Can an E7 give a counseling statement to a CW4?

CW4 Brian Haas — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:14:26 -0400

Response by CSM Darieus ZaGara made Jul 12 at 2016 5:32 PM

CSM Darieus ZaGara — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:32:58 -0400

No he cannot. Example, a platoon sergeant in a large HQ may have Col. assumed to his or her Platoon. If they fail to meet an organizational commitment such as weigh in or PT test the Plation sergeant can only inform the command.

Why would they want too?

Response by SFC Adam Potter made Jul 12 at 2016 5:56 PM

SFC Adam Potter — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 17:56:52 -0400

Only if the CW4 is gullible enough to accept it!

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 6:17 PM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:17:04 -0400

In this scenario, does the chief need some toilet paper?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 6:24 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:24:51 -0400

Yes and then the CW4 can make an airplane or a hat or a boat unless he/she is a really gifted oragamist then the skies the limit!

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 6:31 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:31:58 -0400

Yes. Depending on what the content is and what the circumstances are. An NCO can but shouldn't unless there is a command need. I cannot think of an example aside from in processing and counseling about off limits locations. But even then the NCO is acting as a voice for the commander. Not acting on their own authority.

Response by CW4 Angel C. made Jul 12 at 2016 6:44 PM

CW4 Angel C. — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:44:55 -0400

Yes brother if he's in your chain of command. Informational only. Other than that the SSG and your CDR have lost their freaking minds. Believe me I went through this at the WTU for a few months. Not only Warrants but regular officers and SGMs as well lol

Response by Capt Chris McVeigh made Jul 12 at 2016 6:45 PM

Capt Chris McVeigh — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 18:45:11 -0400

Absolutely, it's not going to do anything but he is free to give him whatever piece of paper he wants. In response, I would anticipate a verbal counseling from the CW4 to the E7 on how things actually work as he seems to have lost himself along the way. (I also like the origami idea)

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 7:00 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:00:15 -0400

The Air Force discontinued warrant officers about the time I enlisted or shortly thereafter. But, those that remained were highly respected and I don't know of any NCO that would do this.

Response by SFC Rollie Hubbard made Jul 12 at 2016 7:01 PM

SFC Rollie Hubbard — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:01:27 -0400

Well hell Chief what did you do to warrant an E-7 to rattle your skids LOL

Response by Lt Col Jim Coe made Jul 12 at 2016 7:02 PM

Lt Col Jim Coe — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:02:59 -0400

Warrant Officer is an officer, right? I see an E7 setting him or herself up for insubordination charge. Maybe there's a good reason the AF did away with WOs.

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 7:12 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:12:55 -0400

I was interviewed for a job. The interviewer said I think we have a go. But, first I have to ask, I am known to sometimes cuss when dealing with people. Can you handle that? I relied under one condition. He looked worried and asked what was that. I said if you cuss once I am allowed to cuss twice. I got the job.

Response by SSG Roger Ayscue made Jul 12 at 2016 7:53 PM

SSG Roger Ayscue — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 19:53:08 -0400

NOW I HAVE HEARD IT ALL. No....Hell No....I think that you might just get you ass kicked if you were an NCO and tried to give a disciplinary counseling to a Warrant Officer as an NCO in most all the units I was ever in....Yes, I am sure that any NCO trying that in the units I was in would get their asses kicked, first by the Warrant, then by the BC then the CSM...I would really loved to have been there, to see a situation where a Warrant got so pissed as to use the word Fuck. Most all warrants I ever met were too laid back to want their blood pressure elevated.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 8:12 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:12:25 -0400

If the E7 has no tact I suppose he could, but a face to face conversation showing respect would be the correct route. This should be done in the same manner as a SPC who needs to address an issue with a SFC.

Response by SGM Mikel Dawson made Jul 12 at 2016 8:32 PM

SGM Mikel Dawson — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 20:32:00 -0400

I guess it depends on how the day has been. Did the CW4 have nothing to do that day? Was he/she bored and need a laugh? Did he/she need better joke material for the bar after work?
Seriously- If the SFC has an issue with the CW4, then the SFC needs to respectfully address the CW4 with the issue and work it out. If the CW4 can't handle the situation, then he/she doesn't need to be a CW4.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 9:05 PM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:05:26 -0400

That's awesome.

Response by MSG Pat Colby made Jul 12 at 2016 9:07 PM

MSG Pat Colby — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:07:05 -0400

After reading the comments, Fing A Chief, Whassamattayou?!

In the Assessment portion of the 4856, you should have stated that the SFC can kiss your fucking ass. Then FRAME that Fing piece of paper!

Response by CW5 Andrew J. Foreman made Jul 12 at 2016 9:10 PM

CW5 Andrew J. Foreman — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:10:30 -0400

The question really is can any NCO give any Officer a counseling statement. The answer is NO. They have zero authority given to them to counsel any Officer. Any NCO that presume he/she can give a counseling statement to an Officer should be escorted to the CSM for some NCO counseling.
BTW I don't care about the context of the situation. If the Officer is that 8-up then the NCO should bring it to the Commander or Sr. NCO (CSM or 1SG) so the Commander, as a Officer, can take care of the issue. Keep in mind the Commander is under no obligation to get back to the NCO on how the issue was resolved.

Response by SGM Erik Marquez made Jul 12 at 2016 9:24 PM

SGM Erik Marquez — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 21:24:03 -0400

Rare and unusual for sure, and not as a performance based counseling. authority of position resides in many duty positions, and while not subordinate in rank, they may be supervised by that NCO, in that the commander assigned the NCO as the leader of that unit section.., in that the CDR placed the NCO as a section chief.. with WO and officers in the section doing specific and related duties.
Say a Commo shop at Bde level, it may have a SFC Section chief, but there are LT, CPT, WO 2, 3, 4 perform duties in that section... A WO 4 needs a counseling of record for leave in a foreign country, or riding a motorcycle, notification and acknowledgement that 20 task list items must be completed before block leave will be granted....ect. or a million other things. . A DA4856 is not rank based, there is no requirement to be of a particular rank to write one and present it to the receiver.
This scenario would mostly happen in an academic environment I would think, but could happen at in a HQ , say division level.. Though I would see it more as SGM / CSM to CW4 not SFC to CW4.
Any place a CW4 is assigned , any section they are part of, there is bound to be a supervisor or more senior leader close at hand in the section/ unit.
The senior leader might have the SFC who had direct knowledge oif the issue, good or bad produce the shell of a 4865, to include narrative and then the CDR or like performs the actually face to face counseling.

Response by SPC Kirk Gilles made Jul 12 at 2016 10:06 PM

SPC Kirk Gilles — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:06:26 -0400

No?

Response by SFC Freddie Porter made Jul 12 at 2016 10:47 PM

SFC Freddie Porter — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 22:47:56 -0400

No. A CWO4 is a commissioned officer authorized to fill a command position. You can report his/her conduct to the chain of command but that's it

Response by SSG Trevor S. made Jul 12 at 2016 11:06 PM

SSG Trevor S. — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:06:46 -0400

Aside from administrative counselings for personnel issues, I can see sworn statements being more effective for reporting actual infractions that a CW4 refuses to address or is beyond the pale of professional conduct to require a recommendation for punishment.

Response by COL John Hudson made Jul 12 at 2016 11:17 PM

COL John Hudson — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:17:14 -0400

From the IG Desk: "NO."

Response by MSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 12 at 2016 11:27 PM

MSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 12 Jul 2016 23:27:16 -0400

Shit rolls down hill not up wtf over

Response by CPT Aaron Kletzing made Jul 13 at 2016 12:18 AM

CPT Aaron Kletzing — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 00:18:30 -0400

Technically yes, but get ready for a butt chewing after you do it lol

Response by PO1 John Miller made Jul 13 at 2016 12:21 AM

PO1 John Miller — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 00:21:41 -0400

LOL!!!

Response by SFC David Pratt made Jul 13 at 2016 2:53 AM

SFC David Pratt — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 02:53:56 -0400

If he doesn't rate you, pay you, or fuck you; it really doesn't matter what he thinks.

Response by CPT Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 3:02 AM

CPT Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 03:02:36 -0400

Bout the only way it could affect you is if he rolled in up and poked you in the eye with it

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 3:49 AM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 03:49:55 -0400

He can try.
Let me get my popcorn.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 5:51 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 05:51:52 -0400

Maybe I read into it too much. NCO is also an officer, just not commissioned.

Response by CMSgt Mark Schubert made Jul 13 at 2016 8:57 AM

CMSgt Mark Schubert — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 08:57:39 -0400

I don't think it's a good idea. I would have a conversation with the supervisor of CW4 the and leave the decision to them.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 9:46 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 09:46:34 -0400

Read the top of the form itself

PRINCIPAL PURPOSE: To assist leaders in conducting and recording counseling data pertaining to subordinates

Giving it to someone other than a subordinate is bad form (pun intended)

Response by SFC Jon Van made Jul 13 at 2016 10:48 AM

SFC Jon Van — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 10:48:05 -0400

I would never have tried. Who does the chief report to? I would confront his boss which is usually a LTC. Or go thru my csm first.

Response by LTC Paul Labrador made Jul 13 at 2016 11:54 AM

LTC Paul Labrador — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 11:54:31 -0400

It would be amusing to see him try......

A CW4 is a commissioned officer. NCO's do not give counseling statements to superiors. They can do general on the spot corrections, but if it is something that would require a counseling, that E-7 needs to go to the commander.

Response by SGT Dave Tracy made Jul 13 at 2016 12:19 PM

SGT Dave Tracy — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:19:12 -0400

1st question: Can that E7 even FIND the CW4 to give him the counseling??????

Now that the tongue-in-cheek answer is out of the way, I would imagine that when dealing in the real world with a CW4, said E7 may wish to remember the sage advice of "do what your rank can handle" and let's see how that works out.

Response by CSM Richard StCyr made Jul 13 at 2016 12:36 PM

CSM Richard StCyr — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:36:43 -0400

Obviously one must have tried. To the best of my knowledge and experience it don't happen.
In the 554th EN BN which trains Engineer Officers and at one time the Sapper Course, the classes are taught by NCOs but counseling's of officers for failure to meet standards are conducted by the branch chiefs and training officers (CPTs/ Majors).
I can't imagine a commander placing an NCO in a position to waste time writing a counseling (positive or negative) that wouldn't be worth the ink used to write it.

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 12:42 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:42:34 -0400

Well that would depend, I was a squad leader in the WTU at Ft. Hood and had one Master Sergeant and a SFC in my squad, had to counsel them monthly. 3rd Squad leader had a CSM and a CPT in his squad, the CPT did not want to play well with others.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 12:46 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:46:37 -0400

.... What did you do sir?! Lol

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 12:53 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 12:53:47 -0400

I know an E8 who tried to verbally counsel a CW2. I say E8 instead of MSG because this guy was no true NCO, he was a complete shitbag that the unit carried because he was a PT stud.....

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 1:53 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 13:53:28 -0400

There has to be a story behind this.

Response by MSgt Jon P. (Pat) Hogan made Jul 13 at 2016 3:32 PM

MSgt Jon P. (Pat) Hogan — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:32:46 -0400

There have been a few times when I saw newly minted officers engage in certain activities and behaviors that would definitely ensure their butt being handed to them.

The correct way is to respectfully pull them aside, strongly advise them against the behavior, explain what is being violated and why they should listen to your advice, and that you have their back.

But after that, they were absolutely free to ignore my advice. There was never a safety issue involved, so I would be a neutral bystander afterwards. Whether or not the officer got subsequently caught had nothing to do with me.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 3:35 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:35:21 -0400

The motorcycle counseling form that I signed was from my company commander. It was not from the NCO that was our BN motorcycle mentor. In my almost 25 years of service I have not seen a junior soldier counsel a senior, when I was enlisted or now as an officer.

Response by 1SG Dennis Hicks made Jul 13 at 2016 3:41 PM

1SG Dennis Hicks — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 15:41:13 -0400

I compare that situation to a brand new Butter Bar attempting to lock the heals on a CSM, I actually witnessed that one once, The CSM respectfully asked the LT to accompany him to Battalion. I heard the BC had the CO come on up for a group hug. Some things are worth preserving for posterity. If I were a WO I would take that counseling statement, frame it and put it up on my wall. It would be like a 4 leaf clover or a unicorn fart very rare.

On a side note once a WO makes CW2 they are sort of like Bigfoot, the Lock Ness monster or and honest politician. You hear about them but nobody can ever remember seeing one.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 4:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 16:51:53 -0400

Chief,
Welcome to the world of the WTU. I was a PLT SGT and a 1SG in a WTU and have seen many officers receive counseling from SFC and even a SSG. It was shocking when I first got there and even funny to see it happen. But in some cases it's a necessary evil. We did have some (few) give kick back about it, but most just went with it because they understood the program. There was also a policy letter that supported the Cadre, and incoming brief from the BN CDR that said if they didn't want counseled by the NCO the cadre can send the 4856 upstairs to him and he would do it. Not trying to say it's ok........ That was just they way the WTU works.
On a lighter note, We needed Soldiers to stand in a COC ceremony and we were sorting out the can and can't and a SGM in the program gave me his profile and he had written "I'm a SGM I'll stand where the F--k I want. We all got a huge laugh out of it. Good Luck

Response by Capt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 5:11 PM

Capt Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:11:41 -0400

I am still laughing at this one.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 5:25 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:25:26 -0400

Warrant Officers really do exist?!

Response by SFC Michael Houlihan made Jul 13 at 2016 5:35 PM

SFC Michael Houlihan — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 17:35:44 -0400

I've heard it all now. What are they teaching in basic training?
Lets review CW4 out ranks a SFC
SFC out ranks SSG and below
CW4 is not below a SFC

Response by LTC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 6:30 PM

LTC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 18:30:44 -0400

Yes, but it won't be effective. MSG Private RallyPoint Member since I am very gifted with making origamis, I made this for you

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 6:51 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 18:51:50 -0400

I think CW5 Andrew J. Foreman answered it best. According to ADRP 6-22, developmental counseling sessions/forms are for subordinates from leaders to document various situations and performance. Informal leadership may arise from time to time enabling a subordinate the right, by virtue of experience, technical experience, etc. to address or prevent risk-related concerns (i.e., security or safety) to anyone regardless of rank, but these situations are unusual and are usually taken to commands for consideration and action, like being counseled. Holistically, the answer is no and I would assume in this situation the answer is no. Additionally, the CW4 here is likely asking the question to raise awareness that there are Soldiers, of all ranks, that don't understand where the Warrant Officer fits in their particular formation(s), not because the CW4 truly doesn’t understand leadership; likely the SFC doesn’t understand his/her role. I’ve heard and seen senior NCOs put Warrant Officers in a pejorative light and think it’s okay to treat Warrant Officers like subordinates at times, but it’s not okay and no command should think that way.

Response by SFC John Mandrioli made Jul 13 at 2016 7:27 PM

SFC John Mandrioli — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 19:27:59 -0400

Extremely entertaining thread thanks for the laughs Chief

Response by CSM Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 13 at 2016 9:17 PM

CSM Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 21:17:26 -0400

Nope

Response by CPL Jay Strickland made Jul 13 at 2016 11:15 PM

CPL Jay Strickland — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:15:28 -0400

Only when the NCO is doing so under the authority of an officer superior in rank to the CW4.

As in a general ordering a E-7 to counsel a CW4 as to what he has done wrong.

Response by MAJ Nathan P. Krump made Jul 13 at 2016 11:38 PM

MAJ Nathan P. Krump — Wed, 13 Jul 2016 23:38:42 -0400

I let a SSG counsel me a MAJ in the 10th Mountain WTB.

I retired as a MAJ with 14 yrs in the Army through the Wounded Warrior Battalion. I was assigned a SSG as my Squad Leader/Cadre. I was suffering mentally and physically on many levels and was almost always just on time or late for formation. I was verbally corrected multiple times by my squad leader but didn't care, I just couldn't get out of bed in the AM. Also, partially because I knew I was being retired in a few weeks. The last time I was late, my SSG had a prepared counseling form with all my info on it. I was more impressed that he had put in effor to square me away elevating verbal to written. Long story short, I signed it, and yes it worked, and it was the ONLY counseling statement in my shortened career that I ever received.

I knew I was wrong, I was assigned a leader who was subordinate in rank to help get me to all my medical appointments, I let him down when I should have been on time. Could I have thrown it in the trash? Of course, but then I know the BN CDR was the only one who could have counseled me in the WTB "correctly" I knew she was a busy woman with over 300 Wounded Wariors in her unit, so to save time I ate crow and corrected myself. If I wasn't wrong I wouldn't have let the session take place.

Anyway, The Army took great care of me and I retired at 100Army/100VA which came to a tax exempt figure of %75 of my 0-4 active duty paycheck. If you are wounded I recommend going through a WTB/WTU rather than your regular MEB in your unit. This assures your VA ratings are assessed and ready when you get out.
Edit

Response by SSgt John Schoonmaker made Jul 14 at 2016 12:38 AM

SSgt John Schoonmaker — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 00:38:06 -0400

No......Way! A CW4 is an OFFICER plain and simple! We lost WO's in the AF....in fact, I would have stayed in if the AF still had that option. An officer is an officer...Warrant or otherwise. Nope! You cannot school a superior. Period. You have to talk to your Senior NCO about any perceived infraction, who in-turn goes to the Commander to deal with such. That person has a commission! Just understand this! No way. When I was an SP in the AF... I patrolled and followed a vehicle containing x2 pilots...of course, officers! I had to wake the OIC of SP to come make a DUI apprehension official... They walked...even though I watched them throw half-full beers out the window of their vehicle!!! Officers...especially pilots in the AF...are held to an insanely higher standard of protection in the AF. All that expensive training has its perks! An officer is an officer..........period!

Response by SSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 1:19 AM

SSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 01:19:46 -0400

Yes! But it's not called a counseling statement. It's a Non-Punitive Letter of Correction (or, NPLOC). It's supposed to be a way for members of all ranks to communicate grievances to one another when a matter is too unapproachable to be done face-to-face. The intent is to inform, not discipline an individual and it does not get entered into any record jacket, nor does it strike against anyone, merely a letter to take home and think about how you are screwing up. It is the first step that if left unfixed will escalate to a request mast (if you are Navy/Marines, I'm sure the other branches have something similar) where you can take your grievances to a commanding officer directly without blocking or interception through the chain of command (which is most likely where the issue is).

Response by SFC Jeff Couch made Jul 14 at 2016 1:54 AM

SFC Jeff Couch — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 01:54:43 -0400

All these years I was in my CSM was right that sniffing deaseal fuel was not harmful to me ( I think my hair might be growing back) < ----cracking up at these threads good one Chief

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 2:39 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 02:39:26 -0400

Only in rare circumstances where the WO is under that NCO. I am Cadre and squad leader at my WTU as a SSG, and my subordinate soldiers range from SFC, 1sg, CSM, Cpt, Cw2, and CW3. A fellow SSG Cadre of mine has an 0-6 under him. We always give them initial counselings and are directly in charge of them, and they fall in to my left in formation. We do not abuse our authority and show all customs and courtesies. Back to the original point, only in certain circumstances would someone counsel a soldier that out ranks them. Another example is I have been in units where the rear detachment 1sg was a SSG, but had several SFCs under him. In that case that SSG would counsel those who outrank him based on his position and authority.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 5:36 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 05:36:29 -0400

So I a hospital company commanders are O3's and have soldiers from E1-O6 assigned to thier command. I was a platoon sergeant for one of those companies and on a reqular basis I had to counsel soldiers of ALL ranks for missing appointments, creating a plan to prevent the loss of leave at the end of the FY, I counseled multiple Officers for failure to report to work on time. I know the question was about WO but I would think the same would apply.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 6:09 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 06:09:25 -0400

I was a platoon sergeant at a medical center with no platoon leader. Assigned to my platoon (should have been a detachment lol) was 118 Soldiers ranking from E1-O6. On a reqular basis counseled them on many different areas. Examples: Missed appointments, failure to report on time, creating a plan to ensure they don't lose leave days at the end of the FY, changes to policies, loss of military ID card, failure to maintain family care plan , failure to complete mandatory annual training. The list goes on. I didn't counsel them because I out ranked them or was thier direct supervisor, I was the soldier in the best position to ensure those Soldiers and Officers were being setup for success. And honestly E1-E7,O1-O3&O5-O6's were great to work with NEVER hassled me complained about being counseled by an E7 and were always professional. It was EVERY O4 (MAJ) that made my job very difficult.

Response by SCPO Jason McLaughlin made Jul 14 at 2016 7:12 AM

SCPO Jason McLaughlin — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 07:12:33 -0400

Either the SFC is a real tool, or the Command climate wherever you are is in the crapper. Whoever heard of a SNCO and CW/CWO not being able to have a sit-down/coffee if there is an issue that needs to be hashed out?

Response by SFC Wayne Theilen made Jul 14 at 2016 10:35 AM

SFC Wayne Theilen — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 10:35:00 -0400

Sure why not. Toilet paper is expensive.

Response by CW2 George Lansford made Jul 14 at 2016 11:03 AM

CW2 George Lansford — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 11:03:37 -0400

No. Plain and simple. Any CWO that would actually sit down for a counseling should have his/her head examined.

Response by MAJ Rayner Lotton made Jul 14 at 2016 11:05 AM

MAJ Rayner Lotton — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 11:05:24 -0400

Has he been seen by psych and does he have a Napoleonic complex

Response by SGM Thomas Raymann made Jul 14 at 2016 12:08 PM

SGM Thomas Raymann — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 12:08:50 -0400

was this a serious question?

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 12:17 PM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 12:17:18 -0400

NO!

Response by CPT Pedro Meza made Jul 14 at 2016 2:40 PM

CPT Pedro Meza — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 14:40:43 -0400

Here is the answer, E-7 gives a CW4 a counseling statement and the CW4 gives the E-7 a kick in the ass of his chopper while in flight!

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Jul 14 at 2016 2:44 PM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 14:44:48 -0400

I have a good story for this. In 1984 a 1st LT came into the Armament workshop and demanded that we work on his tank ahead of all our other jobs; when the shop NCOIC told him know he straight to the Chief Hinky desk and demanded that it be done ASAP. Again he was told no so the 1st LT told him to stand up and come to attention when speaking to an officer. Chief told us to stop all jobs and get his tank out of the workshop. Then Chief Henky went to DISCOM and turned in his resignation. When the tank was finished the 1st LT gave everyone a in the shop a public apology and Chief went to work for General Dynamics for the XM1 Tank project... 1984 Co. D 27th Maint. He was the best Warrant Officer I ever worked for.

Response by SFC Joseph Weber made Jul 14 at 2016 4:01 PM

SFC Joseph Weber — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:01:05 -0400

Sure thing. I used to give my Chief all kinds of stuff. He wanted the trash can and shredder by his desk. I was a terrible shot, just became easier to give to him so he could get the assist.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 4:31 PM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 16:31:09 -0400

No, It is not in the enlisted area so they have to be counseled by an officer

Response by SFC Jimmy Simmons made Jul 14 at 2016 6:45 PM

SFC Jimmy Simmons — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 18:45:52 -0400

Nope, but he can darn sure help him understand how his hydromechanical unit works!!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 14 at 2016 9:47 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 14 Jul 2016 21:47:16 -0400

With the answers that I saw, almost everyone said NO... So my question is what if the Counseling was to be a positive one? On the other hand everyone is quick to throw the NO out there. But let's say an NCO wanted to recommend and O for an Award, can that be done, and accepted/approved?

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2016 10:05 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:05:55 -0400

When you do, PLEASE let me know where and when so I can pop some popcorn, pull up a chair, and watch what happens! It will be incredible!!!!

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2016 10:08 AM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 10:08:27 -0400

When you do, PLEASE let me know where and when so I can pop some popcorn, pull up a chair and watch what happens! It will be awesome!!!!!!!

Response by SFC Alfred Galloway made Jul 15 at 2016 11:38 AM

SFC Alfred Galloway — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 11:38:27 -0400

Simple answer no. If however the E-7 felt that counselling needed he could take it to his 1SG who would review the issues and potentially take it to the CO, or Staff Section leader (G-2 or some similar situation) and they can handle it, but woe be unto that E-7 for retaliation purposes should the CW4 decide to return the favor.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 15 at 2016 12:07 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 12:07:57 -0400

Officially no, of course not... but we don't need paper to counsel peers or officers. I mean this coming from a position of respect and trying to help someone who may be stepping on his crank or who's performance is hurting the unit.

Response by PO1 Jack Howell made Jul 15 at 2016 8:28 PM

PO1 Jack Howell — Fri, 15 Jul 2016 20:28:01 -0400

Yes. In that case it would mean that the E-7 has positional authority. The one thing that he/she would have to be mindful of the warrant officer's rank.

Response by MSgt Mark Bucher made Jul 16 at 2016 2:06 AM

MSgt Mark Bucher — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 02:06:59 -0400

I chewed out my fair share of officers.

Response by SGT Frank Pritchett made Jul 16 at 2016 8:45 AM

SGT Frank Pritchett — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 08:45:08 -0400

Lets remember the NCO Corp is a professional organization and is meant to support each other; in my feelings when an NCO has to write a counseling statement on another NCO then we have just failed as an NCO. A Warrant Officer is knowledgeable branch but he may not know everything; every now and then we need a kick in the ass but not to be humiliated in front of others. Am I wrong?

Response by CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) made Jul 16 at 2016 5:52 PM

CW4 Russ Hamilton (Ret) — Sat, 16 Jul 2016 17:52:50 -0400

Preposterous. Absolutely preposterous. Almost as bad as when a 1SG once covered my cane with yellow warning tape.

Response by LT Carl Martin made Jul 17 at 2016 10:20 AM

LT Carl Martin — Sun, 17 Jul 2016 10:20:58 -0400

This must be an Army issue, because I have never seen or dealt with this in the Navy or Marine Corps. However in the Navy, I believe this is a very unlikely situation because even if it did exist, with the E7 (Chief Petty Officer) in a positional authority, he would report it to his Chain of Command and would let the Officer Ranks handle it, but only if the Warrant Officer (CWO2 - CWO5) refused to listen and prevented the CPO from performing his duties. The Navy's Warrant Officers are grown from the Chief Petty Officer (E7-E9) ranks, and the Chief brotherhood is still instilled in the CWO ranks. Because of this brotherhood, this is a very unlikely situation.

Response by ENS Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 18 at 2016 2:09 AM

ENS Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 18 Jul 2016 02:09:28 -0400

Not unless the E7 is in charge of the CW4. It would be inappropriate. The E7 should take it up with a full-fledged Officer.

Response by CW4 Larry Curtis made Jul 18 at 2016 5:58 AM

CW4 Larry Curtis — Mon, 18 Jul 2016 05:58:04 -0400

I suppose he COULD as long as he brings his football bat along and can kick an extra home run with it. Just sayin'...

Response by SSG Private RallyPoint Member made Jul 26 at 2016 10:05 PM

SSG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 26 Jul 2016 22:05:30 -0400

Yes. Actually I have been tasked by my Executive Officer to give him a monthly counseling. There are no rank requirements as far as who can give a counseling, also it is used as a mentorship and to assist in training and expanding the officers knowledge of the job your in.

Response by SFC Oswald Williams made Jul 30 at 2016 10:50 AM

SFC Oswald Williams — Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:50:28 -0400

I believe the correct approach here Should be that the senior NCO can and should have a professional conversation with chief when he finds him

Response by CW4 Craig Dehls made Aug 7 at 2016 3:45 PM

CW4 Craig Dehls — Sun, 07 Aug 2016 15:45:34 -0400

Hell no!! If anything it would be the W4 giving the E7 a counseling session not a statement.

Response by CW4 Scott Kjendlie made Aug 9 at 2016 6:48 AM

CW4 Scott Kjendlie — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 06:48:33 -0400

I will say the answer is yes, so that the CW4 may check for spelling or grammatical errors.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 7:42 AM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 07:42:41 -0400

Really? Can a E7 give a counseling statement to a O-4/5? I do know the W4 can give a counseling statement to an E7 though.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:41 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:41:50 -0400

Probably if ordered to do so by the Commander if the Commander is too lazy to do it themselves but Uh hopefully just a positive counseling statement

Response by CW2 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:46 AM

CW2 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:46:37 -0400

Absolutely inappropriate. If an E7 has an issue with a CW4 he should address the problem through his NCO chain to the CW4's rater.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:51 AM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:51:28 -0400

I recently experienced something similar to this in my unit. Do to a medical limitation I was unable to exercise and taped out 1% over. The question was who was going to counsel me. I didn't have any influence in the decision but my commander determined it had to be a higher ranking officer. In this case since I am a field grade mine will come from our XO (Major ). I think this is because you cannot counsel up only down.

Response by LTJG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:55 AM

LTJG Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 08:55:00 -0400

This is the funniest thing I've seen in awhile.

Response by CW3 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 8:21 PM

CW3 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 20:21:00 -0400

I've never seen an E7 dumb enough to try it. If they have made SFC that level of stupidity may be out of their lane.

Response by CW5 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2016 11:58 PM

CW5 Private RallyPoint Member — Tue, 09 Aug 2016 23:58:05 -0400

Is this a serious question?

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 1:22 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 01:22:22 -0400

According to military doctrine, anybody can write up anybody regardless of rank

Response by CWO3 Jeff Metcalf made Aug 10 at 2016 2:07 AM

CWO3 Jeff Metcalf — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 02:07:11 -0400

If a Navy CPO were to write me a counseling, I would give him/her a written counseling for fraud, waste, and abuse of government resources (pen, paper, and my time). Seriously though, I agree with CWO5 Foreman. If the CWO is that jacked up, it is the E7's responsibility to take the matter up the chain for resolution at the appropriate level.

Response by CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 10 at 2016 7:48 AM

CWO4 Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 10 Aug 2016 07:48:59 -0400

Can any enlisted service member counsel an officer? No. Can they advise the officer? Yes.

Response by CSM Charles Hayden made Aug 21 at 2016 11:28 PM

CSM Charles Hayden — Sun, 21 Aug 2016 23:28:30 -0400

Sure, and so can I!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 1 at 2016 11:17 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Thu, 01 Sep 2016 11:17:09 -0400

Chief, if you don't know, turn in your rank.

Response by SFC Brian Chambers made Sep 13 at 2016 9:03 AM

SFC Brian Chambers — Tue, 13 Sep 2016 09:03:43 -0400

Never happened in my time!
Sir, are you the pa named ranger Haas?

Response by SFC Craig Vaughn made Sep 21 at 2016 9:19 AM

SFC Craig Vaughn — Wed, 21 Sep 2016 09:19:38 -0400

Yes

Response by SSG(P) Auston Terry made Sep 28 at 2016 8:16 AM

SSG(P) Auston Terry — Wed, 28 Sep 2016 08:16:55 -0400

If you mean on a 4856: The answer is a resounding no.
On the form under "principle purpose" is the answer.
That form has read that way since at least 1999 in FM 22-100

Which as a very random aside was the last leadership manual the army used that contained the full text of the Constiution.

I seem to recall in FM

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Sep 30 at 2016 10:45 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Fri, 30 Sep 2016 10:45:49 -0400

I didn't read 146 answers so far, but, are you serious with this question?

Response by SFC Malcolm Haugen made Oct 5 at 2016 10:35 AM

SFC Malcolm Haugen — Wed, 05 Oct 2016 10:35:34 -0400

Depends on the arraignment of the MTOE. It also depends upon special projects structure.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 7 at 2016 7:29 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 07 Oct 2016 07:29:23 -0400

Anyone can give a counseling, you are getting one right now.

Response by SFC Robert Lee made Oct 30 at 2016 10:04 AM

SFC Robert Lee — Sun, 30 Oct 2016 10:04:08 -0400

Why would he unless he is in a 1SG position.

Response by CW5 David Koch made Nov 22 at 2016 7:42 PM

CW5 David Koch — Tue, 22 Nov 2016 19:42:54 -0500

NO!

Response by CW4 James Hoffman made Nov 29 at 2016 6:53 PM

CW4 James Hoffman — Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:53:25 -0500

No, a subordinate can not write a counseling statement on a superior.

Response by SFC Joseph Scott made Dec 22 at 2016 2:08 PM

SFC Joseph Scott — Thu, 22 Dec 2016 14:08:40 -0500

No they can not, not pen to paper but counseling is a leadership thing and if the intent of the Senior NCO is give some mentoring then yes, if done tactfully. Off subject, when I was a PV2 at my first duty station back in '88, I witnessed my then 1SG lock up a 2LT and chew him out. Funniest counseling session I witnessed up to that point in my young Infantry career. Most of our Senior NCO's were Vietnam Vets and they didn't play and had no tolerance for fools. Later on when I was a SFC 18D, I witnessed a CSM at the school house chew out a MAJ, less funny, more awkward.

Response by SFC Rick H made Feb 6 at 2017 9:54 AM

SFC Rick H — Mon, 06 Feb 2017 09:54:54 -0500

Would this be before chief locks his heals or after he lets him walk away? No, a CW4 outranks an E7... done deal.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made May 12 at 2017 2:13 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Fri, 12 May 2017 14:13:14 -0400

an NCO can conduct developmental counseling with any Soldier provided that it is done in a professional development manner from the standpoint of a subject matter expert, or if that NCO is operating on the delegated authority of an officer / is put in the role as a supervisor or trainer due to their expertise and experience within the field. there is no regulation that I have seen that states that developmental counseling goes strictly downhill.

Response by MCPO Roger Collins made Jun 25 at 2017 11:44 AM

MCPO Roger Collins — Sun, 25 Jun 2017 11:44:43 -0400

Probably already answered, but I would say if he/she has balls the size of basketballs. I'd rather go up against an O-4 than a CWO-4.

Response by CW4 David Rocco made Jul 27 at 2017 9:21 PM

CW4 David Rocco — Thu, 27 Jul 2017 21:21:18 -0400

I used mine to light cigars

Response by SFC Paul Veillon made Aug 17 at 2017 6:35 AM

SFC Paul Veillon — Thu, 17 Aug 2017 06:35:43 -0400

Only if the SFC has a really good sense of humor.
I was counceled once as an SFC by a Marine CW3 never to use SIR in the place of MFer towards him, not the same thing but still funny

Response by CW4 Juan Cadiz made Aug 21 at 2017 2:08 PM

CW4 Juan Cadiz — Mon, 21 Aug 2017 14:08:51 -0400

Are you serious!

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2017 9:51 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Sep 2017 21:51:13 -0400

I have to agree with the major even though the officer out ranks the SFC under the guidance given under the authority of the WTU command all those who are accepted into the WTU sign a counseling stating that their medical care will be facilitated by a SSG or SFC and that enlisted soldier is responsible for their well being... if the enlisted soldier gives the officer a counseling then It was authorized by the command

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Sep 17 at 2017 10:08 PM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Sun, 17 Sep 2017 22:08:31 -0400

Why would anyone even ask that question ? Last time I checked any Warrant Officer from W1 to W5 outranks any NCO. You don't counsel people that outrank You. If that's not enough try to counsel a Colonel and see how far that gets You ! I would hope there aren't anyone that has the rank of E7 that would even think of doing that, it would take stupid to a whole new level. To put it in simple terms, NO He cannot !

Response by 1SG Private RallyPoint Member made Sep 17 at 2017 11:36 PM

1SG Private RallyPoint Member — Sun, 17 Sep 2017 23:36:05 -0400

The thing I am noticing in almost all of these responses is that everyone is assuming that the counseling in reference is negative. Its a shame that is the first place all these leaders go to. A counseling could be informative as well and it could be delegated to that person to do it.

I will use the main example I can think of. I work in NETCOM, so a GO command. My company commander is of course a CPT. We have many officer's that ride motorcycles. Part of the motorcycle mentor program is receiving counseling from the company commander. I 100% sure that if one of those Senior Officer's got into some trouble for lets say riding without a helmet that counseling would be a legal enough document to justify throwing the book at them.

Counselings have become a form of corrective training. So if you ask me can an E7 provide corrective training to a CW4 my answer is no. Ask me can and E7 counsel a CW4 my answer is in the right situation absolutely.

Response by SFC Scott Teague made Oct 9 at 2017 7:26 PM

SFC Scott Teague — Mon, 09 Oct 2017 19:26:26 -0400

I don't see why not, wouldn't be worth crap except for information purposes though. An SFC isn't in his/her CoC.

Response by SMSgt Lawrence McCarter made Oct 10 at 2017 8:58 AM

SMSgt Lawrence McCarter — Tue, 10 Oct 2017 08:58:51 -0400

NO, how can He do that ? Reality a W4 still outranks Him !

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Oct 18 at 2017 3:43 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 18 Oct 2017 15:43:04 -0400

Chief no they can't anybody that is the same rank or higher that would be like a sergeant giving a Sergeant's major one it's just not the way it works

Response by CW5 Ranger Dave made Oct 28 at 2017 9:03 AM

CW5 Ranger Dave — Sat, 28 Oct 2017 09:03:56 -0400

What was the song in the movie "MASH"-Suicide is Painless?

Response by SFC Wendell Pruitt made Jul 8 at 2021 2:54 PM

SFC Wendell Pruitt — Thu, 08 Jul 2021 14:54:57 -0400

As an SFC I found myself in a position to advise a CW4 in some very specific things on one or two occasions, But it was never in writing and it was also in proper context of filling in a blank in the CW4's perception of what was before him at that point since he arrived well after things had began. If He chose to continue on his chosen path I simply adjusted to what he wanted and continued to roll to mission complete..... If asked by anyone higher after the fact, I stated I had advised based on the situation I knew and the Chief chose his direction and I adjusted to meet his requirements of me and my soldiers..... Counseling a CW4 I would rather attempt to bathe a Bobcat !!!!