do or don't do something. If you try your best and they don't try for you, then complain up the chain.

Response by SFC Ernest Thurston made Aug 31 at 2019 11:51 AM

2019-08-31T11:51:37-04:00

I know many unit give diagnostic PT test to people slated for any school. Most of them either require a higher standard like 80% or they have the graders use a more strict standard. This is not to punish a soldier. It's to make sure they are prepared to meet the school standard. There is nothing more demoralizing then going to a school and doing the duffle bag drag because you can't do the minimum Army standard for PT it also reflects badly on the home unit leadership from Squad Leader to CSM. A soldier is supposed to be able to always pass a PT test, not just on the day of the APFT day.

Response by SFC Melvin Brandenburg made Feb 18 at 2021 8:23 AM

2021-02-18T08:23:42-05:00

Yes

Response by SSG Robert Perrotto made Feb 18 at 2021 8:26 AM

2021-02-18T08:26:11-05:00

Yes. Anything under a 70 is borderline, and would be setting you up for failure, which has serious repercussions, if they sent you.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 18 at 2021 12:48 PM

2021-02-18T12:48:09-05:00

If someone gets an ATTRS reservation - you can't just defer it because your SGM doesn't like that you got the minimum passing on a PT test. In fact, that's pretty ridiculous to try to get a deferment for that reason. I had to defer SLC 3 times because my daughter had serious medical issues. I came up on QMP because of it but got that waived after I explained "Hey here's how serious it is." I was planning to go when she was on dialysis because I had to get it done. Luckily she got a transplant - I left her 2 months after the transplant to go to SLC.

But if some CSM wanted to put my career on hold about minimum PT score? Fuck that.

Plus it's not as easy as a CSM thinks it is to defer someone:

All requests for deletion, deferment, or early arrival must be submitted through the Enlisted Distribution and Assignment (EDAS) in accordance with applicable guidance, with the exception of requests based on operational or compassionate needs.

All requests will be submitted within 30 calendar days of the EDAS cycle date or as soon as the determination is made that a deletion, deferment, or early arrival may be required. Requests submitted after 30 calendar days due to unforeseen circumstances will not be rejected, however, they must include an explanation of the circumstances causing the late submission. Supporting documentation (for example profile, court documents) must be emailed to [login to see] in addition to the EDAS request.

Operational deletion or deferment is defined as a request based on the needs of the losing command (to include projected, scheduled, or current deployment). Additional examples of operational needs include (but are not limited to) training, strength, special skills, etc.

An operational request for deletion or deferment will not be submitted via EDAS. These requests will be addressed to Commanding General, US Army Human Resources Command, ATTN: AHRC-EPO-P, 1600 Spearhead Division Ave, Fort Knox, KY 40122-5303 and will be emailed to [login to see] . Include "Operational Deletion or Deferment" in the email title to ensure the email is directed to the appropriate action officer. The request must be endorsed by the first Colonel/O6 in the chain of command and installation G-1 or strength manager responsible for that DML/DMSL and will only be submitted to USAHRC if the recommendation is to approve.