Can a platoon sgt tell a female soldier that she is required to wear a bra when in civilians?

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:35:06 -0400

I am a female in the army current on rotation over seas. I was just told by my team leader that my platoon Sgt (female) told him that I need to start wearing a bra while off duty. in the clothes that I wear, you can't see my nipple or even the color of my nipple nor do I wear revealing or low cut shirts. At the most, you can just see that I am simply not wearing one. Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required not even in uniform. Can she tell me to do so?

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 11:36 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:36:11 -0400

**you can’t not see my nipple

Response by CW4 Craig Urban made Apr 18 at 2019 11:43 AM

CW4 Craig Urban — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:43:39 -0400

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 11:47 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:47:40 -0400

Did the PSG elaborate on her rationale for this?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 11:54 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 11:54:25 -0400

I would certainly ask for some serious clarification and justification/rationale for this decision. As for me, IMHO, I don't care that you aren't wearing one because: 1) I'm not going to be staring at your chest and possibly create a situation neither of us want to be in and, 2) It's none of my business if you aren't wearing one while in civilian clothes.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 12:00 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:00:36 -0400

Within reason I would say no.

Response by LtCol Robert Quinter made Apr 18 at 2019 12:15 PM

LtCol Robert Quinter — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 12:15:33 -0400

The only conceivable reason I could come up with is the fact that you are US military in a foreign country and your platoon sgt feels your lack of a bra could be offensive to the locals. In any event, you deserve more information from your platoon sergeant directly without putting your team leader in what could be an awkward situation.

Response by SGT Nicholas M. made Apr 18 at 2019 1:52 PM

SGT Nicholas M. — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 13:52:46 -0400

DA Pam 670-1 Ch. 18-30 states that females will wear undergarments in all military uniforms (bra is an undergarment). Nothing specifically on "civilian clothes", but if you are in a "rotation" status overseas, then I am assuming it is not a normal 'getting off work at 1700' kind of gig. Therefore, civilian attire could be labelled as the "uniform" when not actively doing your job during the rotation.

Response by CPL Sheila Lewis made Apr 18 at 2019 3:09 PM

CPL Sheila Lewis — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:09:57 -0400

it is the decent thing to do.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 3:42 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 15:42:37 -0400

All that AR 670-1 dated 25 June 2017 says is that females are authorized to wear undergarments in civilian clothes. No where does it say they must. Additionally it says that undergarments are part of the combat uniform. Having said that how many male soldiers do you know that don't wear underwear especially in a field environment. Has any PSG male or female said anything about that? Because this post is the first I have ever heard of it being an issue in or out of duty uniform.

Response by Maj John Bell made Apr 18 at 2019 4:36 PM

Maj John Bell — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:36:50 -0400

Wow! I've read all the comments so far. Let me start out with... this is a damn minefield.

I can make my comments from the safety of not being on active duty.

I do not care what any hetero-sexual male says to the contrary. We are programmed to notice the secondary sexual characteristics of a female. Trust me it isn't the nipple color that catches our eye. The motion of a well endowed female's breasts will attract my attention from at least 200 yards. If you expect me (and other hetero-sexual males) not to notice, you are out of your mind. I bet if you asked my wife, she would say she can pick out that information from even farther away. I know because there is virtually no time between me noticing and the open handed slap to the back of my head.

However, that programming does not give me license to be an idiot. One of the differences between humans and animals, between men and children, is impulse control. It is my opinion that from a military point of view, your bralessness in civvies is not a problem, unless it is a problem. You have not given us enough detail for us to make a valid assessment. My guess is that you would only know that it is a problem, if you were intentionally making it a problem, (Jessica Rabbit comes to mind... "I'm not bad... they just draw me that way.")

If your platoon sergeant feels it is a military problem, she blew it. She told your male team leader to "navigate the minefield" and walked away, taking the mine detector with her when she left. She let down you AND the male team leader.

If it affects the way your viewed by the soldiers around you, it is more a personal problem for you than a "military" problem. She cannot order away the perceptions of those around you, only their inappropriate comments and actions. She OWES you a bit of "sisterly advice." So she still blew it.

If it is a problem because of the culture of your overseas station, it is still a military problem; but it would probably be handled with less discomfort all around, if she addressed it, because she is a woman.

If it is not any of the above, it is her problem.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Apr 18 at 2019 4:45 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 16:45:04 -0400

Look at AR 670-1 , para 3-9 sub (a),( b),( c), Civilian Clothing. If they feel it somehow detracts from the professional image of the service then, yes they can. Also check the unit policy book and see if there are any local civilian clothing requirements based on cultural considerations of the host nation.. If this bothers you schedule an appointment with the 1SG as they and the Commander by regulation have the say on what fly's and what doesn't in civvies in regards to the regulation .
One pesky local policy that comes to mind was the prohibition on males wearing ear rings while in civvies in Germany in the 1980s and again in Korea in the 1990s. Resulted in more than one tense on the spot correction.

Response by SSG Robert Webster made Apr 18 at 2019 6:50 PM

SSG Robert Webster — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 18:50:00 -0400

I am not going to get into a debate about what happened or did not happen in the meeting that you reference in another comment, since that on the surface appears to be a SHARP issue as other commentators have stated.
However, I would take you to task about your 'interpretation' of the regulation where you state that "Nowhere in any reg does it say it's required not even in uniform." That is absolutely incorrect.
I will only cover AR 670-1.
Composition of uniform:
4-2d, 5-2d (Maternity Uniform), 6-2d, 8-2f (Hospital and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 10-2i (Food Service and Maternity Uniforms - Female), 11-2c, 12-2e, 14-2a(6), 15-2e, 17-2d, 19-2h, 20-28 (References DA Pam 670-1).
In DA Pam 670-1, Chapter 18, paragraph 18-30 it describes 'undergarments' and starts specifically with female undergarments.
18–30. Undergarments
a. Brassieres and underpants (female).
(1) Type. Brassieres and underpants are a one-time cash allowance purchase as part of the initial clothing bag allow-ance.
(2) Description. Brassieres and underpants may be of a commercial design, in white, black, or other neutral colors that are not readily apparent when worn under the uniform. The category of brassieres also includes sports bras.
(3) How worn. Females will wear brassieres and underpants with all uniforms.

I won't go through the rest of it because I think and believe that you get my point.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 6:53 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 18:53:07 -0400

This is something I think you should demand that your PSG put into writing. I don't know of a single battalion commander willing to stand behind this as an order as long as your appearance is not inappropriate.

Response by SSG Brian G. made Apr 18 at 2019 7:48 PM

SSG Brian G. — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 19:48:18 -0400

No. Just no. That platoon Sergeant was wrong. Just plain wrong. The only time there is or should be an issue is when you are on duty and in civilian clothes.

Ask to see a regulation. In fact, as the Sergeant did not do it herself and had another NCO do it, a male at that, I would utilize my CoC open door policy.

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 18 at 2019 8:09 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:09:02 -0400

You have to wear one in uniform. You don’t have to wear one in civilian clothes unless you are in a location that requires a more conservative approach to civilian attire. Going braless in a tight t shirt in downtown Doha might not be advisable. If you are “gifted” in the chest area it might be in the best interests of your reputation to wear one out on the town but, that’s on you. I used to walk around on laundry days overseas without one but no one ever noticed enough to complain. I think I kind of feel bad about that now. I wish someone would tell me to put one on. i am feeling inadequate.

Response by SPC Phillip Sheppard made Apr 18 at 2019 8:33 PM

SPC Phillip Sheppard — Thu, 18 Apr 2019 20:33:27 -0400

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2019 2:14 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Apr 2019 02:14:56 -0400

Gonna play devil's advocate here. S/He's concerned about your safety for SHARP incidents. Sure, you can take care of yourself and you have battle buddies, etc. But, being deployed, you will be more susceptible to those actions. Protect yourself at all times. People know and see, they will talk. That is how I see why, my way. Your PSG should also tell you on a one on one basis as to why you should wear one.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Apr 19 at 2019 9:58 AM

SGT Dave Tracy — Fri, 19 Apr 2019 09:58:56 -0400

Wow. Less than 24 hours old and this post has generated more than 70 replies! Not bad for a non-political, non-Stolen Valor topic.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 19 at 2019 3:08 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 19 Apr 2019 15:08:15 -0400

Choose your battles. Put a bra on. They can even tell you something if your bra is visible through your uniform top (I work without my blouse) it’s distracting... kinda like in uniform you don’t fix your hair in public you go to the restroom. You are a representation of the military some cultures do not accept it and it’s not your country to decide to have your boobs unrestrained. Respect the culture represent your military

Response by SSG Trust Palmer made Apr 20 at 2019 8:27 AM

SSG Trust Palmer — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 08:27:42 -0400

As a female, our nipples do get hard and it can cause attention. I’ve gone without a bra numerous times and yes, at some point you can see my nipples. I would really like to understand why she asked you to do so and what’s the complete story. However, you should be allowed to wear what you want...

Response by CSM Rick Mathis made Apr 20 at 2019 7:40 PM

CSM Rick Mathis — Sat, 20 Apr 2019 19:40:44 -0400

If the Regulation don't say you have to wear one. Then you don't have to.

Response by PO1 Rick Serviss made Apr 21 at 2019 6:23 PM

PO1 Rick Serviss — Sun, 21 Apr 2019 18:23:40 -0400

I think I understand how you feel. You are off work, relaxing and want to be comfortable. That being said, if your platoon Sgt sees you again with out a bra she can turn up the heat on your team leader. I don't think there is anything wrong with a female, military or civilian, not wearing a bra as long as they are out of uniform. Here is the issue. Even if the regulations doesn't specifically say off-duty solders must wear a bra, there are regulations about following lawful orders. You should be very careful about fighting that battle. You are still a junior Soldier and the last thing you want is a target on your back. Good luck.

Response by CPT Colton Norwood made Apr 22 at 2019 12:09 AM

CPT Colton Norwood — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 00:09:52 -0400

Absolutely not. If someone said that to you, would you consider giving me their name, rank etc...

Response by CPT Colton Norwood made Apr 22 at 2019 12:14 AM

CPT Colton Norwood — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 00:14:41 -0400

Absolutely not.

Response by SSG Wayne Work made Apr 22 at 2019 1:47 AM

SSG Wayne Work — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 01:47:30 -0400

AR 670-1 is the "initial" standards for wearing and presentation BUT you also have to look at all potential local policies as well which can add to but not subtract from the standard. There is one thing almost everyone misses on wear and presentation. You need to "present yourself in a professional manner at all times" UCMJ. By not having appropriate underwear on, male or female could be seen as conduct unbecoming which I have see, especially high visibility placed such as the PX/BX and Commissary one can easily misrepresent themselves in an unprofessional manner which.in the case of an officer that is subjective and as an NCO you have to enforce the ARs and additional addendums as well as the UCMJ. In this case, a Male NCO should have another NCO present so there is no he said she said and IMHO I would as a ranking female NCO to politely address the issue and see if that NCO aso sees this as an issue. I hate to say it but in the real world people who do not dress appropriately do not get the respect they deserve and the situation could escalate into a really bad one in the wrong civilian setting. (SSG 15yr Arny and was the 1st Sargent for a company of 220 Male amd female MI HHSC company for over a year)

Response by LTC Ken Connolly made Apr 22 at 2019 11:32 AM

LTC Ken Connolly — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 11:32:30 -0400

For a male Sgt, I would not travel down that lane. I would ask one of the senior NCO women to have a discussion with the soldier on proper civilian attire for women. I had somewhat similar problem with women college interns. They were dressing as if they were going out for the evening. I asked one of the women Division Chiefs to discuss proper business attire for women. They even offered to help the young women to pick out more appropriate clothes. For the guys, I was more direct. No more shorts, flip flops and hanging around break room. They were to wear button down shirts, full length cotton trousers, and tie shoes. I gave both sexes one week to comply or they would be fired (this was in the government too.) To no one's surprise the students complied.

Response by SGT Brittany Sd made Apr 22 at 2019 12:38 PM

SGT Brittany Sd — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:38:46 -0400

I would love to see how that counseling statement ended up ..

Response by SGT Brittany Sd made Apr 22 at 2019 12:44 PM

SGT Brittany Sd — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 12:44:12 -0400

How does she know you are not wearing a bra then ? What defines a bra?

I would love to see how that counseling statement went .. Private so and so .. during off duty hours one April 1st during , you where seen jogging without proper breast support. .. for future off duty workouts please where the proper PPE for your safety as well as representing the military's image of female soldiers .. if this conduct continues it may result in separation .... etc.

Response by MSgt Michelle Backus made Apr 22 at 2019 2:34 PM

MSgt Michelle Backus — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 14:34:04 -0400

I would tell you as your NCOIC. Especially overseas. Your represent the Uniform and undergarments need to be worn.

Response by SP5 Michael Austine made Apr 22 at 2019 9:37 PM

SP5 Michael Austine — Mon, 22 Apr 2019 21:37:15 -0400

Do it ! It's for your own safety.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Helgesen made Apr 24 at 2019 9:33 AM

SFC Jeffrey Helgesen — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:33:46 -0400

Proud of all your comments, a very reasonable group of soldiers voicing real concerns.

Response by SFC Jeffrey Helgesen made Apr 24 at 2019 9:34 AM

SFC Jeffrey Helgesen — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 09:34:34 -0400

Proud of all you soldiers for real concerns & reasonable comments.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 24 at 2019 11:21 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 11:21:47 -0400

Sharp

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Apr 24 at 2019 5:29 PM

CPL Jay Strickland — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 17:29:06 -0400

On duty ? Absolutely. Off duty if it detracts from a professional apperance. It is subjective and depends on the person's body. In theory you could challenge it by going up the chain but my guess is it's not worth it. As a personal anecdote during a civillan clothes PT day an extremely embarrassed female platoon sergeant told me I was required to wear briefs and not boxers while engaged in running/jumping on base. So this is not solely a female issue.

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Apr 24 at 2019 10:31 PM

PO1 Richard Nyberg — Wed, 24 Apr 2019 22:31:31 -0400

This I have no idea, I wasn't involved with women when I was in the Army from 1966 to 1975. When I was in the Navy from 1976 until I retired in Jan 1988 I only served on one ship with females and it was a repair ship the USS Hector AR7. I never worried about what they wore off the ship.

Response by GySgt Kenneth Pepper made Apr 25 at 2019 11:56 AM

GySgt Kenneth Pepper — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 11:56:19 -0400

The simple answer is yes, of course she can. The reason she issued the order is irrelevant. There could be a multitude of reasons why. Unless you have a valid reason for not complying with a lawful order you can and likely will be held accountable.
Don't let something so trivial trip you up. If you are serious about your career you will need to learn that you will sometimes have to sacrifice comfort and individualism for the greater good.

Response by PO3 Ronda Kelly made Apr 25 at 2019 3:18 PM

PO3 Ronda Kelly — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:18:11 -0400

I am 62 years old and retired. I don’t know the regulations now, however I find it offensive that you were even asked to do so as the military does not issue bras. If that’s the case, there are many MEN WHO NEED BRAS AS WELL. Be encouraged and blessed. This life is short and goes very fast.
Much love from Hatchechubbee, Alabama.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 25 at 2019 3:49 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 25 Apr 2019 15:49:05 -0400

It’s all about your interpretation. Question: have you thought about why your platoon sergeant highly recommend you to wear a bra? You stated you are in a rotation overseas, have you thought that the suggestion was probably made for your safety? It’s not always a negative thing when suggestions are made. Talk directly with your platoon sergeant to get more information. If it is noticeable that you’re not wearing a bra, unintentionally it can be misconstrued as something sexual in nature and can open you up to a SHARP complaint. So your start point should be with the platoon sergeant to get more information on the recommendation, because she may be looking out for your well-being. Good luck to you....

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 26 at 2019 1:51 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 26 Apr 2019 01:51:37 -0400

When I read the question carefully first I would figure if I glanced at your chest I would not do a double take. When my wife walked down the street with me in Uttar Pradesh India men of the cheap labor class would tend to look her way no matter where i was standing, and she would later tell me it gave her an ugly creepy feeling. So there are countries where if a man notices anything attractive about a woman he will scan the rest of her body, as I did as a teen-ager and for many years until I had more understanding of women friends and lovers, and the mistakes I made being sex oriented (a.k.a. known as living in a fantasy world).
Are platoon Sgts. watching out for the platoon sexually harrassing women on base? Not from what I hear from women Iraq vets! Not from what is in the news frequently. One can criticize burkas and sharia law, but how do we treat women?

Response by SGT Shane Serna made Apr 27 at 2019 5:16 PM

SGT Shane Serna — Sat, 27 Apr 2019 17:16:15 -0400

Only the idiots try enforcing those rules. Had a Sgt tell one my other SGTs while running to wear one. She was. we all Had a good chuckle and continued on our way.

Response by Col Private RallyPoint Member made Apr 28 at 2019 8:45 AM

Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 28 Apr 2019 08:45:41 -0400

Only had to deal with a USAF E-4 dietary tech that would come up to the ward on weekends in uniform without a bra ... which was instantly obvious in her whites. I discussed options with my female med techs and then corrected the E4. At the time, I believe AFR 35-10 called for a female to wear a bra in uniform...

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 6 at 2019 3:37 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 06 May 2019 15:37:43 -0400

I think the best course of action here is to ask your team leader to schedule a meeting for you with the PSG and ask the PSG for clarification on what you did or did not do to necessitate receiving the directive. "Generally" there is a good reason for something like this that just didn't get filtered down to you. Either way you'll get far better results than all of the answers on RP.

Response by PO1 Larry McIntyre made May 23 at 2019 7:57 AM

PO1 Larry McIntyre — Thu, 23 May 2019 07:57:38 -0400

Wear the bra. It's the military. Do as you are told.

Response by Maj Private RallyPoint Member made May 23 at 2019 8:38 AM

Maj Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 23 May 2019 08:38:30 -0400

As an Air Force Officer I wouldn’t touched that subject at all. It wasn’t my business.

Response by SPC Ronald Speakman made May 24 at 2019 12:00 PM

SPC Ronald Speakman — Fri, 24 May 2019 12:00:19 -0400

It is unfortunate but the foolish experiment of having women serve alongside men since the 1970s has been catastrophic for the careers of male solders and officers. I personally witnessed the destruction in moral and unit efficiency during my enlistment. There is no doubt most male enlisted ranks believe women are treated differently and allowed to use their sex in avoiding work details, dress codes, sick calls etc., especially in the field. The rate of suicides are direct result of poor leadership brought on by the irrational female brain that we see so much of in the democratic party. Young men are not equipped to deal with a females constant drama and recognize how women are treated differently especially when comes to sex and a majority of female soldiers uses their sex to get what she wants .Leadership refuses to stand up to this wicked experiment on young men, who are expected to think like women and recognize they are similarly situated but treated entirely differently "so deal with it." The career Officer Corps has done nothing to help the enlisted in all theses years by standing up to this lunacy. Not even the Army of Israel allows woman to be treated differently than males. I would support a general day of protest for all soldiers to put a stop to this lunacy or a day of silence to all females, until the Leadership separate the females into a separate branch like in WWII

Response by SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2019 12:24 PM

SMSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 May 2019 12:24:32 -0400

I think she told him to tell you this for other reasons. Military personnel overseas, far away from home, their loved ones, and normal creature comforts really are under a lot of stress. That and the absence of those things can make life harder for some in some ways when you are doing something like this. It creates the wrong impression also and there is more chance of it bringing you unwanted attention in some ways and so I think they are just watching out for your well being and also that of those others that are stationed there with you. Also the last thing your platoon sergeant wants to have to deal with is some situation that you might have contributed to causing in some ways involving something like this. If your build is such that people can tell you are not wearing a bra then you should probably be wearing one and especially in a deployed environment or on a rotation overseas.

Response by SPC Byron Skinner made May 24 at 2019 1:02 PM

SPC Byron Skinner — Fri, 24 May 2019 13:02:00 -0400

SP4 Byron Skinner. It is now a fact of life that females will be assigned to former male MOSs, and will be in mixed gender platoon. One the subject to wearing the proscribed under garments I have to admit I didn't sea any underwear in Vietnam. It was to attractive to the leaches crawling on your legs on night missions. Yes I did see a couple of guys that got leaches on the testicles and scrotums, not pretty to have these blood filled sack hanging below your testicles… The only salvation of leaches is that when they bite into you, you can't feel it, really the first inkling of a leach bite is the sack of warm stuff goring down your body…Female shoulders should be able to wear what ever underclothing that makes the most comfortable. ..Off duty off post, the best advice for the US Army is to look the other way. Some unit commanders have a bayonet up their six and like to concern themselves with an issue like this are not needed in the US Army any more, best to retire them.

Response by PO3 David Miller made May 24 at 2019 5:16 PM

PO3 David Miller — Fri, 24 May 2019 17:16:12 -0400

The Platoon Sgt. shouldn’t have to say anything to you.

Response by Cpl Bill Herman made May 24 at 2019 6:28 PM

Cpl Bill Herman — Fri, 24 May 2019 18:28:10 -0400

When I was in the Corps, we (male and female) were told basically what we could wear Off Base and that at All times we were 24/7 in the Corps and should Always dress Appropriately. We were never given any Regs or rules on what was Appropriate, but we knew and most all the time adhered to being a 24/7 Marine even in civilian attire. Of course I cannot speak for everyone.
I do know that when on base in civies we always dressed appropriately.
Much later after the Corps I worked for the Army and I often saw Soldiers dressed like crap, sloppy, when in civies and sometimes even in Uniform.
So if there is no reg I would think she can dress as she pleases. But I would not want to PO my Superior Non Coms and would say fine and then wait until I was out of sight.

Response by SSG Charlie Davis made May 24 at 2019 6:56 PM

SSG Charlie Davis — Fri, 24 May 2019 18:56:04 -0400

SPC Chastity B., I thought about this question for sometime before deciding to respond on this issue. Fortunately for me, you're being in a platoon having a female platoon sergeant and a team leader also a female makes this a little easier to address. AR-670-1, Para 3-9 does cite regulations regarding the wearing of civilian clothing by soldiers on and off-duty and yes the regulations have multiple exceptions and most are subject to interpretation. But it all boils down to this, your female PSG and team leader should sit down with you and pose the question: If you wear a bra while in uniform, why would you purposely draw a whole bunch of unwanted attention to yourself while off-duty and possibly even unintentionally affect the platoon mission by creating internal distractions in the platoon or the company. If you decide to disregard the recommendations of your superiors (both females - mind you) you may wind up compromising yourself through misinterpretation by others. As a male, I would not even consider making an approach to a female - even a subordinate - on this subject given the climate and sensitivity to male-female interactions in any military or civilian setting. While disregarding the counseling of the PSG and the team leader may not have a punitive consequence, why take a chance - be all you can be - without touting all you have.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made May 24 at 2019 7:55 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 24 May 2019 19:55:02 -0400

That's an interesting question. I would say check with your local policy. I remember when I was in 2ID in Korea the policies regarding civilian attire were really conservative, we even had "Courtesy Patrol" to ensure soldiers where behaving and dressed properly. CQ personnel and NCOs will not allow soldiers to leave the barracks if their attire was in violation of the policies.

Response by Cpl Mark Oresko made May 25 at 2019 3:21 AM

Cpl Mark Oresko — Sat, 25 May 2019 03:21:47 -0400

First and foremost, if you are okay with not wearing a bra in public, you are wrong. Your female platoon sgt didn't put you on blast in front of the entire battalion. I'd say she did you a solid by having your squad leader pass on the information instead of putting you on blast in front of every swinging dick. Stop questioning your superiors over little shit like this. They are either looking out for your own good, or they don't want you displaying your girls. It isn't just trashy. It makes the Army look bad. Everywhere you go, and everything you do is a display of your branch, and your country.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2019 8:37 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 May 2019 08:37:28 -0400

SFC JOHNSTON is completely on point. From a female perspective, we must maintain a professional appearance at all times, in or out if uniform. Unfortunately, that is subjective and vas

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2019 8:41 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 May 2019 08:41:56 -0400

SFC JOHNSTON Is on point with this. From a female perspective, we must maintain a professional appearance at all times. Unfortunately this is subjective. We don't have any idea of what the current climate or situation is in the area in which you live. Although I understand it is much more comfortable to not wear an undergarment, we must be cognizant of our appearance. As most of us have grown up in a society wear undergarments are normal. Additionally, you may think that your "nipples" are not showing but in fact they could be. What one sees in the mirror does not always translate the same when outdoors.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made May 25 at 2019 11:26 AM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 25 May 2019 11:26:38 -0400

Comply

Response by SSgt Kurk Prater made May 25 at 2019 11:05 PM

SSgt Kurk Prater — Sat, 25 May 2019 23:05:18 -0400

this is one of the reasons I joined the Air Force, your off-duty time is yours and whatever you wish to wear is up to you... in the army, everything is controlled by higher ups, you cant even take off for the weekend without signing off of base, where we could whatever we wanted on weekends

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2019 10:51 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 May 2019 10:51:36 -0400

DA Pam 18-30 Undergarments...check it out. You will wear that shit in uniform. Now that we have that out of the way.

So it must clearly be making someone uncomfortable that you aren’t wearing a bra in civilian clothes. Put one one, drink some water and march on. Pretty easy.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2019 2:22 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 May 2019 14:22:08 -0400

So my answer may not be liked, because of the strides us females have made in the military, and how we need to be treated equal. I will say though, perception is reality. Even though there is nothing wrong with a woman not wearing a bra in her off time, unfortunately due to society, it is not really viewed as appropriate. Especially in a work environment (your overseas rotation). No matter what we females have done to try to pave our own way, there is unfortunately a stigma. Not wearing a bra can be viewed the wrong way. Also, it could also be a safety issue, or honestly hinder unit cohesion. Individuals could be uncomfortable, yes I know that is their problem. But it is easier to tell you to wear a bra than to tell someone to feel comfortable especially if they are distracted. I would not really look at this badly. Instead look at it as a senior female NCO is looking out for you. She has seen more in her time. I would go to her directly. It would be a good mentoring moment.

Response by Sgt Wilson L Brame made May 26 at 2019 2:26 PM

Sgt Wilson L Brame — Sun, 26 May 2019 14:26:55 -0400

Off duty on Base maybe. That would be the determination of the Base or Squadron Commander. Off Base absolutely NOT!!

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made May 26 at 2019 4:21 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 26 May 2019 16:21:52 -0400

So if you do that ensure to check you male soldiers for underwear and undershirts.

Response by SrA Brett Stratton made May 26 at 2019 4:43 PM

SrA Brett Stratton — Sun, 26 May 2019 16:43:12 -0400

Short answer, no. Maybe times have changed, but when you're in civvies, you're pretty much off-duty. Unless you're in a city or village where your garments are considered offensive, there's really no reason as to why you should micro-manage your soldier's apparel when not in the shop.

Still, defying orders on the spot is always a bad idea. I'd advise asking the sergeant why this is. The reason might be a very good one, but I'm inclined to believe it's a very bad one. If it IS a bad one, take it up the chain of command.

Response by LCpl Steve Smith made May 26 at 2019 10:11 PM

LCpl Steve Smith — Sun, 26 May 2019 22:11:33 -0400

I would pose this question to your Superior or JAG if the answer is unclear in the dress code regulations on that subject..

Response by Sgt James Gross made May 27 at 2019 12:37 AM

Sgt James Gross — Mon, 27 May 2019 00:37:07 -0400

I would leave that up to the individual, since it is a personal choice at that point. I would look up the regulation since it probably specifies appropriate attire for certain occasions.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made May 27 at 2019 2:07 PM

CPL Joseph Elinger — Mon, 27 May 2019 14:07:22 -0400

Regardless of Chain of Command it is totally inappropriate for this 2 party discussion to have been carried on in your absence. Were it an issue of *personal hygiene, or *conduct unbecoming, or *distraction / offence it might have been a different matter. Both the disparity in genders, & the discussed topic were questionable.
I do have 1 Question: Do the Armed Forces issue women's brasiers? As a guy, I know we received an initial issue of T Shirt & Underpants, as well as Wool Socks. Yes, MANY of us guys are guilty (mea culpa) of "doing our own thing:" on the Under pants matter, & even wearing nonReg socks under our boots.
Were I the PSG, I would have broached the topic privately with you in the company of another female PSG, or The Unit Chaplain / Chaplain's Asst. It's too *personal a matter.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 28 at 2019 11:41 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 28 May 2019 11:41:37 -0400

I've read the comments, and I am stunned by many, and my post here is as much to the other posters as it is to SPC Chastity Bolden.

In the Army a Platoon Sergeant (PSG) is generally a Sergeant First Class: a Senior NCO, Like a Navy Chief Petty Officer, a Marine Corps Gunnery Sergeant, or an AirForce Master Sergeant. In the Army, a Senior NCO is responsible for the actions and behaviors of their subordinate Soldiers, and for the leadership development of junior NCO's and the counsel and mentorship to the Platoon Leader, typically a 2nd Lieutenant (O-1).

Regardless of where in the world this is occurring, regardless of the gender of the PSG or Team Leader, regardless of the type of Command, and regardless of the presence or lack of Command Policy Memorandums:

1. Civilian attire during non-duty periods is still subject to the Commander's discretion. This guidance is not illegal, immoral, or unethical. Civilian attire is a privilege- not a right. A Commander could require soldiers to be on PASS to wear civilian attire. In some Commands, the Commander even directs sleeping attire- eg. the APFT Uniform with undergarments.

2. Senior NCO's job is to anticipate and execute the will of the Commander. If a Senior NCO's assessment is that a Soldier's attire is not appropriate- negatively impacts readiness, order, discipline, health or safety- then the Senior NCO has the authority to give corrective direction. Not every policy is necessary to be written down, and not every order must be written down. Failure to follow a legal order- that's an order that is not illegal, immoral, or unethical- may still receive Non-Judicial punishment. If you push the lack of written policy- it will result in a written policy. Be careful what you wish for, once something becomes a written policy it is likely more restrictive, eg. banning civilian attire without a pass, and becomes punitive in nature. Your peers will not appreciate you.

3. It is likely that the PSG has the experience that supports the decision and likely would have the support of the Commander. Commanders rely on the experience of Senior NCOs. Commanders expect Senior NCO's to be professionals, to be competent, and to take care of business without the Officers needing to be involved. There is an entire Creed about it that I estimate a PSG is more familiar with than the SPC is. ( https://www.army.mil/values/nco.html )

4. If the Soldier assesses that the PSG's guidance is discriminatory, then the Soldier should respectfully request- through the 1SG- to exercise the Commander's Open Door Policy.

5. And finally- there is nothing wrong with a PSG directing a Squad Leader/ Team Leader to provide guidance or corrections to an enlisted Soldier. It is leadership. The Team Leader benefits from performing a leadership function that may be awkward or uncomfortable. These experiences are necessary for leaders to develop on their path to Senior NCO ranks. The PSG shouldn't be expected to have every interaction with every issue with every enlisted soldier, that is contrary to the purpose of subordinate leaders.

Just my 3 cents worth.

NCO Creed - Army Values

The following is the NCO Creed (Non Commissioned Officer Creed)

Response by SGT Joseph Dutton made May 28 at 2019 9:24 PM

SGT Joseph Dutton — Tue, 28 May 2019 21:24:25 -0400

Not really! She can suggest / request it.

Response by PFC Terrance Smith made May 29 at 2019 11:11 AM

PFC Terrance Smith — Wed, 29 May 2019 11:11:58 -0400

Here is my opinion just like everyone else who spoke theirs. Yes the military can regulate your civilian attire. I worked at CIF and had to become very attuned to regulations that cover clothing and military gear. Just as stated wearing civilian attire is a privilege it isn’t a right. In today’s me too society it can be harmful to the good and order of military discipline you going without a bra. Just as stated men are weak we will notice and stare. That can be perceived as sexual harassment. With sexual harassment and sexual assault on the rise in the military you may were asked to wear one because someone said something Inappropriate or complained. If it was noticed by males it was definitely noticed by other female soldiers. Order and discipline is what comes to mind. The ranking female platoon SGT should have converse with you her concerns. I advise follow up with her and do not disregard what was advised to you.

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made May 29 at 2019 1:17 PM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 29 May 2019 13:17:49 -0400

You need to look up the regulations on civilian dress code follow what your team leader says till you find the dress code regulation

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made May 29 at 2019 3:47 PM

SGT Juan Robledo — Wed, 29 May 2019 15:47:36 -0400

The young female soldier should know the rules and regulations of not then she should be required to read up those particular regulations about the proper attire, regardless if she's wearing civilian attire, she's officially on duty and therefore should dress appropriately, no excuses, otherwise she could face severe consequences, the same applies to make soldiers who tend to walk around with droopy drawers or not wearing the proper attire, there's no reason for being unprofessional

Response by SSG Ralph Watkins made May 30 at 2019 2:32 PM

SSG Ralph Watkins — Thu, 30 May 2019 14:32:53 -0400

Depends on where you are overseas. In Germany back in the day, they just told all of us not to get nude on the nude beaches. Many still did. Our females went without bras & even topless when being like the locals. Even stateside, there was no reason for anybody to ever bet so nit-picky. We had one female MP who went to the NCO club that was wearing a black thong, black lace cat suit, & high heels who almost got an Article 15. The accuser was another female & it turned out that our MP was getting too much attention & she was jealous. Our females should be able to express themselves while off duty. The males in their unit better have their back in case somebody tries anything she doesn't want.

Response by CPT Henry Bevil made May 30 at 2019 5:34 PM

CPT Henry Bevil — Thu, 30 May 2019 17:34:41 -0400

Should be your option.

Response by TSgt Tommy Amparano made May 31 at 2019 4:48 PM

TSgt Tommy Amparano — Fri, 31 May 2019 16:48:41 -0400

That is awkward. She can say whatever she wants. Are you required to comply? I guess that would depend on if that is coming in the form of an order or a friendly suggestion. Without getting into the argument about fairness between men being able to go topless in public and women are not, why would you not want to present yourself in the best light even when on your off time. I am old school, so I do believe you are going to draw unwanted attention and it could become a safety reason for her order/suggestion. Based on some of the responses here it sounds like there are definitely some regulations to back up that Sgts action.

Response by SPC Cathy Goessman made May 31 at 2019 7:50 PM

SPC Cathy Goessman — Fri, 31 May 2019 19:50:08 -0400

If another female has noticed that you are not wearing a bra then you are showing something. They can require that you wear decent clothing and that is subject to interpretation.

Response by PO1 Tom Follis made Jun 3 at 2019 10:35 PM

PO1 Tom Follis — Mon, 03 Jun 2019 22:35:54 -0400

What the hell is going on with you bunch of soldiers? Do you All think you’re entitled? Here’s a grand idea,”Why not shut the f**k and do what you’re told.” You’re in the military little girl, not at home in some little bitty titty dance club. You’re over-seas. Did it occur to you that possibly YOU are unethical? A lot of country’s don’t tolerate that behavior from their own women. Let alone a visitor. Obviously, your mini headlights were on bright cause someone noticed or they wouldn’t have said anything. Get with the program. Shut up and grow up.

Response by SSG Carlos Madden made Jun 4 at 2019 12:00 PM

SSG Carlos Madden — Tue, 04 Jun 2019 12:00:31 -0400

This seems like a really strange request tbh. However, one thing that caught my attention is that you're on a rotation overseas. First, this means that "off duty time" may be a little more regulated than when you're CONUS (I'm not sure of your unit, security situation, mission or anything so it's just a guess). Second, there could be a cultural reason your PSG is giving you this directive. For example, if you're in a place like Kuwait and around locals, I can see how a tight fitting shirt and/or going braless may cause friction with the host nation - something the Army as a whole is sensitive to. Is that fair to US servicewomen overseas? Probably not but unfortunately that's the world most people live in.

Again, I don't know the specifics but it's something to consider.

Response by SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jun 5 at 2019 2:50 PM

SSG(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 Jun 2019 14:50:06 -0400

You raise a good point. It would be up to your Unit Commander, see AR 670-1 chapter 3-9 C(page 15).
DA Pam 670-1 states females will wear bras and underwear at all time while in uniform, see DA Pam 670-1 Chapter 18-30 paragraph a-3(page 133).

Consider respectfully asking the reason why, it may bring something you were unaware of to light.

Response by COL Mike Walton made Jun 25 at 2019 3:42 PM

COL Mike Walton — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 15:42:46 -0400

Unforutately, yes. The same with wearing underwear by men or at least a cup to hold in the "boys", so to speak. This all comes down to that being a distraction while off-duty. Sure, you can go bra-less in your own room or house; but when you're out public, whether in or out of the official uniforms, you still represent us and need to carry yourself in a manner which best represents us all.

That's the reason why the Army has standards for grooming, body art, and clothing -- because some how, some way, people will KNOW you are "in the service" and will judge ALL OF US -- not just you -- on what you wear (or in this case, don't wear) while representing us.

I am sure that someone here can quote the specifics as far the "regs" are concerned. Just remember what your DI told you and me: "you are a part of this Army 24/7/365, even in your sleep you're Army!"

Response by COL Mike Walton made Jun 25 at 2019 3:48 PM

COL Mike Walton — Tue, 25 Jun 2019 15:48:01 -0400

Response by CDR Donald Albee made Jul 9 at 2019 6:07 PM

CDR Donald Albee — Tue, 09 Jul 2019 18:07:30 -0400

Same with underwear. Are they required if not visible?

Response by 1SG Cj Grisham made Jul 12 at 2019 9:02 AM

1SG Cj Grisham — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 09:02:52 -0400

I wish I had nothing better to do when I was still a platoon sergeant or first sergeant than going around telling my troops to wear a bra in civilian clothes. Your PSG needs to get a life.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2019 11:35 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 11:35:01 -0400

I say she is absolutely within her right. Since you are deployed and I bet it's part of a packing list?

Response by LTC Raymond Buenteo made Jul 12 at 2019 5:29 PM

LTC Raymond Buenteo — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 17:29:15 -0400

Stuff like this never came to my attention through official channels as a commander because it is very petty. But I will say this. Quit your whining and wear the damn bra so it doesn’t go to your commander. We as military members have a standard we must present 24/7 in or out of uniform on base. I never could appreciate selfishness by a soldier they are more problem than benefit.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2019 11:32 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 Jul 2019 23:32:51 -0400

I agree with SFC Johnston. I was out of the service for 11 years and learned what hurt my first time in service was not picking my battles, and not reading regulations...just believed what I was told. Take the high road and keep it at the lowest level possible. The down side is, 1SG's and CSM's are not required to have an open door policy, yet they are very good at seeing Soldiers when the Soldier needs it. Simply put, if you have to go to your 1SG or up to your CSM if that doesn't work. The last thing I can tell you, don't be afraid, all our supervisors still put their pants on the same as we do, one leg at a time....move forward and make sure this is a fight you want to have.

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Jul 13 at 2019 9:27 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Sat, 13 Jul 2019 09:27:49 -0400

My take on this is First Female PSG telling a Male Team leader to talk to a Female SM about wearing a bra. Gives a whole new name to delegation. 1st. This would be a good time for a written counseling protecting all involved, The thing that hits me the hardest Is "PSG I didn't Notice so maybe it would be better for you to approach said SM you have the details and answers she is going to want to ask about."
I did not see the violation if that is what it is by local policy, IMHO the PSG seen said violation she should have done an on the spot correction, Not put me in a position where I have to decide, or guess, or take sides, or take the flack for something I was never aware of. Which to me means I don't have a dog in the fight. In turn if I see said violation I would find another female SM and ask Her to set in on a Counseling just to so there is no misunderstanding. AR 670-1 does cover that with a blanket statement which Is "will present a professional appearance or Image", which can be interpreted as yes you need to wear said underwear.
In addition some common sense should apply. If you are wearing revealing clothing along with no Bra that's one thing but just because no one can see weather you are or not is not a good call in my opinion. "lets just say would not put myself in a position that I had to actually say I was looking that hard."

In closing I really don't think Rally Point is a good place to ask questions about this kind of thing your going to get more opinion than any thing. What I would say here is far different than what I would say in the civilian world. JMTC

Response by PO1 Dennis Herdina made Jul 13 at 2019 10:18 AM

PO1 Dennis Herdina — Sat, 13 Jul 2019 10:18:51 -0400

This is not a question here for RP. You would be better off asking within chain of command. In military a professional look is required off duty...(consult your regs)

Response by SSG Jerry Chlarson made Jul 13 at 2019 3:01 PM

SSG Jerry Chlarson — Sat, 13 Jul 2019 15:01:45 -0400

Current Rotation Overseas doesn't tell us where which, can make a big difference. Arabic countries are going to see things differently than the local dance club in the US or Germany. That said, if the PSG wants to say something, they need to say it, not pawn it off on a Team Leader. That's like me telling my kids to tell another kid how to dress at school. The PSG can include the Team Leader in the discussion/counseling, but it's not his job too do the PSG's job. Good Order and Appearance is so subjective it's probably actually worth asking for a "proper counseling" on a 4856 so you are not fighting "a audita pro compertis" (hear say) battle and you have it in your personnel file. Remember you do not have to agree with the counseling, but make sure your reply statement accurately reflects the facts of the counseling, not your opinions. Elevate it if you want the fight, but don't put emotion into it. I would maybe go so far as to include pictures of the "offending" clothing (not unlike the Tattoo Picture Policy) as examples to show clear evidence of your civilian attire. I'm betting it won't go past Co level, the LT or XO could put a quick stop to it at a Platoon level. You may win the fight, but it could put you in the line of fire too, so choose your battles. A simple solution would be to comply when in the Co/Post area, and once you are out on the town, take it off and go about your business.

I read a comment where a Male said they wouldn't address a Female about this. That is also a wrong answer. Get over yourselves when talking to the opposite sex. If you're willing to type it out on RP, then Man Up and be a leader to your Soldiers.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made Jul 14 at 2019 3:04 AM

1SG Michael Farrell — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 03:04:02 -0400

Yes. You can raise the issue with the Platoon Sergeant if you do it the right way -- I'm not arguing but I'm trying to understand so that if I'm in leadership position, I can make the right decision.

Response by CPO Arthur Weinberger made Jul 14 at 2019 8:29 PM

CPO Arthur Weinberger — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 20:29:02 -0400

You have the right to question an order if it endangers life or property.

Response by SN Virginia Murph made Jul 14 at 2019 9:06 PM

SN Virginia Murph — Sun, 14 Jul 2019 21:06:48 -0400

Act like a lady in pubic and wear one and you will get more respect. I worked ina classroom at school after getting out of the Navy. A woman came to the High school to subsitute for a day. Everyone gossip behind her back about she did not have a bra on, but no one including me said a word to her about why the school and some employes thought she should not return.You really had to state to tell. I did not notice as you said, she was not wearing any see through clothing. Dress like a lady in pubic.

Response by SN Robbie Malone made Jul 15 at 2019 6:52 PM

SN Robbie Malone — Mon, 15 Jul 2019 18:52:57 -0400

the question i have were they on base or off base?

Response by Capt Timothy DeBoda made Jul 16 at 2019 7:34 AM

Capt Timothy DeBoda — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 07:34:16 -0400

Depends if it is blatant or not, hard to define, but you know it when you see it. Short answer, yes.

Response by PO3 Adam Stoflet made Jul 16 at 2019 6:50 PM

PO3 Adam Stoflet — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 18:50:39 -0400

I remember when my ship got to go to England for a port visit, when I got to the quarter deck I was told that I needed to change my shirt, it was a blue polo with white and orange stripes. After looking puzzled for a second the officer of the deck told me that my shirt was the color of the rival soccer team in town and I would likely get jumped or attack because of it, so obviously I changed my shirt.
So to answer you question it does depend on the context. If your state side and not doing any command related functions and are going home for the day you do you. If your in a foreign country remember that you appearance and actions affect how the world looks and treats the US. If you’re on base doing on base things you should conduct yourself accordingly you never know who is watching and how your appearance or behavior could effect your career.

Response by MSG Terry Breaux made Jul 16 at 2019 11:37 PM

MSG Terry Breaux — Tue, 16 Jul 2019 23:37:10 -0400

With 21+ years of military experience. It is subjective at best! But it is clearly not specified regarding the wear of a women's under garments. So she was clearly out of here lane, addressing the issue, given the facts that you presented. Today's military have bigger situation to address.

Response by Cpl James Graves made Jul 17 at 2019 12:10 AM

Cpl James Graves — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 00:10:37 -0400

Wow! There is a problem as a Marine (1967-70) that I never ever thought about. This is the new modern Army I guess. From my perspective and this is just as a typical retired professional, I think that there are a couple of things to consider. First, I'm sure that no matter how progressive the Army is these days, that at some point they gave you the speech about being an ambassador of good will when you're overseas. Having said that, I think it would be advisable to consider the culture of the country you're in as well as some other things like weather. Going without a bra is probably not a good idea. You did say that people could tell that you were without a bra. When you're out and among the people I can't think of many cultures that would view your mode of dress in a positive light. In my opinion I can see the possibility of lots of problems. I know, not for you. I'm just giving you my opinion. One more thing. I'm sure that you realize and understand the issues and that concerns me more than anything else.

Response by SFC Michael W. made Jul 17 at 2019 1:46 AM

SFC Michael W. — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 01:46:33 -0400

You're in civies...unless you are at a military function like Bn or Bde sports day or similiar, you should be able to where your attire as you feel as long as it's not racist or derogatory toward the military. The scary thing is that the Regs stipulates what you can and cannot do with loopholes in the system. The key thing is to remember is that you represent the Armed Forces of the United States and the way some people sees you in public can and possibly will make assumptions both in positive and negative ways about the military as well as yourself.

Response by MSgt Andre Stringer made Jul 17 at 2019 5:34 AM

MSgt Andre Stringer — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 05:34:01 -0400

I was a grunt and never been a Plt Sgt but as enlisted a Plt Commander. I know that sounds strange. I have always enforced strict uniform regulations. Back in the day before Marines went on liberty we had to get a liberty pass and were inspected by the duty NCO. If we did meet the standards we had to change. At one-time blue jeans and sneakers were not allowed. Over the years that changed and we were allowed to wear what we want on liberty. Things like standing in the pay line and getting $60,00 in cash every 2 weeks were over. When I was a Plt Commander. I was upset the way a few Marines dressed on liberty. My Plt Sgt told me it is not much you can do about it. I found ways to correct that problem. When I left the grunts and was in H&S Bn. It the first time I had to deal with female Marines (WM) as a leader. I did not care if they did not wear a bra in civvies. I was only concerned about them meeting Marine Corps standards in uniform and performing their duties. One female Marine Sgt made a serious mistake when I pulled her aside to discuss her uniform infractions. She said SSgt if you have something to tell me you can say it in front of everyone. I am old school infantry, locked her heels and went the fuck off on her. She was in tears and troops in that interservice unit put the word out. " Don't mess with that crazy Marine grunt SSgt." There was a hardcore Army SSgt Vietnam vet in that unit no one would mess with. He was the of one of the few who knew I was a Vietnam combat vet. He was not afraid to crack the whip and enforce discipline. He did not take shit from males or females and was feared. BTW have some people seen some military females in public, not in uniform? Bra or no bra they are sexy as hell. No one would have a clue they are military. I had a minor problem with a WM Cpl who worked in legal. I only saw her in uniform on Base but ran into her at a bar off base in civies. She was hot with her hair down and wearing tight jeans. She flirted but I had no clue who she was. She called by name and said I know her from legal. I said you are the one in the front office I have to deal with involving legal problems with my Marines I said you are a very sexy good looking woman out of uniform. She said Gunny I look better with no clothes on. I had to remind her I was an E-7 and she was an E-4. I think this whole thing is about a famle Plt Sgt having a problem with females wearing a bra off duty. Most don'tgive a shit.

Response by SPC Darren Lopez made Jul 17 at 2019 12:00 PM

SPC Darren Lopez — Wed, 17 Jul 2019 12:00:40 -0400

I like that idea! Maybe your ePSzAR can see if you are ready for MPADAPCO1 training on the V158W8?

Response by SGT Heidi Blake made Jul 18 at 2019 10:38 AM

SGT Heidi Blake — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 10:38:08 -0400

First of all, bras are out. You never mentioned your size, either. If you have large breasts and your tits are swinging in the breeze, wear a close-fitting camisole. You can continue ticking her off or you can go ahead... get a comfy bralette and next time she asks if you’re wearing one, say, “I don’t know why you’re so taken with my breasts but, as matter fact, I DO have on a bra. With matching panties/thong even. This is your last warning... your continued interest in my underwear is undesired and I consider it sexual harassment. I’ve already documented every instance of your harassment and I’m prepared to report you.” Then DO IT; report her.

NOTE: if you’re in the Middle East or countries where women bind their breasts in public - put on a damned bra! In some of those countries you can be thrown in jail for causing rape just for being there.

Response by PV2 Ross Bryan made Jul 18 at 2019 11:33 AM

PV2 Ross Bryan — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 11:33:49 -0400

I FIND IT AMAZING THE PLATOON SGT DID NOT TELL YOU HERSELF, AND USED A MALE TEAM LEADER TO PASS THE WORD!
MORE RANL AND NO GUTS???

Response by PFC Steve Cox made Jul 18 at 2019 6:39 PM

PFC Steve Cox — Thu, 18 Jul 2019 18:39:22 -0400

While it seems inappropriate to address this matter as an official act, when you are a member of the US military you should be open to making your life as a soldier easier by following that input. It costs you little to comply, and until you leave the service it might make your professional relationship more tolerable, despite how you feel about it. I would suggest not making this an issue, and that will minimize the effect of it on you. Don't get upset, or offended by this, just do your duty to the best of your ability and move on. This situation is temporary and you might find the next command you are under will not have an issue with this. If they do, I suggest that you take a different perspective and follow your leadership's direction, unless it becomes more outside of the scope of regular military duty and regulations.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 20 at 2019 9:00 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 09:00:06 -0400

All good points previously stated. In my opinion, this is an opportunity for you to have a professional discussion with your chain of command and be part of setting the standard for future reference. Discussion points should also include whether this is an accepted standard in the local area.

Please remember that you represent the United States wherever you go, and your decisions, however big or small, have power to influence the general populace either for or against our nation’s presence there. It’s a stretch to believe that each of us have a hand in shaping international relations, but we do. Keep us posted on how this develops.

Response by SrA Lisa Hunt made Jul 20 at 2019 12:14 PM

SrA Lisa Hunt — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:14:30 -0400

Sorry, but I'm going to need a picture of this to make an informed decision.

Response by SrA Lisa Hunt made Jul 20 at 2019 12:41 PM

SrA Lisa Hunt — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 12:41:39 -0400

Put the bra on, child, and quit whining! Look at all these nice men trying to be PC & not step on your feelings...it's irrelevant! If you can't follow this simple request, you don't belong in uniform. Your personal beliefs are irrelevant especially when you represent women in the military and all we fought for to achieve to be allowed to even wear a uniform. Out of the country is even more imperative. Do you not realize this is basic traing bs? You were told to wear the bra, wear it...suck it up, buttercup!

Response by SFC Phillip Allen made Jul 20 at 2019 11:36 PM

SFC Phillip Allen — Sat, 20 Jul 2019 23:36:40 -0400

My response to this, speaking as a former PSG, is to read up on any local policies before making an issue, otherwise a PSG or any other leader for that matter can't enforce personal preference as policy. If you're anywhere other than an ultra conservative place, like the Middle East, the only people you might offend are Americans, because we are the ones with these hangups. Ask the PSG if the males are required to wear underwear/jock straps to secure their private parts, if the answer is no, that's the end of the conversation. It sounds to me like this PSG has a personal issue and that's not enforceable policy. Pick your battles, but if it's worth it to you, then follow the chain of command/concern and use your available resources, like approved policy letters from garrison or regional commands and the IG, it's not accusing someone of harassment, nor is it disrespectful or insubordinate to ask for clarification and seek further guidance.

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 12:05 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 00:05:51 -0400

So, there are “special rules” if you are in rotation in a foreign country that supersede regulations and those rules are hashed out in joint military and state agreements. I learned this the hard way during a rotation to Kuwait. They expect a certain dress code and that code is actually part of the joint military and state agreement. Your platoon sergeant may be getting word from on high to tighten the ship about things like this. Though you may not find it in Army regulations, there are things some of the host countries expect you to follow anyway.

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Jul 21 at 2019 8:29 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 08:29:03 -0400

I don't even begin to know what to even remotely try to say to that, honest....

Response by 1SG Charles Simpson made Jul 21 at 2019 8:48 AM

1SG Charles Simpson — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 08:48:51 -0400

I retired in 1988 but the last ruling I saw on this topic was this. Underwear was mandatory for all soldiers while in uniform and/or while dressed in civilian attire during "on duty" status. The wearing of underwear is a matter of soldier preference when not in uniform and in an "off duty" status. Is this really what our present day soldier worries about?

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 21 at 2019 9:03 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 09:03:20 -0400

On base is 'on base'. And how is this an affront? It's not. Unless you go off base.

Response by SFC Mike Taylor made Jul 21 at 2019 9:22 AM

SFC Mike Taylor — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 09:22:42 -0400

It's Never a question of what you wear but always a question of is it professional (perception) to an iindividual So ask about the instructions and talk to you 1st sgt in private to get advice.

Response by CPT Robert Bradley made Jul 21 at 2019 10:10 AM

CPT Robert Bradley — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:10:39 -0400

it depends a lot on the duty station that the soldier is assigned to decide on dress and appearance.
if you are stationed at an embassy in a locale where most women wear a bra then I would say "yes".
if your in a combat environment and dressed as a soldier then it is discretionary.....

Response by GySgt Thomas Vick made Jul 21 at 2019 10:30 AM

GySgt Thomas Vick — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 10:30:03 -0400

That would depend on the Dress Code of your unit.

Response by SSG J F Texas made Jul 21 at 2019 3:01 PM

SSG J F Texas — Sun, 21 Jul 2019 15:01:46 -0400

We got a blurb of one side of what really happened. This female basicly claims no one can tell she is braless which is wrong since a correction needed to be made. The rest of this story is missing. Did this come down the chain of command or was it initiated by the PSG? Does that really matter? Someone felt her appearances was unprofessional or maybe trying to look out for her safety. Moreover this is not a 9 to 5. This is the Army. Your actions and appearance reflect on you, your command, the Army and the United States 24/7/365. Army regulations apply all 24hrs of the day.

Many comments worry about SHARP. I believe they are off base on this since the issue wasn't raised in the question and if you're handling your business correctly you shouldn't have anything to worry about. There should be nothing sexual about enforcing a professional appearance. The only unwanted comment is that you can't do whatever you please as a soldier.

The only thing I would have suggested is that the PSG been present at or conducted the conversation.

Response by CDR Peter Gregory made Jul 22 at 2019 2:49 PM

CDR Peter Gregory — Mon, 22 Jul 2019 14:49:17 -0400

I think apart from a more specific context and situation hard to respond too. In the Navy and ports of call overseas in leave and liberty situations, off duty or liberty attire is managed at the Quarterdeck per SOFA and Fleet Directives, and is not gender specific. Usually common sense dictates being attune to cultural sensitivities and what could be seen as offensive to the host nation. Would it be wise to dress for an evening in Istanbul or a tour of the Vatican as one would for a night out on Hampton Blvd in Norfolk? That wisdom applies equally to both men and women.

Response by SSG 91 B40 00 J50 made Jul 23 at 2019 4:20 AM

SSG 91 B40 00 J50 — Tue, 23 Jul 2019 04:20:56 -0400

If that Platoon Sgt is Female, she made be on to something that needs sharing. You may actually like what she has to say.
If it's a male Plt.Sgt, he needs to get over himself.

Response by MSgt Roger Lalik made Jul 23 at 2019 8:28 AM

MSgt Roger Lalik — Tue, 23 Jul 2019 08:28:32 -0400

Com'mon men, don't we have more important things to do than worry about if a female is wearing a bra in civilian atire off base?

Response by SGT David Barton made Jul 24 at 2019 3:01 AM

SGT David Barton — Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:01:19 -0400

I am from the “old Army” (meaning 80’s/90’s era). From my understanding, a soldier in the Army is in the Army 24/7 and is subject to all orders given by a superior whether on duty or off. Of course, things may have changed after my tenure, but the UCMJ is clear that superiors have control at all times. With that said, if ordered to wear a bra, then wear a bra. It’s not an illegal order that will cause bodily injury or death, so it can be lawfully given. If the issue is of that great of importance, use the chain of command and elevate the concern; but whatever you do, do deliberately disobey as that can come back to bite.

Response by SGT David Barton made Jul 24 at 2019 3:06 AM

SGT David Barton — Wed, 24 Jul 2019 03:06:06 -0400

Corrections on my previous comment due to “fat finger typo”,... DO NOT deliberately disobey an order.

Response by Cpl Robert Robertson made Jul 27 at 2019 5:13 PM

Cpl Robert Robertson — Sat, 27 Jul 2019 17:13:19 -0400

I would not say a word to her...I would talk the the WM gunny and let her handle it. \A word to the wise

Response by SPC Christina H. made Aug 1 at 2019 5:23 PM

SPC Christina H. — Thu, 01 Aug 2019 17:23:42 -0400

I wear my Bra (I purchase comfortable ones, and they do cost a pretty penny), so that I am comfortable and so not as to give an unprofessional loose image of myself. If you do not mind people all up in your BRA BUSINESS, because not wearing one does call attention and all females know braless calls attention and creates convo, then do not comply, but I agree with another Soldier here, you will make your time a little rough for yourself while there.

Response by Sgt Heriberto Salinas made Aug 4 at 2019 7:46 PM

Sgt Heriberto Salinas — Sun, 04 Aug 2019 19:46:34 -0400

I personally think that what you do on your off duty time is your business. What you also have to remember is, like law enforcement, you still have a responsibility to uphold the regulations. I personally don't care. I've been to nude beaches, nudist colonies. I've seen nipples fly all over the place. I happen to believe that God made a beautiful thing, called the human body. So, by all means, be yourself. (Off duty)

Response by Sgt David A. made Aug 13 at 2019 9:01 AM

Sgt David A. — Tue, 13 Aug 2019 09:01:02 -0400

I am a former Marine Corps Sergeant, active duty 1986-1994. I was a platoon sergeant for 3 years of my second tour of duty back in the early 90's. Things may have changed since then but I do know that in those days, Marines had to abide by a civilian dress code. For example; if you wore pants you had to wear a belt, shoes with laces had to have their laces properly tied, crazy T-shirts with improper slogans were not allowed, tight fitting or revealing attire for men and women were not allowed, women marines had to wear proper undergarment including a bra in and out of uniform. The specific guidelines were very detail for both men and women however, the overall rule was that as a Marine, you were supposed to portray a respectable, classy image worthy of your title and the United States Marine Corps, both in or out of uniform. I am quite certain that the Army has similar standards. So, unless the dress code policies and guidelines have changed over the years, your platoon sergeant is correct. I hope this helps and thank you for your service.

Response by MAJ Tracy Pim made Aug 20 at 2019 9:35 PM

MAJ Tracy Pim — Tue, 20 Aug 2019 21:35:02 -0400

your platoon sergeant needs to find better boogers to pick..........

Response by SPC Dave Janis made Aug 21 at 2019 7:31 PM

SPC Dave Janis — Wed, 21 Aug 2019 19:31:31 -0400

I have lived with the adage “You can add to you can’t take away from” she can under that make it a requirement for her soldiers to present a business like professional appearance and for the lady soldiers expect that “some or all” female undergarment(s) are a requirement

Response by A1C Joseph Fox made Aug 21 at 2019 11:32 PM

A1C Joseph Fox — Wed, 21 Aug 2019 23:32:07 -0400

YOUNG LADY, GO TO ALL THE NEWS MEDIAS AND SEE WHAT THEY SAY, DON'T PUT UP WITH THAT TYPE OF "CRAP"

Response by LTC Philip Marlowe made Aug 22 at 2019 12:38 AM

LTC Philip Marlowe — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 00:38:48 -0400

The US Armed Forces needs to get out of the business of attempting to 'legislate' morality. I has NEVER and WILL NEVER work. You will NOT change human nature no matter how hard you try. As a Det Cdr my SOP was "When hosting a member of the opposite sex, your barracks door must remain open at least 3 inches". Do you REALLY believe that stopped ANYTHING between two consenting YOUNG, teenage, adults? Uh, NO. Everyone here remember GO 1, the "Thou shall not drink, curse or have relations with members of the opposite sex while in a combat theater of operations" that came out in Desert Shield/Storm and in some form or other still exists? Well, did it stop anything? NO. In fact, having served as the Law Enforcement OPS Officer, VII Corps Rear Provost Marshal in the desert, if anything, it INCREASED incidents of 'all of the above' because it became a challenge to see who could get away with it. That means its only effective if you GET CAUGHT. However, even after all this, there is still the belief that somehow, some day, the military will actually be able to control human nature via SOP. When the Armed Forces have to resort to 'got you' regulations - there is a problem on the front end and its blatant the military simply can't keep up with the evolution of each new generation.

Response by COL John Hudson made Aug 22 at 2019 10:52 AM

COL John Hudson — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 10:52:26 -0400

From The IG Desk: Army Regulation 670-1, paragraph 3-9 (Page 15) does provide civilian dress guidance to an extent. However, interpretations may appear to be somewhat broad, in effect leaving closer understanding or guidance up to the local Commander who is inevitably responsible for anything done by service members under his/her command. We all wish to loosen up and relax outside garrison and such is in fact encouraged while not on duty. Freedom of expression, a cherished asset of our culture, is not to be extended to violation of the concept of 'professional appearance' during one's military service. Be mindful that EVERY service member throughout our world-wide membership, regardless of rank or position, is accountable for their behavior and the manner in which they present themselves "at all times." I suggest that AR 670-1, Para. 3-9, "Civilian Clothing" items A through I are nine easily read and understood guidelines. If questions of undergarment use arise in your local assignment area, then discretion is the best policy addressable by seeking guidance from your Chain of Command which should be clear on proper wear. If any question still persists, then please make an appointment to see your local Inspector General for further guidance.

Response by TSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 22 at 2019 6:48 PM

TSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 22 Aug 2019 18:48:06 -0400

I'll tell you a story. In my Navy days we and an Admirel call and an open mic. I remember a young female sailor asked the question about having that option to not wear a bra. The end result was no. I could only quess because she is under contract you must portray a clean imgine.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 23 at 2019 2:17 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 23 Aug 2019 02:17:46 -0400

There are some leaders that feel compelled to control their subordinates at all times- even when off duty. It makes me sick, actually. Once soldiers are released, let them live like how they want to (aside from what affects everyone else around them, such as in filth). Some (if not most) of the leaders in the military REALLY NEED a lesson in how to manage people, it would really go a long way. Who cares if a soldier is wearing a bra or not? IMHO, I think I'd rather my soldiers be comfortable- it would make them happier, raise morale, and make them more productive. #MGT101

Response by MAJ Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2019 8:34 AM

MAJ Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 08:34:53 -0400

As a female in the military, your NCO May not have discussed it with you appropriately but you are a Soldier 24/7. That is one of the few professions. Now look at yourself in the mirror and put yourself in your NCOs shoes. If you saw your young Soldiers nipples and they were coming to see you for a counseling session (bad or good) or even an informal interview. Would you show your nipples to your boss? Either way, remember you are a professional and you should act in a professional manner. I would just be mindful of my attire in and around other soldiers and installations. Set the standard and do great things! Good luck.

Response by CPL Jeremy Glenn made Aug 24 at 2019 11:54 AM

CPL Jeremy Glenn — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 11:54:55 -0400

Yes they can.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 24 at 2019 8:20 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 24 Aug 2019 20:20:33 -0400

As mentioned before its pretty subjective. What are the cg's guidelines? You're overseas so what does the sofa agreement state? Are you in an Arab or Muslim country? If yes put the goddamn bra on. Its honestly a lot to look at and I dont think it should matter as long as you dont look like you're off to get your fix of smack, but at the end if the day.....is it a legal order? Yes. Is it an ethical order? Yes. A bit over the top? Maybe

Response by LCDR Mike Morrissey made Aug 25 at 2019 1:17 PM

LCDR Mike Morrissey — Sun, 25 Aug 2019 13:17:44 -0400

The original post was made 4 months ago which provided a good opportunity for responses. As a career male Naval Officer married for 46 yrs to a career lady Naval Officer, I would recommend sorting all the response by gender and put the feminine responses at the top, thoroughly read them then use the male responses as secondary.and tertiary advice.

No matter how long we deal with the gender mix in the armed services, it’s the experience of the ones in the trenches which counts the most. My wife has given me viewpoints which hadn’t occurred to me and which kept a few situations from gathering energy. She much more frequently did the same for female Officer and Enlisted personnel. She was the first woman from Alaska commissioned as a Navy line officer, first woman assigned to a certain major shore command and when deployed to Desert Storm was the interim Commander, MSC Middle East...which proved interesting since senior Saudis had to speak to her to get things done.

All that said, no matter the gender, we all set aside a number of civilian privileges when we took the oath. We also surrendered several constitutional rights to the UCMJ. The Military and Naval Services are more focused on good order and discipline than any civilian enterprise. To paraphrase— To bra or not to bra, that is the question, what’s it worth to you?

You are dealing with life experiences and physical attributes with which no man has contended, that’s why I suggested sorting out the women’s perspective for counsel.

Response by PO1 Todd B. made Sep 2 at 2019 12:27 AM

PO1 Todd B. — Mon, 02 Sep 2019 00:27:18 -0400

The military cannot dictate undergarments and what you do or do not wear unless you are wearing top clothing that is revealing things that normally would be covered by under garments OFF duty..

IF the military was allowed to dictate that, things like bikini's could be regulated off duty. And that is not the case. If they had that ability, they could dictate the color of your underwear, the type you must wear and more.

Civilian clothes are just that. And no the military does not have the authority to regulate ANY under garments for any reason OFF duty. Anyone that tries to tell you otherwise is full of themselves.

And for the men saying the opposite, when is the last time the military told you you HAD to wear briefs instead of boxers off duty? I will wait for you to cite the regulation on the books for that one...

Response by SPC Michael Baustert made Sep 7 at 2019 8:12 PM

SPC Michael Baustert — Sat, 07 Sep 2019 20:12:21 -0400

If it’s not in policy at all then you are fine.

Response by Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr made Sep 26 at 2019 8:12 PM

Cpl James R. " Jim" Gossett Jr — Thu, 26 Sep 2019 20:12:21 -0400

I'll stay out of this one...

Response by SPC Randy Torgerson made Oct 4 at 2019 1:24 PM

SPC Randy Torgerson — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 13:24:50 -0400

I would like to comment on this. The others have sited regulation, rules and policies, I agree with all that. My comment is this, Your in the United States Military (regardless of branch). You chose to work for and abide by a completely different way of life. The US Military is not selling insurance for Farmers Insurance and therefore you have a 9-5 job. You are essentially government property. Do what your instructed to do. There are procedures in place to properly challenge an order given by a superior. Defiance is not one of them.

There are sometimes misconceptions about military life. One of those is this.... Being "off duty" is not the same as being off work as it is in the civilian life. Off duty simply means your presence is not required (for a certain amount of time), or take some free time. Your still a soldier 24/7.

That being said and if its not an emergency, you do what your instructed and then question the order when its proper to do so. But let me stress, comply first.

(disclaimer: I have no real opinion on this particular case involving the wearing of a bra or not, my comments are meant to be more broad)

Response by SGT Joy Henry Collette made Oct 4 at 2019 4:17 PM

SGT Joy Henry Collette — Fri, 04 Oct 2019 16:17:08 -0400

PLEASE READ THIS. I THINK I HAVE A GOOD INSIGHT ON THIS. I was a SPEC4 long ago, but from my experience as a 22 yr old smarty pants super troop who seemed to rub older females the wrong way by being book smart and not knowing yet how important the "social game" is, the fact she told a male leader to tell you says that she may not be so concerned with your safety or honor, or as an older female, interested in connecting with you and helping you understand what going without a bra might depict to men. She may be testing your team leader, or you, or the both of you. She may be looking to see if he had the balls and professionalism to talk to you about a somewhat touchy subject, and then looking to see how you react. My though is if she really cared about you, she should have talked to you woman to woman herself instead of making him do it. I imagine the discussion was embarrassing for him and for you. Did he say WHY the platoon SGT wants you to wear a bra at all times? Did he say her reason was something helpful to you personally, like she thought it was giving people the wrong impression of you? If the platoon SGT's reasoning that was relayed to you was something to the effect that would help you personally, then maybe you should go talk to her yourself and ask her why didn't she say something to you herself. Tell her it was hurtful for you to hear that from a male and not her. Tell her you admire her (doesn't have to be true, but it will flatter her) and you would like to receive sensitive correction like this from her in the future because it would help you be a better soldier and woman. I hope she was testing the team leader. I hope she really does care about you, and she isn't just being a bitch to be a bitch. I hope the two of you can connect and she can be more of a mentor to you because that is part of her job and being the platoon leader. Good luck to you.

Response by CWO4 Roberto Obong made Oct 5 at 2019 2:10 AM

CWO4 Roberto Obong — Sat, 05 Oct 2019 02:10:43 -0400

There's no regulations in the military that I know of that covers a female soldier while on civilian clothes should, will or shall wear a freaking bra. Its like saying, I should wear my underwear while wearing pants. Sounds like the platoon sergeant needs a bra wrapped around her freaking grape.

However, if we assess the situation and use good sense, it would be inappropriate if a female private parts are showing (see through) and definitely poor judgement in her part.

It is kind of subjective, but the bottom line is we as service members need to realize what we should be doing that's appropriate not only for yourself , but also the image of the entire service you are a member of.

Back to planet earth, "Why would I care if Private Smuckatelly wears a bra or not. Stick with the meat and potatoes and follow through with the mission. I don't think someones bra will make a difference along the lines of accomplishing the mission. The platoon sergeant got too much time on her hands.

Response by SSG James N. made Oct 5 at 2019 10:15 AM

SSG James N. — Sat, 05 Oct 2019 10:15:51 -0400

DOCUMENT ALL OF THIS IN A JOURNEL, days, times etc. Go directly to your 1SG, use his open door policy, and ask for a informal table discussion with PSG, 1SG, and EO.
When this is completed, the issue will be resolved.
If the PSG begins to harass you AFTER THE FACT, this is retaliation, a clear violation of EO and other policies. DOCUMENT this as well. After you have documented retaliation if it goes there and was not resolved, go to your 1SG and ask to use the BN SGM open door where you will ask for EO to be present, and present the journal. You may want the CO to be there as well.

My guess is this will be permanently settled without much ado when you see your 1SG.

You might also go directly to EO, and ask for a informal meeting with your TL, EO and PSG...this takes the 'lowest level' patch and usually works well.

Response by Capt Jennifer Parsons Kangas made Oct 7 at 2019 9:56 AM

Capt Jennifer Parsons Kangas — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 09:56:45 -0400

Without knowing where you are specifically, it’s hard to say whether or not the demand is unfair. However, I can’t imagine why your platoon sergeant felt the need to delegate this to a male supervisor. It’s completely inappropriate and puts him in a bad position. If for some reason she has to delegate that task, it should be to another female. If that’s not an option, she needs to cowgirl the hell up and do it herself.

Response by SGT Juan Robledo made Oct 7 at 2019 10:49 AM

SGT Juan Robledo — Mon, 07 Oct 2019 10:49:33 -0400

Why bring the wrong type of attention, your a soldier act like one, regardless if you're in uniform or civilian attire, good luck

Response by Sgt C S made Oct 8 at 2019 3:52 PM

Sgt C S — Tue, 08 Oct 2019 15:52:41 -0400

Even if not in uniform, we still represent our service and in a foreign country, our own country. So much is circumstantial. It seems there's more to this than you just not wearing a bra....

Response by Capt Daniel Goodman made Oct 9 at 2019 12:30 AM

Capt Daniel Goodman — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 00:30:34 -0400

I don't know about all of you, and obv I normally wouldn't chime in on stuff like this, of course, but the thing that obv crossed my mind is, someone'd REALLY need a WHOLE lotta gall to criticize something like that, ya know?

Response by SN Ricky Wiseman made Oct 9 at 2019 7:24 AM

SN Ricky Wiseman — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 07:24:43 -0400

Yes she can your in the military which you signed up for. Your took an oath to obey those appointed over you. In other words it doesn’t matter what you think. You belong to the U S military suck it up buttercup

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Oct 9 at 2019 11:56 AM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Wed, 09 Oct 2019 11:56:42 -0400

AR 670-1 does indeed have a section that covers how civilian attire should be worn. I suggest that this Specialist READS IT.

Response by SSG Dale London made Oct 10 at 2019 5:03 AM

SSG Dale London — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 05:03:18 -0400

Short answer: yes.
Believe it or not, the answer to this question does not lie in the remit of AR 670-1 but in the UCMJ. From the time we enlist until the time we separate from the service we are subject to the lawful orders of our superiors. Furthermore, dressing in civilian clothes is a privilege, not a right. The army goes to great lengths to impress this idea on your subconscious mind, starting from the day you get your MEPS briefing from your recruiter.
As a member of the US armed forces, your conduct, appearance and demeanor reflect on both your service and the country as a whole. Your PSG has the duty and responsibility to maintain and uphold the standards set by the Department of the Army in general and your Commanding Officer in particular.
Thus if your CO says "females wear bras," you need to wear a bra or face the consequences for failing to follow a lawful order.

Response by SPC David Dupey made Oct 10 at 2019 7:47 AM

SPC David Dupey — Thu, 10 Oct 2019 07:47:51 -0400

Your sargent can tell you to adjust your on or off duty clothing if they were told by a higher rank and don't have to say were it came from and when you are out of us there is a by interpretation about on and off duty dress depending were you are at. The military has been trying to have female dress so that they are safer and less chance for them to be assaulted by no showing of skin to the breasts of any kind sins 2008 about it has to dew with safty of military members.

Response by SFC Brian Randall made Oct 11 at 2019 9:39 AM

SFC Brian Randall — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 09:39:00 -0400

You are a soldier 24 hours a day and are required to conform to the regulations set forth. You are to present yourself both on and off duty in a professional manner. Whether or not your Platoon Sergeant is a female or male has nothing to do with it. You took an oath to to obey the orders of officers (non-commissioned officers and officers alike) appointed over you. Suck it up pancake and do the right thing. Ask yourself how you would handle this situation if you were in a position of authority.

Response by A1C Alexa Cosson made Oct 11 at 2019 2:20 PM

A1C Alexa Cosson — Fri, 11 Oct 2019 14:20:51 -0400

Considering the nature of the discussion, the female Sgt. should have been the one to tell you, to at least give you specifics as to why you were getting that directive. It could've been due to local customs/expectations, or in violation of military regulations. Either way, she should have spared your male team leader this uncomfortable conversation. Sorry, Sister. Cover the girls, per orders.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2019 4:42 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 16:42:39 -0400

I don’t think a platoon sergeant should dictate whether or not a female Solider wears a bra while in Civilian attire. Especially if said Solider is partaking in her off duty occupation as a dancer at a gentlemen’s club. Just my two cents

Response by SGT Harry C Miller Jr made Oct 12 at 2019 11:35 PM

SGT Harry C Miller Jr — Sat, 12 Oct 2019 23:35:54 -0400

Are they really kidding Me.... Now they're going a lil' bit toooo far ! Of all the thing's we have to worry about, to wear or not to wear is "NOT" the question ! Don't everybody remember the Bra-Burning of the 70's. You go girl !

Response by SSG Red Hoffman made Oct 13 at 2019 12:15 PM

SSG Red Hoffman — Sun, 13 Oct 2019 12:15:27 -0400

Why are they looking at her boobs?

Response by SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales made Oct 16 at 2019 9:25 AM

SSG Omar Ruiz-Canales — Wed, 16 Oct 2019 09:25:45 -0400

you may want to seek an EO rep to find the answers for you on this.. I always understood that it if isn't physically seen, then you are ok (as in see thru clothing). It is also probably advisable not to push the subject on base. As where you say it can't be seen, but anyone can say they can clearly see it. As for off base, how is it that come into the same circles as your NCO's?

Response by SFC Robert Walton made Oct 18 at 2019 7:53 AM

SFC Robert Walton — Fri, 18 Oct 2019 07:53:16 -0400

SPC Private RallyPoint Member You may not even get a chance to read this how ever there has been some really good advice posted her. MSG Brian Johnston posted excellent answers. One thing I notice that may be of a help to you is the complaint came from your PSG. Then instead of handling it at her level she put it on the SQD LDR/TEAM LDR. it was her complaint she needs to handle it not pass it down to someone else that way you get the information concerning your violation directly from the person that feels it is a problem. She could then take the subject up with the rest of the chain of command later and privately. There are regulations that cover this issue although loosely in some cases. You have AR 670-1/ 600-20, and other as in command policy, and local policy. As an NCO your PLT SGT. Observes and infraction it is her JOB to do an on the spot and than general counseling as a follow up not pass it down to some one else. Like in most of these discussions it is hard for everyone to give you much help because of a large amount of information. This happened 6 months ago so hopefully you have the problem solved would be nice to see how it was resolved so we could learn from it. Thank you for your Service.

Response by SFC Shannon B. made Nov 8 at 2019 9:24 AM

SFC Shannon B. — Fri, 08 Nov 2019 09:24:06 -0500

If it’s going to be you need to wear this or that just remember that the guys all have to stay clean shaven even on weekends. Your plt Sargent is a whimp. She could of told you her self.

Response by SFC Scott Hightower made Nov 9 at 2019 9:16 PM

SFC Scott Hightower — Sat, 09 Nov 2019 21:16:32 -0500

If your deployed your technically on duty 24/7. Something to think about before you raise too much of a stink, you can bet your PSG already knows this.

Response by SSG Jeffery Payne made Nov 10 at 2019 12:37 AM

SSG Jeffery Payne — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 00:37:48 -0500

I'm sorry, but this is not the Army I was in. If your PSG gives the order and you don't like it. Suck it up and get a time for you to talk to the PSG to discuss the issue. It seems like the the kids of today question everything they don't like. If you can't obey your PSG in a little matter like this, what are you going to do when the bullets start flying and your PSG tells you to do something you don't like? If you can't follow orders the Army needs to retrain the SM.

Response by SrA Ronald Moore made Nov 10 at 2019 6:30 PM

SrA Ronald Moore — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 18:30:51 -0500

Its' one of those situation where If possible talk to her off duty and find out where she is coming from with this.She could be modeling you for greatness, And she could be knowing how it look as to the other platoon, or been thru what she is suggesting to you.Just a thought to ponder

Response by Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 10 at 2019 7:28 PM

Lt Col Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Nov 2019 19:28:28 -0500

Is the order illegal, immoral, or unethical? (No)

Is the order conducive to good order and discipline? (Yes)

Is the order discriminatory? (Likely, no)

Is this the hill you want to have your very early career sacrificed on? (Likely, no)

Is there a legitimate, documented medical reason why you don’t wear a bra? (No?)

Then yes—the PSG can issue such an order.

Response by Jerry Rivas made Nov 11 at 2019 6:28 AM

Jerry Rivas — Mon, 11 Nov 2019 06:28:00 -0500

The short answer is.....YES. Perhaps your breastworks need additional fortification.

Response by SFC Terry Wilcox made Nov 12 at 2019 6:02 PM

SFC Terry Wilcox — Tue, 12 Nov 2019 18:02:59 -0500

I don't know about today's Army, but the Female soldier IS (was) REQUIRED to wear a bra while in uniform. I didn't have any problems with the women that worked for me while in civilian attire. I was told by a captain (female) that the women were required to wear bras with their uniforms. Secretly I think the Captain enjoyed my discomfort making sure women wore bras... to the extent that I had to pull inspections on their personal areas... to include making sure their clothes were folded correctly - how many men know how to properly fold a bra? I sure didn't. I made no comment on the first inspection, "touched nothing" made mental notes, and figured they knew better than I, how to fold their personal clothing. Luckily I transferred out, and no longer had any female troops.

Response by SGT Gregory Yelland made Nov 13 at 2019 2:40 PM

SGT Gregory Yelland — Wed, 13 Nov 2019 14:40:22 -0500

Ok after reading the comments posted and your further clarification on the situation I gather the following: Plt sgt is female, discussed and instructed 3 Junior to her/senior to you team leaders in her decision in regard to the uniform regs pertaining to off duty attire by females and you question "Was this a lawful order?". Answer is yes, "Should she have had the male team leaders pass on her Plt sgt decision about the matter?". Answer again is "Yes". They need to understand her platoon policy. No mention is made of this being addressed due to the Plt Sgt getting the 'word from above' to do so, or if this was in response to Command Policy due to where you are stationed overseas or how long the Plt Sgt has been a member of that Command. Take the personal 'feelings and opinions" out of the situation and you might recognize the situation (bras worn in civ clothing in that area of the world) might be one she may have recently been told to 'resolve' at the lowest level of command (all of hers - which means she needed to discuss with and inform her team leaders)

Response by Capt Em Sperry made Nov 13 at 2019 11:05 PM

Capt Em Sperry — Wed, 13 Nov 2019 23:05:21 -0500

What do the regs say? What are local cultural and religious mores like? Have you requested to discuss the matter at the next highest chain of command level? Is this fight worth fighting? Who was King Pyrrhus of Epirus?

Response by SGT Felicia King made Nov 14 at 2019 8:18 AM

SGT Felicia King — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 08:18:08 -0500

You might just want to take her advice and wear a bra, she likely just trying to help. And say ‘thank you sergeant’.

Response by CPL Johnnie White made Nov 14 at 2019 7:44 PM

CPL Johnnie White — Thu, 14 Nov 2019 19:44:35 -0500

This is a strange thing as when I served 1968-1969, most of the troops were male. The only females were nurses. Hey it is what it is. I really do not know what to say. I am totally out of my element here

Response by PO1 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2019 11:38 AM

PO1 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Nov 2019 11:38:13 -0500

Have you ever heard any leader tell a male soldier to go put a pair if underwear on? I havent. Udually nothing but laughter when it was seen or heard the guy wasnt wearing any.
It's all relative!

Response by SFC Juan's Mart made Nov 16 at 2019 10:34 AM

SFC Juan's Mart — Sat, 16 Nov 2019 10:34:46 -0500

If a female soldier wants to show her tities more power to them tities

Response by SSgt Corey Shaw made Nov 17 at 2019 1:00 AM

SSgt Corey Shaw — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 01:00:33 -0500

If a male can go shirtless, there is no reason a female cannot go shirtless because of some archaic association of the female breast as a sexual object or indecent. So not wearing a bra shouldn't even be an issue. Ridiculous! The U.S. 10 Circuit Court of Appeals agrees. Time for the rest of the world to catch-up. #FreetheNipple

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 17 at 2019 9:37 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Nov 2019 21:37:57 -0500

It never ceases to amaze me; the never ending stream of people who enlist and still have no clue to what they have agreed.

Response by SPC Robert Hendrickson made Nov 25 at 2019 2:38 PM

SPC Robert Hendrickson — Mon, 25 Nov 2019 14:38:32 -0500

Be modest .. respect others and definitely

Response by A1C Stanley Kolakowski made Dec 12 at 2019 10:33 AM

A1C Stanley Kolakowski — Thu, 12 Dec 2019 10:33:01 -0500

Besides the aforementioned (and well thought out) earlier points, here's a couple of thoughts that sprang to my mind that I haven't seen in the thread... (Better late than never I suppose)

1. Are we certain that the PltSgt actually issued the request? As a guy, I'd consider it quite fortunate if I could "direct" my underlings appearance and have a convenient place to shift blame/better the optics of said request (I "ain't a stick in the mud" for telling you to conform to my belief that ladies need to wear appropriate upper undergarments, I'll claim another lady recommended you do so...)

2. Have you considered "aggressive compliance"? Whichever style of "barely there" garment you prefer/can tolerate/allows you your comfort that I'm fairly sure exists somewhere that indicate your adherence to at least the letter of the request (as long as said act of semi-defiance doesn't run afoul of the other reasons given earlier like local custom etc.)

3. Most likely, if your shirt/blouse is "snug enough" to clearly reveal that you aren't wearing a bra, then it's "snug enough" to allow indications of... other issues... that affect the female anatomy there...

Response by SGT Ronald Audas made Dec 16 at 2019 12:14 AM

SGT Ronald Audas — Mon, 16 Dec 2019 00:14:54 -0500

Unless she has a significant (distracting)bounce,let her enjoy her time off.

Response by A1C Rick Vdw made Dec 17 at 2019 4:53 PM

A1C Rick Vdw — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:53:47 -0500

The military owns you, I got wrote up for getting a sunburn

Response by A1C Rick Vdw made Dec 17 at 2019 4:58 PM

A1C Rick Vdw — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 16:58:36 -0500

Send a picture so we can judge if it was inappropriate!

Response by SPC Andrew Fox made Dec 17 at 2019 11:26 PM

SPC Andrew Fox — Tue, 17 Dec 2019 23:26:08 -0500

As former military I would say it’s situational discretion. Granted your platoon Sargent could’ve come directly to you as discussed this issue in further detail. Or have the your team lead tell to see her privately. And sadly to say she might put you team lead in trouble if taken the wrong way. Can of worms if will.

From what I’ve read you team lead is respected by you and I didn’t know how nor he did about the situation. I would’ve had you go see the platoon sarge with me.
And try to get more clarity of her issue.

Given the possible places you can be stationed in I would take that as factor of going bra less. Mid East for experience and example you should be wear one regardless of being gifted or not.

Response by LtCol Matthew Rajkovich made Dec 20 at 2019 9:29 AM

LtCol Matthew Rajkovich — Fri, 20 Dec 2019 09:29:29 -0500

A lot of times, young leaders don't communicate well or they underestimate the importance of it especially when dealing with interpretive regulations. It sounds like the PSG failed to make herself understood and is just using her rank alone to effect action. (Rank is a way, but using leadership is better.) You're in a position to ask for clarity (be sincere) but ask for clarity. Ask her what specifically makes your nipple situation a problem. Is it a unique personal thing with your body, or does she just have her own belief about public attire in general? Unfortunately, there are more questions than answers on this issue. It may end with an education for someone, which is fine as long as everyone is honest, straightforward, and mature about it. I know that sometimes that's alot to ask. If you keep going with the issue in tactful manner, you just might make a difference in you PSG's, your platoon's, and your own professional life. Keep it up.

Response by SGT Debra Jahnel made Dec 20 at 2019 1:46 PM

SGT Debra Jahnel — Fri, 20 Dec 2019 13:46:11 -0500

As a female who served in the 80s - take it up w/the platoon sergeant & then up the chain. I think for her to tell a male platoon leader to tell a female this, is outside the bounds. (If it were in uniform, maybe - in civilian attire, not even close.)
Now: I never wore a bra in the field because the pack wore sores on my shoulder. I rarely wore 1 off-duty, even in a coed barracks - bras were not fashionable or comfortable. That said - in Tunisia, I wore one all the time. In Greece, only in uniform. (H-e-double hockey sticks: I even went topless on the beach! And my command knew it.)
SO: soldier, you need to find out WHY she thought you should wear one. If it's because of local custom (or because your boobs are a distraction), you need to wear one.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 21 at 2019 11:24 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 11:24:07 -0500

Sounds like a EO complaint eating to happen.

Response by CSM Arthur La Rue made Dec 21 at 2019 12:36 PM

CSM Arthur La Rue — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 12:36:28 -0500

No. As long as you’re off duty. NCOs don’t make policy; they enforce them. Your commander is the leader to ask, not RallyPoint.

Response by SFC Nyla Newville made Dec 21 at 2019 7:39 PM

SFC Nyla Newville — Sat, 21 Dec 2019 19:39:23 -0500

I think you should any way

Response by CPL David Rasch made Dec 22 at 2019 4:55 AM

CPL David Rasch — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 04:55:30 -0500

Unless regs have changed the answer is no. An exception is what is worn on a base whose commander sets the code.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 22 at 2019 12:40 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 12:40:08 -0500

Yes she can. Because she’s a she. Your team leader however was unwise to pass this on, being male.

Not everything is in the regs.
If following orders is an issue you should not re-enlist. Meanwhile as this is far from the worst or most difficult order you may receive as a soldier you should obey it. You could perhaps cause some trouble for your hapless team leader as he’s male but you will get no traction against a female NCO.

Best advice is Roger that and drive on.

Happy Holidays all!

Response by SPC Kerry Good made Dec 22 at 2019 1:34 PM

SPC Kerry Good — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 13:34:41 -0500

I'm a 70 year old enlisted Army Infantryman(1969 in Vietnam fighting in combat over 3 different countries) & I see nothing wrong with your assessment on that young lady. I been riding my Harley since 1971 & where I've been since then would have the Army wondering what is sane or not!

Response by PO2 Steven Michaeli made Dec 22 at 2019 3:48 PM

PO2 Steven Michaeli — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 15:48:43 -0500

"Uniform of the day " is set locally so although uniform regulations do not state a bra is required it can be stated on the daily roster. In civvies it can't be required. Next time you get an order on off-duty dress state, "I don't understand. Please put the order it writing ". The order must be written with an order number and date/time stamp and issued through the S1 shop. I don't think anyone would put in the trouble to officially issue an unlawful order.

Response by LCpl Michael Cappello made Dec 22 at 2019 4:39 PM

LCpl Michael Cappello — Sun, 22 Dec 2019 16:39:02 -0500

I would think that common sense would dictate here. If the girls are not staying in formation or there is a high risk of putting someones eye out, then yes. While us men love pokies, it is NOT very lady like. You are a representative of your outfit, your branch and your country AT ALL TIMES. NOT trailer trash Barbie.

Response by SPC Melanie Vancegonzalez made Dec 23 at 2019 12:37 AM

SPC Melanie Vancegonzalez — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 00:37:23 -0500

Other people see things that you don't. While you may think you look presentable it may not be the case to those around you. Another soldier may have complained. Your platoon SGT may have noticed others around you looking at you. Your team leader may have noticed and just said your platoon SGT said it because it would sound better coming from a female and he was afraid of a possible EO complaint for saying the wrong thing. And if your unit is primarily male, as so many are, your fellow soldiers are probably not going to tell you anything either. But, I'm sure she is looking out for your best interest as annoying as it may be to you. If one person can tell you are not wearing a bra then others can too. You say you are on rotation over seas. Well, as much as we want to trust those we are stationed with not everyone can be trusted and how you look matters. Over seas is where a majority of sexual assaults happen in the military. But to answer your question, yes, she can tell you what to wear. She probably wouldn't back home but on rotation is a different matter. At the very least wear a sports bra.

Response by CMSgt Donald ONeill made Dec 23 at 2019 10:38 AM

CMSgt Donald ONeill — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 10:38:43 -0500

I think that is over stepping and out of bounds on after hours .

Response by 1SG John Highfill made Dec 23 at 2019 9:01 PM

1SG John Highfill — Mon, 23 Dec 2019 21:01:36 -0500

I don’t know why you want to know you’ll set yourself up for a sexual harassment complaint believe me it’s not worth it

Response by PVT Robert Cameron made Dec 24 at 2019 9:19 PM

PVT Robert Cameron — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:19:48 -0500

Actually no. Off duty she can dress to be comfortable. On duty, she better be dressed accordingly

Response by CSM Johnnie Moore made Dec 24 at 2019 9:47 PM

CSM Johnnie Moore — Tue, 24 Dec 2019 21:47:26 -0500

She may suggest that you wear one. note it does not take much to ruin the disaplin of a unit , She might be looking out for you welfare.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 25 at 2019 10:40 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 25 Dec 2019 10:40:13 -0500

It would be wise to peruse the unit policy boards, through each level of your command. NCO’s enforce adherence to command policy, and Army Regulations. Commanders will rightfully add to Regulations, and policies enacted by higher commands to ensure adherence to the Total Army image of Readiness and Professionalism. If there be no stated guidelines, you may end up being the reason for such a policy to be enacted. I’m not saying you’re wrong to ask your command for further clarification, but it is always advisable to comply before you complain. Be wholly armed with knowledge of your entire Command Policy before undertaking such endeavors. Soldier 24/7

Response by SPC Julio L R. made Dec 26 at 2019 9:15 AM

SPC Julio L R. — Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:15:05 -0500

Invasion of PRIVACY?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 26 at 2019 9:54 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 26 Dec 2019 09:54:21 -0500

You all are nuts. Honestly that's a SHARP complaint waiting to happen.

No one is gonna tell me what kind of damn underwear I'm wearing. Ever. I don't give a fuck. I'm not very well endowed so I can get by without a bra.

But there is nothing that says females have to wear a bra. I don't care what any of you males say. I guarantee if she pushed back on this, they'd drop it.

No one says anything if males go commando. I'm sure some do.

This weird Western obsession with sexualizing female breasts is ridiculous. Sometimes we need to "free ball" it too but in our way.

If she had to she could go get a medical professional to give her a profile that says she can't wear a bra. I would just be an asshole too.

Response by A1C Rene Provencher made Dec 26 at 2019 12:21 PM

A1C Rene Provencher — Thu, 26 Dec 2019 12:21:01 -0500

Yes she can. You represent the military. If you are away from the base and out of sight no.

Response by PO1 Charles Coffee made Dec 29 at 2019 8:43 PM

PO1 Charles Coffee — Sun, 29 Dec 2019 20:43:06 -0500

A Bra is an undergarment, just as a teeshirt, and skivees are. In uniform yes, you should wear those. Our of uniform, who cares! So now we have the underwear police!

Response by MAJ James Woods made Dec 30 at 2019 5:31 PM

MAJ James Woods — Mon, 30 Dec 2019 17:31:27 -0500

Is the reason you’re in an overseas environment wearing civilians around non US personnel on or off the military installation? For example there are US military guidelines separate from ARs for how service members will dress in civvies Otherwise it’s a question of your unit’s specific policy. Either way it can become subjective to what leaders determine is appropriate attire when off duty. Consider stateside you can dress however you want off post but you comply to post standards at the PX, commissary and MWR facilities.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 1 at 2020 9:14 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jan 2020 21:14:01 -0500

I figured all of this would have been squared away by now.

Response by SPC Timothy Rock made Jan 10 at 2020 12:29 AM

SPC Timothy Rock — Fri, 10 Jan 2020 00:29:19 -0500

I hope not. None of her business.

Response by CPL Joseph Elinger made Jan 21 at 2020 6:51 PM

CPL Joseph Elinger — Tue, 21 Jan 2020 18:51:32 -0500

Forget you. I feel sorry for "him."
OMG! She really "set him up for failure.". Your Sgt like too many men, tries too hard to walk that deadly job / mgmt / pc gender tight rope.
The first thing he should have done,
was told her that he was uncomfortable addressing this with someone of another gender & asked her if she'd be willing to sit in as she broached the issue, or if he should have a female NCO present for the talk?? If she has any character, she'd quietly sit in, if not, she'd *pass the buck.

Response by PO2 Ron Lambertson made Jan 22 at 2020 11:10 PM

PO2 Ron Lambertson — Wed, 22 Jan 2020 23:10:30 -0500

Like any order you receive, first, comply with the order. That's to protect yourself. Then, go to JAG, or legal affairs and get a valid, UCMJ related, fact based opinion from the lawyers. Don't guess, don't FEEL what's right, don't take advice from anyone other than the office that can provide you with FACTS. Go thru the process, do it by the book. There are thousands of Female officers & enlisted that need to know the correct answer to these questions. Really seems like an issue involving the female breast and the military should have been resolved long ago. I mean, DAMN, it's the year 2020. Best of luck Chastity. Just go by the book, protect yourself & career, smile, say YES SIR/YES MA'AM, Salute, and do the best job anyone could possibly do.
I'd love to know the outcome of this issue.

Response by PO2 Lawrence Janiec made Jan 23 at 2020 2:48 AM

PO2 Lawrence Janiec — Thu, 23 Jan 2020 02:48:33 -0500

This is a really old thread and question (but just now showed up on my thread alert email), and I was in the Navy, not Army, but here's my $.02. I stood Petty Officer of the Watch (POOW) on my ships at different points, and that watch is where I let people on and off the ship and carried the M1911A1 (this was the 90s) and one of my duties was to make sure people were appropriately dressed. The rules as they were at the time was that it was my discretion if something was offensive or appropriate. The OOD (Officer of the Deck) always backed me up if I turned someone around, for any reason, but that's another story.

At least when I was in, undergarments were considered "part of the uniform of the day" for any/all uniforms. More or less, there were rules/laws in place saying that in uniform I was required to wear underwear, and females wear bra/panties. Now I will also admit that the last time I wore underwear was in boot camp (since being out of uniform there was a MUCH larger offense than in the fleet) and I totally feel for you on wanting to be comfortable, especially while not on duty. Honestly, if I were in that situation you're in (I never will, since I'm staying male as long as I live), I would simply wear the bra when you leave and then just take it off when you're out in town or whatever. -shrug- Again, just my $.02.

Response by Sgt Jon Mcvay made Jan 24 at 2020 6:19 AM

Sgt Jon Mcvay — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 06:19:56 -0500

If it's not a regulation then I would say No. You do represent the Army and should dress to reflect professionalism, Pride, and respect for ones self. Now if you are drawing attention from lets say unwanted communication. She may be trying to let you know that is what has been brought to her attention. Soldiers should look out for each other, to prevent unnecessary harm. So heed the advice and follow your last order first. Better safe than sorry! don't you think?

Response by MSG Allan Davis made Jan 24 at 2020 11:39 AM

MSG Allan Davis — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 11:39:57 -0500

“ subject to local regulations and presenting a professional image” is open to interpretation and unfortunately personal opinion. To answer your question, you need to provide more information. The local standard in Korea or Europe is definitely NOT the same as the Middle East. Either way it is not an order I would give nor would I carry out. Personally I would “ take it under advisement” and let it go.

Response by SSG Nathan Bryant made Jan 24 at 2020 11:40 PM

SSG Nathan Bryant — Fri, 24 Jan 2020 23:40:35 -0500

SPC, I see many good answers here in response to your question. My answer is this.....

The real question here is not if someone can tell you to wear a bra, but more so should anyone have to tell you? That NCO is telling you for a reason. No one else can determine the "why". There's much to be considered on so many levels. I ask that you remove any emotion from the situation. Also, if you had a subordinate Soldier or even a teenage daughter, what would you want her to do? When all is said and done, I personally would want you safe, respect yourself, and uphold the good order and discipline of a Soldier. Each of us should represent all of us.

Response by SGT George Stephens made Jan 25 at 2020 8:34 AM

SGT George Stephens — Sat, 25 Jan 2020 08:34:16 -0500

This is a grey area in my opinion. If on base then remember you're always to uphold uniform regulations but there are policies in place on things that you may or may not do in civies.

Now if you in uninform, PTs I know you have to wear undergarments but in you OCPs or work uniform I do not recall reading anything.

Check AR 670-1 and then locate base policy as well.

Now if you're Reserves or Guard, 90% of them do what they want in uniform anyways but that's another conversation for another day

Response by TSgt Doreen Clark-Blake made Jan 26 at 2020 11:19 PM

TSgt Doreen Clark-Blake — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 23:19:28 -0500

I retired in 2013, I don't think the regs have changed that much. Yes, they can tell you what is inappropriate off duty. 1)You are still in the military. Just like any other part of the UCMJ, as long as you have that ID card and drawing a military paycheck. 2)Even if you may be right, pick your battles wisely. You're going to lose this one. 3)When you go up for promotion, do you want this to be part of your resume? 4)By the time you're my age (55), you are going to be sorry you didn't wear a bra.

Response by TSgt Doreen Clark-Blake made Jan 26 at 2020 11:53 PM

TSgt Doreen Clark-Blake — Sun, 26 Jan 2020 23:53:19 -0500

After I made a comment, I read a bunch of comments. You are putting way too much into your right not to wear a bra. You are in the Army. If someone in your chain of command told you you need to wear a bra, then wear a bra. Seriously, you are going to jeopardize a promotion or your career because you don't want to wear a bra. This is such a sticky situation, you're not going to know the real reason you got passed over. They're going to find something else that you're not perfect at and blame it on that.

Response by SPC Tyrus Williams made Jan 27 at 2020 7:40 AM

SPC Tyrus Williams — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 07:40:54 -0500

There is not one person in any branch of the United States Corporation’s Military who stands behind their oath because if they did, 99% of the discussions on this forum would have never been brought up. Not one servicemember honors even one word within the constitution for the United States. There is not one article or amendment of the constitution that speaks about what anyone must wear. Freedom of speech is there as well but if anyone puts you in your place and you outrank them, you want to push paper on them. All of you are only in the military for the power and control it gives you. Not one of you even care for the blood on that document. This shouldn’t even be a discussion but again this is entertainment for those of you who thrive from the exercise of a power you truly do not have.

Response by SSG James Harlow made Jan 27 at 2020 9:28 AM

SSG James Harlow — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 09:28:36 -0500

use the chain of command and talk with your Platoon Sergeant. You will then find out her reason for giving that order.

Response by MAJ Thomas Person made Jan 27 at 2020 12:57 PM

MAJ Thomas Person — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 12:57:47 -0500

I'm not sure depends on the organization. If its some sorry assed leg support unit I think not. I know they couldn't make wear me bra.

Response by MAJ Thomas Person made Jan 27 at 2020 12:59 PM

MAJ Thomas Person — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 12:59:52 -0500

I suspect it depends on if you,re in a SMU which I doubt. If you're in a sorry assed leg CSS unit then NO. I know they couldn't make me wear my bra.

Response by SPC Dennis Kregel made Jan 27 at 2020 6:43 PM

SPC Dennis Kregel — Mon, 27 Jan 2020 18:43:47 -0500

As you haven't given us some much-needed info, such as where you are currently stationed, it's difficult to answer this. The only possible reason I can perceive for this type of directive is if your lack of wearing a bra may be culturally insensitive to the local population due to cultural traditions, religious reasons or customs.

Response by SSG(P) Danielle Birtha made Jan 28 at 2020 4:07 PM

SSG(P) Danielle Birtha — Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:07:02 -0500

When I was a PSG, we were on duty 24/7/365... even when on pass, and subject to be called to duty on a moments notice.
We were also told that, if it was issued to you... it's part of the uniform, and we will ALWAYS present a professional appearance, on or off duty, because we Represent the U.S. Military.
ESPECIALLY when deployed in a foreign Nation, where we WILL comply with THEIR Customs... to prevent INTERNATIONAL INCIDENTS.
idk where you are, but if it's anywhere in the mid-east, you are ASKING to get your head cut off.
Either way... YOU make your OWN Choices... if you choose to disobey, and find an Article 15, or Courts Martial, in your face... don't cry... willful disobedience is what GETS SOLDIERS KILLED ;)

Response by MAJ John Douglas made Jan 30 at 2020 8:15 AM

MAJ John Douglas — Thu, 30 Jan 2020 08:15:50 -0500

Likely can tell her that when she is on post.

Response by Amn Reggie Keene made Feb 2 at 2020 1:55 PM

Amn Reggie Keene — Sun, 02 Feb 2020 13:55:44 -0500

If it offends you DON'T LOOK

Response by MSgt Allen Chandler made Feb 3 at 2020 3:43 AM

MSgt Allen Chandler — Mon, 03 Feb 2020 03:43:52 -0500

Wow

Response by SSG Gregg Mourizen made Feb 25 at 2020 1:37 PM

SSG Gregg Mourizen — Tue, 25 Feb 2020 13:37:25 -0500

I feel sorry for the poor male Corporal/Sargent put in the middle here. I always tried to put a female, in front to correct female uniform issues, when possible. The chances of harassment blow-back, is too huge to ignore. Especially when crossing over into civilian attire. With that said, acknowledge the correction, even if you have a problem with it. Review the dress code. Bring it to the PSG, for discussion. Most important, it is not what you see, but what everyone else sees. Said PSG, might just be doing you a favor, and there might be issues or events going on, that you do not know about.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Feb 26 at 2020 8:42 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Wed, 26 Feb 2020 20:42:36 -0500

When you entered basic, you were issued underwear. T shirts, boxers/panties and bras. You wear in uniform, what you wear what you were issued. When wearing civies, you follow local regs say you WILL WEAR. You represent the military 24/7/365. When you were growing up and going out to play, on a date or to summer camp, didn't your mother ask you if you were wearing clean underwear? Let me put it to you in a simpler way. You're wearing a T shirt, no bra. It's a really hot summer day/night, you sweat (glissen as a woman) and your T short gets soaked. What's going to attract more attention? The same will go for cold weather.

Response by SSG James Wilcox made Feb 27 at 2020 12:41 AM

SSG James Wilcox — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 00:41:05 -0500

You can tell the differences in answers. I’m winning to bet anyone who says it’s not the place of an NCO to tell a soldier how to dress isn’t from line unit. I am so glad I am now retired. We have regulations for a reason we follow orders (both lawful and direct) for a reason. If you don’t known that reason, chances are you haven’t been deployed or you were fast tracked to a senior rank without have to actually implemented the craft of leadership.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 4:34 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:34:35 -0500

No she can't make you wear something when your not on duty just as she can't tell me I cant wear a black lacy bra when I am not on duty

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 4:38 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 04:38:48 -0500

Look I feel comfortable wearing sexy lingerie, I am a Veteran.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 9:54 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 21:54:54 -0500

1) overseas I would say obviously yes

2) the way you talk about what cannot be seen sounds like you are leaving out some pertinent details

3) it also sounds like they may be leaving out some key information as to why they told you that. Those of us who have been to multiple leadership schools should be able to attest that our Doctrine is not to just say follow every order just because I said so and you never get an explanation, it actually specifically tells us to explain stuff to you. We even have a note that says we will never leave you uninformed.

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Feb 27 at 2020 10:03 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 27 Feb 2020 22:03:23 -0500

The only thing I could see them playing on the aspect of is it would look unprofessional but even that is a hard sell...

Response by Cpl Chris Hebenstreit made Feb 28 at 2020 1:21 PM

Cpl Chris Hebenstreit — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:21:38 -0500

How about you signed on the line, became General Issue, therefore you follow the order of the superior nco. So sick and tired of seeing this "me me me … my rights" bullshit in the military.

By rights, if you decide not to, they should hit you with a Article 134 catch all.

People willingly sign into the military knowing they are going to forfeit some of their "freedoms." Get over it.

Response by Cpl Chris Hebenstreit made Feb 28 at 2020 1:23 PM

Cpl Chris Hebenstreit — Fri, 28 Feb 2020 13:23:34 -0500

I don't see the problem with a SNCO correcting you. I'm tired of seeing people who willingly sign up for the military knowing they are going to forfeit some of their "rights", complain and then want to stand out as individuals.

You signed the line … you stood on the footprints … you chose to be General Issue. Fall in step with your unit or GTF out.

This PC crap is getting worse by the years.

Response by SPC Robert Medley made Feb 29 at 2020 1:45 PM

SPC Robert Medley — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 13:45:33 -0500

You fallow orders at all times.
Your on duty 247.
Either fallow orders or you don't belong in the military.....

If you want to do as you please request seperation.

Response by SPC Robert Medley made Feb 29 at 2020 1:49 PM

SPC Robert Medley — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 13:49:42 -0500

Follow**

Response by Cpl Richard Besser made Feb 29 at 2020 6:58 PM

Cpl Richard Besser — Sat, 29 Feb 2020 18:58:58 -0500

I hope I'm not out of line :) 1st. how did anyone even know you were not wearing a bra?
2nd. If you are built large enough, and (sorry) flopping around, then probably would be considered
as not wearing a bra.
3rd. Go to the person who said you need to wear a bra and simply ask why. If they point to an artile
saying you need one, then that's it.
Maybe she is just jealous :)

Response by SGT Robert Andrews made Mar 1 at 2020 6:36 AM

SGT Robert Andrews — Sun, 01 Mar 2020 06:36:17 -0500

Ar 670-1 should cover that.

Response by SSG Laird Peace made Mar 1 at 2020 1:50 PM

SSG Laird Peace — Sun, 01 Mar 2020 13:50:53 -0500

No.

Response by CPL Sarah Stilwell made Mar 2 at 2020 10:03 AM

CPL Sarah Stilwell — Mon, 02 Mar 2020 10:03:13 -0500

My unit was told we could not wear tank tops anymore because the guys were coming to the chow hall in muscle shirts that they had worn to the gym. As they went through the line to get their food from the trays, underarm hair had apparently become a concern. I think the local regulation concept applied to me the same as it would apply to you, but it would apply to everyone and would have to be published in a memorandum which could cause you some public humiliation so I think your command was trying to be more discreet in your case.

Response by Stephen Bracken made Mar 2 at 2020 4:23 PM

Stephen Bracken — Mon, 02 Mar 2020 16:23:22 -0500

Probably never had this question pop up in the military of our fathers.

Response by MSgt Janice Trojan made Mar 2 at 2020 11:44 PM

MSgt Janice Trojan — Mon, 02 Mar 2020 23:44:02 -0500

I am a female. I think yes on base. I grew up in Vegas(Las Vegas, NV). In 1984 I went to the local theater on base. In cutoff shorts, flip flops and a wife beater(A shirt) I was turned away as "obscene". Will never forget that. I now worry about nipplage. Perkiness. I am now 59 and well don't let those little bumps show! I think it's a good rule. But dang those new synthetic pants, nothing left to the imagination. Camel toe, male version etc.. In uniform and on base there should be a standard! Off base-knock your self off-unless someone pays you for what you are doing.

Response by 1SG Wayne Cannon made Mar 6 at 2020 12:40 PM

1SG Wayne Cannon — Fri, 06 Mar 2020 12:40:08 -0500

I'm not sure , just about positive they can't. But they can use at limited time suggest that you wear one. ie. If there is a company function in civilian attire. Maybe . There are some subjects in the military that are questionable and this is probably one of them. Don't wanna step on toes or say the wrong thing to the females. When i made platoon Sergeant and First Sergeant i was lucky enough to ask my Female NCOs first before i did or said the wrong things. You'd 99% of the time never research something like that. But it should be.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 8 at 2020 6:25 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 06:25:04 -0400

::stares with lack of sympathy, hands definitely not in pockets::
[this appears to be an old question ::shrugs::]
[autoformating in my reply is shit, not redoing it]

1. Commanders (CO and up) routinely restrict civilian clothing OCONUS, for many reasons.
A. If considered to be on duty at all times (on duty civ clothing regulations in effect)
B. Widespread problems on the Camp
C. Because they want to (their personal opinion of profession appearance)
D. Off-post civilian clothing policy crafted for diplomatic and cultural reasons (CAMP, ASCC, COCOM)

2. Commanders are required to post their clothing policy, and cannot be applied individually. It must
applied equally to every applicable soldier in that command, unless your decision to wear or not
wear a piece of clothing reasonably violates professional appearance sections of 670-1. Any NCO in
your chain of command reasonably correct unprofessional appearance, but only commanders may
specifically restrict a specific type of clothing (add or subtract) and most post this.

3. Doo-rags, flip flops, white t-shirts, and tank tops are routinely banned items. Additional restrictions
such as hats being removed in doors, and specific gym clothing are often in place. This sets a
precedence for command being able to restrict civilian clothing of virtually any kind.

4. If it's that important to you, ask your Team Leader to receive clarification on the policy to ensure that
Army regulation is being followed. The chain of command works both ways.
A. IF it's a posted command clothing policy, SOL.
B. IF it's the PSG's opinion that you specifically look unprofessional, SOL unless you have reason to
believe you are being treated unequally or unethically, then go to your 1SGT (may not be worth it)
C. IF the PSG is creating her own list of required civilian clothing, unapproved by CO, especially
if it's only being enforced on you, is a NO GO.

5. Besides just doing what your E-7 tells you to do when it doesn't involve UCMJ, Explicit Regulatory, or War Crime violations, which is a pretty good base line, there are other reasons built into the professional appearance standard especially on a CENTCOM AOR Army post (Don't know where you are) which also include your safety.

My Advice:
Being in the army means a certain loss of freedom; we often can't do the things that we want to do. Make your inquiry of the chain of command. Make a reasonable decision. Unless you are being treated unethically, don't make this a hill to die on. In practice the better part of garrison discipline is simply doing what you need to do to avoid giving your chain of command and fellow soldiers reason to make your life more difficult; not being that guy/girl is an underappreciated skillset.

AR-670-1
"Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore,
when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the
high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing
the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in
accordance with established norms."

3-9
b. When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a
professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for
specific mission requirements.

c. Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore,
when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the
high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing
the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in
accordance with established norms.

Response by 1SG Wayne Cannon made Mar 8 at 2020 4:53 PM

1SG Wayne Cannon — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 16:53:40 -0400

You said it was the worst thing could be said, but i didn't read any thing back about it. Other than your little statement.

Response by SGT Lenise Hamilton made Mar 8 at 2020 11:21 PM

SGT Lenise Hamilton — Sun, 08 Mar 2020 23:21:49 -0400

SPC Chastity, who's the one that focusing on your body-parts! They must be awfully thirsty, if you can't see nipples and your not wearing revealing clothes. Stay clear of them at all cost, if sounds like someone is very thirsty for you right about now. Keep under the radar as much as possible. If you must be around them quite often, just to appease the idiots stay concealed as much as you can, you don't want them to start picking at you because you may look better than them :-). Good Luck!

Response by SrA Salvador Ruiz made Mar 9 at 2020 12:21 PM

SrA Salvador Ruiz — Mon, 09 Mar 2020 12:21:20 -0400

It's your body and as long as it is not offensive in any way your body is yours.

Response by MAJ Mark Steskal made Mar 23 at 2020 2:27 PM

MAJ Mark Steskal — Mon, 23 Mar 2020 14:27:43 -0400

Do you wear a bra in uniform? Are you still a soldier when you are out of uniform?
As an Officer of Marines, I was told (no, encouraged) not to wear blue jeans off duty unless I was doing some sort of work where they would be appropriate (yard, mechanical, etc.). For three years that is what I did because it was not only easier than catching hell for it, I understood that I represented something to the public whil appearing as a civilian.
One time though, I wore PT's into an IHOP near FT Sill, OK. A man came up to me and asked if I was a real Marine. When I responded 'yes,' he told me that he was a Marine Captain and that I better get the hell out of there and never wear my PT's in public again. Your teachable moment arrived more subtly than mine did.

Response by PO1 Richard Nyberg made Mar 30 at 2020 1:11 AM

PO1 Richard Nyberg — Mon, 30 Mar 2020 01:11:59 -0400

Boy the Military sure has changed since I retired in 1988. These are questions that I never would have crossed my mind.

Response by Brad Miller made Apr 11 at 2020 2:37 PM

Brad Miller — Sat, 11 Apr 2020 14:37:20 -0400

A thought, which a lot of Americans seem to miss when overseas (I grew up in South America, so have sort of an "outsiders" view to a lot of American culture) -- what you consider professional, might be considered anywhere from less-than-professional to downright, well, there aren't any polite words for it -- depending on the local culture.
Remember, here at home or Over There, you are a walking advertisement for the US. Not just the military, but the whole country. If you ignore their customs and standards (no, I am not advocating blanket acceptance of all customs -- no hijabs, thank you!) you make ALL Americans look bad. After all, you are a guest in their house. If you show that you are at least trying to meet their customs, it will generate a LOT of good will.

Response by PO1 Michael Bruner made Apr 18 at 2020 2:31 PM

PO1 Michael Bruner — Sat, 18 Apr 2020 14:31:54 -0400

I have actually refused to issue an order like that.

Response by PO2 John Key made Apr 19 at 2020 10:27 AM

PO2 John Key — Sun, 19 Apr 2020 10:27:21 -0400

I encountered this at NATTC Millington in 1971. I was told to find a reg requiring the wearing of a bra. I could not find such a reg, but I did find a reg from 1941 requiring the wearing of a GIRDLE for WAC's.

Response by GySgt Marc Dickerson made Apr 28 at 2020 1:16 PM

GySgt Marc Dickerson — Tue, 28 Apr 2020 13:16:29 -0400

In my day they could. My favorite line was, "Your mommy and daddy will appreciate the fact that I am not letting their little angel walk around looking like some two-bit back alley gutter whore."

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 7 at 2020 9:56 AM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 07 May 2020 09:56:22 -0400

Many leaders cross the line. Instead og consulting the AR they believe that they are the AR.

Response by A1C Kevin Jander made May 13 at 2020 8:14 AM

A1C Kevin Jander — Wed, 13 May 2020 08:14:21 -0400

In civies on base? YES. Off base-off duty: it would be to accordance of the State Department and DOD while serving in a foreign country.Remember you are also an ambassador to the USA while you are there. Best bet go to your JAG office and ask the lawyers of the military law.

Response by PO3 James Ford made May 14 at 2020 8:29 AM

PO3 James Ford — Thu, 14 May 2020 08:29:57 -0400

when you join the US military you forfeit most of your constitutional rights. your only job is to be ready to fight and if need be die for your country, Americans citizens and fellow soldiers

Response by LT John Stevens made May 14 at 2020 1:39 PM

LT John Stevens — Thu, 14 May 2020 13:39:04 -0400

Being Navy, I am not an authoritative source on this; however, a superior, NCO or officer, can order you, under AR 670-1 and probably other Army regulations, to wear a bra, depending on the overall circumstances at the time and in the place where you are assigned. For example, in Suadi Arabia, Iraq, Afghanistan or another majority Muslim nation, your superior most certainly could and should issue you such an order, assuming there is not already a standing order in place. For example, if you serving as a recruiter somewhere in the San Francisco CA area, there is little legitimate reason for such an order.
Should your superior NCO issue such an order, he or she had damn-well better be in the right and have the backing of the command because issuing such an order could be interpreted to be sexist and scar the NCO's record and service. Whether right or wrong, you damn-well had better follow orders without questions, regardless of how you may feel about such orders. Even if the order is unnecessary, your failure to follow a legal order would be insubordination and punishable under the UCMJ, at a minimum in an Article 13, but possibly even more seriously than that. The fact that your superior is a female, makes her order even less controversial, and is far less likely to be second-guessed by her superiors.

Response by SFC Matthew Chipman made May 14 at 2020 4:48 PM

SFC Matthew Chipman — Thu, 14 May 2020 16:48:50 -0400

Yes he can, you are in a TOTALLY CONTROLLED COMMUNIST JOB...ONE PERSON CAN BREAK YOU OFF/DOWN and YOU HAVE NO CONTROL....Pray you have Americans and not the Dumb as Crap Control Freaks around you...I retired after 24 yrs and was told to remove my NOBAMA bumper sticker from my car as it was DISRUPTING MORAL, and they took my clearance and I retired due to it. Sad they are so corrupt and evil.

Response by MSgt Harold Harris made May 14 at 2020 11:06 PM

MSgt Harold Harris — Thu, 14 May 2020 23:06:26 -0400

I do understand you position as I was once told that I didn't have on any socks while in civilian clothes and off duty. I simply asked for the reg. be presented to me to suggest that I had to have them on. Good fight, and it sounds like somebody is just a tab bit envious.

Response by SSG Richard Brue made May 15 at 2020 5:42 AM

SSG Richard Brue — Fri, 15 May 2020 05:42:26 -0400

All I can you to do, besides AR670-1 check your post regs. Each Post Commander has his own policies. You can always add to but never take away from Regs. One more thing, pull your PSG aside and talk to her.

Response by SPC Joshua Dawson made May 16 at 2020 5:45 AM

SPC Joshua Dawson — Sat, 16 May 2020 05:45:07 -0400

Why is it that women in all aspects of life try to fight any sort of dress code? It seems that women of all ages and throughout every single stage in life try to fight their schools, their employers, and even the military about letting them dress however they want to instead of how they know full well how they are supposed to dress according to any of the rules and regulations. You're a soldier in the U.S. Army and whether you like it or not that is part of being one and all part of everything you agreed to when you signed and took the oath. This is really such a simple thing to even adhere to and why someone would even try to make this a bigger issue is beyond me, seems so simple to just shut up and just do what you're already supposed to be doing in the first place.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2020 9:53 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 May 2020 09:53:36 -0400

Technically there is no regulation for it so no you do not. Her reasoning for it is simply personnel

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 16 at 2020 9:58 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 16 May 2020 09:58:12 -0400

There is no official regulations on undergarments outside of religious use. This is a personal matter honestly. Do as you please and if she continues to talk to you about it I would look into the post regulations.

Response by GySgt John Hudson made May 17 at 2020 7:44 PM

GySgt John Hudson — Sun, 17 May 2020 19:44:28 -0400

I for one simply told my gals that you are fighting gravity all your life. Personal comfort now might bring further problems later in life. Sports bras will give you comfort and support in daily life as well as in sports/mil training events. I used information gained from the women in my life. they pretty much told me that if you want your breasts down around your waist later in life, then don't take care of yourself. Well, that becomes a matter of choice for a woman. Still, if the regulations say wear one, you need to wear one. Some women don't have large breasts, so the problem is minimal. Others have major problems in support and containment. I have lots of sisters and aunts who have problems and they say that appearance in your clothes has a lot to do with bra or no bra. You take it from there.. Also, do you want to be on the skyline with your leadership most of the time? You have a choice on what you want to do... One from the Gunny's desk.

Response by GySgt John Hudson made May 17 at 2020 7:54 PM

GySgt John Hudson — Sun, 17 May 2020 19:54:20 -0400

I will say that you did open up a subject that could be difficult and possibly offensive to a lot of women.. Dress well, conservatively, and appropriately. Enough said... Gunns

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2020 5:47 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 May 2020 17:47:47 -0400

I don’t understand how this is even a question.
Why would you want to wear something like this in the first place?
Just look professional around the people you work with
When you are alone away from coworker wear whatever you please.

Response by MSgt Tina Ellis made May 18 at 2020 7:27 PM

MSgt Tina Ellis — Mon, 18 May 2020 19:27:01 -0400

Yes you do need to wear on. It is in respect for the nation that you represent and the institution that you are affielated with.

Response by CPO Lyle Brewer` made May 18 at 2020 9:16 PM

CPO Lyle Brewer` — Mon, 18 May 2020 21:16:05 -0400

This question says "Posted 1 y ago", so I wonder why it to so long to appear here. There are a lot of good comments already. I will briefly mention one aspect: "...on rotation over seas." What Country?
Army (all branches) are invited or permitted into foreign countries by what is termed "SOFA" (Status Of Forces Agreement). Among many other things, the SOFA specifies who has legal jurisdiction and may spell out certain regulations and behavior of Service Members. The Service is responsible for Military member's behavior almost entirely. I spent two tours overseas in the Navy in Japan. Unlike being off-duty in the USA, where you can exercise your constitutional freedoms, being off-duty in a foreign country is much like being on-duty. The Senior Officer in the host country, in my case, Japan, is CNFJ, spends a lot of time, on community relations and dealing with incidents between US Service Members and the Japanese population. To step back from specific issues, the regulations for Service Members station in Germany or Italy might be entirely different than for those station in Saudi Arabia.

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made May 18 at 2020 9:27 PM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 May 2020 21:27:22 -0400

Wearing undergarments is a personal choice as far as civilian clothes. I am sure there are a number of male commentators on this post who have gone "commando" while in civilian attire. I doubt if any of them have been counseled to wear undergarments, even if the chino trousers they are wearing are a size or two smart.
With this being said, there is the idea of representing yourself appropriately while serving overseas. I would certainly have asked the PSG what was the basis for her decision to direct the wearing of a bra while in civilian clothes. Are other female soldiers in the unit getting the same directive? Are other females int he same company getting the same directive?
No matter what, we have to realize we are only getting one side of the situation. We don't know the rationale from the PSG. We don't know the guidance from the local commander. What would be appropriate attire for Taegu, Korea may not be appropriate attire for Doha. There may be other issues in play here.

Response by 1SG Patrick Sims made May 20 at 2020 3:02 PM

1SG Patrick Sims — Wed, 20 May 2020 15:02:51 -0400

When a member of the US military is off duty their wearing apparel is their own business, providing they don't mix it with military uniforms.

Response by Sgt Leonard Lamb made May 20 at 2020 5:57 PM

Sgt Leonard Lamb — Wed, 20 May 2020 17:57:48 -0400

Unless you are bearing your boobs in an inappropriate place NO. Not just NO but F NO!! She is imposing her morals not the Governments morals. I would take her to task on the matter.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made May 21 at 2020 2:30 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 21 May 2020 14:30:12 -0400

Yes, they can. In AR 670-1 every wear of uniform states "Undergarments" as part of the uniform. In DA Pam 670-1 ch 20-28(a) it states Undergarments for females is "Brassieres and underpants"

Response by CWO4 Jerry Place made May 21 at 2020 8:52 PM

CWO4 Jerry Place — Thu, 21 May 2020 20:52:02 -0400

Thye Navy has/had a simple way of dealing with these problems. Before leaving the ship, every enlisted below CPO must pass a brief inspection. If you don't pass, you don't get off the ship. In mu experience, there were many CPOs at the gangway so the inspection was pretty fast. There was almost never any reason for being denied a pass. Sailors figured it out pretty quickly and there were almost no 3-time denials. Very simple solution to a problem that seems pretty complex.

Response by Sgt Jim Mullins made May 22 at 2020 5:47 PM

Sgt Jim Mullins — Fri, 22 May 2020 17:47:59 -0400

Maybe in uniform...not sure

Response by CPT Tommy Curtis made May 22 at 2020 8:27 PM

CPT Tommy Curtis — Fri, 22 May 2020 20:27:53 -0400

That would be borderline sexual harassment in my opinion.

Response by Sgt Tom Davis made Jun 2 at 2020 3:07 PM

Sgt Tom Davis — Tue, 02 Jun 2020 15:07:19 -0400

I would say no except for special positions such as embassy duty or for particular details where appearance in an issue. Article 134 comes to mind, conduct unbecoming. An NCO with a chip on their shoulder can be a control freak and even if you have charges dismissed, it is still a pain in the butt.

Response by SFC Joseph Behmke made Jun 21 at 2020 3:42 AM

SFC Joseph Behmke — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 03:42:29 -0400

The people in your Chain of Command simply enforce the policy's set by those above them; for what ever reason. You may ask why but you still have to obey until clarified. Your Platoon/Section Leader needs to provide better information then, "because I said so". Find out what written guidance requires you to do so.

Response by LCpl Jaime Swezey made Jun 21 at 2020 11:15 AM

LCpl Jaime Swezey — Sun, 21 Jun 2020 11:15:57 -0400

While in recruit training, my drill instructors made it very clear what we could and couldn't wear. You will wear a bra, you will wear a belt if your pants have the loop holes for it, no halter tops, ect. Now I do not know if this is set for the Army.
I found this article, it is for Schofield Barracks, Hawaii but it seems to sum up what seems to be the Army Values in wearing civilian clothing.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/http://www.army.mil/article-amp/113110/usag_hi_to_enforce_new_guidelines_for_off_duty_attire

Hope it helps

USAG-HI to enforce new guidelines for off-duty attire

Response by SFC Robert Bagnall made Jun 22 at 2020 1:21 PM

SFC Robert Bagnall — Mon, 22 Jun 2020 13:21:39 -0400

Since none of us can see the shirt or outfit you were wearing its hard to judge this. My take as a former platoon sgt is 1). Plt Sgt Was this worth it 2.) What's to gain here? I cannot imagine doing this unless the outfit in some way embarrassed the military. Even then lots of ways to deal with it. All that happened here is this platoon sgt just upset a soldier and that did not need to happen. Bad choice on their leadership. JMO

Response by SSgt Judy L made Jun 23 at 2020 4:30 AM

SSgt Judy L — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 04:30:14 -0400

But really is this of importance to discuss or is it just to think about boobs? I say it’s not an issue and this is just to fill space with a story. Hmm maybe we should make sure we are wearing underwear too

Response by SFC Terry Bryant made Jun 23 at 2020 8:17 AM

SFC Terry Bryant — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 08:17:34 -0400

Unfortunately yes she can. We represent the Army and the United States on and off duty. Every word we speak, every action we take, and even how we dress is a representation of Army Values. Perception is a very powerful sense that people use. Some people see it as tacky and vulgar. Some people don't. It is the responsibility of our Army's leaders to remove ANYTHING that can be seen in a negative light within the Code of Conduct and AR-670-1. Leaders CAN and DO add to those regulations but they can't never take away. That is Army life young Soldier and it is something you have to get use too.

Response by SPC Denise Fennell made Jun 23 at 2020 1:04 PM

SPC Denise Fennell — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:04:01 -0400

It's probably easier to wear a bra to avoid conflict (my personal opinion)

Response by TSgt George Austin made Jun 23 at 2020 1:54 PM

TSgt George Austin — Tue, 23 Jun 2020 13:54:14 -0400

Well this response will upset the snowflakes, REMF's, boot lickers and such. My question for the curious supervisor would be why are you so occupied, concerned, even looking at, my chest. Just be sure you have a pocket voice recorder. Just because he has the problem does not make it your problem. Have fun. Tell him your nipples get sore when you wear one and watch his face. Then ask for a transfer because he looks at your chest and comments on it. (Which he does.) And always remember, a little power attached to a little mind is dangerous. Good luck. I came in during the bra burning times of the 70's and never complained..........:)

Response by Pvt Rip Masters made Jun 25 at 2020 10:47 AM

Pvt Rip Masters — Thu, 25 Jun 2020 10:47:46 -0400

Ya in All Services' cept Marines , female to female 5x5 / male to female Art 15 , SF.

Response by SrA Sheila Holmes made Jun 26 at 2020 8:44 AM

SrA Sheila Holmes — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 08:44:20 -0400

I’d go out and buy the most sheer bra available and then I’d buy fake nipples to poke through it and wait for someone to ‘inspect’ your bra strap.

Response by SGT Patrick Sharp made Jun 26 at 2020 2:02 PM

SGT Patrick Sharp — Fri, 26 Jun 2020 14:02:29 -0400

no she cant say that

Response by MSG Loren Tomblin made Jun 27 at 2020 3:24 PM

MSG Loren Tomblin — Sat, 27 Jun 2020 15:24:10 -0400

This may sound sexist but I had a young trooper that looked great braless in a T-shirt. She was a free spirit back in the day. Before you get on my case I remember the "Torpedo Teats" from the old movies. Natural looks are nice and stimulating to us old males. lol

Response by Cpl George Goodwin made Jun 28 at 2020 11:18 AM

Cpl George Goodwin — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 11:18:00 -0400

The over riding thing you have to remember is that once we sign our contract we are property of the military. They give us a lot of leeway but they tell us how we live our lives, specially when we are active.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Jun 28 at 2020 2:26 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Sun, 28 Jun 2020 14:26:45 -0400

I guess I now understand "triggered". The one thing I fucking HATED about the USAF was that you were governed by the sometimes capricious whim of another person, and that whim has the force of law. Get in a Jesus freak boss, and your performance reports suffer if you aren't bowing your head during his BS little prayer thing when he starts the meetings. Seen it happen, no shit. Commander said he would "take note of those disrespecting his religion" and so he did. No separation of Church and State in that arena. I can just imagine females allowed to fuck with other female's dress and apparel off duty and it doesn't seem pleasant to be the junior female. Especially since your platoon Sgt can fuck with you by remote control using the team leader as a waldo and cutout.

Response by SFC Charles E Hightower made Jun 29 at 2020 12:23 AM

SFC Charles E Hightower — Mon, 29 Jun 2020 00:23:13 -0400

If she is station in Middle East?? Yes

Response by SFC Francisco Rosario made Jun 29 at 2020 8:43 AM

SFC Francisco Rosario — Mon, 29 Jun 2020 08:43:24 -0400

Not sure if this may help. When I was an EOA in the US Army, May had a similar situation. A female instructor had told a female soldier that she needed to do the same as what you have been instructed. She was told this because she was even by the instructor while on post. The instructor cited polices such as good order and discipline. This was upheld because she was on post. However if she had been off post, then they would have had to look at the off post dress policy. Like you have been told here on RP, you need to check with the local policy for the installation that you are stationed in. Hope this helps.

Response by MSgt Bedell Toro made Jul 1 at 2020 11:16 AM

MSgt Bedell Toro — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 11:16:33 -0400

While on Active duty. Males and Females must conformed to proper military attire. And that includes civilian attire.

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 1 at 2020 6:57 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 01 Jul 2020 18:57:39 -0400

It’s an image you project as a Soldier. If you have to be told then you probably don’t get it. SMH

Response by TSgt Marie Boyd made Jul 23 at 2020 2:05 PM

TSgt Marie Boyd — Thu, 23 Jul 2020 14:05:48 -0400

Response by Sgt Joseph Brett made Jul 25 at 2020 9:50 AM

Sgt Joseph Brett — Sat, 25 Jul 2020 09:50:36 -0400

If you can notice you're not wearing a bra i can guarantee you can see nipple at times. Every branch has civilian regulations we must follow, which were made up in the 1950's. Guys probably love that you don't. She is either looking out for you or jealous of the attention you get from it.

Response by CPL Robert Echola made Aug 29 at 2020 11:27 AM

CPL Robert Echola — Sat, 29 Aug 2020 11:27:14 -0400

When I was in the Army, they issued us all the clothing we should need to accomplish our assigned tasks. Did the Army issue you bras? If they did then it would be reasonable to expect that you would wear them, if not than I think you can assume the appropriate response.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 19 at 2020 6:59 AM

CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 19 Sep 2020 06:59:18 -0400

Really. This is one of the reason why our brothers and sisters get out on the first place. People got too much time in their hands and nit pick just about everything. Pretty soon you'll be told what color of underwear you should be wearing.

Response by SGT Kevin Unruh made Oct 8 at 2020 10:40 AM

SGT Kevin Unruh — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 10:40:38 -0400

For the most part, yes your leadership can.
However, the male team leader would have been better off being accompanied by either the female PSG or another female NCO. The female NCO basically would be back up to the male ( reinforce the regs and local guidance) and frankly to cover the male NCOs butt from a SHARP incident. In the event of no other female leadership being handy then at least another NCO.
Yes it is an intrusive issue, but the commanders in the Army can set policies and the NCOs enforce them, often including "intent".
If it turns out the male team leader acted on his own ( suspicious in my mind If he did) or if you think you're singled out for some reason then talk to someone ( PSG, 1SG, Chaplain, SHARP, etc. You've been to at least a couple of classes )

To leaders reading this, I'm not saying a male leader should have a female present for every conversation. But issues as personal as this, some other witness should be present. Vice versa if a female has to correct a male ( ie maybe he like to wear shorts that are too short). Immediate on the spot is one thing, but a correction of a pattern is another.

Response by CPT Charles Creed made Oct 8 at 2020 1:50 PM

CPT Charles Creed — Thu, 08 Oct 2020 13:50:44 -0400

Curious to know how it all turned out.
Under stateside conditions, when you're off duty that's the end of the day and you're free to roam about as you please.
However, the question was posted for during a rotation overseas. With the effect of GO1 being active all the time, I believe that the PSG is within their ability to address the wearing or not wearing of a bra while 'off duty' unless it's solely while in your quarters. Whether it's for interacting with local nationals or just decency is something to be addressed with the PSG who brought up the issue; they should be able to say exactly why their expectation is to wear a bra.
I believe while in Iraq the clothing requirement while off duty if we were going to interact with locals involved pants. Men and women shouldn't show leg because it's not part of the culture. Just little additions to GO1 as we went along on top of the no drugs, sexual contact with locals, no proselytizing, no fun anywhere, etc.

Response by SSgt Paul Mulwitz made Oct 9 at 2020 10:50 AM

SSgt Paul Mulwitz — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 10:50:00 -0400

First let me say my experience in the Air Force might not be useful for someone in the Army. After reading more answers to this question than I could imagine might be appropriate I am left feeling that the order you received was not delivered very well. In my experience such an order would be accompanied with an explanation of why it was necessary. Indeed, in my 8 years of active duty in the USAF I never received a direct order. Instead what I received was statements about what my superior would like and that was enough for me to do what he wanted (there weren't any females in my chain of command). After my first three years on active duty all my immediate supervisors were commissioned officers ranging from captain to major. I would feel comfortable asking any of them for an explanation of this kind of order if I ever got one. I am sure the response from any of them would be a clear explanation of the reason behind this or any other order. In your case I would think going up your chain of command far enough to get an explanation would be within your rights as a human being. I would expect the explanation to be that local standards in your overseas location dictated this behavior to be consistent with other women there.

Response by Sgt Tr Whitford made Oct 9 at 2020 4:27 PM

Sgt Tr Whitford — Fri, 09 Oct 2020 16:27:35 -0400

As you phrased the question, the answer is, yes. Lawfully? I doubt it.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 10 at 2020 9:36 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 09:36:38 -0400

Interesting that your platoon sergeant told a male to deliver the order and that instead of delivering as if his own, he told you she told him. Overall an awkward situation. I’m glad you have been civil.

You’re asking leadership to split hairs interpreting regulations. Uniform Refs all state in one way or another to be conservative.

I did a google search and found this article that states:

“ (3) How worn. Females will wear brassieres and underpants with all uniforms.”

Frankly, in my 20 years in the Corps, civilian attire was considered our off-duty uniform. Remember, you’re a soldier 24/7/365.

Semper Fi

https://www.ar670.com/2018/12/21/undergarments/

Undergarments - AR670.com

a. Brassieres and underpants. (1) Type. Brassieres and underpants are a one-time cash allowance purchase as part of the initial clothing bag allowance. (2) Description. Brassieres and underpants may be of a commercial design, in white, black, or other neutral colors that are not readily apparent when worn under the uniform. The category of brassieres also includes sports bras. (3) How worn. Females will wear brassieres and underpants with all...

Response by SFC Laurie Schultz made Oct 10 at 2020 9:58 AM

SFC Laurie Schultz — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 09:58:13 -0400

You’re on rotation. Not at home. Put on a bra. Or at least wear a sports bra when out of your room.

Response by MSgt J D McKee made Oct 10 at 2020 3:20 PM

MSgt J D McKee — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 15:20:10 -0400

Based on my experience of females in the military, I would bet actual money that there is more to this. For example, maybe the supervisor has not much need to ever wear a bra, and the subordinate has more of a need, or, for some other reason probably known only to her, the boss wants to fuck with the SPC. Maybe, literally.

I have seen both of those circumstances play out during my time in service. I have had to move women away from each other because if I didn't, it would be perpetual conflict until I had to do something bad to the junior because the senior just would not quit unmercifully singling out the junior to take shit on all occasions..

I had a SrA with tears in her eyes offer me a BJ to get her away from her lesbian (she said, IDK) supervisor. I didn't take her offer, I couldn't have. Laugh if you want, but it was pathetic, it would have been like taking advantage of a blind deaf cripple, and I would have had to face her every day.

This was in the '80's, women had just come into my AFSC (MOS) and the woman was afraid all the other females would turn on her for making them look bad in their newly opened AFSC if she outed the boss's advances. I told my boss my suspicions, though not about the offered sexual favor, nor the lesbian advances, and got the subordinate moved.

There would have been soooo much shit if I had brought up the lesbian advances, and the supervisor would have been kicked out, the subordinate's career crippled and every female in the unit would have turned on her, and maybe, the shit explosion would have fallen all over me.

If the USAF wanted to put me in an untenable position, I felt no need to throw away my career, job, money, and life style.

A female sending a subordinate male to tell his subordinate female this shit is just asking for a complaint of almost any kind, substantiated or not, and reeks of ass-holyness. Maybe it's the male subordinate who is the SPC's boss whom the supervisor is messing with.

Maaybe, she thinks there is something going on between her male subordinate and the female SPC, and this is her sending a message to stop without actually acknowledging the relationship and therefore having to take action.

What I have written is based on my true experience of being in both the USAF Fire Department and the Security Police when they at different times during my career allowed females to enter.

Let the accusations of sexism, misogyny, probably somehow racism and definitely homophobia, and general hatred begin. Oh, and you can virtue signal at this point too, if you desire, tell me how wrong I am and how much better you would have done. If you like. Maybe not, here.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Oct 10 at 2020 3:46 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Sat, 10 Oct 2020 15:46:02 -0400

“ Nowhere in any reg does it say it’s required”

See AR 670-1 para 4-2,d

“ 4–2. Composition
The combat uniform consists of— a. Coat.
b. Trousers.
c. Undershirt.
d. Undergarments.”

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Oct 11 at 2020 7:28 AM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 07:28:18 -0400

You mention overseas deployment. The regulation references civilian attire, deployments can also have restrictions based on the are you are deployed in. However, each case requires written guidance. If the deployment for some political or other reason calls for more restrictive measures then that would justify a written directive/policy stating these restrictions and why. If they press request to speak with the CSM.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2020 10:57 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 10:57:43 -0400

Look, if she is telling you to wear one than just do it.. Its most likely been brought to her attention by others, I'm speaking from experience on this one, unfortunately. For myself and my female soliders. Is it in the regs that you can or cannot, No. That said, you probably hang out with your team and fellow soilders in your plt. On your off time; So they are commenting, saying things, ect. It sucks but the truth of the matter is many are extremely childish. She is trying to prevent bigger problems down the road.
I absolutely hate having to have that conversation with a female, but its always the same- its a distraction.. I know, I know but well there it is.
Plus you are in a host nation so your presentation matters to the civilian population.
So you can fight it if you want to, but you will just make your life more difficult. Unfortunately perception is reality and we get held to a double standard especially when it comes to AR 670.

Response by 1LT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 11 at 2020 2:32 PM

1LT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 11 Oct 2020 14:32:54 -0400

Glad I never had to deal with this BS. There were enough pertinent issues.

Response by SPC Raven Elloie made Oct 12 at 2020 10:44 AM

SPC Raven Elloie — Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:44:16 -0400

Not at all sweetheart. Especially not off duty. Maybe if she stop looking so hard she won’t be so bothered. Most annoying thing about the military... boobs are natural let them hang when you want to it’s your body

Response by SGT John Melvin made Oct 12 at 2020 11:35 AM

SGT John Melvin — Mon, 12 Oct 2020 11:35:52 -0400

I for one would like to see bras outlawed.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 12 at 2020 4:46 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:46:51 -0400

Tell her to point to the regulation they says you must wear a bra in civilians. If she cannot, tell her to die mad about it.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 13 at 2020 8:08 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 13 Oct 2020 08:08:09 -0400

As a former PLT SGT I'd have avoided the topic. Unless your attire was in some way an embarrassment to our command, Army or Country. I may mention the safety aspect if dress was revealing (I was also SHARP). This is very subjective and I would simply ask for clarification. This PLT SGT may be rather conservative (How he/she was raised) or there very well could be a local policy that you may be unaware of. I doubt that but who knows. I would also wonder if this is a fight worth fighting? My youngest daughter hates to wear one. It bothers me but I don't have to wear one so who am I to judge? She wears a sports bra when she has to wear one. Lots to ponder in this regard and I would approach it with curiosity rather than complaints.

Response by LCpl Claude Rawlins made Oct 14 at 2020 4:51 PM

LCpl Claude Rawlins — Wed, 14 Oct 2020 16:51:56 -0400

I served when the Marine Corps told me I couldn't wear jeans on liberty!!! I truly believe that while on duty, in uniform we ALL need to look like professionals!!! Off duty (out of uniform) should be personal decision. Serving with pride in our uniforms and personal appearance at all times should be a goal we all strive for!!!

Response by CSM Arthur La Rue made Oct 15 at 2020 9:40 PM

CSM Arthur La Rue — Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:40:15 -0400

...no, but your commander can do so. NCOs don’t make policy; they enforce policy.Commanders are policy makers.

Response by SSG Greg Miech made Oct 16 at 2020 1:35 AM

SSG Greg Miech — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 01:35:09 -0400

I think it is up to the individual as to what civilian clothing they are to wear and depended on their budget the image they want to project themselves as. Offending local culture or events in clothing that leaves little to the imagination is not the best way to go.

Response by CMSgt Donald ONeill made Oct 16 at 2020 8:20 AM

CMSgt Donald ONeill — Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:20:40 -0400

As long as the clothing is not offensive or demeaning telling people what to where when off duty is non call .

Response by SFC Jeff Stevenson made Oct 18 at 2020 4:35 AM

SFC Jeff Stevenson — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 04:35:39 -0400

I have always gone by the adage "pick your battles". Is this really worth fighting? What you do in your room is your business, as long as it's not illegal. Clothing preference is not a battle I would fight and fall on my sword for. As 1SG Brian Johnston said, it all depends on how higher reads the reg. Failing to comply always makes for a long and tiresome work place. Good Luck.

Response by SSgt Daniel d'Errico made Oct 18 at 2020 2:50 PM

SSgt Daniel d'Errico — Sun, 18 Oct 2020 14:50:50 -0400

In uniform, you wear what was issued to you. In civilian clothing you must still present a professional appearance. While TDY to Oklahoma, I met a young female airman, who was selected for an exercise which would simulate deploying. This would include an inspection of everyone's issued kit. She quietly confessed to me, that she had thrown away her issued underwear and never worn underwear. She asked if I could take he shopping off be to procure some. I agreed to do so. She bought underwear but it wasn't the issued color of white. I told her it had to be "white" in color but she bought what she wanted. Needless to say, she w a s written up for the wrong underwear.

Response by SPC Carmen H Ramirez made Nov 8 at 2020 3:46 PM

SPC Carmen H Ramirez — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 15:46:42 -0500

Because you are now army property to put it bluntly, you are obliged to follow orders even in civilian clothes. The reason the NCO is telling you not to go bra-less, is because there are some men who do not, or cannot control themselves. Ft bliss is an example, the sexual harassment will be heaped upon you and yes the men sometimes are pigs. If you do not want to deal with that unwanted attention, I strongly suggest you don't allow yourself to slip into a situation that will endanger you. I know it's hard to hear but, I assure you it's worth it. Maintaining a professional conservative appearance protects you. Take the time to measure the character of your peers, some will protect you and be gentlemen, others will not. I did end up helping my room mate deal with a rape by one of our peers. She trusted him, but alas he did not even try to control himself. It was awful. So please take the effort to remain out of reach to those types and yes please, put on a bra, even when in civilian clothes.

Response by SSG Clayton Lam made Nov 8 at 2020 9:06 PM

SSG Clayton Lam — Sun, 08 Nov 2020 21:06:30 -0500

Ask yourself if this is an issue really worth fighting over. Is it really a situation where you want to make your life and your PSGs life a pain. Speak privately with your PSG and ask him for his reasons behind such an order.

Response by SPC Chris Ison made Nov 9 at 2020 1:02 PM

SPC Chris Ison — Mon, 09 Nov 2020 13:02:01 -0500

No. Those words are unprofessional.

There would have to be a company or battalion SOP for civilian attire, with a specific requirement to wear "proper undergarments at all times, including support garments" (this is a bra without calling it a bra).

When I was in the Navy for liberty, to get off the ship, you had to have a shirt with a collar. Meaning no T-shirts; This was to prevent people form wearing white T-shirts, A frame t-shorts (commonly called wife beaters in today's slang), etc (which is technically and undergarment for men, and it should be worn at all times, as it protects your clothes from sweat and dead skin cells.

So the policy would have to state specifically for you to wear some form of support garment, or something to that effect.

And even then the ONLY way the NCO in question could refer to it, would be to say, "I see you are not wearing proper civilian attire, here is the current company (BN) SOP. I expect you to go home and change."

And you would need to figure out what the fuck you had done wrong (which you would know when you read "female soldiers will wear support undergarments garments all the time..."

If you continued to fail to follow the sop, he could then counsel you, and in the formal counseling statement he would reference the company (BN) SOP for civilian attire, and specifically mention the avoidance of "undergarments". If this did not correct the behavior an article 15 would be next.

It is a drawback to sexual harassment, but it is how one would handle a situation like this to protect oneself.

So you need to make a decision, do you feel like you have been sexually harassed? Or do you feel you have been treated like a soldier, and you are angry because you don't get to do what you want to do?

You also have the choice of asking for any company or BN regulation for the proper wear of civilian attire, and if there is not one, to continue to do what you want, and if said sergeant continues to insist on you wearing bra, file sexual harassment charges on his ass. One time is him trying to be nice, continued insistence on you wearing a bra shows he is constantly checking out your breasts. I would also log every time he said something about them in a notebook, with a date, time, and where you are, and what you are doing, and what you're wearing with a picture to back up your claim. If you can prove he is going out of his way to find you and talk to you about your undergarments that just further proves the point.

Response by 2LT Michael Tiedel made Nov 11 at 2020 12:49 PM

2LT Michael Tiedel — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 12:49:12 -0500

Yes, You belong to the Army 24/7. You are Government Property!

Response by SSG Kenneth Wickersham made Nov 11 at 2020 5:09 PM

SSG Kenneth Wickersham — Wed, 11 Nov 2020 17:09:11 -0500

I would suggest A) listening to 1SG Johnston"s advice as a SPC you should be learning to choose your battles wisely don't fight a battle you will lose. 2) research the regulations concerning civilian attire are covered in AR 700-84. Remember choose your battles wisely good luck to you SPC.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 12 at 2020 10:27 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 10:27:24 -0500

When it comes down to how the Army works.... She can tell you to do anything as long as it isn't illegal or immoral. If she feels not wearing a bra is unprofessional she can absolutely direct you to start wearing one because of AR 670-1. Now the final word always comes from the CDR.. With that being said a CDR can over turn anything in his unit... Because it's his! Although most CDR are smart enough not to step on NCO's toes when it comes to how they lead their squads. I will tell you this as advise. Although it seems stupid and unfair the Army will allow NCOs to lead how they see fit. The best thing I would say do, as an E-6 myself, would be to say "rgr" and keep pushing through. You won't be under her forever. Half the struggle of being in the military is the mental strength to deal with the bull shit that come with enlistment.

Response by SGM Robert Murray made Nov 12 at 2020 7:27 PM

SGM Robert Murray — Thu, 12 Nov 2020 19:27:18 -0500

Probably one of the more ignorant directives to be said to any soldier. Your team leader should have balked and refused to comply with the instructions. Sexist, disrespectful to subordinates, and skirting <subtle> towards sexual harassment by a supervisor. <Yes, she could have been indirectly hitting on you, and she made your team leader complicit.

When you said civilian clothes, your PSG has little to no impact on your attire. That's not an absolute by any means. To suggest to wear a bra? Wrong. . .absolutely wrong. Think about it.

How many actually WEAR a padded bra and one can locate a "nipple?" See that slippery slope of compromise there? A man's nipple. Makes it okay? See where I'm going here.

Your PSG better recognize. Really. . .sounds like she's indirectly hitting on you.

Response by Sgt Jim Mullins made Nov 13 at 2020 10:15 AM

Sgt Jim Mullins — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 10:15:32 -0500

Not sure but if the Regulation does not require it, you do not have to but I learned in the military if you "piss off" a superior, they will make your life miserable.

Response by MSG Jacqueline Case made Nov 13 at 2020 8:44 PM

MSG Jacqueline Case — Fri, 13 Nov 2020 20:44:38 -0500

Speaking from a female point of view if your breast are big enough for a bra and you’re not wearing one it’s tacky...wear a bra! Unless you’re looking to draw attention to yourself...which you’re obviously getting.

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 14 at 2020 11:11 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 14 Nov 2020 11:11:09 -0500

The 1sg has the best answer. But, I don't think this is the place for that specific of a question or even the context.

Have to be careful, you never know who is in here.

Response by PO2 Ken Derickson made Nov 14 at 2020 6:18 PM

PO2 Ken Derickson — Sat, 14 Nov 2020 18:18:25 -0500

Hmm! I agree with 1SG, but would add that you need to know what your duty station's interpretation of AR-670-1, since there is some ambiguity. If the duty station's interpretation is going bra-less in not consistent with a professional image and the SGT is just carrying this out, then you should comply or suffer the consequences. When you enlisted you agreed to abide by the UCMJ and all associated policies and regulations, On the other hand, if this is just the SGT's personal interpretation then that is another matter. So its seems to me you need to make sure you are on solid ground before you challenge your platoon leader. Platoon leaders and your enlisted superiors and officers are not infallible and some are absolute jerks and a-holes, but the system tends to favor them so you have to have your ducks in order and be prepared for the consequences. The question is this, is it worth all the hassle over to be bra-ed or bra-less.

Response by PO1 John Wypyszinski made Nov 15 at 2020 10:07 AM

PO1 John Wypyszinski — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 10:07:23 -0500

Pick your battles wisely, you are overseas in a different culture. My wife hammered into my thick skull the words, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?" You may very well be correct that your PSG can't tell you to wear a bra when in civilian attire, you could make a huge issue of it, get the whole chain of command involved and generate a great deal of animosity directed at yourself because of it. Maybe you'll win, but then discover that you've suddenly become unable to do anything right, first in line for crap, last for good stuff. Petty? You bet. Unprofessional? Definitely. Does it happen? I saw it every day, and admit to having had a special project or two of my own in my younger days; looking back not something I'm exactly proud of. Your PSG has a good deal of control over the amount of happiness you can enjoy, so do you want to be right? Or do you want to be happy? Think about and decide. I'd put the thing on and go with happy, give the PSG one less excuse to mess with you.

Response by GySgt Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2020 10:41 AM

GySgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 10:41:11 -0500

I want to address the conversation regarding a male delivering a uniform correction order to a female.

While a sensitive area and one where I said the female PSG had put the male Section Leader in a challenging spot, gibe we are striving for equality, I think we start by removing female and male from the statements.

Therefore, a PSG gave an order to a Section Leader who gave a soldier an order.

I have had to give uncomfortable orders to males and females alike. I agree one must really think through how to deliver such an order in order to obtain the intended result, which includes the recipient not feeling like the order was harassment, but one intended to maintain good order and discipline.

And the individual soldiers/military members must understand that they gave up the majority of their individual expression in civilian attire when they joined.

And you can bet you’re being judged in the civilian job market as well. While someone may not correct you, you can spend years wondering why you are not advancing.

So it comes down to good order and discipline, career aspirations, and individual expression. They are not all equal in priority when it comes to the workplace.

Response by SCPO Ken Badoian made Nov 15 at 2020 1:50 PM

SCPO Ken Badoian — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 13:50:03 -0500

Nips or no nips. I was training a group of women from USS Lexington in a damage control trainer, Wet, wet, wet. They asked to take of their dungaree shirts. It was over 100 on the field. They entered and did their thing. There was a five foot window. As they rubber upo against it, ops nips. They the fell out and stood on assigned numbers. That was to see if everyone was OK> Double OPS aging. Their female Ensign (01) looked and started to semi chew me out. Ensigns are not very good squeak woice and all. I was an SCPO (E8). Their female master Chief (E9) saw waht was happening and walked over to the Ensign and told her double coverage. Tee shirt and bra, tee shirt and dungaree shirt but no nipple exposing single coverage. By now all the males were just starring. I could see my E8 anchor and flying off my colors but nope, double coverage saved my day. One nip is like any nip, male or female - like no one has seen one or two (pun intended).

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Nov 15 at 2020 4:02 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 15 Nov 2020 16:02:02 -0500

If you are on post yes. Just like males can’t wear wife beaters

Response by PO1 George White made Nov 16 at 2020 12:13 PM

PO1 George White — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:13:33 -0500

From my memory on Military rules and regs, it would be an appropriate instruction, even off-duty, if the civilian attire is being worn on the confines of a military installation.

On the other hand, if the civilian attire is being worn outside the confines of a military installation (in the local Walmart, a local movie theater, etc.) then I would agree that the instruction was inappropriate.

Response by CSM Tim Bebus made Nov 16 at 2020 12:32 PM

CSM Tim Bebus — Mon, 16 Nov 2020 12:32:32 -0500

Well first of all your team leader is weak on how this was approached. If your team leader has a disagreement with the PSG the two should have had that conversation. Terrible leadership to say the PSG wants you to do this instead of just stating it for themselves. Basically team leader is saying I dont agree with the PSG but She wants me to tell you to wear a bra. Why have a team leader? With that said many regulations are written in a way that gives the reader and enforcer there own interpretation. Its not always black and white. I agree with 1SG Johnston choose your battles, is this one worth the headache, only you can decide. Me, I choose mine carefully.

Response by SP5 John Clark made Nov 17 at 2020 9:02 AM

SP5 John Clark — Tue, 17 Nov 2020 09:02:32 -0500

Your Sargent is approaching dangerous sexual harassment ground. Accept his order but report his action when safe to

Response by LTC Donell Kelly made Nov 18 at 2020 1:26 AM

LTC Donell Kelly — Wed, 18 Nov 2020 01:26:39 -0500

You did not reveal where you’re currently stationed OCONUS. The local customs & mores have a great deal to do w/how you present yourself in public is considered acceptable, & whether or not your public appearance may present a problem for your command, BUT ALSO, whether or not it presents a danger to you as a female soldier. I also have to ask, have you sat down w/your platoon Sgt in an informal & private setting & asked her to please clarify what the perceived problem is? An adult conversation, one to one, will give you information, & hopefully, as well, help your platoon Sgt see you as a mature young woman. If it turns out that a bra is the answer for all the problems in your current part of the world, say “eff it” to yourself, put on the sports bra, & get on w/life.

Response by SFC Kenneth P. Bradley made Dec 22 at 2020 4:00 PM

SFC Kenneth P. Bradley — Tue, 22 Dec 2020 16:00:50 -0500

Get the DA pam 670-1 (Wear and Appearance of the army uniform). Be professional and courteous towards your chain of command. I ran into this while at Advance NCO Academy about wearing my beret in garrison. My company 1SG at ANCOC gave me the best advice after I got chewed out by the Academy CSM. Get the Pam and approach your team leader with it and show him/her the specific part of the Pam and if the Pam says so then hopefully your team leader will support your and then go to the PSG with Team Leader, etc. YOU will have to be strong and determined. DON''T give up. You go through your Chain of Command.
NOTE: I ended up going outside the chain of command with a couple of phone calls and TRADOC ended up calling the Advanced NCO Academy and told them in no uncertain terms that in garrison soldiers are allowed to wear their normal headgear in garrison, i.e. Recruiters wore their Smokey the Bear hats, Abn Soldiers wore maroon berets, SF wore Green. When we went to the field you wore the required head gear. TRADOC ended up threatening that the TRADOC Commander would visit the Academy and speak with CSM. The CSM then told us we were allowed to wear our headgear.
So if you're right you will have to be tough and stand your ground. Hopefully it won't go that far.
I can see your PSG just looking out for your welfare and trying to establish what she thinks is the best standards for another female.

Response by Sgt Private RallyPoint Member made Dec 31 at 2020 2:30 PM

Sgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 31 Dec 2020 14:30:56 -0500

Yes. People think only the Regs matter. That is incorrect. Not every lawful order is covered in the regs and this is a lawful order

Response by PFC Jade Stone made Dec 31 at 2020 10:39 PM

PFC Jade Stone — Thu, 31 Dec 2020 22:39:12 -0500

Interesting question. First and foremost, an active duty military personnel are always on duty, even when on your own time.

Since you were called on it, someone may have said something about how you dressed, which came across as unprofessional attire.

Nevertheless, there is a dress code for which you should have learned that in boot camp...

Response by SFC Kurt Brunken made Jan 1 at 2021 3:44 PM

SFC Kurt Brunken — Fri, 01 Jan 2021 15:44:43 -0500

Depends where stationed overseas. If in Europe, cool. If in UAE, Id be a little more discreet to show respect to the locals.

Response by SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member made Jan 10 at 2021 4:59 PM

SGT(P) Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 10 Jan 2021 16:59:43 -0500

DA PAM 670-1 goes more in depth of how we are supposed to be presentable both on and off duty. With that being said, I would definitely ask for all the information from your PSG and also look up the policy letters established by your command team.

Response by Debi Borglit made Jan 10 at 2021 6:07 PM

Debi Borglit — Sun, 10 Jan 2021 18:07:01 -0500

Is it something required by the country you are stationed in?

Response by PO1 Mary Vermont made Jan 11 at 2021 10:24 AM

PO1 Mary Vermont — Mon, 11 Jan 2021 10:24:06 -0500

I spent twenty years in the military and the only time I wore a bra was when I worn whites.
Still don’t wear that torture

Response by SSG Rene Ortiz made Jan 13 at 2021 6:28 AM

SSG Rene Ortiz — Wed, 13 Jan 2021 06:28:40 -0500

No.... and if any man platoon sergeant or not would tell me to... I’ll tell him in a subtle manner to stfu and move to draw fire lol his chauvinistic self

Response by Sgt Jim Mullins made Jan 19 at 2021 5:51 PM

Sgt Jim Mullins — Tue, 19 Jan 2021 17:51:49 -0500

What do you Veterans think about the National Guard being vetted while serving in Washington, DC? A lot of these soldiers have served in wars. Makes me angry.

Response by PO1 William Mims made Jan 20 at 2021 12:46 AM

PO1 William Mims — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 00:46:13 -0500

SPC, the key words in your question are "on rotation overseas". My question would be where you are overseas; for many cultures, especially in the Middle East, where a lot of units rotate through, find it offensive. You have to remember, you are a representative of the USA when you go overseas...you can either be a good ambassador or a bad one, the choice is yours. The stereotype of "the ugly American" sadly has too much truth behind it, as too many of our fellow military, and civilians, tend to act like uncultured boors when abroad.

Finally, as others have said, is this the hill you want to "die" on? Do you want to sacrifice your career prospects over something this trivial? Think about it.

Response by SPC James Seigars made Jan 20 at 2021 2:11 AM

SPC James Seigars — Wed, 20 Jan 2021 02:11:53 -0500

As a male who was stationed overseas and in charge of six females in a Dental/Medical Battalion/Brigade (the dental battalion disbanded & we were reassigned to the medical brigade on the same base) I can tell you two things:

1. Since you are a GUEST in another country whatever you do/say and how you act reflects not only in the Military, but the ENTIRE U.S. as well. Some of these countries have a lot different views on females than we do and just the fact that people can tell you aren’t wearing a bra (regardless of what can actually be seen) can be highly disruptive to that culture. So I would take that into account before going higher in the chain of command disputing this particular order.

2. In MY OPINION, your Platoon Sergeant SHOULD NOT have had your MALE team leader issue this order regardless of her outranking him. She not only made it awkward for you & him by forcing him to discuss your private parts with you, but also opened him up to possible repercussions for having that discussion with you in the first place. SHE should have either:
1. Took you aside and told you herself about those concerns/orders or

2. Talked to a FEMALE team leader or even coworker of yours and had them discuss the situation with you woman to woman.

That is what I did when certain topics came up with my soldiers and we never had any problems. If one of them wanted to know why I gave a certain order/command (this was when I was still a sergeant) I would get the female I had talk to that particular soldier come in with them and we would all three sit and discuss & resolve the issue.

Response by Neal Chamberlain made Jan 21 at 2021 2:38 PM

Neal Chamberlain — Thu, 21 Jan 2021 14:38:12 -0500

I speak as a civilian. My son is retired Air Force ( 4 yrs active, the remainder Air National Guard AGR) and my daughter is a major i the Army National Guard. Regardless of my opinions on the subject, I have no standing experientially. It is, however, amazing the level to which women in our society come under fire from other women in things like this. In the civilian world, the harshest criticism I hear of a female invariably comes from another female. Apparently, this operated in the uniformed service world as well. At the same time, I hear in news accounts (and from my daughter) of the ongoing battle women, in uniform and civilian have for simple human respect. The sooner they star working together instead of as enemies. the sooner conversations like this go away.

Response by SFC Kenneth Goins made Mar 4 at 2021 2:32 PM

SFC Kenneth Goins — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 14:32:35 -0500

Of all the possible questions you could ask on this forum; of all the professional advice and guidance you could receive from a multitude of professional military leaders; and of all the peer experiences, opinions, and advice available to a young military member, you want to know if you should wear a bra when dressed in civilian attire.

After reading many articles presented on this forum, it's getting very difficult for me to understand if a lot of these questions and responses are serious or not.

If I, as your supervisor, were presented with this question, I would most likely tell you to call your mother and ask her if you should wear a bra with your civilian clothing or not.

You might be serious with this issue or you might be fishing for an opportunity for someone to disrespect you or give you an inappropriate response so that you can report that someone, on a public forum, sexually harassed you by telling you that you need to wear a bra, insinuating that they were staring at your chest in an inappropriate manner.

If you are seriously seeking a valid response for this issue, I will point you in the direction of your unit Equal Opportunity Representative(EOR) or whatever they are called these days (I've been out of the loop for a while now, retired in 2011).

Also, military members are required to be familiar with local unit policies on wear of clothing and appearance of its members when off-duty. This is great reading when on CQ or staff duty. These policies take into consideration traditional military values along with local customs and courtesies of where you are presently stationed. Also, as a member of the US military, you should always reflect a positive image of the United States and our military.

Often, local citizens do not see military members in uniform; their opinions and first impressions are based entirely on how you dress and conduct yourself while off-duty and in civilian attire.

I really hope that this forum were used in a professional manner. This site is a great tool to find advice, answers, and mentorship if used properly.

Good luck to you in your quest for knowledge or your practice for a future career as a comedian.

Response by PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek made Mar 4 at 2021 7:50 PM

PO2 Geoffrey Bieniek — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 19:50:56 -0500

Haha hell no...She's not her Daddy.

Response by CPL Jane Garwood made Mar 4 at 2021 10:27 PM

CPL Jane Garwood — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 22:27:44 -0500

It IS required in uniform - per regulations. Check the female clothing regulations. They state we must wear the "proper foundation garments" while in uniform. These garments include wearing both a pair of panties and a bra.
Specialist 4 Jane Garwood

Response by SSG Robert Velasco made Mar 4 at 2021 10:51 PM

SSG Robert Velasco — Thu, 04 Mar 2021 22:51:25 -0500

I think he better have documentation to back it up and not single out one female but make it a company wide announcement! Just to be fair and impartial!

Response by LCpl Rich Vail made Mar 5 at 2021 6:46 AM

LCpl Rich Vail — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 06:46:25 -0500

Your platoon Sgt is full of a whole lot of stupid. She can't dictate what clothes you wear of duty. If it ain't in the UCMJ, then she can't do it.

Response by SFC Randy Hellenbrand made Mar 5 at 2021 1:00 PM

SFC Randy Hellenbrand — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 13:00:17 -0500

I have not seen a specific reg on this. However, Uncle Sugar is--conservative. Living on a military post is pretty much considered like living in a big conservative family. Clothes are expected to be appropriate for the beach, your private PT, and for shopping. Being able to do these things on post is considered a privilege. You are expected to look good and professional as you represent our country.

So, actually, I can't answer this. I would find out what your post commander wants and expects. Best I can do.

Response by SPC Brian Stephens made Mar 5 at 2021 4:08 PM

SPC Brian Stephens — Fri, 05 Mar 2021 16:08:21 -0500

Never be so sure what people can and cannot see. I was in Target about a month ago when a tall hispanic woman passed me as I was going to checkout. She wore a thick white sweater with a collar and full sleeves but when the light hit her I could see through the yarn EVERYTHING. The shape of her breasts, her black nipples, her flat stomach, I could see it all.

Response by SP5 Eugenia Scott-Inman made Mar 6 at 2021 6:50 AM

SP5 Eugenia Scott-Inman — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 06:50:52 -0500

Opinion yes maybe sexual harrassement? Check the regulations. Also check out the duty station rules and regulations.

Response by BG John Kross made Mar 6 at 2021 10:35 AM

BG John Kross — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 10:35:11 -0500

670-1 chapter 20-18 covers wearing a bra by females on duty while in uniform by there is nothing about off duty

Response by SSgt Megan Donahue made Mar 6 at 2021 11:32 AM

SSgt Megan Donahue — Sat, 06 Mar 2021 11:32:31 -0500

I suppose she wanted you to wear a shirt too! Run around in a bathing suit top and see her have a seizure. It sounds like her problem. Go buy one of those missile tit bras that Madonna wore and ask her if she is happy now. It is weird that she noticed and felt compelled to say something in the first place.

Response by CW3 Ed Heick made Mar 7 at 2021 8:44 AM

CW3 Ed Heick — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 08:44:33 -0500

Whether you like it or not, you DID volunteer to JOIN THE ARMY, not the other way around. I would check with your CSM for the latest regulation pertaining to your situation, but I do believe there is something in AR 670-1 reference to civilian attire. Personal pride in or out of uniform while in the military separates who you are from those outside the service. Good luck

Response by COL Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 7 at 2021 10:08 AM

COL Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 10:08:49 -0500

SPC Bolden - The note from 1SG Johnston is on target. To add more context, as most soldiers want their individual freedoms (including myself), those freedoms stop while on post and more so as soon as you hit an overseas post.

The first flag on your question is your current "rotation over seas". Before taking issue with the order or "suggestion" from your NCO leadership, you may ask (politely and respectfully) for some context from the PLT SGTs perspective. I am almost certain she knows something she didnt mention to your team leader about the local customs and the installation commander's local regulations. Even if the reply s a "just 'cause", I suggest follow the advise and move on.

Response by SN Jeffrey White made Mar 7 at 2021 10:57 AM

SN Jeffrey White — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 10:57:05 -0500

I find the self entitled, that's not fair, you cant make me generation to be upsetting.
You were not hired by McDonald's, You JOINED into a MILITARY organization. Grow up.

Response by CPT Carolyn Andrews made Mar 7 at 2021 11:36 AM

CPT Carolyn Andrews — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 11:36:19 -0500

It has to do with conformity with the squad, platoon, and company.
It also has to do with the dress code for females in foreign countries.

Response by SGT Randy Houston made Mar 7 at 2021 3:59 PM

SGT Randy Houston — Sun, 07 Mar 2021 15:59:57 -0500

Your off Duty so it's up to you.

Response by BG John Kross made Mar 8 at 2021 10:36 AM

BG John Kross — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 10:36:17 -0500

You should check AR 670-1 20-28 and you'll find that you are incorrect

Response by Pvt Richard hm Baker made Mar 8 at 2021 12:34 PM

Pvt Richard hm Baker — Mon, 08 Mar 2021 12:34:20 -0500

Any higher rank can do if conduct unbecoming I Strongly suggest whomever dose that should experiment with a Bam . Oh make sure use my name pls kept sitrep marked classified sent forward JPAO-ISO. Atten. 2nd.Force Troops with cc
To 1st force Troops
MG.
General wheeler
Sf.

Response by SFC Regina Boyd made Mar 10 at 2021 7:19 PM

SFC Regina Boyd — Wed, 10 Mar 2021 19:19:46 -0500

I guess I could say, "Is it a lawful order?" I'll answer that as a definitve "NO." Although much of our freedoms are voluntarily waived while we are serving, my right to wear a bra or NOT wear a bra while on MY time, OFF-duty, is MY business. For the time being, however, my recommendation is that you observe and respect that "order" while in public places (the store, a bar, the mall, a restaurant, etc.). If I'm in the privacy of my home, backyard, frontyard and I don't wear a bra, well, hell. That order is over-reaching. Of course what you wrote is YOUR version of the story, I'm sure there's another version that we don't know about unless your PLT SGT likes staring at your chest area to see whether or not you're wearing a bra or not, which is a bit perverse...

Response by SSG Harry Outcalt made Mar 11 at 2021 4:23 AM

SSG Harry Outcalt — Thu, 11 Mar 2021 04:23:06 -0500

Welcome to your first taste of Military politics.. Your issue is not much different than males not wearing underwear while off duty, the only circumstance that it is allowed is when wearing swimming attire... Since your direct Chain of Command is suggesting it , it is a lawful suggestion not an lawful order yet.. That comes later if you choose to continue to ignore the suggestion. That being said , it's not about right or wrong it is simply your Plt Sgt. exercising her right as your Plt Sgt to oversee your appearance outside of duty, clearly she feels your lack of additional chest support is an issue, however she is suggesting and not ordering you to wear more chest protection while off duty. She could have simply counseled you on the issue as a negative counseling. IT escapes me at the moment what the UCMJ regulation is maybe UCMJ 122 i think , but it falls under failure to repair. Which is a catchall to correct so called bad behavior .. Bottomline your Plt Sgt is well within her rights as your direct Chain of Command to suggest you better support your Lady parts while off duty in civilian attire, would be no different than suggesting a male soldier wear underwear beneath his pants....

Response by SPC Jerry Jones made Mar 11 at 2021 7:23 AM

SPC Jerry Jones — Thu, 11 Mar 2021 07:23:32 -0500

I am so glad I am not serving anymore with the people in charge of their troops focusing on such petty crap as this. The military has turned into a bunch of whiney Karens, always wanting to be in other people's business just to make themselves feel better and get brownie points for stirring the pot.

Response by SSG Shawn Mcfadden made Mar 17 at 2021 5:36 PM

SSG Shawn Mcfadden — Wed, 17 Mar 2021 17:36:17 -0400

YES. WHY? AR-670-1. There is a section in that regulation that governs how you wear civilian attire. As Long as you wear the UNIFORM, you have to abide by that reg.

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 24 at 2021 6:30 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 24 Mar 2021 18:30:06 -0400

Response by CPT Mike Sims made Apr 4 at 2021 3:56 PM

CPT Mike Sims — Sun, 04 Apr 2021 15:56:28 -0400

I would never mention it unless it became a safety / security issue in a foreign environment where it became apparent that the female Soldier may not have been cognizant that her desire to be more comfortable led to an undesired reaction by the local population and unwanted attention that she did not intend to seek from male Soldiers or the local male population.

In any case female leadership within the ranks should handle this matter as a coaching / mentoring session, not as a direct order or as a bad behavior situation. Younger Troops being away from the U.S. the first time, especially those just out of high school or college do not have the same situational awareness, self-awareness or cultural awareness of their actions as do their fellow Troops and Leaders who have been in the military for a while, and have been on more than one deployment or overseas mission.

The other thing to consider as a person who has sisters, female cousins, female Troops, and a wife - always consider that there could be a medical reason too that we may not be aware of - back problems, or something like shingles that occurred on the right side of my wife's bra-line + back + rib area. Her doctor told her to stop wearing a bra until the shingles went away... which lasted about 6 weeks. So, always approach these kind of subjects as a parent or older sibling would in a coaching and mentoring manner - and always lead off if the decision is impacted because of a medical issue.

How we approach subjects as leaders is equally as important because we are training our Troops to one day become leaders too... how well they serve in that role depends on how well we perform in our roles today.

Response by SGT M C made Apr 6 at 2021 10:32 PM

SGT M C — Tue, 06 Apr 2021 22:32:45 -0400

If this is now our concerns in the military, we are truly in trouble!

Response by SGT Reuben Barrett made Apr 7 at 2021 1:48 PM

SGT Reuben Barrett — Wed, 07 Apr 2021 13:48:25 -0400

A new military to me - back in my day - when we were off duty we were not off duty - it’s a 24/7 job - appropriate professional attire was uniform of the day on or off duty - how the public views our folks in the military is utmost importance - there was no dressing down - boot camp should have laid the proper foundation for this issue - not after - I feel sure that JAG is reviewing newly drafted policy -

Response by LtCol Paul Bowen made Apr 8 at 2021 12:52 PM

LtCol Paul Bowen — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 12:52:11 -0400

Yes...for the good order and discipline that the United States Armed Forces are known for; the US Military is not a club for high school tramps.

Article 134 “General Article”...”...service discrediting conduct...”

If that is not enough then discharge for FAILURE TO ADAPT TO MILITARY LIFESTYLE.

Have a nice ARTICLE 15 Day.

Response by 1SG Jeffrey Mullett made Apr 8 at 2021 8:46 PM

1SG Jeffrey Mullett — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 20:46:30 -0400

AR 670-1 has guidelines, not requirements, due to the fact that it is nearly impossible to regulate how your Soldiers dress when not on Duty. Depending on the situation, behavior or if someone brought it to my attention.
First, I would take it down the chain of command. The Soldier's Squad Leader should be the one to handle it. Truthfully, it would have to be pretty obscene for me to make it my business.
By regulation, an NCO should point out when a Soldier is dressed inappropriately. As Active Duty Soldiers, we are on duty 24-7, but, when a Soldier is on their time, I tend to keep out of their business unless it is bad.
Is it appropriate? Yes, is it overkill?

Response by CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana made Apr 8 at 2021 11:07 PM

CPT Gurinder (Gene) Rana — Thu, 08 Apr 2021 23:07:42 -0400

If you can carry yourself professionally without wearing a bra then, wearing it may not be neccessary. However, bear in mind, it is unprofessional not to wear a bra in or out of uniform. Hence, a Platoon Sergeant has every right to correct that which he deems to be unprofessional wear in or out of uniform.

Response by 1SG William Rodman made Apr 10 at 2021 1:08 PM

1SG William Rodman — Sat, 10 Apr 2021 13:08:54 -0400

I feel sorry for the male team leader who was put in the position of discussing female undergarments with female subordinate. In today's climate, a discussion that might not go well. This is a situation that the female platoon sergeant should have handled herself, if it needed to be handled at all.

Response by CW5 William Gasaway made Apr 10 at 2021 2:21 PM

CW5 William Gasaway — Sat, 10 Apr 2021 14:21:58 -0400

Yes they have that ability. Whether it is wise or necessary is subject to debate. Before I would vote yea or nay I would like to know where you are stationed overseas. Livarno Italy is a whole different situation than Balad, Iraq. In Livarno, you would appear overdressed to the locals. I walked around a corner there and met a bunch of young women coming the other way. Some wore bras and shirts, most wore shirts and no bras and some had swimsuit bottoms and no tops. But in Balad, women were stoned to death for not wearing head covering so it really depends on where you are.
My advice is to remember you are REPRESENTING your country first and the service second in a foreign country and should bring disrespect on neither.
I was given the definition of an "UGLY AMERICAN" in Germany once. It goes like this - An ugly American is someone who can stand on a do it street corner in Paris, France and put his arm around his wife and say "Darling, if these blasted foreigners could speak English this would be a really great place."
The point that I got was that it was their country, not mine and I should respect what they want to do in their country and not just assume that we (Americans) do it right or even correctly.
Even in the Southern part of America where I came from we had a definition of a Yankee and a Damn Yankee which illlustrate this point.
--- Yankee - - Someone from up North - They are OK.
--- Damn Yankee - - Someone from up North, who moves down South and start telling us we ought to do it the way they did back home - They are irritating

Response by CMSgt Jay Pine made Apr 10 at 2021 11:12 PM

CMSgt Jay Pine — Sat, 10 Apr 2021 23:12:01 -0400

Simply put, maybe yes. Regardless, maybe the platoon Sgt should quit checking you out?! Personally, you’re off duty, so, unless your purposefully ‘tacky’ in your appearance, I don’t see a problem.

Response by Sgt Dan Baughman made Apr 13 at 2021 9:30 PM

Sgt Dan Baughman — Tue, 13 Apr 2021 21:30:18 -0400

Im sure glad that when i was in we didnt have problems such as this. It was mainly a male Marine Corps. The females were mainly in admin. We stayed as far as we could from the females in the Corps. We used to call them. BAMS. You old timers know what that means.

Response by Cpl John Payne made Apr 29 at 2021 11:03 AM

Cpl John Payne — Thu, 29 Apr 2021 11:03:58 -0400

I DON'T THINK IT WOULD MATTER WHEN YOUR OFF DUTY BUT I SAY IT WOULD
BE POPER WHEN YOUR IN UNIFORM

Response by SFC Tom Crenshaw made May 3 at 2021 11:21 AM

SFC Tom Crenshaw — Mon, 03 May 2021 11:21:26 -0400

Since Ft. Bliss just had its entire chain of command fired due to a rape and murder of a female enlisted. I would say " put a fn bra on " because provocative dress " provokes" and a superior is responsible for your safety, even though you ain't got two pennies in your pocket to rub together.

Response by SFC Allan Silberstein made May 3 at 2021 2:20 PM

SFC Allan Silberstein — Mon, 03 May 2021 14:20:23 -0400

Why go down this rabbit hole! Regardless of what the regulations say, a male sets himself up by pursuing this. If it is a problem find a female to talk to another female

Response by SGT Keith Smith made May 3 at 2021 2:24 PM

SGT Keith Smith — Mon, 03 May 2021 14:24:10 -0400

Just read up on the current regulation. 670-1 leaves it to the discretion of the commander. If your commander is male he will most likely side with your PLT SERGEANT. Who you stated was female. It’s the safest course for him to go with. The regulation keeps mentioning conservative appearance and not wearing undergarments is not normally considered conservative so my interpretation would be that yes your PLT SERGEANT can and should require you to wear under garments. I would point out that they could order you to wear the under garments provided by the military if you push this. My advice is say okay get something that comfortable but conservative and wear that when off duty. I also think your PLT SERGEANT is going through your SERGEANT, who is male, to teach him how to handle this situation. Having been in charge of females I can say this is very uncomfortable topic to address. It requires not only requires him to be very professional but very understanding of your position. If he is a good leader then you should respect the difficulty of his position and help him out if not feel free to go talk to your PLT SERGEANT. It is possible that there is a simple misunderstanding. I wouldn’t take this higher than that. Remember the key word is conservative and you would have to be firmly on the right but I do not see how.

Response by PO3 Erika Smith made May 3 at 2021 11:17 PM

PO3 Erika Smith — Mon, 03 May 2021 23:17:28 -0400

I always love wearing my bra.

Response by Jay Kapurch made May 4 at 2021 9:33 AM

Jay Kapurch — Tue, 04 May 2021 09:33:21 -0400

That's just stupid, they should be looking at your eyes when they speak to you, you're not naked, you have clothes on.

Just my opinion.

Response by SP6 James Gordon made May 4 at 2021 1:11 PM

SP6 James Gordon — Tue, 04 May 2021 13:11:39 -0400

It could be that this NCO is looking ahead. This female soilder with average size and shape breast (I'm only guessing here of course)may not be much of an issue appearance wise. However a lady who is much more endowed would be bound by the same consideration.

Response by SP5 Robert Sharpe made May 4 at 2021 8:12 PM

SP5 Robert Sharpe — Tue, 04 May 2021 20:12:48 -0400

Absolutely not.

Response by PFC James Edward VERNON jr made May 4 at 2021 8:49 PM

PFC James Edward VERNON jr — Tue, 04 May 2021 20:49:23 -0400

SHE CAN TELL YOU "WHATEVER", BUT BEING YOUR "SUPERIOR" I WOULD ADVISE DOING IT. IT IS ALL A PART OF THE "DISCIPLINE"(OR CONTROL) YOU GAVE UP WHEN YOU JOINED UP. PEACE

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made May 5 at 2021 11:31 PM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 05 May 2021 23:31:33 -0400

I wish a soldier would tell me to go put on a bra! Boy you better do some growing up bc ducks bread balls ass are all things that have been around since the fucking I've age. Do a little bit of maturing and growing up as if you've never seen a breast a day in your life and then come back to the army.

Response by MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht made May 7 at 2021 6:12 PM

MSgt Marvin Kinderknecht — Fri, 07 May 2021 18:12:47 -0400

I would say, quit staring at my breast!!

Response by MSG Don H. made May 8 at 2021 10:51 PM

MSG Don H. — Sat, 08 May 2021 22:51:01 -0400

Chastity, is there a reason that you don't wear a bra? If your PLT SGT is female, why not use the open door policy and seek to understand why your PLT SGT wants you to wear a bra? You don't say where you are serving, but I have been around the world and cultures differ, in the middle east women wear headscarves and a lot of clothes, in Thailand no one can enter certain sites with shorts or short sleeve shirts. There is also the alarming number of sexual harassment/ assaults that the Army is dealing with, I am not saying that you not wearing a bra is you asking for it but there are guys that think that way, do you want to be assaulted to prove someone is is a sh*tbag that shouldn't be around women?

Response by SrA Sheila Holmes made May 9 at 2021 3:00 AM

SrA Sheila Holmes — Sun, 09 May 2021 03:00:22 -0400

I’m really curious how all this panned out for you. I’m also furious at your body being policed on private time like this; the military has some rights -like how you represent the military on your own time, but men and women both have nipples, so unless they’re requiring all men to also wear t-shirts on private time on the off chance their nipples and terrifically offensive pubic chest hair is offending the masses, then the military really needs to grow the f* up.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made May 10 at 2021 7:04 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 10 May 2021 19:04:19 -0400

In the current climate of the Army I would definitely not tell one of my female Soldiers to wear a bra. What is your point of telling you soldier this. Some regulation will probably back him but its very weird.

Response by SFC Ricky Broadnax made May 11 at 2021 11:17 AM

SFC Ricky Broadnax — Tue, 11 May 2021 11:17:49 -0400

Hell no that's clearly sexual harassment!!!

Response by SFC Ricky Broadnax made May 11 at 2021 11:38 AM

SFC Ricky Broadnax — Tue, 11 May 2021 11:38:50 -0400

I had incident in which a female MSG told another female soldier SPC she couldn't wear the dress she had on because it showed her shape, but what it really came down to the MSG was jealous of this young soldier's figure (this was off duty in civilian clothes). If a female soldier is wearing something to revealing I would direct another female soldier NCO tell her unless it really came down to it I had to tell her myself; I would have another witness an NCO with me to let her know what she has on isn't appropriate. If no one is offended, somethings are best to be left alone. Sexual harassment is a very serious issue in today's military and society.

Response by SPC Dave Doris made May 12 at 2021 1:22 AM

SPC Dave Doris — Wed, 12 May 2021 01:22:30 -0400

I’m kind of thinking if I’m the male NCO that I don’t even want to open that can of worms considering where the Army is with sexual harassment and assault concerns. A soldier making an anonymous complaint can ruin a career

Response by SPC Chet Jr. made May 13 at 2021 10:38 AM

SPC Chet Jr. — Thu, 13 May 2021 10:38:43 -0400

Yes she can but she needs to do it. It's a female issue why did she not address you and pull you to the side?

Response by SGT Private RallyPoint Member made May 13 at 2021 8:22 PM

SGT Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 13 May 2021 20:22:32 -0400

Well I got a question. how did they know this female was not wearing a bra. Were they watching her as she dressed.

And the person complaining may be accused of sexual harassment.

Response by MAJ Ken Landgren made May 13 at 2021 9:20 PM

MAJ Ken Landgren — Thu, 13 May 2021 21:20:28 -0400

I am not smart and this might not amount to a hill of beans, but the last thing I would care about is whether you wear a bra or not amongst civilians. What next? You can't wear pants that show you have a butt crack?

Response by Col Roger Kemp made May 14 at 2021 11:03 AM

Col Roger Kemp — Fri, 14 May 2021 11:03:42 -0400

Simple answer is yes in accordance with the UCMJ. Anything that brings dishonor to the Uniformed Branch is punishable under the UCMJ. All of the service branch’s have regs that reflect that for their individual branch. Also what you say off duty, if it reflects badly, may find you in trouble with your commander too. Even retirees if they receive benefit payment can be prosecuted for their actions and /or speech.

Response by MSG GregoryT Majewski made May 16 at 2021 1:40 AM

MSG GregoryT Majewski — Sun, 16 May 2021 01:40:02 -0400

New job=No bra required. Strip clubs, (Gentlemen Club) or even Hooters. Members, don't know the local policies for your duty station. Your chain of command does.

Response by PO3 James Bobiney made May 16 at 2021 5:35 PM

PO3 James Bobiney — Sun, 16 May 2021 17:35:45 -0400

No. Period!

Response by SGT Chester Beedle made May 16 at 2021 9:47 PM

SGT Chester Beedle — Sun, 16 May 2021 21:47:14 -0400

AR 670-1 only says this about civilian clothing.
3–9.Civilian clothing
a.Civilian clothing is authorized for wear when off duty, unless the wear is prohibited by the senior commander. Commanders down to unit level may restrict the wear of civilian clothes by those Soldiers who have had their pass privileges revoked. Within the confines of a military base or a DoD installation, civilian clothing will be worn subject to local regulations.
b.When on duty in civilian clothes or off duty and outside of their personal dwelling, Army personnel will present a professional image that does not detract from the profession, unless specifically exempted by the commander for specific mission requirements.c.Soldiers are associated and identified with the Army in and out of uniform, and when on or off duty. Therefore, when civilian clothing is worn, Soldiers will ensure that their dress and personal appearance are commensurate with the high standards traditionally associated with Army service. Commanders are charged with determining and publishing the local civilian clothing policy. When on a military installation, civilian headgear will be removed indoors in accordance with established norms.

This could just be his opinion that not wearing one is not "commensurate wit the high standards traditionally associated with Army service," or that it doesnt present a professional image and detracts from the profession.
You could ask for the local civilian clothing policy that according to regulation should have been published.

DAM 670-1 does state a bra will be worn while in uniform.
20–32.Undergarmentsa.
Brassieres and underpants (female).(1)Type.Brassieres and underpants are a one-time cash allowance purchase as part of the initial clothing bag allowance.
(2)Description.Brassieres and underpants may be of a commercial design in white, black, or other neutral colors that are not readily apparent when worn under the uniform. The category of brassieres also includes sports bras.
(3)How worn.Female Soldiers will wear brassieres and underpants with all uniforms.
b.Camisole (female).(1)Type.The camisole is an optional purchase item.
(2)Description.The camisole is of a commercial design in white, black, or other neutral colors not readily apparent under the uniform.(3)How worn.(a)Female Soldiers are authorized to wear the camisole with all uniforms. The camisole is not a substitute for the tan 499 undershirt when the tan 499 undershirt is normally part of the uniform,such as the ACU, flight uniform, cold weather uniform, and so forth.(b)The camisole is not a substitute for brassieres. Female Soldiers will ensure that uniforms fit properly when wearing the camisole.

Response by 1SG Harold Piet made May 17 at 2021 10:00 AM

1SG Harold Piet — Mon, 17 May 2021 10:00:17 -0400

Go have a conversation with your PSG and ask that another be present with you. (someone that has not been in trouble) Listen carefully to what She has to say, then decide if this is worth taking to the IG or not? If not let it drop and do as you are told. You could create yourself a lot of future grief over this or maybe end your career. This is not cheerleading this is the Army, many of your personal freedoms are gone. You know this already unless you came in as an E-4. My advice is to follow directions. She did not single you out just to have someone to harass.

Response by SN Jay Perry made May 18 at 2021 11:03 PM

SN Jay Perry — Tue, 18 May 2021 23:03:43 -0400

This would be my own personal NON-answer (and it may appear slightly sexist) it would depend on the build of the female in question, and what she was wearing. If she is flat chested (to put it bluntly less than B cup), and NOT wearing something revealing I would not say something about it! Now, stating that my active duty service was prior to females being allowed aboard combatant vessels, if that female had enough to cause a distraction (or her clothing fit was) I would probably 'suggest' that she find some better supporting garments.... (I have seen females from tenders (back then the only ships that let females aboard) with a bikini top under a wife-beater (tank-top t-shirt) get asked to put on something less revealing for a shirt.

Response by 1SG Michael Farrell made May 20 at 2021 3:56 AM

1SG Michael Farrell — Thu, 20 May 2021 03:56:11 -0400

First Sergeant Johnson is absolutely correct about the uniform issue; and, you did get an answer her that you can actually use in this situation by reading his response. And, it's been a long time since this was originally posted. Personally, I'd think twice before allowing it, but only as long as it took to make a phone call to the CSM and ask if he or she had heard about it. I frankly think we all have better things to do. In today's Army -- and I've been retired for 34 years now, but in my Army as well -- soldiers can demand an answer to things that look like exaggerated interference. And when you get into the ambiguous realms of things like "will present a professional image all leaders need to seek clarification. Hence "local regulations."

Response by SFC Michael W. made Jun 20 at 2021 3:15 PM

SFC Michael W. — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 15:15:00 -0400

Okay, it does not state it directly, but it does state this in AR 670-1 dated 26 January 2021:

3–6. Uniform appearance and fit
a. Appearance.
(1) All personnel will maintain a high standard of professional dress and appearance. Uniforms will fit properly; the proper fitting of uniforms is provided in DA Pam 670 – 1. Personnel must keep uniforms clean, serviceable, and roll- pressed, as necessary. Soldiers must project a military image that leaves no doubt that they live by a common military standard and uphold military order and discipline.

Chapter 4
Combat Uniform
4–1. Authorization for wear
The combat uniform is authorized for year-round duty wear by all Soldiers, when prescribed by the commander. Some combat uniforms are classified as utility uniforms, while others are designed for a specific function. See DA Pam 670 – 1 for uniforms currently classified as combat uniforms.
4–2. Composition
The combat uniform consists of the following:
a. Coat.
b. Trousers.
c. Undershirt.
d. Undergarments.
e. Belt.
f. Socks.
g. Boots.
h. Headgear.

Bottom line: Check the Regs and SOPs for your unit and if in doubt you have a legal office which can confirm what's authorized and not authorized...hope this helps.

Response by SPC Steven Nihipali made Jul 27 at 2021 4:14 PM

SPC Steven Nihipali — Tue, 27 Jul 2021 16:14:22 -0400

Short answer: yes!
Long answer: don't be fucking stupid. You're body belongs to the gov't and the civilians who pay taxes. You don't belong to yourself, while in uniform.

Response by SGT Ruben Lozada made Oct 1 at 2022 6:39 PM

SGT Ruben Lozada — Sat, 01 Oct 2022 18:39:23 -0400

If that Female Soldier is on base, I would say yes. But, if they're off base then I would say no.

Response by SSG Jack Scott made Oct 1 at 2022 10:03 PM

SSG Jack Scott — Sat, 01 Oct 2022 22:03:44 -0400

In this day and age good luck with that as a retired Police Officer who went back to Active duty and Retired! There are certain lines I won’t cross like telling a woman she needs a bra. In the real world the Law states you must be covered it doesn’t cover undergarments! The law of the Land off post meaning State and Local Laws! Be careful of what you think your Rank gives you because it ends at the gate! Walk up to a woman soldier or not and demand she put on on bra and cause a disturbance! And it will escalate in public and draw public attention! It’s a career ender and makes you look like a perv!

Response by SPC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 2 at 2022 12:26 AM

SPC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 02 Oct 2022 00:26:34 -0400

Yes, sadly, it is part of the conduct of the soldier...you belong to the military 24/7.