Can a leader make you show early without showing themselves?

2022-09-28T21:01:31-04:00

A soldier receives a counseling after being late saying they have to show 30m earlier to all hit times for the next 30 days. Leader doesnt show up themselves instead has the soldier show photographic evidence showing they are in the right place and right time. Is this legal?

Response by MSG Gary Eckert made Sep 28 at 2022 9:08 PM

2022-09-28T21:08:45-04:00

Legal. Yes. Being at your appointed place of duty isn’t dependent on the whereabouts of leadership. With the little bit of information, it is probably an example of poor leadership.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2022 9:10 PM

2022-09-28T21:10:07-04:00

if it was an order... yes... however you want to check with those with more current experience...
Contact one of these three gentlemen... they are very knowledgeable in Military related questions/issues.

Response by SGM Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2022 9:41 PM

2022-09-28T21:41:41-04:00

I really hope RP offers some kind of prize to the 10,000th poster who asks if some inconvenient or unpleasant order or policy is "illegal".

Yes the order is legal, moral and ethical.
Would it be better leadership by example if that leader also hung out with with the Soldier for those 30 minutes prior to everything?
Maybe. But would that be the best use of that leader's time?
Probably not: that leader likely has more total and more important tasks than the Soldier, and the unit counting on him to get those done shouldn't have to suffer to teach one Soldier the lesson of being at the right place at the right time and in the right uniform, which is literally the first and most frequent lesson of BCT, and should be ingrained well before graduating BCT.
And the Soldier might consider himself lucky that he only has to show 30 min early, and not spend those 30 min participating in any "opportunity training" that leader might come up with to make useful time of those 30 min periods throughout the day.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2022 9:49 PM

2022-09-28T21:49:56-04:00

Yes, it's legal. Next time, don't be late.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 28 at 2022 10:00 PM

2022-09-28T22:00:40-04:00

I would suggest not being late!

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Sep 28 at 2022 11:23 PM

2022-09-28T23:23:57-04:00

When you were in BCT, did they teach you, "Do what you're told, when you're told, and how you're told? Well it still applies in the real world. Orders are Orders. If you are receiving a counseling statement for being late, I am guessing you are late more than once, if so, then you need to pull your head out of your third point of contact and get squared away. Remember it is better to be an hour early than a minute late. One time on the trail, I was in the CDR's office. He looked out his window, then ask me, "DS, is that your platoon in formation, it is 15 minutes early?". I looked out the window, seeing the last guy running, other motioning him on. "Yes Sir," I replied, "They are right on time".
Today too many people don't put enough importance in being on time. Alway plan yourself to be early, if something happens, then you have some wiggle room. In the military, time is very important.
Sounds to me that is an order "written in stone", I highly advice you comply.

Response by SPC James Neidig made Sep 29 at 2022 1:44 AM

2022-09-29T01:44:13-04:00

When I Was Very Young, My Korea War Vet Father Taught Me If You Are Supposed To Be Somewhere At Say 0600 And You Show Up At 0545 Your 15 Minutes Late, I Still Hold That Ethics, Today At 61 ,
If You Are Constantly Late Your Telling Your Leadership That You Don’t Care.

Response by SSgt Christophe Murphy made Sep 29 at 2022 7:54 AM

2022-09-29T07:54:43-04:00

It isn't illegal to make a Service member show up 30 minutes early when they have a history of being late. You should already be 15 minutes early anyway so it's not a big ask.

Response by Maj John Bell made Sep 29 at 2022 7:57 AM

2022-09-29T07:57:09-04:00

Think. It's fine to ask this of a respected leader discreetly in private so you become more educated in military culture. It is less than smart to ask the same in a public forum. Don't publicly ask questions that have solutions you don't want put into play.

Is it legal? Absolutely. Is it piss poor leadership? Maybe, you didn't give enough detail to tell for sure.

_How many times has the soldier been late recently?
_Why has the soldier been late?
_Have other punishments been tried and failed to work?
_Other than tardiness, what are the soldier's merits and reputation?
_What is the leader doing while the soldier is 30 minutes early? Sleeping in? Standing duty? Other necessary billet related tasks?

In the Marines, we call the ones who ask questions like yours "sea lawyers." More often than not, they are looking for some way for themselves to escape accountability, or they are malcontents using a barracks buddy's problems to undermine the chain of command. Malcontents are like black mold in the barracks. Sanitize black mold immediately.

There is always another option, NJP. What would be less onerous? 30 days of 30 minutes early with a clean SRB? Or 7 days restriction to quarters, 7 days forfeiture of pay and 7 days of extra-military instruction and a record of official punishment in the SRB?

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Sep 29 at 2022 10:34 AM

2022-09-29T10:34:53-04:00

Seriously? Can your Leader tell you to show up early to teach you a lesson in time management? Of course they can. They should.
I wonder.....is RP considered to be a place to find out how to circumvent simple, logical orders? Can my 1SGT inspect my room or can my team leader make me brush my teeth?? Ridiculous questions.
For all of you fellow old crusty leaders out there, please do not give comfort or shitty advice to these kids. They obviously leave out the details to make their situation seem more unfair. We cannot and should not undermine the leader who is there and does know the details by stating our opinion on what he or she "should have done".
It is not fair to assume "piss poor leadership"and offer up what we would have done better.

Response by A1C Medrick "Rick" DeVaney made Sep 29 at 2022 1:51 PM

2022-09-29T13:51:55-04:00

In The Military, I Have To Admit, "I Really Don't Know"
BUT In Civilian Life, It's a Different Ball Game.
I Worked My Az-off To Make My Businesses Successful.
And, Eventually Hired Others To Manage Them.....Years Later, Of Course.
THEN I Came & Went As I Was Needed & Followed By Doing Whatever I Wanted To.
Most Of The Time I Was Available Of Course, But I Also Worked Many Hours Past Closing,
With Nights And Weekends As Well..
SO, Damned It,. I DESERVED Not Having To Be At Work When I Preferred Doing Something Else... Eventually, I Said "Screw This"; Sold The Business At 56 ~~ 27 YEARS Later;
And Been Retired Ever Sense.
Does This ANSWER, Or HELP Answer Your, Question?

Response by MAJ Byron Oyler made Sep 29 at 2022 10:28 PM

2022-09-29T22:28:25-04:00

You are only starting to learn just how much the US Government owns you. Some days it really sucks, other days you learn how good the government takes care of its property (three hots and cot, medical, gear, etc). Retired and on the first of every month it is $6500 gross for embracing the suck for 24 years. I would do it again. I find this punishment pretty lenient.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Sep 30 at 2022 1:08 AM

2022-09-30T01:08:21-04:00

Well, Yes and anyone that tells you differently is wrong.

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 5 at 2022 4:45 PM

2022-10-05T16:45:28-04:00

There are more facts needed, like what rank is the leader, what is the corrective training policy in your organization. What is the Commands policy regarding reporting and accountability.

Generally speaking if this is corrective training the person who is on the receiving end is reporting to someone. Having a Soldier show up and not having anything corrective occur, other than showing early does not teach or correct much. Every good unit it is generally the responsibility of the leader administering the training to be present themselves and provide said training. Otherwise is is simply a waste of time.

Response by A1C Diane Phillips made Oct 5 at 2022 5:55 PM

2022-10-05T17:55:05-04:00

If it is legal it absolutely should not be legal! A liter should be held to the exact same rules as the soldier! They're not any more important, they're not a higher class than a soldier they should all be considered equals when it comes to rules and regulations!

Response by 1SG Mark Thompson made Oct 6 at 2022 1:17 PM

2022-10-06T13:17:07-04:00

Soldier should be thankful he or she was not given UCMJ for being late.

Response by LTC David Howard made Oct 6 at 2022 2:08 PM

2022-10-06T14:08:45-04:00

I never heard of this practice, but it sounds okay to me. Just because a soldier is given a minor punishment does not require his superior to be punished as well.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 6 at 2022 4:33 PM

2022-10-06T16:33:48-04:00

At my last duty station, all the joes on base (read: all of those not in any leadership position above squad leader) had to show up at 4:30 AM for an 8 AM post-wide run. Leadership started to show up at 6:30. The run started at 8 AM and was over at 8:15 AM.

Response by Lt Col Timothy Cassidy-Curtis made Oct 6 at 2022 7:23 PM

2022-10-06T19:23:35-04:00

I note that the post is for a soldier being late, not for a soldier "cutting it close, but being on time." Lateness is not excusable. 30 minutes soon becomes 20 minutes, then becomes 10, then 5, then just a couple, then...oops, you're late.

I have, personally, cut it close. In a few cases, I walked in just in front of the CO. The point is that timeliness is the risk of the individual soldier and should not be the CO's risk. A CO should be able to depend on all personnel being on time. If a soldier cuts it close, well, that's the soldier's risk. The much better play is some minutes early. Fifteen minutes appears to be the standard, and it seems to serve most personnel very well.

CO's, and other unit leaders, have their own superiors to deal with. If the CO's CO needs a word, then that's the CO's responsibility; the CO has to deal with that and everything else has to be deferred. A GREAT leader will allow "Sir (or Ma'am), I have a formation in just a few minutes," and make every effort to accommodate. Would that the DoD be filled with such great leaders. It's not. So, a CO, or other unit leader, will have to balance all their last-minute jobs and other priorities. This results in unfortunate delays, and some units might have more than others. That's life. The unit member will need to keep this in mind when awaiting the CO, or other unit leader, for a formation or other activity.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2022 9:01 AM

2022-10-07T09:01:29-04:00

I believe so. "The expressed wishes of your commanding officer are the same as an order". He doesn't need to be physically present for his orders to be carried out on any other occasion, does he?