Can a lower ranking person award a written counseling to a higher ranking individual based on "positional authority"?

2017-05-07T01:06:52-04:00

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2017 1:17 AM

2017-05-07T01:17:04-04:00

Not sure about the Navy, but for for my Division, it usually has to be someone of senior in grade OR someone who has first hand knowledge of actions for recommended award

Response by SCPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2017 1:22 AM

2017-05-07T01:22:27-04:00

Is this a hypothetical question or are you asking because of something you have experienced?

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2017 1:52 AM

2017-05-07T01:52:08-04:00

The only time I have seen it done is at Professional Military education. But I don't see why it could not be done in other situations as long as the relationship is defined as part of the counseling.

Response by CPO Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2017 7:12 AM

2017-05-07T07:12:19-04:00

Back when I was an E5, our Comms shack had an IT1 that used to gundeck her D-1 checks on the NCTSS server. I was an ET2 at the time in charge of both IT work centers because they had failed a 3M inspection, but the NCTSS server crashed. The last backup they could restore to was 2 weeks earlier, I spoke with my Chief and I put it all on a counseling form, and conducted the consoling with all the Combat Systems Chiefs present.
She was not very happy, and the Mess basically had to tell her take this or you are going to see the Captain in your dress uniform

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made May 7 at 2017 10:06 AM

2017-05-07T10:06:54-04:00

Had to read this entire discussion several times to get it straight in my mind, then took it back to the basics to get what I consider the correct and legal answer. In one word, No. I recognize, and do not question instances where such "counseling" may have occurred, but I do not believe such incidents would be regarded as official. My thought process follows:
The military survives on juniors following the direction, or orders, of seniors. It is the senior's responsibility to ensure directions given are legal and necessary. If a junior individual is directed or ordered to accomplish any act they consider a danger to the material or operational accomplishment of a specific task or mission of the unit or section, it is their responsibility to formally refuse the order. If the order endangers the unit or personnel, it is the junior's responsibility to ensure the act is not accomplished by the senior or any other person in the area the senior might order to do it at risk of court martial. The senior has two options to settle the issue. They may put the junior put under arrest and proceed with their desired action, or, time permitting, ask for the reasoning behind the junior's refusal to execute the order and defer to the junior's reasoning if appropriate.
If the senior elects the arrest and has his order executed, the junior (positionally responsible) individual is relieved of any responsibility for the consequences and the senior is inescapably responsible.
If the senior's action results in the adverse results anticipated by the junior, the junior ends up being a witness before the commander in support of the senior's incompetence or lack of judgement, which will reflect in his official record over the commander's signature. If no adverse results occur, the junior will be the defendant in front of the commander and have to defend his actions.
Fortunately, a situation such as this is mostly handled less formally through the intervention of department personnel equal to the senior, or who are recognized by the senior as having expert knowledge that allows the senior to back down gracefully, hopefully with an apology to the junior who was placed in the situation.
Why should an junior with "positional authority" be placed in such a predicament? The senior is assumed to have situational awareness that would override normal procedures and has the authority to order deviation from the normal rules under which the junior would operate in such circumstances.

Response by CW5 Sam R. Baker made May 7 at 2017 1:54 PM

2017-05-07T13:54:56-04:00

No. The rating chain is the rating chain and if you do not rate them than you obviously cannot counsel them. We have this problem in aviation with officers who out rank their platoon leader, however the officers out ranked cannot be rated by their platoon leader. Usually it is defaulted to the Executive Officer and he catches all the senior ranked NCO's and officers who were/are not up to snuff leading the element regardless of echelon. When an issue with a senior ranking Solider, Officer, NCO occurs, the supervisor by position should use the rating element to properly counsel the individual. Some commander's support placing the best in the right position regardless of rank and other prefer to place the senior regardless of performance in charge. I prefer talent management. A war story from way back, personally I was a Specialist as a MP when the Provost Marshal approved me to be the Desk Sergeant for all patrols which contained SGT and SSG personnel working the road. Under command authority by position I could dispatch and have them perform duties, but I could not counsel or discipline them. Just my .02

Response by MAJ Raúl Rovira made May 7 at 2017 10:43 PM

2017-05-07T22:43:53-04:00

In Hungary, our Captain HHD Commander gave a written counseling to a Lieutenant Colonel that was overweight. Done with respect of course.

Response by TSgt Bruce Davis made May 8 at 2017 9:50 AM

2017-05-08T09:50:07-04:00

it may not happen in the field all that often but what about in formal training? at a school house for instance? a lower ranking individual may be an instructor and a higher ranking individual (class member) may have failed a test...in this case "positional authority" would warrant counseling and written documentation. this happens more often, but is less talked about unless someone actually fails out of a course completely. another example might be a safety NCO. being directly responsible and directly reporting to the Commander. for on the spot violations...you bet I would counsel and write up a higher ranking individual if safety were involved!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 8 at 2017 10:02 AM

2017-05-08T10:02:41-04:00

Yes you can and yes I have, As a BN FDC Chief I did have an NCO in my section that outranked me, but because I was Chief of Section by position I rated and counseled him. I had no problem doing it and I figure if he had a problem he could take it up with the BC who put me in charge of the section over him.

Response by MGySgt James Forward made May 8 at 2017 3:42 PM

2017-05-08T15:42:41-04:00

I don't think that would work very well, as in not proper protocol. The person doing the counseling should be SENIOR in rank always. Might have an issue with my knife hand if someone of lesser grade even attempts this. I has a MSgt attempt to counsel me over something he did not like and we very quickly escalated it up to the Master Gunny. That master Gunny was really amused over the entire proposed actions....Semper Fi.

Response by PO1 Richard Cormier made May 9 at 2017 5:19 PM

2017-05-09T17:19:27-04:00

One of the most embarrassing moments in my Navy career. I was an E5 instructor for an advanced electronics system. Was "called out" by an E6 in front of the class. Was later called into the Master Chief Petty Officer of the Command (MCPOC) office without being told why. Was there for the dress-down of the E6. I was embarrassed for the E6 but the E8 & E9 said it was needed as too many senior enlisted in the School Command had started to do this. Basically told the E6 that by challenging and instructor, he challenged the Captain (06) as we were his representatives.

(In case you are wondering, it was a minor uniform violation that I quietly told the E6 about and instead of fixing, he challenged me to prove it as he was an E6 and I was an E5. I was right, but that didn't matter. I was polite and he was rude and boisterous.)

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 9 at 2017 6:56 PM

2017-05-09T18:56:48-04:00

I think we all have to see things from the perspective of the event. Obviously the counselling has no meaning if not eventually accepted by the counselees chain.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2017 11:53 AM

2017-05-10T11:53:11-04:00

I think this would be situational. As an instructor I had several occasions where my students outranked me but I was still required by TRADOC and CASCOM to conduct performance counselings on them because they were my students, even having given unsatisfactory performance counselings on a few occasions. I would have never considered asking my CW5 to conduct a counseling on one of my students regardless of their rank but I can't imagine this happening out in the force or in the fleet.

Response by PV2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 6 at 2017 6:38 PM

2017-06-06T18:38:44-04:00

So, the answer to this question is a simple yes. As an e-2 I have an unusual amount of positional authority. In my unit we are not authorized to have 91b above the rank of e-4 save for a master sergeant due to the small size of our motorpool. However due to a series of events involving the e-4s (which is every other soldier besides me) in the motorpool being shit bags, shamming tasking and things of that sort. I was appointed as squad leader (I suppose as a form of punishment for them) as part of my positional assignment I am expected to do monthly counselings and file them with our det. sergeant

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Mar 9 at 2019 4:18 PM

2019-03-09T16:18:55-05:00

No. Except for a awhile "time out" cards were used. :) However there are routes a junior ranking person can take to address an issue he may have w/ his supervisor.

Response by MCPO Hilary Kunz made Jul 1 at 2019 1:20 PM

2019-07-01T13:20:55-04:00

Yes. Position trumps pay grade. Always has, but the Navy is different from other services in so many ways, so that the correct answer for sister services isn’t the Navy answer. Right way, wrong way, and the Navy way, that was drilled into us.
I’m uncertain about this “written counseling”, but if you have a problem with one of the people assigned to your repair locker, for example, you first talk to them, maybe they don’t see the issue. Failing that, then follow your positional CoC for guidance, they should have your back.
If you have positional authority over people who are much senior, then brook no pushback from them. You’re the boss because they aren’t capable, and that stings.
I made ET1 as I hit 5 years and just as I reported to the command, and the CO reported shortly thereafter to fix a mismanaged operation. He fired the SK1 over 20 and made me Command LPO, frocked ET1 over 4. I did evaluations, assigned them duties, every part of leadership, just as though they made rate the day after me, although they all collected pay at a higher rate. I wasn’t mean, nor did I lord it over them, and they were so lazy and at terminal pay grade they didn’t seem to care much.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Feb 21 at 2024 3:58 AM

2024-02-21T03:58:54-05:00

Yes. Now with that answer comes an explanation. While the lower ranking person does not outrank the higher ranking person, they can be in a position of authority over them. IE Squad leader, section leader, team leader and the like. Additionally a person could be an NCOIC of a section that has higher ranks in it.
They are in a supervisory capacity and can write counseling statements and make recommendations to their immediate supervisor about persons under their command.