Can an NCO force a service member to miss an appointment out of punishment/corrective training?

SPC John McDuffie — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 05:32:00 -0400

Question / Scenario: I've skimmed through some regulation and I can't seem to find anything that directly relates to an appointment reg.
The Soldier had an appointment early in the morning at a location off post as part of their transition process out of the Army. The NCO and the soldier agreed on a plan of action that the soldier would show up in the morning and report for accountability and then leave to their appointment. The Soldier that morning over slept and missed formation. Contact was established in which the soldier confirmed they were alive and safe. During the phone call the NCO stated, "that as the soldiers NCO he [the NCO] doesn't have to let the soldier attend their appointment. The soldier told the NCO, "that if he did stop him from going to his appointment because he overslept that he would go to legal assistance.". The NCO did hold the soldier over and forced the soldier to go to work instead of their appointment. My question to the community is, “is this a over reach in an NCO's powers?”. I believe there was no corrective training administered, just a punishment; taking away a soldiers appointment only because they accidentally overslept. These two events do not correlate except as being part of a plan of events that were established for the day. I've found hints that state the command can request or change an appointment or surgery time if it were to negatively effect the mission. I haven't found anywhere that more or less states that a NCO has the authority to punish/correctively train a soldier by revoking their appointments. I have read 27-1/ 600-20 that outline how corrective training will be within the lines of the offense committed. I disagree with the NCO and believe that it's outside the scopes of the NCOs power and this is an issue that a commander would have to decide. He believes it has to do with accountability, that if you can't make it to formation then he you can't make it to your appointment. Which accountability being the number one thing a NCO is responsible for, a NCO can cancel an appointment for a soldier as a punishment/corrective training. I think the soldier should have been punished for over sleeping. I.E. Calling 20 min before formation to confirm they are awake, having to show up 15-20 min earlier than normal, or showing up for a early accountability formation over the weekend. These are examples of corrective training for the incident that occurred. In this incident the Soldier also has no other counselings that mention them having a previous issue with being late or missing formations. What does the Rally Point community think about this?

UPDATE:

The soldier showed me his 4856 today and it mentions how he apologized and was attempting to make it to the formation even though he knew he was already late. Also, first attempted contact to reach the SM was 30 min after formation. (When I had soldiers, I was calling them 5 min before formation if they weren't there. (I thought that was kind of strange))

The SM also went really deep overboard and threatened the Chain of command with a congressional inquiry. He told me that [along these lines I don't remember verbatim], "I have a spotless record here, I make one mistake that I apologized for and took ownership and my NCO threatens to stop my entire employment separation because he wants to flex his chest at me." (I do not agree with this, this is jumping many many many people in the chain and not using a checks and balances system properly)

The CoC has backed down. The Soldier has <30 days left in the Army and pressing any charges will seem to cause more damage for the CoC and soldier.

UPDATE2: Forgot to put this in the other update. The Soldier doesn't belong to this command. The SM is on a detail until they transition out. There was no 4187 or appointment orders placing him under the commander that he's on a detail for. I don't know if that plays a factor or not, can a more senior person help me on this?

Response by PO1 John Miller made Aug 8 at 2015 5:35 AM

PO1 John Miller — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 05:35:40 -0400

I would have to say that the NCO was abusing their power and is in the wrong. They could have done as you suggested, some type of corrective training. But to cause a Joe to miss an appointment out of what appears to be spite is just wrong.

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 5:42 AM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 05:42:16 -0400

Yes that was wrong for the NCO to make the SM miss their appointment. What he should have done, since this was probably not he first time this soldier missed formation, was write a counseling statement and recommend the soldier for punitive action. That is what I would have done.

Response by CSM Michael J. Uhlig made Aug 8 at 2015 5:54 AM

CSM Michael J. Uhlig — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 05:54:45 -0400

The simple answer is No "BUT".....is it mandatory, is it something elective, does it interfere with mission accomplishment and etc.....based on the situation, I believe the unit was trying to help the Soldier out here but there was an agreement that was broken between the Soldier and NCO and thus created a conflict...

SO, the Soldier & NCO agreed to a plan of action that the Soldier would show up in the morning for accountability. The Soldier oversleeps and is playing the victim card because the NCO insists that the Soldier reports as they both agreed?

There's a couple ways to look at this - the Soldier cannot make the appointment if the Soldier cannot make accountability formation.....it is the NCO that is going to get squashed when the Soldier shows up unshaved, unshowered and/or unprepared.

Could the NCO have handled it differently, yes. He could have allowed the Soldier to make the appointment (assuming there was time to make it still), instructed the Soldier to report to work after the appointment and then handled business then (counseling with a plan of action to correct the piss poor performance).

Sounds to me that the Soldier decided to sleep in and go to the appointment, called the NCO to let him know he was alive and assumed he would be good.....what sucks about the situation is you cannot get the formation back, you will have always missed the formation and you cannot get the appointment time back as you've missed that as well. So, what has happened since the missed formation & missed appointment?

I'm curious to hear the Paul Harvey on this one.....the rest of the story.

Response by SSG Travis Puckett made Aug 8 at 2015 6:08 AM

SSG Travis Puckett — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 06:08:07 -0400

Yes, he can but he will have to explain his reasons to his chain of command. They will determine if it was justified.

Response by SSgt Alex Robinson made Aug 8 at 2015 8:00 AM

SSgt Alex Robinson — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 08:00:12 -0400

One thing you could have the soldier in question do is take leave if necessary to leave post.

Response by CW4 Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 9:50 AM

CW4 Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:50:06 -0400

Not if its medical or dental, but if its to get a car stereo installed or something in that nature where it doesn't cost the Soldier money or the Command headaches because the appointment was missed, then it is possible. Is right, probably not. The NCO probably needs to come up with a correction plan that is tailored around the units duty day and missions and also take into consideration any prior scheduled appointments or commitments made by the Soldier.

Response by SGT Roberto Mendoza-Diaz made Aug 8 at 2015 9:54 AM

SGT Roberto Mendoza-Diaz — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:54:43 -0400

As a retired NCO myself, I would have get the overslept Soldier and take him to his appointment and then back to work. Also I would write him up for missing formation. Done deal.

Response by SMSgt Tony Barnes made Aug 8 at 2015 9:57 AM

SMSgt Tony Barnes — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 09:57:03 -0400

First of all...an enlisted person has no authority to 'punish'...only a commander can punish. But, an NCO in charge of that soldier determines priorities for the mission. There is much we don't know about this scenario. Had the troop been a problem child who is getting lax on his way out? Did he really 'accidentally' oversleep?

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 10:38 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 10:38:31 -0400

Does any question the fact that there should be no programs (other than special appointments) that should interfere with accountability and PT in the morning. I agree with SMA Daily, that too many things are being scheduled during our "golden hour" of accountability and physical fitness. I don't care if you are retiring. The program is called "Soldier for Life" for a reason. Man, this fires me up. I think I'm going to make a survey question on this.

Response by 1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 8 at 2015 11:43 AM

1stSgt Private RallyPoint Member — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 11:43:30 -0400

Hard to respond with the generic description. What was the appointment for? What rank was the NCO? How far out from EAS was SNSM? Also, don't forget enlisted members do NOT have the authority to punish, only the Commander has that authority. Enlisted reinforces or supervises.

Response by SPC John McDuffie made Aug 8 at 2015 6:39 PM

SPC John McDuffie — Sat, 08 Aug 2015 18:39:42 -0400

PUT AN UPDATE INSIDE THE BODY OF THE ORIGINAL STATEMENT.

Response by SGT Michael Glenn made Aug 9 at 2015 4:07 PM

SGT Michael Glenn — Sun, 09 Aug 2015 16:07:05 -0400

Dont know about now but it depended on the appointment and the chain back when I was active duty. If you got along well with your chain most of the time the door was open for you to come and go as needed. If you were a problem soldier you were told to make your appointments after the duty day which most of the time was almost impossible and was the chains way of punishing a soldier, fail to make an appointment that was important and you got written up, fail 3 times and you received an article 15.I remember when my chain would not allow me to go to the IG to file a complaint about my chain telling me I had to do a survey on my missing TA-50. I got fed up and just went anyways and it wound up resulting in members of my chain getting busted for actually stealing the gear. I broke rank many times when I knew what was going on was wrong and morally incorrect, not to mention illegal.

Response by SPC Robert Patrick made Aug 10 at 2015 1:02 PM

SPC Robert Patrick — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 13:02:16 -0400

Battle, the answer is no especially if this is part of their SFL(old ACAP) process. So long as it is essential to their separation.

Response by SSG Richard Reilly made Aug 10 at 2015 3:07 PM

SSG Richard Reilly — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:07:33 -0400

Short answer. Yes. Any person in charge or you can order you to be at a specific location at a specific time, in a specific uniform. A good leader attemtps to work with you but duty comes first.

I would have you go to your appointment and then have you report to the CQ desk every hour your not at your appointment in a different uniform teaching you the importance of being on time and in the correct uniform...on your own time.

Response by MSgt Jim Wolverton made Aug 10 at 2015 3:19 PM

MSgt Jim Wolverton — Mon, 10 Aug 2015 15:19:13 -0400

No, if you have an appointment, you have an appointment. However, supervisors/members can and should schedule appointments to have the least impact on the mission during the duty day. If it is a mandatory appointment (anything that affects readiness), missing those should require permission from a SNCO/First Sergeant or above to miss and those individuals should in turn contact the appropriate agency and inform them of the absence and provide the justification. At least that's how it worked when I was still active, I had to approve it or the next person in the chain above me, such as my CMSgt or Commander.

Response by MSG Private RallyPoint Member made Aug 9 at 2017 4:31 AM

MSG Private RallyPoint Member — Wed, 09 Aug 2017 04:31:20 -0400

I had a problem with missed appointments in my platoon when I was a PSG. After verbal warnings/counselings and still getting blown off squad leaders started escorting all their Soldiers to appointments. After a month of that, no more missed appointments.

Response by SPC Mike Lake made Feb 12 at 2018 10:20 PM

SPC Mike Lake — Mon, 12 Feb 2018 22:20:29 -0500

Depends on the appt I would say if it was medical in nature No but if it's a lunch date with your hunny yes....

Response by SFC Private RallyPoint Member made Mar 5 at 2018 3:29 PM

SFC Private RallyPoint Member — Mon, 05 Mar 2018 15:29:09 -0500

I'm sorry, but i see this as poor leadership. Yes, the soldier missed formation, but positive contact was made. So of course there should be corrective training. But having him miss a medical appointment is not something that should not be taken lightly. Obviously, there was need for him to make the appointment in the first place. Also, missed appointments cost money. Missed appointments is one of the things that are tracked and relayed to the soldier's chain of command. Not to mention, this soldier is going through pre-separation, so those appointments are time sensitive. Bottom line, soldier should receive some sort of corrective training, but having him miss a medical appointment to prove a point is going to far.

Response by CPT William Jones made Mar 2 at 2020 10:41 AM

CPT William Jones — Mon, 02 Mar 2020 10:41:50 -0500

First what sort of appointment are we talking about. All are not the same. Was it a health one or maybe visit to jag or IG or was it something like putting stereo in car.

Response by CSM Jerry Weldon made Apr 11 at 2021 7:33 PM

CSM Jerry Weldon — Sun, 11 Apr 2021 19:33:38 -0400

there is always time after the appointment