Can a junior enlisted soldier deny corrective action if it is going to be wrongfully used?

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 01:26:24 -0500

Can a junior enlisted soldier deny corrective action if it is going to be wrongfully used. In my cases I was told by a SFC that I did not have to participate in doing something because I had already done my part and I had just finished a 4 hour guard duty. Then a lower ranking NCO precisted on trying to make me do it when I denied I was I immediately told to do corrective action instead of being asked why I was refusing. Now I’m being negatively counseled and/or further action and I am looking for anything that can help state my case I have no problem with doing what I’m told I just have a problem with being giving wrongful corrective action.

Response by Maj John Bell made Mar 5 at 2018 2:34 AM

Maj John Bell — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 02:34:55 -0500

If the SFC is in your chain of command, what he says takes precedent, and you should refer the NCO to the SFC. If the SFC isn't in your chain of command and the lower ranking NCO is, do what the NCO in your chain of command told you to do, then explain.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2018 6:15 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 06:15:07 -0500

There is a place in your counseling where you say whether you agree with the course of action under "Session Closing." Select that you do not and explain why. This will be forwarded at least to your SFC (if he is in chain) and will serve both as a learning opportunity for the junior NCO and yourself.

Keep in mind it is always best to follow the last order given and, after accepting and acknowledging, attempt to explain why. Many junior NCOs and Officers have not yet developed the leadership ability to respond to "No" from a subordinate. Just remember it's your job to be polite and professional while following the Army Values and in this case, your General Orders (if related to guard duty)

Response by CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2018 8:41 AM

CWO3 Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 08:41:12 -0500

Carry out your last order first, unless it is an unlawful one or someone senior has countermanded it.

Edit: Learn from mistakes, both yours and those of others. If you are an NCO you will remember this and know what to/not to do. The NCO undercut the authority of a SFC and that was wrong unless lives were at stake. He should be getting a one way conversation from the SFC so he learns too. That's assuming the SFC was in your Chain of Command or was filling a billet that gave him the authority to excuse you.

It gets trickier when seniors from other units order folks not in their unit. Technically they have the authority due to seniority, but unless he has spoken with your counterpart leader - one SFC to another, he has a lot of explaining to do to your SFC. Unless you have been appointed over another unit, you don't interfere except in extreme situations. That's how folks get black eyes, if you have strong leadership. You don't feed another man's dogs or discipline his kids unless the situation warrants or he asks you to. At your level you carry out your last order and notify your CofC later.

Response by SGT Eric Davis made Mar 5 at 2018 8:45 AM

SGT Eric Davis — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 08:45:24 -0500

Before I read your statement I was about to write my post but I concur; if the NCO Gave you the last direct order you are to follow it. If it don’t mess with your morals or put you in harms way you are to follow the last orders. Even if the E7 is in your chain of command the last direct order was given to you by a NCO in your chain of command so you was wrong and deserve the counseling.

Now could the communications been messed up between then two and one didn’t tell tel the other one you are relieved from the participation. Then they need to fix that but you was wrong! You can not ageee with then counseling but you didn’t follow an order and it could get worse! @pfc

Response by PFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2018 9:39 AM

PFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:39:35 -0500

Appreciate it.

Response by MSG Dan Castaneda made Mar 5 at 2018 9:47 AM

MSG Dan Castaneda — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 09:47:07 -0500

As a senior NCO if I told you to do something and one of my team leaders told you to do something different than what I had just told you, I would support the decision of what the team leader told you to do. If I heard you questioned him, or used me as an excuse, I would smoke you too. Being a private is the easiest job in the Army. Do what your told. I don't care if you think you've done your part. Keep doing it until someone with some strips whether it be two or six tells you other wise.

Response by SPC David Willis made Mar 5 at 2018 1:52 PM

SPC David Willis — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 13:52:39 -0500

I learned this lesson the painful way although thankfully there was no paper work. If its lawful always do it, the only time you should question an order is if it directly counteracts what their superior said. For instance SFC Smith says take a water jug to range 12 and on the way SGT Williams says take the jug to range 6. You can say "SGT Williams, SFC Smith told me to take it to 12". He would probably tell you to carry on and take it to 12, but if he says take it to 6 just do as he said because now that decision is on him.

Response by CSM Eric Biggs made Mar 5 at 2018 1:55 PM

CSM Eric Biggs — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 13:55:05 -0500

No you cannot deny (refuse) corrective action, nor do you get a say in whether or not you think it is going to be wrongfully used.
You are a PFC, you get paid to do what your told by anyone who outranks you; whether its another PFC with 1 day more TIS or TIG than you, or a cherry LT, or the CSM of the Army. It doesn’t matter.
The correct answer to your original problem would have been to do what the lower ranking NCO told you to do, without any bitching or arguing. Then after that NCO was done with you address the issue with the SFC who gave you original order.
The only time you can refuse to do what you are being told to do by anyone, is when it is an unlawful order. Basically the only time that applies is when the unlawful order you are given is against the law.

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2018 4:22 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 16:22:36 -0500

It’s the military. Do what your told by a superior, any superior unless it is against regulations, illegal or clearly immoral. Follow Orders and seek out clarification later.

Response by SGM Bill Frazer made Mar 6 at 2018 11:49 AM

SGM Bill Frazer — Tue, 06 Mar 2018 11:49:56 -0500

So in Your mind it is wrongful corrective action. Seeing as how guard is normally 24 hours, broken up into shifts- then you were still part of the guard force. Did it occur to you that instead telling an NCO "I don't have to do that", you might have said "SFC so-in-so said I had already done my share" Also was your "share" enough or did the folks who were "sharing" get pulled to do something else, leaving a manpower gap? Counseling statements aren't the end of the world provided the good outweigh the bad, further action makes it seem that you stepped over the line when talking to the NCO. Instead of thinking Your are the Boss, you should have either found the SFC and had him intercede, or go do what you were told to do, and then found the SFC for clarification- NOT ARGUE!!!!!

Response by 1SG Bill Farmerie made Mar 11 at 2018 7:35 PM

1SG Bill Farmerie — Sun, 11 Mar 2018 19:35:06 -0400

Did you talk to the NCO and explain what the SFC said? Or did you just refuse? This is when a little curtesy and military bearing would have definitely come into play. Most young soldiers just quickly refuse because they think they are in the right.

Response by SGT Tom Recupero made Mar 12 at 2018 4:52 PM

SGT Tom Recupero — Mon, 12 Mar 2018 16:52:53 -0400

Unless they are telling you to break a profile, or something inappropriate and or sexual then you basically have to do anything they say.

Response by CW3 Kevin Storm made Jun 12 at 2018 7:07 PM

CW3 Kevin Storm — Tue, 12 Jun 2018 19:07:05 -0400

The SFC should step up to the plate and clear this, and that should put an end to it.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 17 at 2019 5:23 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 17 May 2019 05:23:07 -0400

You will learn as a specialist how to hide correctly so this doesn't happen again.
alternatively, there was nothing stopping you from texting your team leader and telling him what the SFC told you.
"Hey Sgt, SFC just told me i can skip this thing going on because I just got off shift, can I take off, or do you want me to show up?"
When you say this, you are not only giving your team leader SA on you, which he needs as you are a private, you are also showing him you respect his authority as your team leader. You are also showing professionalism and initiative. I think most good team leaders would respect that and cut you some slack unless he really needed you there for some reason. That being said, you also have insurance because if someone above your team leader asks where you are, he has an answer and can vouch for you. You also have insurance in case someone else asks you why you are at the PX and not where you were originally supposed to be. "Yes sir/sgt, I have permission, Yes sir/sgt I my team leader knows where I am. Yes sir/sgt I have proof."
Always remember, text first, then call. that way you have a paper trail.