Can a CSM prohibit a SGT from establishing joint domicile?

SSG Kristell Lee — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 04:22:00 -0400

Me and my husband (also a SGT) came to South Korea on Command Sponsored orders for our son (me) and Joint Domicile orders (him). While my company has been extremely supportive to accommodate our needs, his unit is telling him that he is going to have to stay in the barracks the next 2 years (at Suwon Air Base) and come visit us during the weekend (we are at Humphreys), and they are telling him they won't give him the closest base to us (Osan). They are not letting him come see us or stay with us during the next 3 weeks either (in processing). I thought the whole purpose of joint domicile was to have dual military live together. I get the in processing part but can they really make him stay in the Bs even tho his unit's post is within 50mi from mine? Why leadership sometimes feels the need to mess with Soldiers just because they feel like it?

Update: Thank you to all that replied. To answer some of the questions, my husband is Army, 14T ADA, and he could be stationed in Osan. We were successful at establishing our joint domicile. Once my husband respectfully told his CSM that he was going to reach IG and legal the CSM had a change of heart and stationed him in Osan. Thank you for all your advice!

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 4:43 AM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 04:43:52 -0400

I am not sure how the Army works. But I would suspect that if it is on approved orders than in theory the answer should be no. I would go and top cover above the E-9. Typically these decisions can only be reversed by the commanding officer. In which case they will have to amend orders. My understanding if it is a joint tour than it should be honored. I have the feeling that his CSM is assuming authority he does not have. But I will concede to your Army counterparts. Orders are orders and last I checked it takes an officer with G series authority to reverse or modify them.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 4 at 2014 11:49 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 04 Oct 2014 11:49:28 -0400

they are not honoring what joint domicile is, which is when married couples wish to establish a common household.
if his MOS is available on OSAN then his command should be able to move him there.
Try to see if he can request permissive intratheater reassignment for the purpose of establishing a joint domicile, as per his orders say. Anything is possible if you talk to the right people. Unless his command has given him solid concrete reasons why this cannot happen, then I think its laziness and incompetence on their end. They should do all that they can to take care of the Soldiers. I would get this moving ASAP. He needs to do a lot of the leg work if no one over there is helping him out. Which is finding out the policies and procedures for getting him transferred closer to you or to get his unit to honor his PCS orders to include establishing a common household.

Response by SSG Richard Stevens made Apr 5 at 2016 7:23 AM

SSG Richard Stevens — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:23:50 -0400

When I was in back in the 80s there were, CSMs and Commanders, like that. I would talk too a Jag officer adout that.

Response by CSM James Winslow made Apr 5 at 2016 7:49 AM

CSM James Winslow — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:49:54 -0400

A CSM cannot prohibit your having a Joint Domicile. Only the Commander can, and if the orders are published by HRC (which most orders like that are), and neither you or your husband have an MOS critical to the command, it should be no problem to grant you joint domicile. There are circumstances that can affect living together, but "Because I said so" is not one of them. Go to your local Inspector General office and outline your problem to them. They are the ones who can fix this, and if they cannot, they will at least find out why the local commander is violating DA orders.

Response by SGT Jason Hartnett made Apr 5 at 2016 7:52 AM

SGT Jason Hartnett — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 07:52:15 -0400

Well I Agee with the others. Joint domicile is just that. Joint. I would also go to JAG and contest his commands orders.

Response by CSM Guy R. Niles made Apr 5 at 2016 8:01 AM

CSM Guy R. Niles — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:01:06 -0400

A Flat refusal by any CSM is not the end. Only the Commander can definitively state Yea or Nay. Many variables (data) missing here. Husband, Army or Air Force? Critical MOS? Etc.....!? I would press through both Chains of Command, be prepared to address with IG. Something does not smell right here.

Response by SSG Dale London made Apr 5 at 2016 8:33 AM

SSG Dale London — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:33:02 -0400

No. The CSM does not have the authority to override DA orders. That being said, he or she can make life absolutely miserable. This situation seems very unfair but if the CSM plays completely by the rules you can reckon on a long and very unpleasant fight that will likely result in an unfavorable endorsement on your husband's next (possibly several) NCOER -- effecting
his prospects for SFC, ANCOC, Sgt Majors' Academy, etc.
I really feel for you in this. Please be aware that, however just your cause may be, a recalcitrant CSM can really ruin your day and you will have little or no recourse.
I expect that, so long as neither of you are in a critical MOS, you will eventually get joint domicile. That said, and speaking from experience, if this CSM is (as appears) a curmudgeon, or your contesting of his/her orders is not done just right, your husband's career will be badly tainted.
I wish you luck.

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 8:37 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 08:37:12 -0400

I think he can make him stay on base.It is not an open base like some of the others.
If you have to have a passto leave base then yes he can.

Response by SGT James Sedlacek made Apr 5 at 2016 9:25 AM

SGT James Sedlacek — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 09:25:41 -0400

This is just a guess.... It seems his orders and his base type are in conflict with each other. It seems the CSM is trying to follow the base guidelines for that base, while the MOS branch awarded something that doesn't work for that base. The problem appears to be with the unit assignment not being compatible with the orders, (either in base type - no "off post" privileges, or its distance away from yours - 50 mile radius is a long distance for 100% alerts to handle) in which case a unit reassignment for him is appropriate to match his orders. A CSM operates in accordance with what orders he or she is given, whether that be base commander's policy, or threat-con level, or deploy-ability status of the unit in question (One of these seems likeliest). A CSM can use some discretion whenever a specific skilled task is highly needed, or when a soldier has been in trouble (It doesn't sound like these are the problem here). Privileges (like leaving post) can be revoked for many reasons.
If reassignment is best, and that base/unit won't do it, you gotta go higher - maybe 8th Army HQ. When I was there, I was offered a similar assignment, where my wife and kids would live off-post and I could visit every other weekend. The orders simply allowed for moving costs and for her to live in country - it didn't give me visiting privileges. Those came from my unit. For the unit I was in, we were all locked down for rapid-deployment 12 days in a row with 2 off following that. The C-of-C wasn't going to deal with people off post trying to get on post every time the whistle blew. But I was in infantry and further north. The only way for me to get better privileges would have been to have been stationed further south at a "friendlier" base.
Another possibility is that the post he is at is not used to orders of this type, and may not know what to do with them. If he is in-processing still, he may be getting conflicting information. His actual First Sergeant or C.O. at his destination unit will be the ones to award "off post" privileges. Even in my unit, I knew several persons who the C.O. allowed to live "off post" as long as they kept their nose clean - no trouble with M.P.'s, no missing mandatory stuff, always made it to alert formation on time, etc.

Response by SSG Timothy McCoy made Apr 5 at 2016 10:09 AM

SSG Timothy McCoy — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:09:49 -0400

SGT(P) Kriss Lee,
I must agree with CSM Guy R. Niles, above, there is a rat smell here somewhere.
Rant, rave, and Vent only face to face and behind closed doors. Please, please, both of you stay professional, respectful and document everything. You can't build a Bon fire with hear say or he said she said. Copy all posted roosters DA Form 6 and the AF equivalents.
Please remember 3 very important things here;
1) Your son. Y'all are doing this for him to be raised by a loving M&D working TOGETHER.
2) Yous 2 is young and resilient and can do anything to include standing on your heads for 2 years.
3) This is NOT permanent, this is not static, time is fluid. The CSM could PCS before your tour is up.
This is a training event, that may help either one of you when y'all are CSMs. This to shall pass.
Remember what Dory kinda said in "Finding Nemo" " ... Keep on Smilin' keep on smilin'".
And stay away from the Jinro Soju.
Tim

Response by 1SG Brian Adams made Apr 5 at 2016 10:15 AM

1SG Brian Adams — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:15:14 -0400

Negative, talk with a commisioned field grade Officer. CSM being the senior NCO of the unit, has no legal say so. Being an E-5, by going above the CSMs head, may not bode well for you. However, in the grand scheme of things, you may accomplish your family goal. Korea has always been a delicate area as far as families PCSing there....Good luck!

Response by CPL Bryan Claeys made Apr 5 at 2016 10:35 AM

CPL Bryan Claeys — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:35:18 -0400

I'm not familiar in the slightest with joint domicile but unless your husband is facing some kind of formal punishment (i.e. an article 15) I wouldn't think that a CSM could override orders of where he can reside. But like I said I am not familiar with joint domicile in the slightest.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Apr 5 at 2016 10:48 AM

SSG Richard Reilly — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 10:48:11 -0400

Needs of the Army.

Response by MSG Jimmie Mark made Apr 5 at 2016 11:05 AM

MSG Jimmie Mark — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:05:03 -0400

The CSM can't prohibit joint domicile, but you could get with your CSM to see if he could talk with your husbands CSM to see if they can get him assigned to a unit on Camp Humphreys.

Response by COL Jean (John) F. B. made Apr 5 at 2016 11:12 AM

COL Jean (John) F. B. — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:12:10 -0400

SSG Kristell Lee The short answer is that, yes, personnel can be required to live separately even if on joint domicile orders, based on the needs of the command. I am certainly not saying that I agree with what is happening to you and your husband, but, it is authorized and quite common in Korea, at least when I was the Military Police brigade commander there.

Soldiers assigned to certain areas (primarily in the 2ID forward areas) are required to live on post (no family housing), even if their family members are in Korea. The joint domicile put you both in Korea, not necessarily the same installation or unit. Many officers and NCOs, for example, lived at Camp Red Cloud in the 2ID area, while their family members lived in Yongsan (Seoul), to include general officers, brigade commanders, CSMs, etc.

I always tried my best to accommodate joint military couples to get them as close to each other as possible. Typically, only one was assigned to my unit and I found that I was more willing to accommodate it than many other commanders. It was easier to do if there were no kids in the mix (due to schools, etc.) and it was not always possible to get them on the same installation.

I would have a problem, as a commander, having one of my NCOs residing 50 miles away from the unit/installation he/she was assigned to, especially in Korea.

Seems to me that your best bet is to get your commander/CSM involved to see if they can assist you by talking to your husband's unit commander/CSM. In addition, your husband should be doing the same thing with his chain of command. Unless one or both of you are in very specialized MOS' with very limited slots in specific locations, I can't imagine something cannot be worked out to get you two closer together, even if it means reassigning one of you to a different unit.

Good luck...

Response by SFC Phillip Wiley made Apr 5 at 2016 11:12 AM

SFC Phillip Wiley — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 11:12:28 -0400

See References.
a. AR 614-100, Officer Assignment Policies, Details and Transfers
b. AR 614-30, Overseas Service

Always find out the regulations that cover your issues. The CSM must have a reason I would suggest an open door policy and find out his reasoning. Is your husbands MOS - critical response time etc.
Would guess your husband is Airforce if he is in Suwon. Moving around in Korea can take much longer than in most places in the world. I would wager by metro / taxi your looking at around 1:15-1:45 travel time from one location to the next, just travel from Osan to Suwon is 45-55 min.
But I digress, the CSM can make his recommendation but is not the absolute answer. the commander has that honor. And even then you can challenge the decision and escalate for review through chain of command, and file an IG complaint if you feel you are being stone walled.
The 3 weeks for in processing seems a bit extensive (unless he is in a critical position) but not unheard of for crossover training etc.

Response by CSM Robert J. "Bob" Parr, RD made Apr 5 at 2016 12:34 PM

CSM Robert J. "Bob" Parr, RD — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:34:35 -0400

This sounds like the unit leadership is not explaining what is going on. Communication is essentail in an effective unit.

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Apr 5 at 2016 12:54 PM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:54:43 -0400

Sgt. The CSM can not over orders

Response by SGT Jamison Calloway made Apr 5 at 2016 12:58 PM

SGT Jamison Calloway — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 12:58:42 -0400

Joint domicile is just that joint domicile. But depending on unit needs could be and exception.. Highly unlikely.

Response by MSG Eddie N. made Apr 5 at 2016 1:18 PM

MSG Eddie N. — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:18:32 -0400

Anyone notice that this was posted a year and a half ago? What was the final outcome?

Response by SGM Robin Johnson made Apr 5 at 2016 1:31 PM

SGM Robin Johnson — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:31:36 -0400

AR 614-30, Overseas Service, para 4-4 (joint domicile of married Army couples), and AR 614-200, Enlisted Assignments and Utilization Management, Section IV (Married Army Couples Program), Para 5-20 through 5-22, cover your assignment criteria and process; make sure you are familiar with these regulations when you go talk to people about this issue so you are on firm ground when discussing what "should" or "shouldn't" be happening. There are a couple of points about the regulations that lead to confusion. The regulations state that the Army will attempt to station married couples to the same geographic area when possible. Some leaders stop reading there, and state that the Army got you to the same area, and that is as far as the MACP gets you. They also will stress that the Army only states they will ATTEMPT that. However, the regulations further state that the purpose is (as you pointed out) to establish a joint domicile - to live together. And while the Married Army Couples PROGRAM (MACP) attempts to get couples to the same area even if they can't establish a joint domicile (plenty of Soldiers with Ft Hood/Ft Sam Houston marriages attest to that), when a Joint Domicile JD) assignment IS established, it is done for the express purpose of the couple creating a joint domicile (again, living together.) For this purpose, the regulation defines the distance and time requirements (50 miles or one hour commute). For your situation, it is important to note that prior to issuing JD orders, HRC determined you were eligible for those orders using the criteria of AR 614-200, para 5-22j. One of the criteria is that the gaining command determined a common household could be established (see AR 614-200, para 5-22j(2).)

In other words, your unit and your husband's unit told HRC that they could accommodate the two of you living together prior to the orders being issued. Realistically, the personnel section of the highest level headquarters on peninsula for your units probably made that determination and forwarded the information through 8th Army, but someone in the chain of command signed off on that. If they did not agree that those determinations could be made without the CSM's input, the authority to do so shouldn't have been delegated. In any case, that criteria was able to be met - and communicated to HRC, resulting in the two of you being issued JD orders (with accompanied tour lengths.) If that hadn't been the case you would have been given the option of making other arrangements for the tour (one of you going unaccompanied for a year, or leaving your child with relatives and both of you going unaccompanied for a year) since you wouldn't be living together anyway. Their assurances resulted in your decision to take an accompanied tour with your husband also taking an accompanied tour, meaning two years overseas, and now you are told you will not live together for two years.

So go see your chain of command, who have been supportive, and enlist your CSM to help you with this. If he or she cannot work with your husband's unit to fix this, at least your CSM will know why you have to go to the IG, so it won't be a surprise (CSMs HATE those kinds of surprises.) But go to the IG if you must. Although the needs of the Army will come first (if it is absolutely necessary for mission accomplishment, this may not be able to be fixed, but if that is the case your husband is one very important young SGT), your assignment instructions should be honored. By the way, did he go to where he was intended? Or were you both sent to the reception station first and then your husband was sent to his unit (in which case he may have been diverted to a unit other than his intended assignment, which should be an easier fix)?

By the way, if you are in the Army and your husband is in the Air Force, there is no program for the services to work together, at this time. Dual-service couples must work this out assignment-by-assignment and there are no regulations or rules. Hopefully, though, someone would have explained this to you by now and you would have included this relevant information in your question.

Best of luck.

Response by SFC Donnie Phillips made Apr 5 at 2016 1:34 PM

SFC Donnie Phillips — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:34:00 -0400

I can't believe that the people in the Army are still playing silly games. What sens does it make for a SGT in the US Army to stay in the barracks while Joint domicile? If I was in that situation, I would take it over his head, that's foolishness... What if the roles were reversed and it was the SGM's? I bet he wouldn't want to stay in the barracks!!!! Smh... Silliness...

Response by SFC Donnie Phillips made Apr 5 at 2016 1:34 PM

SFC Donnie Phillips — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 13:34:37 -0400

STRAIGHT FOOLISHNESS...

Response by PFC Charles Sanders made Apr 5 at 2016 3:57 PM

PFC Charles Sanders — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 15:57:34 -0400

50 miles in Korea is a lot different than 50 miles in the US. I think this is more complicated than a paragraph allows.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 5 at 2016 4:55 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 16:55:05 -0400

What was the outcome

Response by SFC David Pope, MBA made Apr 5 at 2016 5:11 PM

SFC David Pope, MBA — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 17:11:11 -0400

The biggest issue I see here is that you and your husband are in separate branches of service. If that's the case, and your husband is AF, he is limited where he can go. Are both or one of you in a critical MOS? That would determine what the long answer would be, short answer see IG.

Response by SGM Joel Cook made Apr 5 at 2016 7:40 PM

SGM Joel Cook — Tue, 05 Apr 2016 19:40:44 -0400

The short simple answer is no! A CSM is not a commander, therefore he has no command authority. The more complex answer is that the CSM is the Senior Enlisted Advisor to the Commander. Therefore the CSM and Commander have a talk about your husband's mission and needs of the Army and needs of the soldier and soldier's family. The Commander gives command approval to CSM's mission assessment of what the unit needs your husband to do and CSM passes that on to your husband without ever mentioning that CSM has been given command approval from Commander, because that is the CSM's duty. If you press this issue you will enrage the chain of command of your husband's unit and they will make his life hell for the time he has to spend in Korea. If you feel you are alone, don't , as many soldiers go through this same ordeal, I was promised a Command Sponsered slot in 2 ID as a SGM that the unit reneged on once I reported to the unit. I reported without my wife and children as school was not out yet. Another soldier reported in the same month with his unauthorized spouse and they gave my slot to him to keep him from having to send his wife back to the states. Shit happens sometimes, especially in 2 ID when the spouse is in Eighth US Army or elsewhere. If you want to end your husband's career by pressing the envelope you can talk to the Inspector General or do a Congressional Inquiry. Just be very aware of the possible consequences.

Response by 1SG Steve Eachus made Apr 6 at 2016 6:10 AM

1SG Steve Eachus — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 06:10:28 -0400

Abusive CSM is all, way to get it right!

Response by 1SG Larry Cole, EMBA/MBA/MS made Apr 6 at 2016 8:04 AM

1SG Larry Cole, EMBA/MBA/MS — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:04:36 -0400

Glad to hear that things have worked out for you and your family. Rules and regulations are there for a reason not for someone to interrupt how they feel about a situation. Enjoy Korea.

Response by SSG Timothy McCoy made Apr 6 at 2016 8:52 AM

SSG Timothy McCoy — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 08:52:28 -0400

SGT(P) Kriss Lee,
Woot, woot.
I totally agree with 1SG Larry Cole, EMBA/MBA/MS, how things have worked out.
Happy dancing all around.
As an old Msl Maggot, remind that "Duck Hunter", that the mighty, mighty Oogal Finch, Mr. Riot, Pat is always looking out for it's fan club.
HtH
Tim

Response by SSG Don Maggart made Apr 6 at 2016 10:06 AM

SSG Don Maggart — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 10:06:09 -0400

There was always a Credo when asked a Question by a Senior NCO or Officer...I do not know the Answer but I will study the matter and get back to you...MilitantCrip

Response by CSM Tee Oden made Apr 6 at 2016 11:18 AM

CSM Tee Oden — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 11:18:26 -0400

A darn shame!!! Take care of the soldier. That's our job!!!!!!!!! I'm glad things worked out.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 5:32 PM

SFC Siva Williams — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:32:54 -0400

Sounds like your husband is in a Patriot unit. I am not sure if they have barracks for the batteries on Osan. I was in the unit that took Patriot to the peninsula over 20 years ago. We had crew rooms for the crews on duty that day. The batteries that cover Osan and Suwon lived on Suwon AB. It was more cost effective to keep the life support foot print small on Osan (20 or so troops versus close to 90). That is probably why the BN CSM is saying that your husband will have to stay at Suwon and visit on the weekend. The big question is what is the pass policy in area three? If it is liberal with overnight passes in effect for everyone then your husband can just take the train or drive back and forth. Suwon and Osan aren't that far apart. The big obstacle is traffic. I'd find out if the units protecting Osan have barracks space for hot crews or if entire batteries are living on Osan. I believe it is former versus the latter. It makes command and control a bit easier. It could be worse. The BN CSM could have S-1 send your husband to Kunson AB.

Response by SFC Siva Williams made Apr 6 at 2016 5:39 PM

SFC Siva Williams — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 17:39:10 -0400

Glad it worked out. Good money says the PSNCO didn't bother to inform the CSM of all of the details regarding your joint domicile. I would like to believe that he thought you two were sent to Korea together and that 8th Army would figure out the rest and didn't realize that your joint domicile orders were squared away at DA level. Hopefully he didn't generate any bad blood with the CSM. That unit has two batteries in Kunson. I would hate for him to get sent there.

Response by SGT Mark Rhodes made Apr 6 at 2016 7:36 PM

SGT Mark Rhodes — Wed, 06 Apr 2016 19:36:31 -0400

Outstanding Sgt Kriss Lee, I'm a little late but that was going to be my advice too.

Response by SFC Ralph E Kelley made Apr 7 at 2016 8:29 AM

SFC Ralph E Kelley — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 08:29:24 -0400

Special circumstances are required but its not up to the CSM. Any CSM is the enlistedman's advocate. Is either spiuse in the 2nd Inf Divison? Different regulations apply to soldiers posted in potential hostile fire zones even if its not a 'hot war'.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made Apr 7 at 2016 11:54 AM

1SG Patrick Sims — Thu, 07 Apr 2016 11:54:33 -0400

Its a great pity it takes the threat of an IG investigation to change the mind of a CSM who has developed a God complex-----another reason why I turned down CSM slot and remained a 1st Sergeant----I didn't have much use for the people who gravitated to staff positions.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2016 11:27 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 19 Apr 2016 11:27:21 -0400

It's been a few years since I was in Korea, but it happened to my wife and I. Although we had command sponsorship orders and we're both authorized to reside off post, my CSM didn't think it was a good idea for two SPC to have that freedom. He was able to hold our car at port, and have my household goods converted from transportation to storage. We were placed in the barracks in separate, but joining, barracks rooms. Ironically, the next command team wanted the barracks space and forced us to move off post. We never got our car our household goods shipped, but we were allowed to buy a beater and drive. I tried to fight the CSM, but legal supported his decision at that time and so did the theater command team.

Response by CSM Guy R. Niles made Apr 21 at 2016 1:21 PM

CSM Guy R. Niles — Thu, 21 Apr 2016 13:21:06 -0400

Excellent! No one is above the Laws, Rules and Regulations. Glad it worked out!

Response by SGT Jay Ehrenfeld made Apr 30 at 2016 2:12 PM

SGT Jay Ehrenfeld — Sat, 30 Apr 2016 14:12:28 -0400

Sgt. The CSM knew he was wrong when threatening with I.G. he knew he going let happen but make your husband dot his I and cross his T's and make makes notes what he did for the day because that CSM have cross-eyed on ur husband back side.
Good luck sgt.